Protestants, did Jesus Christ gave us a Church with authority?

[a_mirror_dimly]

Quite so!

Where do you disagree with what I’ve said, though?

Basically everything. That Jesus speaks to me alone, that my own understanding of scripture is infallible, that truth is relative. In fact I reread it because I didn’t realize at first just how much of a mockery it was, but I don’t think there was a single true statement in there about Protestant attitudes towards scripture, truth, or Biblical interpretation.

 

[guanophore]

I know of no passage in Scripture that says he can.

Since there is no evidence in Scripture that Timothy is married, or that Paul required him to become married and have children prior to appointing him to the bishopric, I guess both Paul an Timothy are out of order?

The same is true for Titus. We have no evidence that he is married and has children either!

What i see in this passage is Paul exhorting self control in relation to sexual passions. He uses himself as an example of one who has self control. Secondly in I Corinthians 9:5 he implies he does have a wife.

This is true, he does exhort that. In the course of his exhortations, he encourages everyone to remain in the state they were in when they were called to Christ.

" Are you bound to a wife? Do not seek to be free. Are you free from a wife? Do not seek a wife. 28 But if you marry, you do not sin, and if a virgin marries, she does not sin. Yet those who marry will experience distress in this life, and I would spare you that. 29 I mean, brothers and sisters, the appointed time has grown short; from now on, let even those who have wives be as though they had none…" 1 Cor 7:27-30

By golly, sounds like a celibate marriage!

i have no problem that he may have been a bishop later but its certainly not clear in Scripture that he was since Scripture never refers to him as such.

Timothy and Titus were appointed Bishops by Paul, and the “council of elders” by whom they were ordained.

Not so. There would not be much of a problem here if the Roman catholic church stops married men from being bishops for the mere fact they are married. This is the main issue and one that show the church in violation of the Scripture.

Such a formulation indicates that one believes Roman Catholic married men are on the road to become bishops, which they are not. A person cannot be “stopped” when they are not travelling in that direction in the first place!

I think the main issue, in addition to the fact that you don’t understand the scripture properly, is that you misunderstand the nature of Holy Orders, thinking it is a right. You also reject the authority of the Church, so why would the Church doing something you thought was wrong bother you?

 

[cazayoux]

I’ll admit that I don’t have the full answer on this one. If any fellow Catholic would like to jump in that would be helpful. But, I think that you would need dispensation from the bishop of Rome. Celibate priesthood is not an infallible doctrine of the Church, which means this can change at any time.

The Catholic Church in the East allows married men to become priests.
However, a priest cannot get married.
It’s the order of things, matrimony before holy orders is okay, but not the other way around.
So if that priest’s wife passes away, that priest is not allowed to remarry.

This is the same for deacons in the West (and East).

There have been many Episcopal priests that have converted to Catholicism and petitioned to be a Catholic priest and relieved of the vow of celibacy.
Some have been granted this dispensation.
My parish priest is one of them.

michel

 

[cazayoux]

Were not discussing marriage per se but what are the qualifications for a bishop. He is to be married and have children.

Actually, it says that a married man with children can be disqualified if he has not managed his household well.
This is an important distinction.

michel

 

[cfrancis]

Where do the Scriptures say single men are to be bishops?

Where does it say bishops must be married?

The passage in I Timothy 3 for example says nothing of polygamy, nor of being widowed. Rather it is saying that the qualifications would include a married man who has children and how well he manages his household. …Were not discussing marriage per se but what are the qualifications for a bishop. He is to be married and have children.

Here’s another Sacred Tradition - monogamy. Nowhere in the NT is polygamy outlawed and monogamy decreed.

And now you’ve added another extra-Scriptural qualification for being a bishop: children!!!

 

[cazayoux]

Were not discussing marriage per se but what are the qualifications for a bishop. He is to be married and have children.

You haven’t answered one of my questions.
A man is married, has children, then becomes a bishop.
When his wife dies, he is single again.
Is he now disqualified from his current bishopric?

michel

 

[justasking4]

You haven’t answered one of my questions.
A man is married, has children, then becomes a bishop.
When his wife dies, he is single again.
Is he now disqualified from his current bishopric?

michel

i don’t think so. Good question.

 

[justasking4]

cfrancis;4269050
]Where does it say bishops must be married?

I Timothy 3:2-5
2 An overseer, then, must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, temperate, prudent, respectable, hospitable, able to teach,
3 not addicted to wine or pugnacious, but gentle, peaceable, free from the love of money.
4 He must be one who manages his own household well, keeping his children under control with all dignity
5 (but if a man does not know how to manage his own household, how will he take care of the church of God?),

Here’s another Sacred Tradition - monogamy. Nowhere in the NT is polygamy outlawed and monogamy decreed.

Is this listed somewhere offically as a Sacred Tradition?

And now you’ve added another extra-Scriptural qualification for being a bishop: children!!!

Not so. I Timothy 3:4 He must be one who manages his own household well, keeping his children under control with all dignity

 

[justasking4]

Actually, it says that a married man with children can be disqualified if he has not managed his household well.
This is an important distinction.

michel

Paul is using marriage as a barometer on what kind of leader the man could be in the church. If in the process of being “tested” to become a bishop and it is found he has not managed his children well then i think he would be disqualified.

Do you think married men should be eligible to become bishops in the Roman Catholic church?

 

[guanophore]

Paul is using marriage as a barometer on what kind of leader the man could be in the church. If in the process of being “tested” to become a bishop and it is found he has not managed his children well then i think he would be disqualified.

There are other equally valid tests. Christ gave the authority to the Church to discern these things.

Do you think married men should be eligible to become bishops in the Roman Catholic church?

How is that related to the topic?

 

[justasking4]

guanophore;4269555]
Originally Posted by justasking4
Paul is using marriage as a barometer on what kind of leader the man could be in the church. If in the process of being “tested” to become a bishop and it is found he has not managed his children well then i think he would be disqualified.

guanophore
There are other equally valid tests. Christ gave the authority to the Church to discern these things.

It is true the church has authority. However no church has the authority to circumvent His word i.e. the Scriptures.

Quote:
Originally Posted by justasking4
Do you think married men should be eligible to become bishops in the Roman Catholic church?
guanophore
How is that related to the topic?

Goes back to authority. If this is going to change the only way it will in the Roman Catholic church would be because the church wills it so. The question is: will it go back to the biblical mandate or something else?

 

[cazayoux]

Paul is using marriage as a barometer on what kind of leader the man could be in the church. If in the process of being “tested” to become a bishop and it is found he has not managed his children well then i think he would be disqualified.

Actually … sounds as if you think Paul is using fatherhood as a barometer.
What of a married man without children?

Do you think married men should be eligible to become bishops in the Roman Catholic church?

My parish priest is married with children and grandchildren.
He converted with two other priests and dozens of families from the Episcopal Church.
He is the first to say that it is better for a priest to not be married.
As a married man his attentions are split between his family and God, just as Paul described. It is better for a priest to be able to give 100% of his focus to God.

michel

 

[M0nkey]

Paul is using marriage as a barometer on what kind of leader the man could be in the church.

Nonsense. Where is THAT in holy scripture.

The idea that St. Paul worshiped marriage this much shows no knowledge of who he was before his conversion.

St. Paul was a pharisee, one of the best, which would imply he HAD to be married. However, after his conversion his colleagues, best friends, and probably even his own wife left him thinking he had gone insane. Of course, very little is actually known of the life of Paul, but given the animosity between Christians and Jews at that time this would make sense.

 

[cazayoux]

It is true the church has authority. However no church has the authority to circumvent His word i.e. the Scriptures.

Admit you are fallible… I am.
Admit it is POSSIBLE that you might have the wrong understanding of scripture.

At this point, you can ask a Catholic WHY he believes what he does.
Good information for you, use it as you will.
You are not forced to believe the same way.

But you are in no position, being fallible and all, to tell me I’m wrong.
The most you can do is give the reason you believe the way you do.
Good information for me, I’ll use it as I want.
I am not forced to believe the same way.

With this out of the way, understand that your statements saying that the Catholic Church is circumventing YOUR UNDERSTANDING of His word is beyond presumptuous.

Feel free to explain your understanding of scripture, but please stop with the prejudice, slanted, broad statements about the Catholic Church.

michel

 

[justasking4]

M0nkey;4269587]
Originally Posted by justasking4 View Post
Paul is using marriage as a barometer on what kind of leader the man could be in the church.

M0nkey
Nonsense. Where is THAT in holy scripture.

I Timothy 3:4-5
4 He must be one who manages his own household well, keeping his children under control with all dignity
5 (but if a man does not know how to manage his own household, how will he take care of the church of God?),

The idea that St. Paul worshiped marriage this much shows no knowledge of who he was before his conversation.

St. Paul was a pharisee, one of the best, which would imply he HAD to be married. However, after his conversation his ccolleagues, best friends, and probably even his own wife left him thinking he had gone insane. Of course, very little is actually known of the life of Paul, but given the animosity between Christians and Jews at that time this would make sense.

 

[cazayoux]

I Timothy 3:4-5
4 He must be one who manages his own household well, keeping his children under control with all dignity
5 (but if a man does not know how to manage his own household, how will he take care of the church of God?),

So, by this, married isn’t enough.
Fatherhood is required for the bishopric.
Is this how you see it?

Can a married, childless man become a deacon?

michel

 

[justasking4]

cazayoux;4269611]
Originally Posted by justasking4 View Post
It is true the church has authority. However no church has the authority to circumvent His word i.e. the Scriptures.

cazayoux
Admit you are fallible… I am.
Admit it is POSSIBLE that you might have the wrong understanding of scripture.

Since no one is infallible except God then it would be incorrect to claim that i am. If i’m wrong about my interpretations then you are going to have show me why and give a superior interpretation of the texts in light of the context.

At this point, you can ask a Catholic WHY he believes what he does.
Good information for you, use it as you will.
You are not forced to believe the same way.

But you are in no position, being fallible and all, to tell me I’m wrong.
The most you can do is give the reason you believe the way you do.
Good information for me, I’ll use it as I want.
I am not force to believe the same way.

With this out of the way, understand that your statements saying that the Catholic Church is circumventing YOUR UNDERSTANDING of His word is beyond presumptuous.

I’m not being presumptuous but pointing out what the texts says in context. Its quite clear that married men are qualified to be bishops for example.

Feel free to explain your understanding of scripture, but please stop with the prejudice, slanted, broad statements about the Catholic Church

.
Why intelligent Catholics who can read and understand the Scriptures that allows married men to be bishops don’t challenge their leaders on this issue is shocking to say the least. My comments are not prejudiced or slanted. You can check the Scriptures yourself and see that i’m speaking the truth. I suspect it has more to do with following the authority of men instead of the Scriptures.

michel

 

[justasking4]

cazayoux;4269617]
So, by this, married isn’t enough.
Fatherhood is required for the bishopric.
Is this how you see it?

I think so.

Can a married, childless man become a deacon?

I don’t see the qualifications for being married with children as a requirement.

michel

 

[M0nkey]

I Timothy 3:4-5
4 He must be one who manages his own household well, keeping his children under control with all dignity
5 (but if a man does not know how to manage his own household, how will he take care of the church of God?)

Finally, it comes down to faith. I believe the CC is the one true Church Jesus began (with authority), you believe in your bible, which by the way was made the cannon of holy scripture by the CC.

Like I’ve said before, celibate priesthood / bishops is not an infallible teaching (or any teaching for that matter) and this can change at any point in time. Therefore, it doesn’t go against what’s scripture.

 

[justasking4]

Finally, it comes down to faith. I believe the CC is the one true Church Jesus began (with authority), you believe in your bible, which by the way was made the cannon of holy scripture by the CC.

Like I’ve said before, celibate priesthood / bishops is not an infallible teaching (or any teaching for that matter) and this can change at any point in time. Therefore, it doesn’t go against what’s scripture.

i honestly don’t know how you say this “doesn’t go against what’s scripture” when it is so clear in the Scriptures.