Protestants: Do You Believe in Free Will or the Monergism of Sola Gratia (by grace alone)?

[RickHolland]

God wants all men to be saved.

Obviously, at the end of our lives some go to heaven and some go to hell. But you know as well as I do that this is not relevant to our disagreement.

Matt 25

"He will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, **whatever you did not do **for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

46"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

 

[RickHolland]

Jesus is praying for his apostles. I suspect an intentional attempt to distort the clear meaning of the scriptures.

FYI: (in case you are just sincerely mistaken)

17Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth. 18As you sent me into the world, I have sent them into the world. 19For them I sanctify myself, that they too may be truly sanctified.

20"My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

These apostles are the Church. We are those who believe through THEIR message.

Hey 2nd ADAM

What do you think ole Chesterton is seeing when he reads verse 20? Especially the part that says “My prayer is not for them alone”!

Chesrterton, tell me you look at what you post. This is the greatest prayer for all believers, the greatest hope becase whatever the Son prays for He gets!!!

 

[RickHolland]

"2ndAdam:

Originally Posted by 2nd Adam
Does Catholic theology make a distinction of the various kinds of grace?

Yes.

2000 Sanctifying grace is an habitual gift, a stable and supernatural disposition that perfects the soul itself to enable it to live with God, to act by his love. Habitual grace, the permanent disposition to live and act in keeping with God’s call, is distinguished from actual graces which refer to God’s interventions, whether at the beginning of conversion or in the course of the work of sanctification.

Here is more for your reading pleasure: Always interesting reads:
newadvent.org/cathen/06689a.htm

 

[Contarini]

Johnson City, Kingsport or Bristol?

Hampton, actually. Or to be precise, ten miles out from Hampton toward Mountain City and Boone. Carter County, if Hampton doesn’t mean anything to you. The far side of Elizabethton (from the Tri-Cities).

Edwin

 

[RickHolland]

2ndAdam was proably much like I was; I couldn’t or had a hard time accepting the election and predestination and the paradox of free-will; but once embraced it gives a whole new level of appreciation and love for God that you didn’t even know existed. No wonder people are so eager for everyone to enjoy!
Reply With Quote

I’m having a hard time with it also, being raised catholic. Why would God allow free will, if we couldn’t choose or not choose him freely? Are you sure that just because you feel God’s call on your heart that you are automatically saved? Yes you have put on the pure garment and have been washed cleaned of your sins, because of Jesus’s sacrifice, but you are still in this world and in the same body which is dying every day, you aren’t living as a pure spirit as yet. Would the protestant mind-set automatically judge those who have not gotten God’s call, although have tried, that they will not be in eternity and so therefore not part of the elect? I would think if one believed that they were part of the elect, then they would feel secure in that knowledge, and very happy, but at the same time, very very sad that so many of those that they know and love won’t be going to the same place after death that they are. What then of those people? If God is Father, wouldn’t it make sense to ask the Father to also save your brother’s and sister’s? Doesn’t the Father want to give his children what they ask of Him? Catholic’s believe in prayer’s of petition for the soul’s of those that have died and also sacrifice to attain the hope of that soul going to heaven. I know Protestant’s don’t believe in purgatory, but it’s in the old testament somewhere that the Jew’s prayed for the dead. I know I’ve got a lot of rhetorical questions, but wanted you all to know I’m asking sincerely and without malice. This is a deep topic to me, and have just realized after reading this thread, how much this has been on my mind without exactly knowing what to call it.

Start a thread and title it something like “Election and free-will” or something and send invitations via PM to those you would like to hear more from.

In general, I cannot fully understand how God works this out. If you are part of the elect or not you pray for the souls of other people you care about and even those you don’t know very well or those that are blantently have no regard for God. The knowledge, understanding and joy that comes with acceptance of election is so great that it cannot be put into words. It make you appreciate Gods love all the more and makes you want to share everything more; especially the things of God. It is a blessing and a weak Christian will not receive that blessing; why? Because the weak one is either to new to receive it or a weak Christian may be walking in too much disobedience. It is the continual walk in obedience are the ones that seem to have the assurance that comes with it. However I do know some good Christians that cannot seem to “want to grasp it” for some reason.

We do not know who the elect are and if you are not one now, thne it is very possible the Holy Spirit has not blown your way. I will tell you to examine the first 2 beatitudes in Matthew 5 and then in light of Luke 18:13 and see if you have had been in the first 2 beatitudes and the seponse was like the Publican in Luke 18. This is the person that has dealt with their sin issure on God’s terms and not mans or religions terms.

Anyway, stsrt the thread in nonCatholic religions and send out the invitation.

God bless you!

rick

 

[RickHolland]

Hampton, actually. Or to be precise, ten miles out from Hampton toward Mountain City and Boone. Carter County, if Hampton doesn’t mean anything to you. The far side of Elizabethton (from the Tri-Cities).

Edwin

I dated a girl many years ago from Kingsport and went to ETSU; long time ago.

 

[RickHolland]

Hey everyone; i have had enough here in this thread; I don’t have anything else to add. If someone decides to starts a thread off of the topics that folks expressed more interest in, then please send me a PM with the link and I would be happy and prividged to join in.

Good night and everyone have a fantastic weekend!

rick

 

[2nd_Adam]

Hey 2nd ADAM

What do you think ole Chesterton is seeing when he reads verse 20? Especially the part that says “My prayer is not for them alone”!

Chesrterton, tell me you look at what you post. This is the greatest prayer for all believers, the greatest hope becase whatever the Son prays for He gets!!!

LOL… quite an exclusive prayer.

20"My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message,

 

[Contarini]

I dated a girl many years ago from Kingsport and went to ETSU; long time ago.

I went to Milligan College.

Edwin

 

[debgab]

Thanks Rick,
That’s a good idea to start a new thread on this subject, if I get a chance to do it today I will…
I would like to delve into this subject further.
Debbie:thumbsup:

 

[Anna_Scott]

The you have just admitted you reject what God has said.

Mt 24:22 "Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.

Mt 24:24 "For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect.

Mt 24:31 "And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER ***His elect ***from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

Mr 13:20 "Unless the Lord had shortened {those} days, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect, whom He chose, He shortened the days.

Mr 13:22 for false Christs and false prophets will arise, and will show signs and wonders, in order to lead astray, if possible, the elect.

Mr 13:27 "And then He will send forth the angels, and ***will gather together His elect ***from the four winds, from the farthest end of the earth to the farthest end of heaven.

Lu 18:7 now, ***will not God bring about justice for His elect ***who cry to Him day and night, and will He delay long over them?

Ro 8:33 Who will bring a charge against God’s elect? God is the one who justifies;

Mt 22:14 “For many are called, but few {are} chosen.”

Lu 12:32 "Do not be afraid, little flock, for ***your Father has chosen gladly to give you the kingdom. ***

Joh 13:18 "I do not speak of all of you. I know the ones I have chosen; but {it is} that the Scripture may be fulfilled, ‘HE WHO EATS MY BREAD HAS LIFTED UP HIS HEEL AGAINST ME.’

Ac 1:2 until the day when He was taken up {to heaven,} after He had by the Holy Spirit given orders to the apostles*** whom He had chosen***.

Ac 1:24 And they prayed and said, "You, Lord, who know the hearts of all men, show which one of these two You have chosen

Ac 9:15 But the Lord said to him, "Go, for he is a chosen instrument of Mine, to bear My name before the Gentiles and kings and the sons of Israel;

Ac 10:41 not to all the people, but to witnesses who were chosen beforehand by God, {that is,} to us who ate and drank with Him after He arose from the dead.

Ro 11:7 What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened;

1Co 1:27
but God has chosen the foolish things of the world to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to shame the things which are strong,

1Co 1:28
and the base things of the world and the despised God has chosen, the things that are not, so that He may nullify the things that are,

Col 3:12 So, as those who have been chosen of God, holy and beloved, put on a heart of compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience;

2Th 2:13 But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because*** God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation ***through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

1Ti 5:21 I solemnly charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus and of {His} chosen angels, to maintain these {principles} without bias, doing nothing in a {spirit of} partiality.

2Ti 2:10 For this reason I endure all things for the sake of those who are chosen, so that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus {and} with {it} eternal glory.

Tit 1:1 Paul, a bond-servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, for the ***faith of those chosen of God ***and the knowledge of the truth which is according to godliness,

1Pe 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who reside as aliens, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are chosen

1Pe 2:9 But you are A CHOSEN RACE, A royal PRIESTHOOD, A HOLY NATION, A PEOPLE FOR {God’s} OWN POSSESSION, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him ***who has called you out of darkness ***into His marvelous light;

1Pe 5:13 She who is in Babylon, ***chosen together ***with you, sends you greetings, and {so does} my son, Mark.

2Jo 1:1
The elder to the ***chosen lady ***and her children, whom I love in truth; and not only I, but also all who know the truth,

2Jo 1:13 The children of ***your chosen ***sister greet you.

Re 17:14 “These will wage war against the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, because He is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those who are with Him {are the} called and chosen and faithful.”

There are quite a few more along the same lines. How long will you continue to deny the word of God?

The N.T. does have much to say about the elect and the chosen.

In your opinion, what role does “free will” or “irresistible grace” play in whom God chooses as His elect?

Anna

 

[RickHolland]

The N.T. does have much to say about the elect and the chosen.

In your opinion, what role does “free will” or “irresistible grace” play in whom God chooses as His elect?

Anna

I’ve actually have thoought about that and have listened to some a sermon by Phil Johnson, that actually speaks of Calvinism and focuses on the soverneight of God. Phil Johnson us to be of the semi-pelegian camp and always resisted unconditional election. He was once told that the free-will worked like this: God gets a vote, Satan gets a vote and you make the deciding vote as to whom you will follow.

Then he makes a great analogy as to how God works in the heart. When you met your spouse, there wasn’t anything in particular that made him/her more or less better than any other choice, but you had an attraction based on what you saw and what you perceived. The attaction to your mate grew strong because you saw in them something special and desireable and you acted on that desire freely. God makes Himself so attractive to the elect that they cannot help but desire Him freely. To others He does not reveal that “attractiveness”; thus they chose no desire for Him.

I think in terms of my own relationship with God and how it came about and this is as good an anology as I can explain. God is so attractive that I cannot get close enough; very similar to that first love experinece growing up. Perhpas this was what Jesus was saying to the church in Ephesus “But I have {this} against you, that you have left your first love”

I have bookmarked the sermon if you would like the link; you can download and listen or listen online. Send me a PM if you want the link; it is very thought provoking.

God Bless!
rick

 

[2nd_Adam]

Phil Johnson is excellent. Here’s something by John Piper along the same lines in what Rick posted.

desiringgod.org/ResourceLibrary/articles/bydate/1985/1487_what_we_believe_about_the_five_points_of_calvinism/

What We Believe About the Five Points of Calvinism
Revised March, 1998

By Bethlehem Baptist Church Staff March 1, 1985

1.Preface
2.Historical Information
3.Total Depravity
4.Irresistible Grace
5.Limited Atonement
6.Unconditional Election
7.Perseverance of the Saints
8.Concluding Testimonies
9.A Final Appeal

1. Preface
   We love God. He is our great Treasure, and nothing can compare with him. One of the great old catechisms says, “God is a Spirit, infinite, eternal, and unchangeable, in his being, wisdom, power, holiness, justice, goodness, and truth.” That is the One we love. We love the whole panorama of his perfections. To know him and to be loved by him is the end of our soul’s quest for eternal satisfaction. He is infinite; and that answers to our longing for completeness. He is eternal; and that answers to our longing for permanence He is unchangeable; and that answers to our longing for stability and security. There is none like God. Nothing can compare with him. Money, sex, power, popularity, conquest - nothing can compare with God.

The more you know him, the more you want to know him. The more you feast on his fellowship, the hungrier you are for deeper, richer communion. Satisfaction at the deepest levels breeds a holy longing for the time when we will have the very power of God to love God. That’s the way Jesus prays for us to his Father, " . . . that the love with which You loved Me may be in them." That is what we long for: the very love the Father has for the Son filling us, enabling us to love the Son with the very love of the Father. Then the frustrations of inadequate love will be over.

Yes, the more you know him and love him and trust him, the more you long to know him. That is why we have written this booklet. We long to know God and enjoy God. Another great old catechism says, “What is the chief end of man?” And answers: “Man’s chief end is to glorify God and enjoy him for ever.” We believe that enjoying God is the way to glorify God, because God is most glorified in us when we are most satisfied in him. But to enjoy him we must know him. Seeing is savoring. If he remains a blurry, vague fog, we may be intrigued for a season. But we will not be stunned with joy, as when the fog clears and you find yourself on the brink of some vast precipice.

Our experience is that clear knowledge of God from the Bible is the kindling that sustains the fires of affection for God. And probably the most crucial kind of knowledge is the knowledge of what God is like in salvation. That is what the five points of Calvinism are about. We do not begin as Calvinists and defend a system. We begin as Bible-believing Christians who want to put the Bible above all systems of thought. But over the years - many years of struggle - we have deepened in our conviction that Calvinistic teachings on the five points are Biblical and therefore true.

Our own struggle makes us patient with others who are on the way. We believe that all the wrestling to understand what the Bible teaches about God is worth it. God is a rock of strength in a world of quicksand. To know him in his sovereignty is to become like an oak tree in the wind of adversity and confusion. And along with strength is sweetness and tenderness beyond imagination. The sovereign Lion of Judah is the sweet Lamb of God.

We hope you will be helped. (Click the link above to read the entire work)

 

[2nd_Adam]

Early Church Fathers appear to believe that we are saved by the will of God, and not by our own apparent free will.

Clement of Rome

“We also, being called through God’s will in Christ Jesus, are not justified through ourselves, neither through our own wisdom or understanding, or piety, or works which we have done in holiness or heart, but through faith” (Epistle to Corinthians).

Polycarp

"I know that through grace you are saved, not of works, but by the will of God, through Jesus Christ (Epistle of Philippians).

 

[Contarini]

Early Church Fathers appear to believe that we are saved by the will of God, and not by our own apparent free will.

Clement of Rome

“We also, being called through God’s will in Christ Jesus, are not justified through ourselves, neither through our own wisdom or understanding, or piety, or works which we have done in holiness or heart, but through faith” (Epistle to Corinthians).

Polycarp

"I know that through grace you are saved, not of works, but by the will of God, through Jesus Christ (Epistle of Philippians).

These are fairly brief and cryptic remarks with which I think no one would disagree. The early-19th-century Calvinist historian Joseph Milner argued that Clement and Polycarp still held to correct doctrine on these points but that the corruption started with Justin Martyr. It is clearly the case that Justin Martyr and most other early Christian theologians before Augustine believed very strongly in free will. I wouldn’t describe Clement and Polycarp as exceptions to this, but certainly you don’t find them speaking as explicitly on the subject, and if one starts with the assumption that Paul taught basically Calvinist doctrine (an assumption I find rather dubious at best), then it makes sense that Clement and Polycarp might be carrying on this teaching. So I don’t think Milner’s view is absurd even though I don’t share it.

Edwin

 

[2nd_Adam]

I believe the Apostle James settles the debate about salvation is by the will of God as comparison to the will of man…

Do not be deceived, my beloved brothers. Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights with whom there is no variation or shadow due to change. Of his own will he brought us forth by the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures…Come now, you who say, “Today or tomorrow we will go into such and such a town and spend a year there and trade and make a profit”— yet you do not know what tomorrow will bring. What is your life? For you are a mist that appears for a little time and then vanishes. Instead you ought to say, “If the Lord wills, we will live and do this or that.” As it is, you boast in your arrogance. All such boasting is evil. So whoever knows the right thing to do and fails to do it, for him it is sin - James

 

[2nd_Adam]

For those who believe that personal good works is necessary to enter Heaven, please tell me why God should let you into Heaven?

 

[RickHolland]

These are fairly brief and cryptic remarks with which I think no one would disagree. The early-19th-century Calvinist historian Joseph Milner argued that Clement and Polycarp still held to correct doctrine on these points but that the corruption started with Justin Martyr. It is clearly the case that Justin Martyr and most other early Christian theologians before Augustine believed very strongly in free will. I wouldn’t describe Clement and Polycarp as exceptions to this, but certainly you don’t find them speaking as explicitly on the subject, and if one starts with the assumption that Paul taught basically Calvinist doctrine (an assumption I find rather dubious at best), then it makes sense that Clement and Polycarp might be carrying on this teaching. So I don’t think Milner’s view is absurd even though I don’t share it.

Edwin

Eleonore Stump

There is an enormous scholarly literature on Augustine’s account of free will, and it is remarkable for the range of views it contains. Historians of philosophy read Augustine on free will so variously that it is sometimes difficult to believe they are reading the same texts. John Rist says: ‘There is still no consensus of opinion on Augustine’s view of each man’s responsibility for his moral behaviour . . . There are those who attribute to Augustine the full-blown Calvinist position that each man has no say in his ultimate destiny . . . Other interpreters reject this view in varying degrees. They will not hold that for Augustine man’s will is enslaved, or they would dispute about the sense in which it is enslaved and the sense in which it is free.’

Appears to depend on interpretaion and that depends on the camp…“nothing new under the sun all is vanity”

 

[Contarini]

Eleonore Stump

There is an enormous scholarly literature on Augustine’s account of free will, and it is remarkable for the range of views it contains. Historians of philosophy read Augustine on free will so variously that it is sometimes difficult to believe they are reading the same texts. John Rist says: ‘There is still no consensus of opinion on Augustine’s view of each man’s responsibility for his moral behaviour . . . There are those who attribute to Augustine the full-blown Calvinist position that each man has no say in his ultimate destiny . . . Other interpreters reject this view in varying degrees. They will not hold that for Augustine man’s will is enslaved, or they would dispute about the sense in which it is enslaved and the sense in which it is free.’

Appears to depend on interpretaion and that depends on the camp…“nothing new under the sun all is vanity”

I am not a relativist. The fact that people differ does not mean that there is not truth.

One of the reasons Augustine can be interpreted in such different ways is that he wrote quite differently about free will at different times. But to me Augustine’s later writings seem quite clear in teaching that the fallen human will cannot choose what is truly good without grace, and that those who are enabled by God’s grace will always respond to it by faith and good works, although without the additional grace of perseverance they will fall back into sin.

Augustine is also very clear in teaching to the end that humans do have free will. The question is: what does free will mean by the end of his life? That’s where things get complicated. He talks about free will as the ability to choose the good, so that the highest liberty would be the inability to sin. However, in his earlier writings he also gave a “libertarian” definition of free will, and the question is how far is later views modify that basic definition.

So sure, there are lots of points where there’s plenty of room for interpretation. But there’s also room for people–even very eminent scholars like Stump–to be wrong.

Let’s talk about the texts and not dismiss the issue just because scholars disagree.

Edwin

 

[2nd_Adam]

I am not a relativist. The fact that people differ does not mean that there is not truth.

One of the reasons Augustine can be interpreted in such different ways is that he wrote quite differently about free will at different times. But to me Augustine’s later writings seem quite clear in teaching that the fallen human will cannot choose what is truly good without grace, and that those who are enabled by God’s grace will always respond to it by faith and good works, although without the additional grace of perseverance they will fall back into sin.

Augustine is also very clear in teaching to the end that humans do have free will. The question is: what does free will mean by the end of his life? That’s where things get complicated. He talks about free will as the ability to choose the good, so that the highest liberty would be the inability to sin. However, in his earlier writings he also gave a “libertarian” definition of free will, and the question is how far is later views modify that basic definition.

So sure, there are lots of points where there’s plenty of room for interpretation. But there’s also room for people–even very eminent scholars like Stump–to be wrong.

Let’s talk about the texts and not dismiss the issue just because scholars disagree.

Edwin

Maybe too much emphasis is being put on Augustine instead of Scripture. There are practical implications of Calvinism such as giving God all the glory for salvation. Only a Calvinist’s understanding can boast that salvation is all of God.