Protestants: Do You Believe in Free Will or the Monergism of Sola Gratia (by grace alone)?

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If you persistently disobey Jesus than you do not love Him. If you do not love God, than you will not be in Heaven. I think you are confused between different schools of thought of Protestantism. We have the Charles Finney camp of easy believism, decisional regeneration, altar calls and sinners prayers, with no need of progressive Lordship. And the other Protestant camp is the Lordship camp which is Reformed and others too. If you are able to understand the difference, our conversations would make more sense.

Do you see the works of the law to be the 10 commandments? If so, do you agree in the summary of Jesus of the two greatest commandments?
The law is much more than the 10 commandments.

Jesus said that it is not what goes into a man that makes him unclean, but what comes out.

Paul was addressing those who felt that it was necessary to comply with the Jewish law.

Paul never made good works optional.

Question for you:

Is obedience an act of will?
 
You really should blot out the title you claim in your profile. There is nothing more deceptive like one who makes the claim but only in name; you are very easy to discern and a phony as I see it. Rhetoric and no substance when it comes to discerning the word of God, yet you make the claim of Christian. Your words and understanding prove otherwise. Try not to get confused between condemning and discerning; condemnation is the sole work of God as well.
Contarini

I apologize for saying this; uncalled for as I see it. Disrespectful as well; just because I disagree with someone does not give me a license to put someone down for their beliefs.
 
The law is much more than the 10 commandments.

Jesus said that it is not what goes into a man that makes him unclean, but what comes out.

Paul was addressing those who felt that it was necessary to comply with the Jewish law.

Paul never made good works optional.

Question for you:

Is obedience an act of will?
For you were called to freedom, brothers. Only do not use your freedom as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. For the whole law is fulfilled in one word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” But if you bite and devour one another, watch out that you are not consumed by one another. - Paul
 
For you were called to freedom, brothers. Only do not use your freedom as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. For the whole law is fulfilled in one word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” But if you bite and devour one another, watch out that you are not consumed by one another. - Paul
I agree. We are called to serve one another with the help of God’s grace.

You didn’t answer the question:

Is obedience an act of will?
 
LOL! Only if you count just Protestants.

Arminians do need to acknowledge their Catholic affinities. I have no problem doing so.

Granted, the greatest *Western *theologians were Augustinian (though obviously not Calvinist in the case of the Catholics). But then there are the Greek Fathers: Irenaeus, Athanasius, Gregory of Nyssa. . . . I’ll put any of them up against all the Calvinists together in a heartbeat.

Paul and Augustine, of course, were not Calvinistic! There’s more to Calvinism than just predestination. What makes Calvinism heretical, or at least somewhat unorthodox, is the context in which you *put *the doctrine of predestination and the importance you give it in your soteriology.

Edwin
I think you have an unfair distortion on Calvinism as a systematic theology. The Five Points of Calvinism and Predestination are not the driving force of Calvinism. Rather, Calvinism is about the glory of God. Calvinists do not make a Calvinist’s understanding of predestination a requirment for salvation. Christians who are Arminians on this side of glory will make it to Heaven. However, once they are on the other side of glory, they will all become Calvinists!

Calvinism:

What is the chief end of man?

The chief end of man is to glorify God and enjoy Him forever.

LOL… btw… Charles Spurgeon would argue that Paul and Augustine were Calvinists!

“The old truth that Calvin preached, that Augustine preached, that Paul preached, is the truth that I must preach to-day, or else be false to my conscience and my God. I cannot shape the truth; I know of no such thing as paring off the rough edges of a doctrine. John Knox’s gospel is my gospel. That which thundered through Scotland must thunder through England again.”—C. H. Spurgeon

The Apostle John and Apostle Paul were defintely staunch Calvinists. 😉 And of course, we know Jesus clearly taught the truths of Calvinism. 🙂
 
I agree. We are called to serve one another with the help of God’s grace.

You didn’t answer the question:

Is obedience an act of will?
Please let me help you understand historic Protestantism. Justification is a monogestic act. After conversion, sanctification is a synergistic act between God and man. We are called to obey through the power of the Spirit which we also choose to obey.
 
It is interesting to see so many different views regarding free will, grace, irresistible grace, predestination, and how these things work to bring about salvation.

After 2000 years, Christians still cannot agree.
Catholics think they have it right.
Protestants think they have it right, but not by unanimous agreement. Each Protestant group thinks they have it right.

Ironically, Jesus died for our sins. Without Christ, we have no salvation; yet Calvin’s name (and others) is mentioned far more often than that of our Savior.

I think we forget that those outside Christianity, may look at Christendom as a whole.

I am beginning to understand why so few Jews convert to Christianity.

OP-Anna
 
You avoided the simple yes or no question, so I will ask it again. If God left all the sinners on that side of the River of Death; would He be justified in doing so? Yes or No

Yes, he would be justified in doing so because he is God, and as God he can choose to destroy us. We are nothing more than a part of his creation, but even so, a special creation, because we were made in his very likeness and image, with the possibility given to us through his grace and sacrifice to love him back.
His desire to show us his love, went to an extreme, He sacrificed his only Son.
That’s a lot of mercy shown for us; hard for us to understand, and a daily task to believe with our limited hearts and minds. We show him our love through obedience, by love of our neighbor, compassion for the poor, and vigilance to do what’s right by obeying his commandments, and these are not easy things to do, but enduring hard things makes us small like a child, and as a child, we come to him as our Father. There would be no point, in my mind, for us to bother with him at all if he didn’t have mercy for us, that is the whole point of mercy, it’s for people who are working at something but fall/fail. If you believe you are already elected to be saved, would you believe the Father already loves you, but doesn’t love other’s who don’t love him? I think the Father loves his entire family and desires all of us to be saved and ***will do everything to call us back to him ***up to the very last minute. Do we get to want the love of the Father and in return we will be saved? or does he put it into us to want to love him, and only then we are saved? Like an earthly father who’s son/daughter disregards him, he never stops loving him/her and never gives up on the hope that he/she will come back to him. He’s always calling us, ready to forgive us even up to the last moment of life on earth all who are baptized in Jesus’s name. I also ***believe in purgatory as a means of a final purification ***before we can see Him, and so think this can be accomplished thru suffering here on earth, this makes us small and malleable, another way he continues to call us. Regarding the talk of the Elect, doesn’t the bible say even the Elect would be deceived by the anti-Christ. Since that is the case, mercy would have to be shown to them so they could re-attain their salvation, but in my mind and my understanding, the Elect are all those who have been baptized. Maybe most of you are right though, that the Elect are a certain number of people that God knows will be in eternity with him no matter what, but maybe for the vast majority, grace is given for the opportunity to attain eternity; **working at it with obedience, discipline and faith. **Sincerely,
Debbie
Thank you for taking the time to answer the question; the point is that God is just in allowing all to go to hell because all have fallen short of His glory and His righteous standards; therefore He is just to allow all to perish into eternal hell, separation from Himself. His mercy is demonstrated in that He allowed a few to cross over the River of Death to be with Him for eternity. The question of free-will comes to play because we are condemned for rejecting the Son; our responsibility; yet He chose before the foundation of the world an election of humanity to be given to His Son. (Eph 1:4) (Eph 1:11)How is it that we have free-will and yet God’s sovereighty appears to override that free-will? Our free-will is limited; basically to sin as far as God views it. Unless God moves a persons heart to repent and drawl to Him; we would never on our own chose Him. There are many people who believe they have chosen HIm only to find out “many will so to me Lord Lord and I will say depart from me I never knew you” (paraphrased - Jesus talking to people who claim they know God) So what is the difference? The people who know God; know His will and know His Word and are empowered by the Holy Spirit to both know and to do.

The areas I hightlighted above are principles you adhere to that are not found in Scripture and may be enough to be another gospel. I only mention that so you might search the Bible to see if these things are correct or not.
 
It is interesting to see so many different views regarding free will, grace, irresistible grace, predestination, and how these things work to bring about salvation.

After 2000 years, Christians still cannot agree.
Catholics think they have it right.
Protestants think they have it right, but not by unanimous agreement. Each Protestant group thinks they have it right.

Ironically, Jesus died for our sins. Without Christ, we have no salvation; yet Calvin’s name (and others) is mentioned far more often than that of our Savior.

I think we forget that those outside Christianity, may look at Christendom as a whole.

I am beginning to understand why so few Jews convert to Christianity.

OP-Anna
Oh come on… do you think jews do not convert to Christianity because of us?

Romans 11

The Remnant of Israel

11:1 I ask, then, has God rejected his people? By no means! For I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, [1] a member of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. Do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he appeals to God against Israel? 3 “Lord, they have killed your prophets, they have demolished your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life.” 4 But what is God’s reply to him? “I have kept for myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” 5 So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. 6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.

7 What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened, 8 as it is written,

“God gave them a spirit of stupor,
eyes that would not see
and ears that would not hear,
down to this very day.”

9 And David says,

“Let their table become a snare and a trap,
a stumbling block and a retribution for them;
10 let their eyes be darkened so that they cannot see,
and bend their backs forever.”

Gentiles Grafted In

11 So I ask, did they stumble in order that they might fall? By no means! Rather through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous. 12 Now if their trespass means riches for the world, and if their failure means riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their full inclusion [2] mean!

13 Now I am speaking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry 14 in order somehow to make my fellow Jews jealous, and thus save some of them. 15 For if their rejection means the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead? 16 If the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, so is the whole lump, and if the root is holy, so are the branches.

17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root [3] of the olive tree, 18 do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you. 19 Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. 22 Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off. 23 And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, the natural branches, be grafted back into their own olive tree.

The Mystery of Israel’s Salvation

25 Lest you be wise in your own sight, I want you to understand this mystery, brothers: [4] a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written,

“The Deliverer will come from Zion,
he will banish ungodliness from Jacob”;
27 “and this will be my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.”

28 As regards the gospel, they are enemies of God for your sake. But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30 For just as you were at one time disobedient to God but now have received mercy because of their disobedience, 31 so they too have now been disobedient in order that by the mercy shown to you they also may now [5] receive mercy. 32 For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all.

33 Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways! - Paul
 
It’s amazing that you don’t think this applies to you:

Gal 6
Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. 9Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up. 10Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers.
Did I offend you in some personal manner; if so I apologize 🙂
 
I had to take a break from the forums. I see the posts are continuing and are very interesting.

As the OP, I appreciate all your contributions. I’ll keep following and jump in when I can.

Anna
Your signature; that is a wonderful quote and chuck full of theological realities. 👍
 
Hang in there Rick. You are my full brother in Jesus Christ, and you have my complete support. You have spoken the truth in love, and with gentleness and respect for the most part. The Catholics on here are just my seperated brothers, half brothers, step brothers… or something like that. Being on this site is not an easy thing to do. Keep on sharing the truth in love! 👍
 
Are you calling Paul a publican?

I don’t follow you.

Gal 6
Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows. 8The one who sows to please his sinful nature, from that nature will reap destruction; the one who sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. 9Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up. 10Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers.
You asked if Galatians applied to me; so I answered by showing you the verse that really applies to me. Also, I do agree that “reap & sow” applies to all, believer & nonbeliever.
 
Like many Calvinists, you seem unable to distinguish between following the works of the law and obeying Jesus. We are required to strive for obedience to Jesus.

Do you believe that you can persistently disobey Jesus and still go to heaven?
1 Corinthians 1:30 But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption,

I bet you are a Calvinist at heart. Let’s see
Do you pray for others that are lost? Why; God won’t influence their free-will.

Do you thank God in your prayers for your choosing Him or do you give Him 100% credit?
Why? don’t you deserve some credit for being wise enough to choose him; do you ever say I’m glad I chose Him, my poor neighbors- I’m so much smarter than they are.

"One week night, when I was sitting in the house of God, I was not thinking much about the preacher’s sermon, for I did not believe it. The thought struck me, “How did you come to be a Christian?” I sought the Lord. “But how did you come to seek the Lord?” The truth flashed across my mind in a moment - I should not have sought Him unless there had been some previous influence in my mind to make me seek Him. I prayed, thought I, but then I asked myself, How came I to pray? I was induced to pray by reading the Scriptures. How came I to read the Scriptures? I did read them, but what led me to do so? Then, in a moment, I saw that God was at the bottom of it all, and that He was the Author of my faith, and so the whole doctrine of grace opened up to me, and from that doctrine I have not departed to this day, and I desire to make my constant confession: “I ascribe my change wholly to God.”
[CH Spurgeon: Defense of Calvinism]
 
Oh come on… do you think jews do not convert to Christianity because of us?

Romans 11

The Remnant of Israel

11:1 I ask, then, has God rejected his people? By no means! For I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, [1] a member of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. Do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he appeals to God against Israel? 3 “Lord, they have killed your prophets, they have demolished your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life.” 4 But what is God’s reply to him? “I have kept for myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” 5 So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. 6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.

7 What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened, 8 as it is written,

“God gave them a spirit of stupor,
eyes that would not see
and ears that would not hear,
down to this very day.”

9 And David says,

“Let their table become a snare and a trap,
a stumbling block and a retribution for them;
10 let their eyes be darkened so that they cannot see,
and bend their backs forever.”

Gentiles Grafted In

11 So I ask, did they stumble in order that they might fall? By no means! Rather through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous. 12 Now if their trespass means riches for the world, and if their failure means riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their full inclusion [2] mean!

13 Now I am speaking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry 14 in order somehow to make my fellow Jews jealous, and thus save some of them. 15 For if their rejection means the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead? 16 If the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, so is the whole lump, and if the root is holy, so are the branches.

17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root [3] of the olive tree, 18 do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you. 19 Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. 22 Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off. 23 And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, the natural branches, be grafted back into their own olive tree.

The Mystery of Israel’s Salvation

25 Lest you be wise in your own sight, I want you to understand this mystery, brothers: [4] a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written,

“The Deliverer will come from Zion,
he will banish ungodliness from Jacob”;
27 “and this will be my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.”

28 As regards the gospel, they are enemies of God for your sake. But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30 For just as you were at one time disobedient to God but now have received mercy because of their disobedience, 31 so they too have now been disobedient in order that by the mercy shown to you they also may now [5] receive mercy. 32 For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all.

33 Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways! - Paul
2nd Adam:

I am very familiar with the passage.

How many books by Jewish authors have you read?

With how many people of the Jewish faith have you had serious discussions?

Christians are quick to tell other Christians why the Jews rejected Jesus; but I would guess that very few Christians ask the question directly to our Jewish friends. This would be a good topic for another Thread. I apologize for taking us off topic. I should know better; I am the OP on this Thread.

I was just pointing out the fact that, in 2000 years, Christendom is still far from being united on the issues of free will, grace, irresistible grace, and predestination in terms of salvation. Our 2000 years of bickering, has definitely had an impact on the way Christianity is viewed. Again, this would be a good topic for another Thread.

Anna

Anna
 
I think you have an unfair distortion on Calvinism as a systematic theology. The Five Points of Calvinism and Predestination are not the driving force of Calvinism.
I know that. However, Calvinist soteriology gives predestination a far more central role than it had ever had before. That is the truth behind the unfair distortion to which you refer. I don’t think I am guilty of that distortion. I know that there is a whole lot more to Reformed theology than predestination. But we are debating “monergism” and the classical Protestant doctrine of salvation. Predestination *is *central to the Reformed version of that doctrine.
Rather, Calvinism is about the glory of God.
Every version of historic Christian theology is about the glory of God. What makes Calvinism different is how they understand God’s glory and how they seek to promote and extol it. And that does lead Calvinists to put more of an emphasis on predestination than other Christians, even those (such as Augustinian/Thomist Catholics or Lutherans who follow Luther’s own views on this matter) who firmly believe in unconditional predestination.
LOL… btw… Charles Spurgeon would argue that Paul and Augustine were Calvinists!
I know he would. He did. Or rather, he didn’t really argue it. He just asserted it. He was very good at that. A great preacher, but that doesn’t make his arguments correct.

To claim that even Augustine was a Calvinist is hopelessly anachronistic. Augustine’s doctrine of baptism alone makes a sharp division between him and any version of Calvinism, even the most sacramental (because none of you can grant that baptism conveys regenerating grace, or you’d have to admit that not all the regenerate are elect and persevere).

Edwin
 
It is interesting to see so many different views regarding free will, grace, irresistible grace, predestination, and how these things work to bring about salvation.

After 2000 years, Christians still cannot agree.
Catholics think they have it right.
Protestants think they have it right, but not by unanimous agreement. Each Protestant group thinks they have it right.

Ironically, Jesus died for our sins. Without Christ, we have no salvation; yet Calvin’s name (and others) is mentioned far more often than that of our Savior.

I think we forget that those outside Christianity, may look at Christendom as a whole.

I am beginning to understand why so few Jews convert to Christianity.

OP-Anna
Paul speaking of the Jews-
14 But their minds were hardened; for until this very day at the reading of the old covenant the same veil remains unlifted, because it is removed in Christ. But to this day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their heart; but whenever a person turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.

Hopefully you have the clearest understanding as to why so few Jews are converted. 🙂
 
2nd Adam:

I am very familiar with the passage.

How many books by Jewish authors have you read?

With how many people of the Jewish faith have you had serious discussions?

Christians are quick to tell other Christians why the Jews rejected Jesus; but I would guess that very few Christians ask the question directly to our Jewish friends. This would be a good topic for another Thread. I apologize for taking us off topic. I should know better; I am the OP on this Thread.

I was just pointing out the fact that, in 2000 years, Christendom is still far from being united on the issues of free will, grace, irresistible grace, and predestination in terms of salvation. Our 2000 years of bickering, has definitely had an impact on the way Christianity is viewed. Again, this would be a good topic for another Thread.

Anna

Anna
No to worry; we won’t be united in faith on earth; the Bride has yet to be revealed; then all will be in one spirit and one truth; just as it is written.
 
I know that. However, Calvinist soteriology gives predestination a far more central role than it had ever had before. That is the truth behind the unfair distortion to which you refer. I don’t think I am guilty of that distortion. I know that there is a whole lot more to Reformed theology than predestination. But we are debating “monergism” and the classical Protestant doctrine of salvation. Predestination *is *central to the Reformed version of that doctrine.

Every version of historic Christian theology is about the glory of God. What makes Calvinism different is how they understand God’s glory and how they seek to promote and extol it. And that does lead Calvinists to put more of an emphasis on predestination than other Christians, even those (such as Augustinian/Thomist Catholics or Lutherans who follow Luther’s own views on this matter) who firmly believe in unconditional predestination.

I know he would. He did. Or rather, he didn’t really argue it. He just asserted it. He was very good at that. A great preacher, but that doesn’t make his arguments correct.

To claim that even Augustine was a Calvinist is hopelessly anachronistic. Augustine’s doctrine of baptism alone makes a sharp division between him and any version of Calvinism, even the most sacramental (because none of you can grant that baptism conveys regenerating grace, or you’d have to admit that not all the regenerate are elect and persevere).

Edwin
Edwin,

2ndAdam was proably much like I was; I couldn’t or had a hard time accepting the election and predestination and the paradox of free-will; but once embraced it gives a whole new level of appreciation and love for God that you didn’t even know existed. No wonder people are so eager for everyone to enjoy!
 
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