Protestants: Do you believe that Christ is truly present in the communion elements of bread and wine?

[Realcatholicgk]

… The only way to know what the True teachings are is to look to the Church He instituded through the Apostles, the First Pope and the First Bishop’s. **That is who holds the Key…These others are using a duplicate key and some are even using a credit card to gimmy the lock… ****

Hi BM,

That was too cute! I laughed out loud. you can bet I I will be using that I think The JW and SDA are trying to gimmy the lock! **

Look at what Jesus says about False Security…(OSAS)

“You have a false security that all is forgiven. But is this not sheer insanity in sin to believe that you may offend your God and break His rules and enter? What manner of life would there be in your Kingdom of Heaven? All will enter by merit! Many shall enter through suffering and atonement and penance!” - Jesus, February 10, 1976

** Look what The Blessed Mother said about Hell.

Veronica - Oh, my goodness! I see–oh, it’s a stench! The odor is so horrible! I see a huge pit, and it’s real burning. The walls are orange and burning hot. Oh! Oh, and I see these horrible creatures; they’re clinging to the sides of the rocks. Some have wings on them with horrible–they look almost human, half human, half animal, but they have pointed ears. And they have … “oh, my God! Please, Blessed Mother, take me out of here!” Oh, my God, they have feet that look like claws and arms with hair, but they also–the fingers have long fingernails; they’re like claws. And they have the most horrible grinning expressions on their faces. Now I see, I see bodies of humans falling, falling. As they fall they’re starting to glow. They’re glowing like an orange color, like coals. And they’re screaming, “Help! Mercy! Mercy! Too late! Too late!” Oh! Oh, my God! And I see they’re going so fast. I don’t know where they’re falling from. They seem to be raining, like almost from the sky into this pit. And I see–oh, my God! I see some are priests. Oh! Oh, and I see one, he has oh, my God!-a cardinal’s hat on his head. And there are three. Now I can count them, there are three. They have mitres on their heads. Oh, my God! Oh, it’s so horrible! The heat is so great, and the stench! I feel like I’m just burning…
Our Lady - “My child, you have viewed the poor souls lost forever into eternity.” - Our Lady, September 7, 1974**

I thank God that we are giving the grace to suffer and given the grace to atone for our sins as well as intercede for others. But most of all I thank God for purgatory, for this is a great grace otherwise almost all would perish. And it absoluety foolishness that protestants reject purgatory because there in the most need of it because they are rejecting to wear the key by rejecting the True Church…

**As I am sure you know, some of the Protestant groups, maybe 500 or so of the 61,000 don’t reject purgatory. But it actually doesn’t matter. It is a reality that they will suffer with or without belief in it! Their big problem is not believing in the RP which can save their souls! from Hell itself **

**Veronica - Our Lady refers to it as the second stage. And now I see–oh, there are many priests, many priests down here. Oh. Oh, and there are–there are also bishops and cardinals. I can recognize them. They’re holding their faces in their hands. Oh!..
“Don’t leave me here!” [Veronica sobs.]

Now Our Lady is taking my hand; we’re going up. “Take me out! Oh, I don’t want to look.” Now Our Lady is pointing down. Our Lady - “You see, My child, why I ask that you call for the prayers for your priests. Without your prayers, many will spend years, many years of purging in the second stage.” - Our Lady, May 22, 1974

God Bless

Tick,…Tock…Tick…Tock!

God Bless

**

.

 

[Realcatholicgk]

The Bread and Wine are SYMBOLIC!

**Hi Frontline:

I have to agree with you. In all Protestant groups the bread and grape juice are only symbolic of the Real Body and Blood that the Catholic priest has the authority from Jesus to change from bread and wine into His Body and Blood so that He can be physical food for our body and dwell in us as we dwell in Him. Also the worship service are only symbolic of the real worship that God expects.

God Bless!**

 

[Bill_Pick]

SO WHAT YOU ARE SAYING OUR LORD WAS TELLING LIES WHEN HE SAID "So Jesus said to them, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me and I in him. WHERE DOES IT SAY THAT WHAT OUR LORD SAID WAS SYMBOLIC

 

[BMSODM]

Realcatholicgk:
RealC***

I see you liked my analogy…

I have been spending alot of time reading Veronica’s messages and I beleive there right on point. It all lines up perfect to what I understand the teachings of the Church to be. And without leaning on my own understandings I have lined them up with the Teachings of The Church, my Pillar. I havent found any contradiction’s, have you?

Look what else Mother says about purgatory…

**“As ye sow, so shall ye reap. Give, and it will be given to you. Pray now for those who are helpless, and you, when you enter, will be prayed for.” **- Our Lady, September 7, 1973

It’s sad to see how our brothers and sisters who are protestants that reject purgatory will more likely then not won’t have someone to pray for them during there purging ,because they don’t pray for others there. Unless they keep a token catholic at there side as a friend…

Our brothers look at purgatory as a form of condemnation but look at what Jesus has said…

**“Purgatory is a great sense of loss and suffering of banishment, but eased by the knowledge of an end that will lead to Heaven.” **- Jesus, August 5, 1976

It’s a process that brings a soul to the Father, how could anything that brings you to the Father ever be viewed as a punishment or condemnation.

Its sad to read how many will be condemned. I cry for Mercy without ceasing, its all I can do…

**“Sin has now become a way of life in your world. The souls continue to fall into hell as numerous as the snowflakes that fall from the heavens!” **- Our Lady, March 25, 1973

 

[Protestant101]

Protestant101;4679075:

Jesus gave His blood on Calvary, “once for all;” (Heb.10:10) and it is blasphemy to try to perpetually reapply it by the supposed virtues of a human priest.

These human priest are vessals chosen and ordained by God to be instruments of the Holy Spirit. To say that they are blasphemy is blasphemy in of itself.

The Bible is clear if you have the whole Bible. You can’t rip things out of context. Hebrews was written because of the disobedient Jews that kept sacraficing animals in place of the Lamb on the Cross.
Which seance did you get these “Mary messages” from? Mary is dead. if you are talking to the dead, you are in mired in apostasy.

It is so very interesting how you patently dismiss the whole chapter of Hebrews to escape from the texts our Lord has provided to guide us in His way, and for us to know His plan of salvation.

Hebrews is also for the modern-day apostates who keep sacrificing little biscuits in place of The Lamb on the cross, and then try to call these little biscuits “Jesus.”

 

[Realcatholicgk]

**Hi Protestant101.

You say “I protest the sacrifice of the Mass, which contradicts the biblical teaching that Jesus died once for all, a simple sacrifice for sin that is never to be repeated (Heb. 9:26-28).” That isn’t true.The Sacrifice of the mass is the uniting of the faithful with the original sacrificial death of our Lord and savior Jesus Christ. Jesus Himself, Told us that in the Ghospel of John. You use a portion of Hebrews that shows that hebrew people don’t have to make sacrifices because Jesus made the final sacrifice to prove that Jesus lied! Why don’t you try following the teachings of Jesus for awhile? The devil will always take you back!

Tick…Tock…Tick…Tock!**

 

[Realcatholicgk]

SO WHAT YOU ARE SAYING OUR LORD WAS TELLING LIES WHEN HE SAID "So Jesus said to them, 'Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me and I in him. WHERE DOES IT SAY THAT WHAT OUR LORD SAID WAS SYMBOLIC

**
Hi Bill,

That is exactly what they are saying Bill. However, You don’t have to SHOUT at them! :tsktsk: God will do that when He tells them where to go to “collect” their reward for disobedience and pride! :bigyikes: Stupid is as stupid does. Their 61,000 Protestant groups have only around 50 that believe in the Real presence. The real shame is that 56% of “Catholics” don’t believe in the real presence either. They are what I call the protestant influence. They also believe that all people are saved Non-Catholics and Catholics alike for just being good people. They don’t care what Jesus said or what His church teaches. Those poor lost fools will be in Hell also!

They all need our prayers Bill, not our yelling at them. The devil blinds their eyes and clouds their minds from the truth. Prayer is the only effective answer to Satan and his followers.

God Bless**

 

[grampben]

**
Hi Bill,

That is exactly what they are saying Bill. However, You don’t have to SHOUT at them! :tsktsk: God will do that when He tells them where to go to “collect” their reward for disobedience and pride! :bigyikes: Stupid is as stupid does. Their 61,000 Protestant groups have only around 50 that believe in the Real presence. The real shame is that 56% of “Catholics” don’t believe in the real presence either. They are what I call the protestant influence. They also believe that all people are saved Non-Catholics and Catholics alike for just being good people. They don’t care what Jesus said or what His church teaches. Those poor lost fools will be in Hell also!

They all need our prayers Bill, not our yelling at them. The devil blinds their eyes and clouds their minds from the truth. Prayer is the only effective answer to Satan and his followers.

God Bless**

Hey Realcatholicgk.

Where is your proof that there are 61,000 denominations? The number 32,000 has been thrown around this forum all day also.

God Bless.

 

[Bill_Pick]

**
Hi Bill,

That is exactly what they are saying Bill. However, You don’t have to SHOUT at them! :tsktsk: God will do that when He tells them where to go to “collect” their reward for disobedience and pride! :bigyikes: Stupid is as stupid does. Their 61,000 Protestant groups have only around 50 that believe in the Real presence. The real shame is that 56% of “Catholics” don’t believe in the real presence either. They are what I call the protestant influence. They also believe that all people are saved Non-Catholics and Catholics alike for just being good people. They don’t care what Jesus said or what His church teaches. Those poor lost fools will be in Hell also!

They all need our prayers Bill, not our yelling at them. The devil blinds their eyes and clouds their minds from the truth. Prayer is the only effective answer to Satan and his followers.

God Bless**

I,M NOT YELLING AT ANY ONE, LIKE I HAVE SAID AFTER MOST OF MY POST , MY KEY BOARD IS NOT WORKING AND IS HOLDING MY CAPPS KEY DOWN I,M SORRY I JUST DONT HAVE ANY ONE TO GET ME A NEW KEY BOARD.PEACE

 

[Protestant101]

Originally Posted by Protestant101 forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cag/viewpost.gif
***Hi Protestant101.

****You say “I protest the sacrifice of the Mass, which contradicts the biblical teaching that Jesus died once for all, a simple sacrifice for sin that is never to be repeated (Heb. 9:26-28).” That isn’t true.The Sacrifice of the mass is the uniting of the faithful with the original sacrificial death of our Lord and savior Jesus Christ. Jesus Himself, Told us that in the Ghospel of John. You use a portion of Hebrews that shows that hebrew people don’t have to make sacrifices because Jesus made the final sacrifice to prove that Jesus lied! Why don’t you try following the teachings of Jesus for awhile? The devil will always take you back!

Tick…Tock…Tick…Tock!*Hebrews is for all Christians of all ages. To deny it’s clear teachings to Christians today is to once again denigrate the Bibles authority and dilute it’s meaning. It’s clearest teaching is how no man can ever repeat or add to the Sacrifice of Christ who died once for all. What don’t you understand about “once for all?”

 

[Realcatholicgk]

Hebrews is for all Christians of all ages. To deny it’s clear teachings to Christians today is to once again denigrate the Bibles authority and dilute it’s meaning. It’s clearest teaching is how no man can ever repeat or add to the Sacrifice of Christ who died once for all. What don’t you understand about “once for all?”

**

Hi Protestant,

Hebrews was written for the Hebrews. The name gives you a hint! We don’t deny the teachings.Jews, or Hebrews should not make any more sacrafices! Jesus made the last one that was needed. We don’t deny its teachings. We proclaim them as true! Of course, We agree that no one can add or repeat the Sacrifice of Christ. He was the perfect sacrifice. He died in payment for every sin ever committed by every person ever born! We don’t repeat the sacrifice. How could we? Unless we took the “Host” (greek for “Victim”) and nailed it again to a cross. Some devil worshipping Protestant did that and posted on U-Tube. for all Satan’s followers to enjoy. May God have mercy on their condemned souls!
Real believers in Jesus join with Him at the last supper just like He commanded at the last supper and sit at the foot of the cross as he dies for our sins. We have our souls nurished with His Body and Blood thereby obtaining the graces to resist the devil unlike the Protestants and member of your cult also! What don’t you understand about not calling Jesus a liar?

God Bless

When I saw this sign, I thought of you! It might help to clear your thinking if you attempted to worship Jesus on the cotrrect day as He also directed. No, wait, the Protestants do and they aren’t better off than your cult. But it is a idea. I know it can’t hurt. If you ever go to a Catholic mass. Don’t bless yourself with the holy water, I was told it burns non-believers! I don’t know if it is true but I don’t want to see you get hurt! Until you follow Jesus and His real teachings, I would avoid it just incase!

**

 

[pneuma07]

If one of the gospels recorded those words, I think I would have to choose between:
a) it was added to that gospel at a later date (this would cause real problems b/c then, perhaps, one should be suspect of all other things unique to a single gospel) or
b) Jesus was confused…meaning he wasn’t fully God (not attractive at all) ; or
c) reality is much more like an Alice in Wonderland thing than I have come to believe.

Fortunately, I don’t have to make such a choice.

.

Your interesting trilemma is making somehow my point. Had RP been unthinkable, any shift towards it would have been hard indeed.

I was in particular suggesting that the wording of the Institution is such, IMHO, that either RP was unthinkable, or it was the meant message. Adding that if we admit a realistic understanding was just even possible, then, in order to avoid grave misunderstandings, Jesus could simply use the rich Aramaic vocabulary which was available in order to communicate a mere symbolic meaning and rule out realism.

Some reasons why I cannot, on the other hand, believe RP WAS unthinkable have been given in my last post.

*Sorry, I don’t understand your question. *

1. I’m simply wondering whether after all it does not look simpler considering there was no programmed destruction of evidences of NRP, and of RP-NRP controversies within the ECFs.
2. It seems, on the other hand, your next observation about possible ranks of issues ( calendary versus RP) does help, if I got it correctly , in confirming the impression that such controversies must have been raised if really different views of Eucharist were there.

These two combined issues seem to point to no real contrast among eucharistic views within ECFs.

 

[Bill_Pick]

you are one very rude person the CC is not a cult and you have no reason to be like you are.One point to keep clear about the Catholic teaching is that while “The Holy Mass is a true and proper sacrifice” (De Fide), the Mass is not ANOTHER sacrifice, nor a re-sacrifice of Christ, it is the ONE offering of Christ that is RE-PRESENTED (made present) and APPLIED to us which is perpetually present before the Father in heaven. That is what Hebrews chapters 7-10 is all about. Christ is our great High Priest FOREVER who EVER LIVES to intercede for us (Heb 7:24-25). His high priestly work CONTINUES and the Mass catches us up into that heavenly Liturgy (Rev 4-5) where the ONE sacrifice of the Lamb is perpetually present before the Father.

 

[pneuma07]

I would clarify that the form of corruption was typically one of addition to the deposit. (IMHO)

.

We could “develop” this statement. … The preliminary question being which credentials the XXI century Christian can boast in order to measure the orthodoxy of the early Fathers

This inexhaustible richness of the Sacrament is something that I would categorize as an addition rather than part of the initial deposit.

Then we should understand what “addition” here means: between growth in awareness or exploration of the deposit, and , on the other hand, illicit change by introduction of novelties.

( maybe we are starting too many lines by now )

*agreed subject to:

a) unless the transition occurred very rapidly in the first half of the 2nd century; and
b) one should expect that some reversals would occur and some areas would experience a quicker transition than others such that it wouldn’t be a pefectly clean/uniform transition.*

It seems fair accepting in principle your conditions

 

[Realcatholicgk]

Hey Realcatholicgk.

Where is your proof that there are 61,000 denominations? The number 32,000 has been thrown around this forum all day also.

God Bless.

**Hi Gramps,

We know that God counts not only the hairs of our head (Matt. 10:30) but even our tears! I don’t think even God would waste the time it would take to count the perverted denominations that call themselves Christians and we loving call Protestants. It would actually be easier for us to count the hairs on people heads that these corrupted groups
In some reports, there are reported to be over 33,000 Protestant groups with 21 or more being created every month. These counterfeit denominations, and non-denominational groups are estimated to have over 28,000 sub denominations, and various associations, conferences, conventions, communions, fellowships, groups, sect, cults, unions, socials and pot lucks?
That number of 61,000 is a very “conservative” estimate.

Even Protestant can’t accurately count their own groups. With their different combinations of doctrines and dogmas and teaching they can’t actually determine who are actually members of their groups.

It is really true that Protestant groups themselves can’t even count their various parts because many of them don’t even agree or recognize others who try to associate with them. Many groups just say “we are part of the Christian church” believing in the autonomy of their local church kind of like independent congregations. All of these things help to complicate accurate counting.
Lets take the Baptists for example! There are 220,000 Baptist congregations worldwide. If we didn’t group them and other denominations together, against their own desires, into manageable groups the number of Protestant denominations would well number over 500,000 or more!
All these Protestant groups, being lead by Satan, keep dividing and multiplying into more and more groups. It is so obvious that Protestantism is a cancerous growth on the Body of Christ. It amazes me that many don’t see it. In under 500 years it has corrupted, distorted, Jesus’ teachings. And it is forcing many good, God fearing Jesus loving people to be condemned to eternal damnation because of their false understanding and knowledge of Jesus and His real teachings.
As I said, all 61,000 groups use parts of the authentic doctrines of the Catholic church mixed with corrupted dogmas to make over 1,375 different doctrines and dogmas. Many of there teachings are in direct conflict with Jesus’ teachings in scripture and as taught by His real Church. They constantly revise their corrupted, distorted, and altered copies of authentic scriptures. Thereby providing them with erroneous and fatal teachings. They continue to learn and spread counterfeit beliefs attributed to Jesus. The don’t know the real interpretation of scriptures, when they find out they convert to Catholicism. They must because it is Truth!
The amazing thing is they all partially agree with the CC and all partially disagree with the CC. They don’t agree with each other on many things and keep dividing and becoming more corrupt and distorted very much like a cancer. They all agree that the Catholic church is wrong.
Now who do we know that is against Jesus? Remember that the Catholic church has taught only the truth for 2,000 years refusing to compromise the truth even to save souls 500 years ago. Today, only the Catholic sects remain faithful to all Jesus teachings. The 61,000 false denominations continue to attempt to infect Jesus real church! Only the Holy Sprit protects us from this evil identified by the uncontrolled division and multiplication and hate for Jesus real church!

I hope that helps to answer your question Grampsben! 33,000 + 28,000 = 61,000 “acceptable” but under estimated count of Protestant groups. For a more accurate estimate I can provide you with thousands of names of Protestant denominations, non-denominational and groups with their further variations such as: full gospel; reform; orthodox.

God Bless
**

 

[grampben]

**Hi Gramps,

We know that God counts not only the hairs of our head (Matt. 10:30) but even our tears! I don’t think even God would waste the time it would take to count the perverted denominations that call themselves Christians and we loving call Protestants. It would actually be easier for us to count the hairs on people heads that these corrupted groups
In some reports, there are reported to be over 33,000 Protestant groups with 21 or more being created every month. These counterfeit denominations, and non-denominational groups are estimated to have over 28,000 sub denominations, and various associations, conferences, conventions, communions, fellowships, groups, sect, cults, unions, socials and pot lucks?
That number of 61,000 is a very “conservative” estimate.

Even Protestant can’t accurately count their own groups. With their different combinations of doctrines and dogmas and teaching they can’t actually determine who are actually members of their groups.

It is really true that Protestant groups themselves can’t even count their various parts because many of them don’t even agree or recognize others who try to associate with them. Many groups just say “we are part of the Christian church” believing in the autonomy of their local church kind of like independent congregations. All of these things help to complicate accurate counting.
Lets take the Baptists for example! There are 220,000 Baptist congregations worldwide. If we didn’t group them and other denominations together, against their own desires, into manageable groups the number of Protestant denominations would well number over 500,000 or more!
All these Protestant groups, being lead by Satan, keep dividing and multiplying into more and more groups. It is so obvious that Protestantism is a cancerous growth on the Body of Christ. It amazes me that many don’t see it. In under 500 years it has corrupted, distorted, Jesus’ teachings. And it is forcing many good, God fearing Jesus loving people to be condemned to eternal damnation because of their false understanding and knowledge of Jesus and His real teachings.
As I said, all 61,000 groups use parts of the authentic doctrines of the Catholic church mixed with corrupted dogmas to make over 1,375 different doctrines and dogmas. Many of there teachings are in direct conflict with Jesus’ teachings in scripture and as taught by His real Church. They constantly revise their corrupted, distorted, and altered copies of authentic scriptures. Thereby providing them with erroneous and fatal teachings. They continue to learn and spread counterfeit beliefs attributed to Jesus. The don’t know the real interpretation of scriptures, when they find out they convert to Catholicism. They must because it is Truth!
The amazing thing is they all partially agree with the CC and all partially disagree with the CC. They don’t agree with each other on many things and keep dividing and becoming more corrupt and distorted very much like a cancer. They all agree that the Catholic church is wrong.
Now who do we know that is against Jesus? Remember that the Catholic church has taught only the truth for 2,000 years refusing to compromise the truth even to save souls 500 years ago. Today, only the Catholic sects remain faithful to all Jesus teachings. The 61,000 false denominations continue to attempt to infect Jesus real church! Only the Holy Sprit protects us from this evil identified by the uncontrolled division and multiplication and hate for Jesus real church!

I hope that helps to answer your question Grampsben! 33,000 + 28,000 = 61,000 “acceptable” but under estimated count of Protestant groups. For a more accurate estimate I can provide you with thousands of names of Protestant denominations, non-denominational and groups with their further variations such as: full gospel; reform; orthodox.

God Bless
**

Thanks for taking the time to respond with such a thoughtful post

God Bless.

 

[Realcatholicgk]

you are one very rude person the CC is not a cult and you have no reason to be like you are.One point to keep clear about the Catholic teaching is that while “The Holy Mass is a true and proper sacrifice” (De Fide), the Mass is not ANOTHER sacrifice, nor a re-sacrifice of Christ, it is the ONE offering of Christ that is RE-PRESENTED (made present) and APPLIED to us which is perpetually present before the Father in heaven. That is what Hebrews chapters 7-10 is all about. Christ is our great High Priest FOREVER who EVER LIVES to intercede for us (Heb 7:24-25). His high priestly work CONTINUES and the Mass catches us up into that heavenly Liturgy (Rev 4-5) where the ONE sacrifice of the Lamb is perpetually present before the Father.

**Hi Bill,

What you may not realize is Protestant101name is his “Joke”. He isn’t a Protestant at all! He is a member of the cult called Seventh-Day Adventists. They worship their prophet EG White. I don’t think it is actually “worship” to say, because for some strange reason they keep throwing her to the side! Originally founded on the premises of health and well-being, the Seventh Day Adventist Church promotes the belief that the human body is a temple of the Holy Spirit. Therefore, it recommends a diet taken from Leviticus, which is vegetarian and avoids alcohol and stimulants such as coffee or tea.

They deny their proohet,

They deny being vegetarians

101 denys being a SDA unless we mention it! Then He gats "angry!

Strange group! Strange beliefs!

God Bless**

 

[pneuma07]

Tis nice to be in the same boat as you, but we seem to spend far too much time focused on our areas of disagreement
!

That’s even too true Radical. Many of us ( beginning from myself) are spending 90% or more of the posts debating with christian brothers following a different tradition. I like to hope that all these debates within our christian family can be a useful training for the evangelization of our non christian brothers, that is our common task.

I wouldn’t require baptism. I wouldn’t require a bishop …

The unavoidable impression is that by postulating NRP in the early Church, you’re claiming a point of contact with an environment where you openly admit that so much is alien to your faith and liturgy experience. If you agree your affinity with ( many important aspects of) the early Church is overall smaller than what you see in the Catholic Church ( I say just “if” , maybe that’s not the case and I grossly misunderstand …) , then I wonder:

1. isn’t this a problem at all for your general view of Christianity ?
   1. isn’t it a reasonable supposition that about RP too, those early believers were ( or could be) in line with the Catholic Church rather than your own faith community ? Don’t their attitudes towards the Sacrament look substantially different from yours own, making so doubtful they had agreement with your faith community precisely on the very nature of the Eucharist itself ? I trust you have an insightful answer.

…and, of course, I would make the bold insertion in this bit.

Again St Justin’s passage fron First Apology, ch. 66:

but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Saviour, having been made flesh by the Word of God, had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh.

Two points here:

1. My impression is that negating RP here backfires towards the reality of Incarnation. The translations we used are a little different, but IMHO not substantially so ( if necessary we should go back to Greek here).
   What were they taught ? That the consecrated elements are the flesh of Jesus in like manner ( or “as”) Jesus had been made flesh. That does sound: being Incarnation real, Eucharist is RP. So is Eucharist His flesh, ( in like manner) as He did have real flesh. Such a link is stated IMHO. If you make the “bold” insertion, meaning Eucharist is NRP, that does jeopardize in this context the very reality of His historic flesh.
2. This reading does imply that still in the middle II century RP was unthinkable. Else this wording would have been very unwise.

In other words your “bold” insertions not only express your own position, but they do imply we have to consider any of the texts you decide to annotate like that being the product of an unquestioned NRP environment.
But this, in its turn, does not help at all the theory according to wich the switch from NRP to RP in the Church must have been very slow and incremental.

Wow. Debating with you is time and thought consuming.
And even more thought feeding.

Bless you Radical.

 

[Cinette]

Before the current Pope was Pope, he was known as a hardliner; and in this he has not changed, despite some of his lofty sentiments. This alone proves that the so called unity he is duping the world with is really about submission to the Catholic Pope. Period.

Pope Benedict a hardliner? Hardly!

In today’s secular world where many churches bend to the “will of the majority”, where the popular “opinion” is what “counts”, where “they are going to do it anyway so what the …?” there has been one Church which has stood firm and not compromised - the Catholic Church.

Like it or not the Pope is your pope also. He is Peter’s successor and, as such, he is the shepherd of the Christian flock - both those who are in full communion and those who are not.

The large majority of non-Catholics have inherited their faith which was passed on since Luther broke away. It is therefore not their fault that they do not have the fullness of the faith. I myself have become acutely aware of the many awsome (although flawed) theologians and the millions of faithful subjects in the non-Catholic world.

You should try to understand that the Pope is not a hardliner - there are things he cannot change even if he wanted and that is the teachings of the Church which result from the discernment of the Word of God. The Pope and the Magisterium interpret and discern doctrine for the faithful. The Pope’s job is a life of dedication and sacrifice and for him there are no working hours. He takes time off to brush his teeth, go to bed, meals, play the piano etc but most of the time he is working, thinking, praying, writing, meeting with the people who constitute the Magisterium, communicating with other leaders the world over, studying…and so on. Pope Benedict, after many years spent working in the same way for the Church - a whole lifetime of dedication - was looking forward to retirement which he intended to spend writing and resting had his world turned upside down when he was elected. But he accepted the challenge because he knew it was the will of God. He knew that those who voted for him were inspired by the Holy Spirit.

I confess that I too was led to believe he was a hardliner when he was still Cardinal. In fact, I was disappointed when he was elected Pope. Then… I began to see what a man he truly is. You see, like you, I was taken in and influenced by the media.

We are ALL influenced by the media in some way or another. At least 40% of what we read in the media is fabrication. The problem is what 40%? So all of us in one way or another will believe some of the lies. That is a big problem.

People are Protestant, Catholic, Mormon, JW, etc etc etc because they are born into the culture. Would I be Catholic today if I had not been born into the Catholic culture? Would you be Protestant? I was away from the Church for 27 years and when I returned I naturally returned to the Catholic Church because it was familiar to me. Since then I read and looked at History and learned about my church and I am very, very happy to be home to the Catholic Church.

Like me, people who were never properly catechised will drift and join other churches. I mean, have you seen the size of the Catechism of the Catholic Church?

Among those I admire most are non-Catholics who see the light and have the courage to leave everything behind and, like the fishermen, follow the one true Church, the Catholic Church. They suffer rejection by friends and family. It hurts. But they know they are doing what is right. For every one of these how many stay where they are because they can’t give up what they have and take up the challenge to convert to the Catholic Church.

At the heart of our belief is the Eucharist, the source and summit of our Catholic faith.

 

[Protestant101]

Hi Bill,

**What you may not realize is Protestant101name is his “Joke”. He isn’t a Protestant at all! He is a member of the cult called Seventh-Day Adventists. They worship their prophet EG White. I don’t think it is actually “worship” to say, because for some strange reason they keep throwing her to the side! Originally founded on the premises of health and well-being, the Seventh Day Adventist Church promotes the belief that the human body is a temple of the Holy Spirit. Therefore, it recommends a diet taken from Leviticus, which is vegetarian and avoids alcohol and stimulants such as coffee or tea. **

They deny their proohet,

**They deny being vegetarians **

**101 denys being a SDA unless we mention it! Then He gats "angry! **

Strange group! Strange beliefs!

God Bless

Hi Bill. RealCatholicgk has actually made his own sick joke here by calling himself a “real catholic.”

No. I don’t get “angry” when you mention that I am a Seventh-day Adventist; in fact I am proud of it. And I openly proclaim it here on your Catholic Forum.

The concept of literally eating the literal flesh of Jesus is heretical falsehood. The Lord’s Supper is not falsehood; only this whacky part of the cultic doctrines of Catholicism where we call a piece of bread “Jesus.”