Protestants: Do You Believe in Free Will or the Monergism of Sola Gratia (by grace alone)?

[CHESTERTONRULES]

Please don’t hide behind Edwin in your search for truth. I appreciate Edwin’s view, but he is no John Calvin, Martin Luther, Augustine, Jonathan Edwards, Geoge Whitefield, John Owen, Charles Spurgeon, John Bunyan, Thomas Watson, RC Sproul, John Piper, and the long long list of Christians who are Calvinist. Edwin is of the Arminian position, so his views are quite bias to his personal views.

 

[Anna_Scott]

2nd Adam;5791845:

Adam,

I know that on this break, which you requested; you say what you want to say to me and I am not supposed to respond.

But really, Adam. Think about what you are saying.

I starting this Thread because you gave me the link to Monergism.com (on another Thread.) You asked me to read from this website. I did that. I honored what you asked of me, and I started a Thread just to discuss the issues you raised. I started this Thread to discuss your issues, Adam. I did this out of respect for you, and the issues you believed to be so important.

But when it comes down to defending the very issues you raised–the very issues you asked me to study, you suddenly need a break. I don’t get what you want, Adam. I’m really trying to understand what you expect from this Forum.

Anna

Anna Scott;5792030:

I think we have to manage our time on this wonderful Catholic Christian website. The discussion and debate on free will, election, predestination, etc are all very important issues.

However, when you compare these issues to the debate of justification by faith alone… then they are not that important in comparison. I think I have my hands full on this site to discuss the truth of justification by faith alone with all my wonderful seperated Catholic brothers and sisters, in comparison to debating free will and predestination.

Justification by faith alone is a gospel issue; free will and predestination are not really gospel issues (even though they are important too - but not as important).

Now, if you want to discuss the truth of justification by faith alone, I would be more than happy to spend my energy with you on this particular topic which caused the Protestant Reformation. Justification by faith alone is the heart of the gospel of God’s grace. If you reject a forensic justification, you might as well live out your life as a Catholic Christian to the glory of God.

Adam,

No one is forcing you to participate on this Thread or the topic of “Grace.”

The title of this Thread is, “Do You Believe in Free Will or the Monergism of Sola Gratia (by grace alone)?”

So “grace” is the issue on this particular Thread, not justification by faith. You can always start a Thread on Justification by faith. That would also be a very interesting discussion.

Anna

 

[2nd_Adam]

Anna Scott;5792030:

2nd Adam;5792103:

Adam,

No one is forcing you to participate on this Thread or the topic of “Grace.”

The title of this Thread is, “Do You Believe in Free Will or the Monergism of Sola Gratia (by grace alone)?”

So “grace” is the issue on this particular Thread, not justification by faith. You can always start a Thread on Justification by faith. That would also be a very interesting discussion.

Anna

We have a justification by faith alone already in place. I hope you join that thread.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=378445

I want to spend my time on this free will thread debating Edwin on the thread topic of free will, Calvninism and Arminianism. But, I want to try to limit my time on this thread with Edwin if all possible (time managemet). I think Tom is a great person to continue where we left off. I think Edwin is a very solid Christian, but is responding with an emotional argument as compared to a bibical argument. At the end of the day, Edwin will have to ignore some very difficult scriptures to come to his conclusion on this issue (IMO). Being a church historian does not necessarily make you understand these things better than the next Christian. We are all depending on God the Holy Spirit to grow in life and doctrine in the Christian Faith.

 

[Tom87]

Concerning predestination

Anna,

I know it can sound like a terrible thing that GOD elects some to eternal salvation, and others to hopeless destruction. Now, you said in an earlier post, that you would most certainly not condemn another person to hell, and GOD’s mercy was much greater than your own. But don’t you think that the mercy of GOD has already been shown by simply saving some of us to salvation, when we are all born depraved. You have agreed that man apart from GOD is doomed. But again, you make it sound like GOD has this massive responsibility to save us all, or at least all who want to be saved. Earlier today, I showed you in the old Testament where GOD not only commanded Joshua to annihilated these foreign cities, but he didn’t even give them a chance to change their ways. We must first agree that GOD in NO way has any obligation to save any of us. We doomed ourselves! And GOD had pity on us. I would venture to say that if GOD had only decided to save even one person after the fall he would be justified. But thanks be to GOD that is was not just one person! Millions of people have been saved since the death of Christ. I’ve been spending several days reading all of your and 2nd Adams remarks to one another, and it seems you two almost never get anywhere. As I also said earlier today, Most people make the mistake of believing in a GOD who has the same morals and standards as they do. And I am saying that the only way we can know GOD is through the scriptures. So, I suggest that we pick one topic at a time and discuss it, but only quoting scripture. I care very little about what the church believes about GOD. I care what the Bible says. So why don’t we organize our thoughts and tackle Predestination. Because it seems that you get frustrated when people shy away from the topic of Predestination. And I am willing to hit it head on. Because not only am I confident in what I believe, I know 100% that scripture ABSOLUTELY teaches it. Using the word a total of 6 times, talking specifically about salvation. What do you say?

Ask your first question. P.S how do I respond to you directly on here and not a general post?

~Tom

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

Concerning predestination

Anna,

I know it can sound like a terrible thing that GOD elects some to eternal salvation, and others to hopeless destruction. Now, you said in an earlier post, that you would most certainly not condemn another person to hell, and GOD’s mercy was much greater than your own. But don’t you think that the mercy of GOD has already been shown by simply saving some of us to salvation, when we are all born depraved.

We are born with the natures that God has given us.

Do you think the Fall was a surprise to God?

 

[2nd_Adam]

We are born with the natures that God has given us.

Do you think the Fall was a surprise to God?

If you look at Romans 5 and federal headship, there are only three humans in redemptive history. We have Adam and Eve (old creation) and the 2nd Adam (new humanity). We are united into this world with the 1st Adam (fallen nature) at birth. And by the grace of God alone, some become united to the 2nd Adam and receive a new nature.

 

[Anna_Scott]

Part 1 of 3: Answer to Tom87

I think firstly it is important to say that debates about the nature of GOD cannot be supported by a personal human understanding.

We are discussing an infinite God, within the realm of our human understanding, enlightened by the Holy Spirit–when we are open to receive His discernment.

Though many of your arguments are very moving, they lack substance and support. It is not a fair argument to say, “It is unimaginable that God would create mankind, with the intention of sending most of His creation to an eternity of torment in Hell. It is possible that this is true, but how could a loving God do such a thing? If this is true, then I truly wish I had never been born” because that is simply a human perspective.

Tom, you are avoiding the issues, excusing yourself from answering–by claiming my statement is “not fair” and that it is “simply a human perspective.”

Again, it is unimaginable that God would create mankind, with the intention of sending most of His creation to an eternity of torment in Hell.

Considering the topic of this Thread: Do You Believe in Free Will or the Monergism of Sola Gratia (by grace alone)?;

and considering the fact that you stated that you are a “5 point Calvinist,” who believes in “predestination, election of some to eternal salvation and others to destruction apart from any will of theirs”;

I think it is very fair to ask how a loving God could do such a thing?

And I would like to remind you that it was the perspective of two weak human that got us into this grand mess to begin with. Proverbs 3:5 says, “Trust in the Lord with all your heart, and do not rely on your own insight.”

Now, I hold the same “perspective of two weak humans that got us into this grand mess to begin with?” You are using accusations to avoid the issue.

I would also like to take a moment and throw out to the whole forum James Chapter 3:1, “Let not many of you become teachers my brethren, knowing that as such we shall incur a stricter judgment.” And also Luke 17:2, "It would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck and he were thrown into the sea, than that he would cause one of these little ones to stumble.” That is reason enough for me to ensure that my perspective is biblical when speaking to others.

I do not doubt your good intentions. However, quoting this Scripture, and accepting this Scripture, does not ensure that your perspective is Biblical.

Now, you make the argument that GOD is fair. But is GOD really fair? Romans 9:11, “For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand not of works, but of him that calleth; It was said unto her, the elder shall serve the younger. For as it was written, Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.”

Now, I am not going to assume the reasons why God did not love Esau. Because Scripture does not give us a reason except that it was for God’s purpose. Never the less, God Hated Esau.

You have gone way off topic here. We are talking about free will vs. the predestination of some to be the elect and others to destruction/eternal torment, etc. We are speaking of what this means for our eternity.

I would also like to point you to a few verses in the Old Testament, which I feel gets left out in a lot of modern controversies. Have you ever noticed that when GOD was leading the Israelites to the promise land, he had the Israelites Annihilate all of the inhabitants of almost every city they passed??

Lets start with Jericho, Joshua Chapter 2-6.” Joshua 6:2, “And the LORD said unto Joshua, see, I have given into thine hand Jericho, and the king therof and the mighty men of valour.” And Joshua 6:16,17, “And it came to pass at the seventh time, when the priest blew with the trumpets, Joshua said unto the people, Shout! For the LORD hath given you the city! And the city shall be accursed, even it and all that are in it, to the LORD: only Rahab the Harlot shall live, she and all that are with her in the house, because she hid the messengers that we sent.” Joshua Chapter 8:18, “And the LORD said unto Joshua, stretch out the spear that is in thy hand toward A’-I, for I give it into thine hand, and Joshua stretched out his spear that he had in his hand toward the city.” And I would like to add here, that this was after the battle between the two armies had taken place. It was just merciless killing after this point. Joshua 8:24,25,26, “And it came to pass when Israel had made and end of slaying ALL the inhabitants of A’-I in the fields and in the wilderness wherein they chased them, and when they were all fallen on the edge of the sword, until they were consumed, that all the Israelites returned unto A’-I, and smote it with the edge of the sword. And so it was, that all that fell that day, both men and women, were twelve thousand, even all the men of A’-I. For Joshua drew not his hand back, wherewith he stretched out the spear until he had utterly destroyed all the inhabitants of the city.”

And this is just one of the smaller examples. And there are Dozens more!!! I think it is fair to reason, that if GOD , was a “Fair” GOD who gives us what we truly deserves, he would not have love Jacob and hated Esau, He would have hated them both!

Surely we would both agree that they would have rightly deserved the condemnation that they would have received. And I would like to point out that Jacob was the more wicked of the two! And GOD knew this while even in the womb! Jacob lied to both his brother AND his father. He also stole his brother’s birthright…and GOD BLESSED him for it! Not so fair I think.

Again, you are going off topic. I can see why you are pointing to this, but it does not help with the issue of our ultimate place in eternity.

(Side Note: I do believe that the elect receive the truth in this lifetime, and that God does give some eyes that cannot see, ears that cannot hear, etc.; but I believe there will be a time when the truth is revealed and all will have a chance to receive salvation.—this is off topic, and would require a Thread of its own. I am saying this to let you know that I am not ignoring Scriptures that speak of the elect.)

Part 2 Continued—next post.

Anna

 

[Anna_Scott]

Part 2 of 3: Response to Tom87

Anna, you speak about your friends and loved ones as if they deserve something better than what they might receive. And as you put it, you think that hell fire is an unjust punishment for we sinners.

Actually, you are misquoting me. I said, “I agree that God grants a salvation/eternal life that we do not deserve. We deserve to die without eternal life. We deserve death/annihilation, as the remainder of God’s creatures.”

I also said, Monergism espouses cold-hearted assumptions of salvation of the elect and to Hell (literally) with everyone else.

It is unimaginable that God would create mankind, with the intention of sending most of His creation to an eternity of torment in Hell. It is possible that this is true, but how could a loving God do such a thing? If this is true, then I truly wish I had never been born.

Are you O.K. with eternal damnation? Do you have compassion for those who do not make it into the circle of the elect; or would you just be glad you made it, forgetting about everyone else?

Remember, we are called to love God, and to love our fellowman as we love ourselves.

Imagine our friends and loved ones, who were not chosen as the elect, spending an eternity in Hell? How good would we feel about Heaven, knowing the fate of our loved ones? This is an unimaginable horror, and would make Heaven a Hell for me. Even with free will, an eternity of torment is a punishment beyond any crime ever committed on earth. I cannot comprehend a God who would do this. This is not the God I know in my heart."

Think about your statement, “I believe in predestination, election of some to eternal salvation and others to destruction apart from any will of theirs.” What kind of God would do this? In this view, we are puppets. It makes a mockery of the work of Christ in shedding His blood for salvation. It takes away the idea that the Gospel is good news.

Yet, surely you know that GOD created hell for a purpose. And he speaks many times about people who will suffer in hell after their life on earth. Jesus talks about it a lot. Surely you know the story “The Rich Man and the Begger”, which Jesus talks about in Luke?

Luke chapter 16:19-31, [19] "There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. . . . .

(Side note: The Scripture you quote is clearly allegorical. Eternal torment as a wage of sin is not supported by Scripture, but the definition of Hell and the fate of the lost, is a topic for another Thread.)

You are avoiding the issues by telling me that God created Hell for a purpose.

The issue is that it is unimaginable that God would create mankind, with the intention of sending most of His creation to an eternity of torment.

Your assertions are contradicted by Scripture.

1 Timothy 2: 1 First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people, 2 for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a peaceful and quiet life, godly and dignified in every way. 3 This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all, which is the testimony given at the proper time. 7 For this I was appointed a preacher and an apostle (I am telling the truth, I am not lying), a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth.

Titus 2:10 not pilfering, but showing all good faith, so that in everything they may adorn the doctrine of God our Savior. 11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people, 12 training us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright, and godly lives in the present age,

God our Savior, desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

So, why would God predestined most of his creation to eternal torment (your view of the destiny of the lost,) if he desires that all people be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth?

Do you really believe that eternal damnation is an unjust punishment for our sins? You know that GOD despises sin in the same way I know that GOD despises sin. It is a little unfair for you to say I make a mockery of the work of Jesus Christ simply because I believe that we are powerless, and GOD is sovereign.

I think you are making a mockery of the work of Christ, because Christ died for the sins of the whole world, not just the “elect.” If most of creation is predestined to Hell; why would Christ die for the sins of the whole world?

John 3 (ESV): 35 The Father loves the Son and has given all things into his hand.

John 12: 31 Now is the judgment of this world; now will the ruler of this world be cast out. 32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself." 33 He said this to show by what kind of death he was going to die.

1 John 2: 1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. 2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

Romans 5: 18 Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men.

2 Corinthians 5: 15 and he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.

Hebrews 2: 9 But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

Especially when you believe that there cannot be a GOD who punishes people eternally because of their Sin. Truly Anna, If you do not think that people commit sins worthy of eternal punishment you might not understand the state that we as sinners are in. And if you cannot comprehend that the God you believe in sends people to an eternal suffering for theirs sins (be it by election or free will). You might want to do a little reading pertaining to the God you believe in.
~Your Brother in Christ ~Tom 87

No need to be condescending.

Part 3 Continued—next post.

Anna

 

[Anna_Scott]

Part 3 of 3: Response to Tom87

How do you know that you are in the group of the elect?

1 Corinthians 10: 12 Therefore let anyone who thinks that he stands take heed lest he fall.

Luke 13: 24 "Strive to enter through the narrow door. For many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able. 25 When once the master of the house has risen and shut the door, and you begin to stand outside and to knock at the door, saying, ‘Lord, open to us,’ then he will answer you, ‘I do not know where you come from.’ 26 Then you will begin to say, ‘We ate and drank in your presence, and you taught in our streets.’

27 But he will say, ‘I tell you, I do not know where you come from. Depart from me, all you workers of evil!’ 28 In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham and Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God but you yourselves cast out. 29 And people will come from east and west, and from north and south, and recline at table in the kingdom of God. 30 And behold, some are last who will be first, and some are first who will be last."

Clearly, there will be those who believe they are among the elect, but Christ will say, “I know you not.”

So, I would not be so presumptuous to claim that I am, without a doubt, one of the elect.

Philippians 2: 12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, 13 for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

We are to work out our salvation in fear and trembling.

The thing that is most disturbing about your posts, is that I cannot see even one small sign of compassion for those you believe are destined to an eternity of torment.

Remember the Great Commandment:

Mark 12: 28 And one of the scribes came up and heard them disputing with one another, and seeing that he answered them well, asked him, “Which commandment is the most important of all?” 29 Jesus answered, “The most important is, ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. 30 And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’ 31 The second is this: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.”

32 And the scribe said to him, “You are right, Teacher. You have truly said that he is one, and there is no other besides him. 33 And to love him with all the heart and with all the understanding and with all the strength, and to love one’s neighbor as oneself, is much more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.” 34 And when Jesus saw that he answered wisely, he said to him, “You are not far from the kingdom of God.” And after that no one dared to ask him any more questions.

It is easy to say they will get what they deserve, if you believe you are not in the group of the lost.

Anna

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

If you look at Romans 5 and federal headship, there are only three humans in redemptive history. We have Adam and Eve (old creation) and the 2nd Adam (new humanity). We are united into this world with the 1st Adam (fallen nature) at birth. And by the grace of God alone, some become united to the 2nd Adam and receive a new nature.

You didn’t answer the question.

Do you think the FALL was a surprise to God, or was it part of his plan of creation?

 

[2nd_Adam]

You didn’t answer the question.

Do you think the FALL was a surprise to God, or was it part of his plan of creation?

If you go back a few posts, Edwin already asked that question. I posted my answer to that exact same question.

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

If you go back a few posts, Edwin already asked that question. I posted my answer to that exact same question.

Yes or No?

 

[Tom87]

We are born with the natures that God has given us.

Do you think the Fall was a surprise to God?

2nd Adam, I don’t think the fall was a surprise to GOD. I believe that it was all planned and under the supervision of the LORD before the foundations of the world was even layed. I am in agreement with supralapsarianism. By the way, are you catholic? Or Protestant 2nd Adam?

~Tom

 

[Anna_Scott]

Concerning predestination
Anna,
I know it can sound like a terrible thing that GOD elects some to eternal salvation, and others to hopeless destruction. Now, you said in an earlier post, that you would most certainly not condemn another person to hell, and GOD’s mercy was much greater than your own. But don’t you think that the mercy of GOD has already been shown by simply saving some of us to salvation, when we are all born depraved. You have agreed that man apart from GOD is doomed. But again, you make it sound like GOD has this massive responsibility to save us all, or at least all who want to be saved.

I covered this in my last 3 posts to you. (See Posts #286, #287, #288)

Earlier today, I showed you in the old Testament where GOD not only commanded Joshua to annihilated these foreign cities, but he didn’t even give them a chance to change their ways. We must first agree that GOD in NO way has any obligation to save any of us. We doomed ourselves! And GOD had pity on us. I would venture to say that if GOD had only decided to save even one person after the fall he would be justified. But thanks be to GOD that is was not just one person! Millions of people have been saved since the death of Christ.

Also, covered in my last 3 posts to you. (See Posts #286, #287, #288)

As I also said earlier today, Most people make the mistake of believing in a GOD who has the same morals and standards as they do.

I am quite certain that God’s love and mercy are so much greater than that of any human. And, yes, His Mercy is not to be compared to our human standards.
Tom87;5792389:

And I am saying that the only way we can know GOD is through the scriptures.

I do not necessarily agree, but good to know where you are coming from.

So, I suggest that we pick one topic at a time and discuss it, but only quoting scripture.

We already have a topic: Protestants: Do You Believe in Free Will or the Monergism of Sola Gratia (by grace alone)?

I care very little about what the church believes about GOD. I care what the Bible says.

I am not Catholic. I do quote Scripture. However, I do appreciate the Catholic Members who include quotes from Catechism–I welcome their quotes of Catechism/Church Fathers in any posts to me. I do not hold to Sola Scriptura-just so you know my position, Tom.

So why don’t we organize our thoughts and tackle Predestination.

I just submitted 3 posts to you on the topic of predestination. (See Posts #286, #287, #288)

Because it seems that you get frustrated when people shy away from the topic of Predestination.

Tom, it is not that I am shying away from anything other than Predestination. I am the OP (Original Poster) on this Thread. I started and named this Thread. Part of my responsibility, as the OP, is to keep the Thread on topic, as much as possible.

The title and topic of this Thread is: “Do You Believe in Free Will or the Monergism of Sola Gratia (by grace alone)?”

I realize that many things are intertwined, and there is always going to be an overlap.

However, if we shift the focus to justification by faith (as 2nd Adam wanted to do-though I think he found a Thread for that), the reason God loved Jacob and hated Esau, the story of the Rich Man and the Beggar as a proof text for Hell, or why God instructed the Israelites to annihilate certain groups of people—the topic of this Thread would soon be obliterated.

Even though these things are interesting in the discussion, they need to take a back seat to the topic.

If you look at my Original Post #1, you will see the purpose and context of this Thread.

And I am willing to hit it head on. Because not only am I confident in what I believe, I know 100% that scripture ABSOLUTELY teaches it. Using the word a total of 6 times, talking specifically about salvation. What do you say? Ask your first question.

We already have questions on the table:

How could a loving God predestined most of His Creation to Eternal destruction/damnation/eternal torment?

Do you have compassion for those who do not make it into the circle of the elect; or would you just be glad you made it, forgetting about everyone else?

How good would you feel about Heaven, knowing the fate of our loved ones? Especially, since you believe the fate of the lost is eternal torment?

P.S how do I respond to you directly on here and not a general post?~Tom

You can send me a PM (Private Message). If you click on my name, you will see an option to send a private message.

 

[2nd_Adam]

Yes or No?

I think my answer was more than a yes or a no. Just go back about 3 or 4 pages for my answer.

 

[2nd_Adam]

2nd Adam, I don’t think the fall was a surprise to GOD. I believe that it was all planned and under the supervision of the LORD before the foundations of the world was even layed. I am in agreement with supralapsarianism. By the way, are you catholic? Or Protestant 2nd Adam?

~Tom

Both,

I’m Protestant who is catholic as in the Apostle’s Creed.

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

I think my answer was more than a yes or a no. Just go back about 3 or 4 pages for my answer.

It is a yes or no question.

Was God surprised by the Fall?

 

[2nd_Adam]

It is a yes or no question.

Was God surprised by the Fall?

Ahh. come on, read my answer that I gave to Edwin. I already posted that God cannot do everything. For instance, God cannot lie. And God cannot learn. Therefore, God is never surprised.

 

[Contarini]

Yes, but just because some Christian believes that I am condemned to hell, it does not necessarily follow that I am.

Indeed. I’m less concerned about the effect of that belief on you than about its effect on the person who believes it and on the Body of Christ as a whole.

No, but there is a difference between having a theology of Christianity that excludes some people that should be included (or vice versa for that matter) and killing the people that you think are excluded.

The first case is simply being wrong theologically. The second case is being wrong theologically and…well…murder and torture.

Again, don’t you think you are reflecting a secular, Enlightenment set of priorities here?

Consider this: early Christians (and many Christians since then, including many in our own time) were willing to die in torment rather than renounce their place in the Body of Christ. Doesn’t that indicate that being excluded from the Body of Christ is worse than death?

The idea that “simply being wrong theologically” is fairly trivial as long as no one is being physically harmed hardly seems in keeping with the spirit of the martyrs.

There’s a sense in which I agree with you. I think that reason and natural human empathy should restrain us from killing other people. Getting one’s theology right requires more than that. So in that sense, going against basic moral intuitions (based on what we mistakenly think Christianity teaches) is going to do us more spiritual harm than innocently getting our theology muddled.

But that’s where the cultural context becomes relevant. People in the late Middle Ages and the early modern era accepted the notion that a number of crimes were so wicked that they were rightly punished by death, and that horrific forms of death were appropriate for horrific crimes because they dramatized the seriousness of the offense and served as a deterrent. They were also generally more optimistic about the human capacity to get theology right than many of us are today. Given all those assumptions, I don’t think that supporting the death penalty for heretics was going against basic moral intuitions. Pursuing heretics in a vengeful or sadistic way certainly would be.

We have recurrent threads on this forum about the legitimacy of dropping the atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. I think that this was an unjustifiable atrocity. I can’t see that it was any less wicked than burning heretics to death. Yet many people whose character I respect defend this action as necessary and even humane given the circumstances. I think they are horribly wrong. But I don’t write them off as wicked people for that reason. On the other hand, if someone said “Japanese people are nothing but scum and I wish we had killed all of them,” then that person clearly would be showing a gravely deficient character, to put it mildly.

I for one happen to think that murder and torture are more grave matters than being theologically wrong on who is in and who is out. But…your mileage may differ here.

Unless you are a strict opponent of the death penalty, you should be careful using the word “murder” to describe judicial punishment for a deliberate action just because you think that that particular action shouldn’t come under the authority of civil law.

But everybody has boundaries on what they consider Christian and what is outside the lines, unless you are some variant of Universalist I suppose.

Universalism with regard to salvation is irrelevant here.

The net is that a whole lot of people are going to be wrong on what exactly the boundaries of Christianity are. This is not a problem confined to your local fundamentalist, separatist, independent, KJV only Bible Baptist church (sorry I saw that title on a church sign when I went on vacation and was humoured by it). We all face this.

For example my personal boundaries would exclude Mormons and JW. That is what I have been taught as a Christian. Is it possible I am wrong. Sure (more likely on Mormons than JW imho

I would reverse that (I think Mormons depart far more essentially from the basics of Christianity than JWs do)

but anyway). But I would hope that if I am wrong that it is not horrible and blasphemous.

Yes, it would be. That’s why we should always err on the side of including people, just as we should err on the side of not killing people.

In both cases, God knows the heart and will judge us in mercy, so we shouldn’t get paranoid about it. And I understand that excluding people from the visible Church is reversible, while killing people isn’t. But I think that one of the basic errors of American Protestantism is the idea that there are no real consequences to excluding fellow Christians from fellowship. That is, I repeat, a secular, unbelieving attitude and completely indefensible on the basis of Scripture and Christian tradition.

But anyway, God in no way is honored to respect my boundaries or the boundaries of any other Christian. I am comforted by that fact.

This is false comfort. You don’t take Matt. 16:19 and 18:18 seriously enough. I don’t of course believe that our mistaken judgments send people to hell. But they do exclude people from the fellowship of Christ’s Body here on earth. And that’s extremely serious.

Well my church does not baptize infants either.

I really don’t care whether you baptize infants or not. There are good arguments on both sides of that issue. I care whether you recognize infant baptism as real baptism.

Fortunately I was raised a Methodist and go to a Pentecostal/Charismatic church. So my disappointment in Calvin and Luther does not cause as much of a crisis of belief as it would others. Now, if I were to read similar stuff about John Wesley…

Well, Wesley didn’t kill anyone! He had a lot of issues with boundaries in his relationships with women, and he could be rhetorically nasty and very priggish and pompous at times. But those are the worst things I can think of about him! (Even with regard to the question at issue between us–excluding people from the Body of Christ–Wesley was quite broad-minded compared to other orthodox Christians of his time.)

Edwin

 

[NotTooSmart]

Indeed. I’m less concerned about the effect of that belief on you than about its effect on the person who believes it and on the Body of Christ as a whole.

Again, don’t you think you are reflecting a secular, Enlightenment set of priorities here?

Consider this: early Christians (and many Christians since then, including many in our own time) were willing to die in torment rather than renounce their place in the Body of Christ. Doesn’t that indicate that being excluded from the Body of Christ is worse than death?

The idea that “simply being wrong theologically” is fairly trivial as long as no one is being physically harmed hardly seems in keeping with the spirit of the martyrs.

There’s a sense in which I agree with you. I think that reason and natural human empathy should restrain us from killing other people. Getting one’s theology right requires more than that. So in that sense, going against basic moral intuitions (based on what we mistakenly think Christianity teaches) is going to do us more spiritual harm than innocently getting our theology muddled.

But that’s where the cultural context becomes relevant. People in the late Middle Ages and the early modern era accepted the notion that a number of crimes were so wicked that they were rightly punished by death, and that horrific forms of death were appropriate for horrific crimes because they dramatized the seriousness of the offense and served as a deterrent. They were also generally more optimistic about the human capacity to get theology right than many of us are today. Given all those assumptions, I don’t think that supporting the death penalty for heretics was going against basic moral intuitions. Pursuing heretics in a vengeful or sadistic way certainly would be.

We have recurrent threads on this forum about the legitimacy of dropping the atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. I think that this was an unjustifiable atrocity. I can’t see that it was any less wicked than burning heretics to death. Yet many people whose character I respect defend this action as necessary and even humane given the circumstances. I think they are horribly wrong. But I don’t write them off as wicked people for that reason. On the other hand, if someone said “Japanese people are nothing but scum and I wish we had killed all of them,” then that person clearly would be showing a gravely deficient character, to put it mildly.

Unless you are a strict opponent of the death penalty, you should be careful using the word “murder” to describe judicial punishment for a deliberate action just because you think that that particular action shouldn’t come under the authority of civil law.

Universalism with regard to salvation is irrelevant here.

I would reverse that (I think Mormons depart far more essentially from the basics of Christianity than JWs do)

Yes, it would be. That’s why we should always err on the side of including people, just as we should err on the side of not killing people.

In both cases, God knows the heart and will judge us in mercy, so we shouldn’t get paranoid about it. And I understand that excluding people from the visible Church is reversible, while killing people isn’t. But I think that one of the basic errors of American Protestantism is the idea that there are no real consequences to excluding fellow Christians from fellowship. That is, I repeat, a secular, unbelieving attitude and completely indefensible on the basis of Scripture and Christian tradition.

This is false comfort. You don’t take Matt. 16:19 and 18:18 seriously enough. I don’t of course believe that our mistaken judgments send people to hell. But they do exclude people from the fellowship of Christ’s Body here on earth. And that’s extremely serious.

I really don’t care whether you baptize infants or not. There are good arguments on both sides of that issue. I care whether you recognize infant baptism as real baptism.

Well, Wesley didn’t kill anyone! He had a lot of issues with boundaries in his relationships with women, and he could be rhetorically nasty and very priggish and pompous at times. But those are the worst things I can think of about him! (Even with regard to the question at issue between us–excluding people from the Body of Christ–Wesley was quite broad-minded compared to other orthodox Christians of his time.)

Edwin

Edwin:
To be honest, at times you have sort of lost me here.

I think what you are saying though is this…

(1) It is a grevious sin to the body of Christ to arbitrarily assign somebody to hell (presumably over theological differences) when in reality that somebody is a child of God.

I agree.

However the next question in my mind is whether this is more grevious than ignoring all theological differences and assigning somebody to heaven (presumably covering over theological differences) when the reality is that those theological differences are so severe that this person is not a child of God.

I would like to agree here. I have the motivational gift of mercy. But I am honestly not sure. The counter argument would be that at least with the latter you are preserving the purity of the gospel (as you perceive it). Ideally I want my boundaries to reflect God’s boundaries. But since a whole lot of us have a whole lot of different boundaries, there are going to be a whole lot of people in heaven wrong about this.

(2) I have thought I have heard you say throughout this that arbitratily assigning somebody to hell over theological differences when the reality is that somebody is a child of God is more grevious than killing other Christians for Christ.

I respectfully disagree. Logically killing other Christians for Christ has the same impact on the body of Christ as (1) above. Plus you are adding to this the sin of unjust killing (I will avoid the word murder for now) and possibly sadism. I would say option 2 has all of the negatives of option 1 and a few additional biggies like unjust killing.

(3) You want me to judge the actions of Calvin and Luther in light of their time periods in which killing other people for Christ was the norm and a good thing.

I would like to believe this. But I keep coming back the the question of whether Christians in a society 300 years from now that has rejected abortion should go easy on Christians in this time period who were pro-choice or Christians 200 years ago were pro-slavery. And the fact is that for me anyway, I do not give pro-choice Christians today a pass, nor do I give pro-slavery Christians 200 years ago a pass (now maybe I am consistently too black and white on this stuff…I am open to that possibility). So then the question in my mind is why should I give Luther and Calvin a pass. That would be kind of inconsistent of me, wouldn’t you think.