Protestants: Do you believe that Christ is truly present in the communion elements of bread and wine?

[latingirl]

I used to be Protestant (I’m sure I’ve said this before, sorry to be repetitive) and one thing that led me towards the Catholic Church was their coherence with the Bible. Only the Catholics are able to look at the Bible as a bigger whole, they are good at placing things in their context. They have a unity, supported by Scripture, and supported by Christ** in the Scripture** that frankly I believe, intimidates other Churches.
While Catholics have a history wrought with strife, abuses of power and persecution- they also have a history that is beautiful, rich and full in truth. Sometimes it takes a while for us to be as our Father wants us to be but still after, 2,000 years, the Catholic Church is a bastion of unity and a beacon of wisdom.
Martin Luther himself did not like any person picking up the Bible and claiming to have full understanding of it.
The Bible itself encourages the reading of scriptures instructed by a teacher: Consider the dialogue between the Apostle Philip and the eunuch:
“And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest? And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me?”
– Acts 8:30-31

Christ instituted a Church on earth that would proclaim and preserve his word.
“There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.” -Ephesians 4:4-6

That church is NOT broken into thousands and thousands of denominations…

 

[Cinette]

Non Catholic,

 

[benedictus2]

I’ve also eaten bread, but never cannibalized Jesus, which you don’t really do anyway, but worse you imagine you do and find pleasure in it thinking it brings you closer to God…at the end of the day it was a bland wafer.

The one you eat is indeed just a bland wafer. Not so what we eat. We eat the Body and Blood of Christ and we have that by the authority of His word. We have not cannibalised Jesus. We took Him at His word.

You decided to ignore Him. It is like He is telling you eat my flesh, drink my blood and you are going “Shhhh. You don’t mean that. What you really want to say is that I must believe in you”. And Jesus just keeps pressing on saying again “Amen, amen I say to you…” and you keep going. No Lord, stop it. Tthat’s not what you mean at all.

Euphemisms were commonly used by Jesus, which was the point you missed on the previous post such as door, gate, and shepherd.

And as I have replied to you before. Every one who heard them knew he was talking in metaphors (not euphemisms) by the way. That is why you do not hear them complaining.

The word “eat” was a common Jewish euphemism, which Jesus used to drive home the point that He is the only “true” food from Heaven. There is nothing more to it than that. He tells us what he means before and after in the context of the chapter.

The word “eat” by itself can indeed be understood in the way you say. However, the entire phrase “eat my flesh” cannot be understood metaphorically in that manner because in Jewish idiom " to eat one’s flesh" means to do someone an injury. And if you place that Jesus discourse, it would look like he was saying “If you injur me, I will give you eternal life” which makes Him sound very stupid indeed. And you and I know He is far from being that.

**John 6:29 **Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.” - very consistent with the salvation message, which this passage is more about than the Lord’s supper, which was not implemented until later.

Yes, and notice how he says this very early in the discourse. Because it will require a deep belief in Jesus to be able to accept the hard teaching that was to follow. Those who could not accept the hard teaching left because they did not believe enough in Jesus.

He is in actual fact preparing them for the verses that will ask them to eat His flesh and drink His blood.

John 6:35 Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me will never thirst. - Consistent with the gospel message.

Yes, very consistent. How? How will we not hunger and how will we not thirst. Because He will give us his flesh and blood to drink.

If you come to him you will not hunger precisely because He will give you His flesh to eat, If you believe in Him you you will never thirst precisely because He will give you His blood to drink.

 

[benedictus2]

**John **6:40 “For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life” - again consistent with the gospel message.
John 6:51 “I am the living bread that came down out of heaven; if anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread also which I will give for the life of the world is My flesh.” - Jesus uses an analogy and a euphemism here to drive home the point - (living bread - analogous to Him being eternal life) and (eats - consistent with “believe”, “behold” “comes to me”)

**John **6:52 Now the Jews, like Catholics and others, did not get it (52 Then the Jews began to argue with one another, saying, “How can this man give us His flesh to eat?”,) so He makes it harder for them because He already knows they don’t get it or believe, just you do not.

Why have you left out verses 53 to 58, again? After the Jews complained, did he say, No you’ve got it all wrong. What I meant was etc,etc… No.** Instead of softening up his language, he hammers it again several times.** Look at the following verses:

53 Jesus said to them, "Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you.

54 Whoever **eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day. **

55 For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink.

56 **Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him. **

57 Just as the living Father sent me and I have life because of the Father, so also** the one who feeds on me will have life because of me. **

58 This is the bread that came down from heaven. Unlike your ancestors who ate and still died, whoever eats this bread will live forever." "

In verse 64 He explains the problem which is unbelief - consistent with the gospel message. “But there are some of you who do not believe.” and verse 65 He explains the sovereignty of God in how that truth is revealed.
Notice what Peter says "Simon Peter answered Him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have words of eternal life. " Peter understood the message and its meaning - “words of eternal life” Is Jesus not the Word that brings eternal life?

Not quite right. Peter said "You (meaning) Christ has the words of eternal life. He is not referring here to Jesus as the Word but rather that Jesus “speaks” the words of eternal life. He did not say "You ARE the Word of eternal life but rather "you HAVE the words (plural) of eternal life.
And what are His words of eternal life? Eat my Flesh. Drink my blood.

One must look at whole of Scripture, but the unregenerate religious mind always perverts the truth and will always continue to do so because the natural person does not and cannot understand the Word. That can be changed through the grace of God unto faith through Jesus.

Yes, one must look at the whole scripture, but what you are doing is not looking at the whole scripture. Rather you are picking passages here there and everywhere so that you can dispute Christ’s own words.

 

[Protestant101]

ufamtobie;4711106:

As I understood Non Catholic’s profile to mean is that he has no religion only a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. Not that he belongs to a Church called None Personal relationship with Jesus Christ! LOL

Now you show your true colors!! (Holy, holy, holy)

 

[benedictus2]

He already knew those who would not believe and “eat” is a common euphemism used by the Jews; the one’s that believe and understand, like Peter and the rest of the disciples that stayed understood these were the “words of life”. John 6 has more to do with the message of salvation than the Lords supper, which was not implemented till later.

John 6 does have to do with the message of salvation. How? Because if we eat Christ’s flesh and drink His blood we will have eternal life.

But it is also about the last supper. This discourse was done one year at Passover before the last supper. Take a look at the synoptic accounts of the last supper. There they were having the Passover Meal which by the way has a very precise order to it and all of a sudden Jesus goes, This is my Body, This is my Blood. So totally not part of the order of the Seder Meal But no one of them went " Say what??!!!".
If you look at these gospels (Matthew, Mark and Luke) there was no building up to this moment at all. His words are are just so totally out of whack with the rest of the narrative.

But not so to the Apostles because they were prepared one year before through this discourse in John 6.

As consistent with the gospel, the flesh and blood are means God used to accomplish the work of salvation, which is why we are to “do this in remembrance” of Me; another reminder to believers of the price God paid in the great sacrifice that brought believers salvation.

Yes that is true. The flesh and blood are means God used to accomplish the work of salvation. Again, How? According to Christ Himself, when we eat his flesh and drink his Hlood we will have eternal life. To have eternal life is to be saved. So in order to be saved, one must eat His flesh and drink His blood. Says who? Says Christ.

 

[benedictus2]

Indeed, but according to you, apparently what Catholics believe He gave as his Real flesh for the life of the world in your mind is symbolic.

he Gave His symbolic flesh for the life of the world.

Perhaps he didn’t suffer on the cross as well. That was probably all just symbolic?

 

[benedictus2]

LOL, you are funny. I will tell her how “sorry” you are.

Hey, if you know me personally, you will know that everyone to me is either a Sweetheart, Petal, Darling, Honey, Possum, Blossom, Gorgeous.

Though some have commented that I probably only call them that because in my old age, I’ve forgotten their names.

 

[NonCatholic]

Non Catholic,

 

[Realcatholicgk]

"I" refers to the whole Person here, including “body and blood.” It is no different than Jesus saying “I am the Bread…” or “the flesh” or “the wine” (blood).

Jesus goes on to say, just as He did with the “bread” “blood” or “flesh” that I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved," Joh 10:9 There are many more verses which will agree with what I have said. **
Hi Protestant,

Keeping warm? it was 75 degrees here today!

I will type this slowly for you. No where in the scriptures, the real ones or even the distorted corrupted bible that all counterfeit churches follows does Jesus ever say:

“This door is me! Knock on my body and be saved!”

He did say:“I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you**. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him. Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your forefathers ate manna and died, but he who feeds on this bread will live forever.” He said this while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum. John 6: 53-59

He didn’t say the Word was His body. Nor the door was his body. He said the Bread was His Body! Jesus did not lie, His real church doesn’t lie.

The Blessed sacrament is a paradosis that Jesus handed down to his real followers. He instituted it at the Last Supper. He is the one who set it up so that it would reflect the unity in the church that He established.

Obviously from what Jesus said without the real presence there can be no eternal life. That can only come from His real church so I must agree with the Protestants that say, in their case it is only a symbol. Their entire belief system is only a symbol, an imitation, a distorted representation, of the real church anyway!
Grape juice isn’t wine, ministers aren’t priests! They have no authority to teach no matter how often or loudly they declare that they do. Jesus didn’t give them any authority. they do not have the power to forgive sins, save souls or change bread and wine into the body and blood of Christ. All they can do is pretend they are Christians. They actually should do a better job of it like the Anglicans do! At least they pretend they are really christians!

 

[benedictus2]

"I" refers to the whole Person here, including “body and blood.” It is no different than Jesus saying “I am the Bread…” or “the flesh” or “the wine” (blood).

Hallelujah! I think you are finally getting it. You are right. “I” refers to the whole person. When we eat the bread and drink the wine, we are not eating bits and pieces of Christ. We are eating His glorious ressurected body entire and whole. Body, Soul and Divinity.

 

[NonCatholic]

I used to be Protestant (I’m sure I’ve said this before, sorry to be repetitive) and one thing that led me towards the Catholic Church was their coherence with the Bible. Only the Catholics are able to look at the Bible as a bigger whole, they are good at placing things in their context. They have a unity, supported by Scripture, and supported by Christ** in the Scripture** that frankly I believe, intimidates other Churches.
While Catholics have a history wrought with strife, abuses of power and persecution- they also have a history that is beautiful, rich and full in truth. Sometimes it takes a while for us to be as our Father wants us to be but still after, 2,000 years, the Catholic Church is a bastion of unity and a beacon of wisdom.
Martin Luther himself did not like any person picking up the Bible and claiming to have full understanding of it.
The Bible itself encourages the reading of scriptures instructed by a teacher: Consider the dialogue between the Apostle Philip and the eunuch:
“And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest? And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me?”
– Acts 8:30-31

Christ instituted a Church on earth that would proclaim and preserve his word.
“There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
One Lord, one faith, one baptism,
One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.” -Ephesians 4:4-6

That church is NOT broken into thousands and thousands of denominations…

Hi Latin Girl,

Who has ever claimed to fully understand the Bible? They would be fooling themselves, this book come from an infinite mind to finite minds, but there is much we can understand, but not without the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, which comes only to those God has chosen.

Quote: “Only the Catholics are able to look at the Bible as a bigger whole, they are good at placing things in their context.”

It helps if you are like the Bereans and search the Scripture to see if things are true. I have found the very opposite to be true in this forum, almost without exception.

 

[Chris_LaRock]

Why have you left out verses 53 to 58, again? After the Jews complained, did he say, No you’ve got it all wrong. What I meant was etc,etc… No.** Instead of softening up his language, he hammers it again several times.** Look at the following verses:

53 Jesus said to them, "Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you.

54 Whoever **eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day. **

55 For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink.

56 **Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him. **

57 Just as the living Father sent me and I have life because of the Father, so also** the one who feeds on me will have life because of me. **

58 This is the bread that came down from heaven. Unlike your ancestors who ate and still died, whoever eats this bread will live forever." "

Not quite right. Peter said "You (meaning) Christ has the words of eternal life. He is not referring here to Jesus as the Word but rather that Jesus “speaks” the words of eternal life. He did not say "You ARE the Word of eternal life but rather "you HAVE the words (plural) of eternal life.
And what are His words of eternal life? Eat my Flesh. Drink my blood.

Yes, one must look at the whole scripture, but what you are doing is not looking at the whole scripture. Rather you are picking passages here there and everywhere so that you can dispute Christ’s own words.

I asked a JW about that. He was stumped for a while, and then said,
“Well, that just means that Christ’s atonement has great power.”

Jesus saying, “Eat my flesh and drink my blood” only means His atonement has great power???

 

[NonCatholic]

Hallelujah! I think you are finally getting it. You are right. “I” refers to the whole person. When we eat the bread and drink the wine, we are not eating bits and pieces of Christ. We are eating His glorious ressurected body entire and whole. Body, Soul and Divinity.

I wish you understood what a serious sin this is. The person that administers it was disqualified in Hebrews 7,8 and 9.

 

[benedictus2]

You can pray all you want, but until one has received the Holy Spirit; he cannot understand the Word. Eat is a common Jewish euphemism, which Jesus used on many occasions…this was no exception. Eat my flesh and drink my blood…“take up your cross and follow me”…the more I study John 6, which is a great deal since I’ve been in this forum, the less this has a thing to do with the Lord’s supper…it is about salvation.

As per the highlighted text. True. You however are presuming that you have been given the Holy Spirit. The only instance that we can be sure that Holy Spirit is there is in the Church. Christ promised her the Holy Spirit to guide her into all truth.

Also, the gift of Holy Spirit are many and varied. The gift of understanding scripture may not have been given to you. You are making a huge assumption that when YOU read, the Holy Spirit is guiding you.

 

[Cinette]

Cinette;4711328:

Now you show your true colors!! (Holy, holy, holy)

What on earth do you mean by that?

I would be interested to know

Thank you
Cinette

 

[NonCatholic]

As per the highlighted text. True. You however are presuming that you have been given the Holy Spirit. The only instance that we can be sure that Holy Spirit is there is in the Church. Christ promised her the Holy Spirit to guide her into all truth.

Also, the gift of Holy Spirit are many and varied. The gift of understanding scripture may not have been given to you. You are making a huge assumption that when YOU read, the Holy Spirit is guiding you.

You say I don’t have the Holy Spirit because I don’t belong to your religious organization…I don’t remember that in the Bible…do you? The next time you judge someone’s soul, which is very implicit in your statement, remember two things: 1) You are not God 2) not very Chrisitan

 

[benedictus2]

What does it taste like? A bland wafer and red wine Sorry, couldn’t help myself.

Aaah, the protestants utter lack of understanding of mystery!

 

[benedictus2]

I wish you understood what a serious sin this is. The person that administers it was disqualified in Hebrews 7,8 and 9.

Only because you misunderstand the nature of the priesthood.

 

[thirdn6]

Realcatholicgk:
Realcatholicgk,

I think we’re almost of the same colour. We posted the same bible verse one time in this thread.
You call their churches “counterfeits”- I once call them on my posts “clones”.

I’m not worried with P101. He didn’t change a bit since my first post in CAF. His belief’s so ‘black’. I’m worried about these “grayish whites” which had become “almost Catholics”.

But you’re here.
God bless.