Do you concede that you and I are those who believe through THEIR message, ie. the apostles?LOL… quite an exclusive prayer.
20"My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message,
If the Calvinist understanding is true, then God creates individuals expressly for eternal torment.Maybe too much emphasis is being put on Augustine instead of Scripture. There are practical implications of Calvinism such as giving God all the glory for salvation. Only a Calvinist’s understanding can boast that salvation is all of God.
This applies to all views, because God created each individual knowing beforehand if they would believe in Christ or not… prior to being born. God cannot learn new things, for He knew who would believe in Christ in an effectual way. The real question has to do with who is the cause of those who believe onto eternal life, man or God, or in your case man and God (synergestic). Give God all the glory for what He has done for a wretched sinner like me and you; therefore we can praise Him for His amazing grace. There is nothing amazing about a grace that allows you to apostate.If the Calvinist understanding is true, then God creates individuals expressly for eternal torment.
They had no chance for salvation from the beginning of time.
Is this really what you think of God?
No it doesn’t.This applies to all views, because God created each individual knowing beforehand if they would believe in Christ or not… prior to being born. God cannot learn new things, for He knew who would believe in Christ in an effectual way. The real question has to do with who is the cause of those who believe onto eternal life, man or God, or in your case man and God (synergestic). Give God all the glory for what He has done for a wretched sinner like me and you; therefore we can praise Him for His amazing grace. There is nothing amazing about a grace that allows you to apostate.
History matters. The fact that no one interpreted Scripture in certain ways before Augustine is highly relevant. You can’t get away from Augustine.Maybe too much emphasis is being put on Augustine instead of Scripture.
If you see God in competition with the creatures He made, sure. If you believe with Irenaeus that human life is the glory of God, then the picture looks very different.There are practical implications of Calvinism such as giving God all the glory for salvation. Only a Calvinist’s understanding can boast that salvation is all of God.
CHESTERTONRULES:If the Calvinist understanding is true, then God creates individuals expressly for eternal torment.
They had no chance for salvation from the beginning of time.
Is this really what you think of God?
This applies to all views, because God created each individual knowing beforehand if they would believe in Christ or not… prior to being born. God cannot learn new things, for He knew who would believe in Christ in an effectual way. The real question has to do with who is the cause of those who believe onto eternal life, man or God, or in your case man and God (synergestic). Give God all the glory for what He has done for a wretched sinner like me and you; therefore we can praise Him for His amazing grace. There is nothing amazing about a grace that allows you to apostate.
I do believe that God wants all to be saved. The Scriptures tell us this.No it doesn’t.
The Catholic Church believes that God wants all men to be saved and come to a knowledge of the Truth.
Do you deny this?
God’s amazing grace allows us to conform to his will. It does not force us to conform.
Do you believe God has the ability to learn and is mutable? I think God would be completely just, glorious, and right if all mankind received what they deserved which is eternal damnation. Do you agree? If you go back to the biblical meaning of mercy and grace, we are asking that God grant us things that we do not deserve. What is the gospel of grace sister, and you begin to see what God has done in Christ as something glorious for His enemies and the wicked.CHESTERTONRULES:
I know your comments are in response to 2nd Adam’s post, but I would like to respond, as well.
Though I am a Christian in the Protestant Sector, I am not a Calvinist. I do believe in free will, and I do not believe this lifetime on earth is our only chance for salvation. I do pray for the souls of the departed.
You said, “If Calvinist understanding is true, then God creates individuals expressly for eternal torment.”
For me, this is the most important issue in the debate about free will vs. irresistible grace given only to the elect.
It is unimaginable that God would create mankind, with the intention of sending most of His creation to an eternity of torment in Hell. It is possible that this is true, but how could a loving God do such a thing? If this is true, then I truly wish I had never been born.
Imagine our friends and loved ones, who were not chosen as the elect, spending an eternity in Hell? How good would we feel about Heaven, knowing the fate of our loved ones? This is an unimaginable horror, and would make Heaven a Hell for me. Even with free will, an eternity of torment is a punishment beyond any crime ever committed on earth. I cannot comprehend a God who would do this. This is not the God I know in my heart.
(The definition of Hell is off topic, but I believe the wages of sin is death or annihilation, not eternal torment.)
We can debate the Scriptures and all the writings of the Church Fathers and Protestant Reformers (all very interesting & I am enjoying the discussion); but we cannot speak for the mind, intention, thoughts of God, with absolute certainty.
2nd Adam, you even said, “God cannot learn new things.” I hope you mean that God holds all knowledge for all eternity. Otherwise, you are insulting God and are on very dangerous ground.
I do believe that God wants all to be saved. The Scriptures tell us this.
If God desires that all be saved, and if Christ draws all men to Himself (as the Scriptures say); why would God not obtain that which He desires?
Christ asked the Father to forgive those who crucified Him. Did God answer that prayer or did He deny the prayer of His Holy Son?
Free will is far more complicated that what I can comprehend. It involves knowing God’s creation in a way that only God can know. At least, that is the way I see it.
Anna
CHESTERTONRULES:
I know your comments are in response to 2nd Adam’s post, but I would like to respond, as well.
Though I am a Christian in the Protestant Sector, I am not a Calvinist. I do believe in free will, and I do not believe this lifetime on earth is our only chance for salvation. I do pray for the souls of the departed.
You said, “If Calvinist understanding is true, then God creates individuals expressly for eternal torment.”
For me, this is the most important issue in the debate about free will vs. irresistible grace given only to the elect.
It is unimaginable that God would create mankind, with the intention of sending most of His creation to an eternity of torment in Hell. It is possible that this is true, but how could a loving God do such a thing? If this is true, then I truly wish I had never been born.
Imagine our friends and loved ones, who were not chosen as the elect, spending an eternity in Hell? How good would we feel about Heaven, knowing the fate of our loved ones? This is an unimaginable horror, and would make Heaven a Hell for me. Even with free will, an eternity of torment is a punishment beyond any crime ever committed on earth. I cannot comprehend a God who would do this. This is not the God I know in my heart.
(The definition of Hell is off topic, but I believe the wages of sin is death or annihilation, not eternal torment.)
We can debate the Scriptures and all the writings of the Church Fathers and Protestant Reformers (all very interesting & I am enjoying the discussion); but we cannot speak for the mind, intention, thoughts of God, with absolute certainty.
2nd Adam, you even said, “God cannot learn new things.” I hope you mean that God holds all knowledge for all eternity. Otherwise, you are insulting God and are on very dangerous ground.
I do believe that God wants all to be saved. The Scriptures tell us this.
If God desires that all be saved, and if Christ draws all men to Himself (as the Scriptures say); why would God not obtain that which He desires?
Christ asked the Father to forgive those who crucified Him. Did God answer that prayer or did He deny the prayer of His Holy Son?
Free will is far more complicated that what I can comprehend. It involves knowing God’s creation in a way that only God can know. At least, that is the way I see it.
Anna
Do you believe God has the ability to learn and is mutable?
2nd Adam, you said, “God cannot learn new things.”
I responded by saying, “I hope you mean that God holds all knowledge for all eternity. Otherwise, you are insulting God and are on very dangerous ground.”
Now, you are asking if I believe God has the ability to learn and is mutable? You are the one who said, “God cannot learn new things.”
My response is still the same, “I hope you mean that God holds all knowledge for all eternity. Otherwise, you are insulting God and are on very dangerous ground.”
2nd Adam;5781782:
I agree that God is just, glorious, and merciful—which contradicts sentencing most of His creation to eternal torment or damnation.I think God would be completely just, glorious, and right if all mankind received what they deserved which is eternal damnation. Do you agree?
I agree that God is granting a salvation/eternal life that we do not deserve. We deserve to die without eternal life. We deserve death/annihilation, as the remainder of God’s creatures.If you go back to the biblical meaning of mercy and grace, we are asking that God grant us things that we do not deserve. What is the gospel of grace sister, and you begin to see what God has done in Christ as something glorious for His enemies and the wicked.
Romans 5:10
For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life.
You are missing my point entirely. I said, “It is unimaginable that God would create mankind, with the intention of sending most of His creation to an eternity of torment in Hell. It is possible that this is true, but how could a loving God do such a thing? If this is true, then I truly wish I had never been born.”
Are you O.K. with eternal damnation? Do you have compassion for those who do not make it into the circle of the elect; or would you just be glad you made it, forgetting about everyone else?
Remember, we are called to love God, and to love our fellowman as we love ourselves.
I said, “Imagine our friends and loved ones, who were not chosen as the elect, spending an eternity in Hell? How good would we feel about Heaven, knowing the fate of our loved ones? This is an unimaginable horror, and would make Heaven a Hell for me. Even with free will, an eternity of torment is a punishment beyond any crime ever committed on earth. I cannot comprehend a God who would do this. This is not the God I know in my heart.”
Isn’t God’s love and mercy greater than mine? I could not condemn someone to an eternity of torment, and I am certain God’s mercy is greater than mine.
You, also, did not respond to the following:
I stated, “Free will is far more complicated than what I can comprehend. It involves knowing God’s creation in a way that only God can know.”
- If God desires that all be saved, and if Christ draws all men to Himself (as the Scriptures say); why would God not obtain that which He desires?
- Christ asked the Father to forgive those who crucified Him. Did God answer that prayer or did He deny the prayer of His Holy Son?
We are attributing human attributes to an infinite God. We really do not have words to describe an infinite God, much less claim to know His “thoughts,” thoughts being a human attribute.
- Do you claim to know the truth about free will and grace with absolute certainty? Do you know the thoughts of God?
We can study Scripture and the Church Fathers and prayerfully seek God’s truth, asking for the discernment of the Holy Spirit. Yet, we are still human, with the inability to fully comprehend the infinite.
I certainly cannot answer that for myself with absolute certainty.
- How do you know that when you stand before Christ, He will not say, “I know you not”?
Anna
Anna Scott;5782091:
Question for 2nd Adam:
Do you think the Fall was a surprise to God?
2nd Adam;5782234:
Of course not. However, we have to stand firm in biblical revelation that God is light, that in Him there is no darkness at all. We don’t know why God allowed Adam and Eve to fall, but we know God is glorified through a cosmic rebelliion against Him. God demonstrated His love for us, in that while we were still sinners… Christ died for us. Without the fall,we would not know the love of God as revealed in the gospel in the same way as fallen redeemed creatures. God is never the author of evil. If you think God is all powerful, all Christians have quite the dilemma of the begining of evil… both Catholics and Reformed Christians alike. Please wrestle with this revelation from above.Question for 2nd Adam:
Do you think the Fall was a surprise to God?
So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.
You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory—
The Word of God
CHESTERTONRULES;5782739:
So the assumption by Calvinists that the Fall changed God’s plan is false.Of course not. However, we have to stand firm in biblical revelation that God is light, that in Him there is no darkness at all.
God knew that humans were incapable of being sinless.
However, through grace he gives all human beings the opportunity to accept him.
Some do, and some don’t, but God wants all of us to choose him.
If we don’t reach heaven, it is because we choose to reject God, not because he chose to reject us.
2nd Adam;5782841:
What was God’s plan that was changed? Christ is the lamb slain before the foundation of the world. And the Elect were chosen before the foundation of the world. Remember my presupposition, that it is impossible for God to learn because He knows all things before they happen.So the assumption by Calvinists that the Fall changed God’s plan is false.
God knew that humans were incapable of being sinless.
However, through grace he gives all human beings the opportunity to accept him.
Some do, and some don’t, but God wants all of us to choose him.
If we don’t reach heaven, it is because we choose to reject God, not because he chose to reject us.
Spiritual Blessings in Christ
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us [2] for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8 which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight 9 making known [3] to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ 10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.
11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, 12 so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory. 13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is the guarantee [4] of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, [5] to the praise of his glory.
CHESTERTONRULES;5782911:
You reject the crystal clear words of scripture that God wants all men to be saved.What was God’s plan that was changed? Christ is the lamb slain before the foundation of the world. And the Elect were chosen before the foundation of the world. Remember my presupposition, that it is impossible for God to learn because He knows all things before they happen.
.
You reject that we have all been made alive in Christ.
You reject that God wants the sinner to turn from his wicked ways and repent.
You believe that God wants, by design, to send some people to hell for nothing more than following the natures that he gave them.
2nd Adam;5782969:
You reject that we have all been made alive in Christ. Not all have been made alive in Christ. I don’t think this is a Catholic doctrine. Your statement could be heretical in Catholic standards.You reject the crystal clear words of scripture that God wants all men to be saved. Not a true statement of my belief. I agree that God desires all men to be saved.
You reject that God wants the sinner to turn from his wicked ways and repent. God does not desire a rebellious creature, and commands everyone everywhere to repent and turn back to His rule.
You believe that God wants, by design, to send some people to hell for nothing more than following the natures that he gave them. God did not give them a fallen nature. Adam is our federal head, when he disobeyed… we all fell with Adam. I think your view may not be Catholic here either.
Originally Posted by 2nd Adam
Then why would he fail to give all men sufficient grace for salvation, as your dogma proclaims?Not a true statement of my belief. I agree that God desires all men to be saved.
It is biblical and consistent with Catholic teaching:Not all have been made alive in Christ. I don’t think this is a Catholic doctrine. Your statement could be heretical in Catholic standards.
From the Catechism:
1741 Liberation and salvation. By his glorious Cross Christ has won salvation for all men. He redeemed them from the sin that held them in bondage. "For freedom Christ has set us free."34
From the bible:
For since death came through a human being, the resurrection of the dead has also come through a human being; for as all die in Adam, so all will be made alive in Christ.
1Cor. 15:21-22
Therefore just as one man’s trespass led to condemnation for all, so one man’s act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all. Rom. 5:18
For God has imprisoned all in disobedience so that he may be merciful to all.
Rom 11:32
He desires that we repent, ALL of us, and he gives all men the ability to do just that.God does not desire a rebellious creature, and commands everyone everywhere to repent and turn back to His rule.
You claimed that the Fall was not a surprise to God. In fact, it is part of his plan of creation. Therefore, God’s plan includes the creation of our natures as impacted by the Fall. God gave us this nature by design.God did not give them a fallen nature. Adam is our federal head, when he disobeyed… we all fell with Adam. I think your view may not be Catholic here either.
Praise God, however, that his design also includes his grace!
1741 Liberation and salvation. By his glorious Cross Christ has won salvation for all men. He redeemed them from the sin that held them in bondage. "For freedom Christ has set us free."34 In him we have communion with the "truth that makes us free."35 The Holy Spirit has been given to us and, as the Apostle teaches, "Where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom."36 Already we glory in the "liberty of the children of God."37
1742 Freedom and grace. The grace of Christ is not in the slightest way a rival of our freedom when this freedom accords with the sense of the true and the good that God has put in the human heart. On the contrary, as Christian experience attests especially in prayer, the more docile we are to the promptings of grace, the more we grow in inner freedom and confidence during trials, such as those we face in the pressures and constraints of the outer world. By the working of grace the Holy Spirit educates us in spiritual freedom in order to make us free collaborators in his work in the Church and in the world:
Almighty and merciful God,
in your goodness take away from us all that is harmful,
so that, made ready both in mind and body,
we may freely accomplish your will.38
You reject that we have all been made alive in Christ.
CHESTERTONRULES;5782994:
Did God ordain Adam’s fall or only foreknow it?God did not give them a fallen nature. Adam is our federal head, when he disobeyed
Edwin
2nd Adam;5783018:
That is a difficult one that I cannot answer. The origin of evil is quite the mystery. How do you think rebellion entered this creation with the fall of Satan? I think we need to go beyond the fall of Adam and start with the fall of Satan and the fallen angels. We know the elect angels did not fall.Did God ordain Adam’s fall or only foreknow it?
Edwin
1 Timothy 5:21
In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus and of the elect angels I charge you to keep these rules without prejudging, doing nothing from partiality.