Protestants: Do you believe that Christ is truly present in the communion elements of bread and wine?

[Realcatholicgk]

hmgs1:

This is the kind of bickering that I think plays right into the hands of Old Scratch and has people nodding their heads about the church when they walk out of seeing the Golden Compass at the cinema.

First, remember my denomination supports the concept of the Real Presence of Christ in the elements, though it is not a fall on your sword part of our theological doctrine.

Now, let me ask my Catholic colleagues (ONLY) a simple question, YES or NO with explanation (no cop-out answers like “well, that will never happen”):

If you stand in heaven before God to receive judgment and learn from the Almighty that the elements were symbolic only and were never changed into the body and blood of Christ, will God damn you to Hell for that mistake?

**

Hi Hmgs,

Bill, SGM (US Army Retired) RC ,Reporting for duty! **
**NO!

The way I understand it, that one act would be considered in my judgement if I willful disregarded Jesus’ words. although it isn’t my place to judge even myself. If the scriptures said that it wasn’t Jesus body and blood and I foolishly thought it was there is not condemnation for that in scripture or oral tradition.
However, if you stand in heaven before God to receive judgment and learn from the Almighty that the elements were NOT symbolic only and WERE changed into the real body and blood of Christ, will God damn you to Hell for that mistake?
YES! Because it would not be a “mistake” It is wilful disregard of Jesus warning and commandment, and He doesn’t lie! In the scriptures Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.** Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him. Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. This is the bread that came down from heaven. John 6: 53-58

 

[Realcatholicgk]

**
Hi Look,

Happy New Year! **

The totality of the bible theme and not on a selected few scriptures is the real truth of understanding is.

**
The scriptures, as correctly interpreted by the Catholic church, explains the real truths as God wanted them revealed! Nor individual words or a book but the interpretation of the words are what is important! **

Listen, everybody has a belief, whether it be of washing of feet to partaking of the Holy Communion to water baptisms of infants or of adults.

**Obviously, but belief isn’t truth! **

The key to all of it is that God made us to be intelligently enabled at a cost. That cost, cost Him His Son!

But the good news is that by His Son, we are able to maintain our individual intelligence without he cost of our eternal condemnation as it was from the start.

What all does that mean in simplicity?

God’s Son died for all mankind, not just for the righteous ones but for the unrighteous alike.

Jesus’ Death was enough to pay for every sin ever committted. But that gift has to be accepted IF the person wants to be saved! It isn’t forced on anyone! The unrighteous are not saved, if they do not accept Jesus’ gift!

If then that is the case, we are all brothers and sisters of which Jesus commands us to love them even if they are our enemies.

For Jesus came to set the example of a Godly creature and not one of an earthly creature.

As stated, that is a Heresy look!

So, I am neither Catholic or a protestant, or anything else mankind may label me,

That would make you a Protestant, look! Probably non-denominational. Many people pride themselves in being “non-denominational.” “We don’t belong to any (fill in put-down here, such as “man-made,” “hierarchical,” etc.) denomination,” they will imply that the whole concept of an organized denomination is “corrupt” and counter to biblical Christianity. However, in trying to escape being in a “denomination,” they have really found themselves in the same situation. Let me explain.
If you look at the basic meaning of the word denomination, you will find it simply means “designation” or “categorization.” Thus, by definition, “non” denominational would mean not designating or not categorizing. The reality is that it is very hard to avoid designation, because even the title non-denominational is itself a clear designation, designed to distinguish a church body from other groups. The same case is true if we define denomination as categorization. Many feel that by leaving a large, organized, Christian body, they are, “breaking away from the spirit of denominationalism,” i.e. freeing themselves from categories and divisions.

… But simply a believer in Jesus, who sees all religious beliefs as in their own right, element and subject to change depending on their spiritual quest for truth.

**
I am really glad to hear that, look. Finaly someone that sees all religious beliefs . Let me ask you, of the counterfeit Protestants 1,375 doctrines and dogmas which do you consider to be the top ten? **

**In the Catholic church, Small ‘t’ traditions, can be changed and have been many times. We also have Capital “T” Traditions . The HS guides the CC in making the decisions on changing small traditions. In 2,000 years, capital ‘T’ Traditions have not changed! Oh, the Protestants started with 5 doctrines 500 years ago, but I guess you knew that! **

Here is what Paul said: 2Cr 11:22 Are they Hebrews? so [am] I. Are they Israelites? so [am] I. Are they the seed of Abraham? so [am] I.

Was Paul a Roman citizen? Paul was for all, for the glory of Christ, that with Christ in him, he might see them all as brothers and sisters.

Be what you want to be, worship where you want to worship, but love God and neighbor as He first loved us.

**Boy, that would be a sure way to condemn yourself to eternal damnation if I ever heard one! If you Love God, you must worship Him like he commanded 2,000 years ago when he established His church! Everyone needs to turn away from Satan and his lies! **

**
Yes, we are all taught the Greatest Commandment! And must obey it! But that doesn’t guarantee salvation. Remember the goats and sheep will flock together. God will judge the Rightist. Do not let the devil deceive you!

Since the Irag war 7,495,858 American Babies have died from Abortion. Our country is in danger of obtaining God’s rightful wrath! It might even have started. Lets pray for our country and the murdered babies!

God Bless

**

Peace>>>AJ

 

[Realcatholicgk]

**Hi hmgs,
Happy New Year! **

I do believe &c…&c… because God can do all things, not just what the Catholic, Presbyterian or Baptist churches want him to do.

**But unlike Protestants the Catholic church can only do what the HS wants it to do! **

The problem being &c…&c…&c…,verses the Real Church the RCC.

**
I know that you must mistakenly think that even though your church was founded around 1909 that it is a continuation of the great revival that began on the day of Pentecost at Jerusalem, A.D. 33. You mistakenly believe your doctrines are founded upon the foundation of the Apostles and Prophets, Jesus Christ being the chief cornerstone. That describes the Catholic church. Your’s is founded rather on the corrupted, altered distorted book called the KJV of the bible! **

Click on KJV Bible

Having once been evangelical &C…&C…&C…He chooses to reveal himself to them.

** He actually chooses to reveal Himself throught the Catholic church! All others are counterfeit, imitation and corrupt due to throwing the baby (Jesus) out with the bathwater, (the churches faults) Like in John’s gospel the left jesus, and lost the real prsense and all the good when they left the real church! **

And the Catholic Church is no different. Many evangelicals believe the earth was created in seven 24-hour periods of time,

**
And it might have been, even though it violates all know laws of science. We both agree God can do what He wants.**

while the Vatican has specifically dismissed intelligent design …

**It had to because that concept violates the revealed truths of creation:

The CC’s teaching magisterium clearly identified essential facts whose literal and historical meaning Catholics may not call into question because they touch upon fundamental Christian teachings. The 1909 Pontifical Biblical Commission affirms these facts include:

“…the creation of all things which was accomplished by God at the beginning of time; the special creation of man; the formation of the first woman from man; the unity of the human race; the original happiness of our first parents in a state of justice, integrity, and immortality; the divine command laid upon man to prove his obedience; the transgression of that divine command at the instigation of the devil under the form of a serpent; the fall of our first parents from their primitive state of innocence; and the promise of a future Redeemer.” (from Acta apostolis sedis, 1 [1909 Pontifical Biblical Commission], pages 567-69, translated in Rome and the Study of Scripture, 7th edition, and cited from Origin of the Human Species by Dennis Bonnette, page 145)

**

and stated faith in evolution are not in conflict. Why?

** Theologian Ludwig Ott, Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, comments:

"The doctrine of evolution based on the theistic conception of the world, which traces matter and life to God’s causality and assumes that organic being, developed from originally created seed-powers (St. Augustine) or from stem-forms (doctrine of descent), according to God’s plan, is compatible with the doctrine of Revelation. However, as regards man, a special creation by God is demanded, which must extend at least to the spiritual soul [creatio hominis peculiaris Denz 2123]. Individual Fathers, especially St. Augustine, accepted a certain development of living creatures…The question of the descent of the human body from the animal kingdom first appeared under the influence of the modern theory of evolution. The Biblical text does not exclude this theory. Just as in the account of the creation of the world, one can, in the account of the creation of man, distinguish between the per se inspired religious truth that man, both body and soul, was created by God, and the per accidens inspired, stark anthropomorphistic representation of the mode and manner of the Creation. **

Doesn’t the Pope believe God can do anything, to include create the universe in seven days?

**Yes, it that was important the church would rule on it! But Our salvation rests on jesus, not creation! **

The point you missed &C…&C…&C…we totally lose sight of them.

**The only time in the entire NT where Jesus kept repeating himself, over and over to insure people understood exactly what He was saying and you “dismiss” it? OK. It appears that Satan is alive and well, I can tell!

“When the Devil quotes Scriptures, it’s not, really, to deceive, but simply that the masses are so ignorant of theology that somebody
has to teach them the elementary texts before he can seduce them.” - Paul Goodman
**

And what an image we portray to outsiders as a bonus. Why would anyone want to be Christian given how nasty we tend to treat each other?

** Well, Bill, let there be peace on earth and let it begin with us! You know that hunger for God deep inside each of us? It is what makes people want to be Catholics. Our souls yearn for God. That little emptiness you feel deep inside can only be filled by Jesus in the Eucharist!

“The thing that makes me the saddest is watching people receive communion in the hand.” – Blessed Mother Teresa of Calcutta (As reported by Fr. George Rutler in 1989 when he asked her, “What do you think is the worst problem in the world today?” )

**
I swear Gandhi must truly have spoken with the Holy Spirit when he said, “I love your Christ, but I do not like your Christians. They are so unlike your Christ.”

**“It it weren’t for Christians, I’d be a Christian.” - Mahatma Ghandi

God Bless**

Amen.

 

[look3467]

I swear Gandhi must truly have spoken with the Holy Spirit when he said, “I love your Christ, but I do not like your Christians. They are so unlike your Christ.”>>>Bill Gray

Bill,

I would say that the only human part of Gandi’s remarks was: “but I do not like your Christians”.
Perhaps his only fault!
For Christ could not condemn what he came to save!

I enjoyed your post which leads me to believe that you have not just come to those conclusions, but because God has seen fit to reveal them to you.

The truth of God’s love is hidden from us by the will of mankind, and only when we want more understanding is God challenged to reveal it to us.

Not only that, but I assume that your work with many of differing faiths in the midst of the face of death help develop your understanding.

Peace>>>AJ

 

[look3467]

I am really glad to hear that, look. Finaly someone that sees all religious beliefs . Let me ask you, of the counterfeit Protestants 1,375 doctrines and dogmas which do you consider to be the top ten? >>>Realcatholicgk

First of all, I wish you a very happy new year as well, and may your life prosper as your spirit prospers.

A simple question this is for me, but first to say the word counterfeit is to place oneself above all and all others as non worthy of gods consideration.

There are no counterfeit denominations, but counterfeit hearts!
What good is a religion if it does not have a heart for God?

God looks at the heart, or does He look at our religion?

Boy, that would be a sure way to condemn yourself to eternal damnation if I ever heard one! If you Love God, you must worship Him like he commanded 2,000 years ago when he established His church! Everyone needs to turn away from Satan and his lies!

Realcatholicgk

If my heart is changed for Him, I can worship God anywhere, in a closet, anytime of day, month and year.

God is worshiped in Spirit, from the heart, and in truth, understanding His love.

Yes, we are all taught the Greatest Commandment! And must obey it! But that doesn’t guarantee salvation. Remember the goats and sheep will flock together. God will judge the Rightist. Do not let the devil deceive you!>>>Realcatholicgk

My only answer to you is for you to continue as you are in your beliefs, because there is where your strengths are.

Since the Irag war 7,495,858 American Babies have died from Abortion. Our country is in danger of obtaining God’s rightful wrath! It might even have started. Lets pray for our country and the murdered babies!>>>Realcatholicgk

I am against abortion and it is up to us to right the situation. If we fail, than God will step in and make His own corrections, of which all of us may share in the consequences.

Peace>>>AJ

 

[Realcatholicgk]

First of all, I wish you a very happy new year as well, and may your life prosper as your spirit prospers.
**Thank you! Look!

**
A simple question this is for me, but first to say the word counterfeit is to place oneself above all and all others as non worthy of gods consideration.
**
That just isn’t so, look! It is to share a truth! You only have to look at history! What is true is true. It isn’t arrogant or proud. It is only truth! Remember that before 1517AD, there was One Christian Church “ONE” with several different sects. (They are still firmly together even today! ). While some good people were attempting to right some wrong practices in the Church, the Devil saw this as a change to infect the christian church and steal souls from the real church. That split 500 years ago have become 33,000 counterfeit denominations, and non-denominations with 28,000 sub denominations, and various associations, conferences, conventions, fellowships, groups, sect, cults and unions. All 61,000 having 1,375 doctrines and dogmas They all partially agree with the CC and all partially disagree with the CC. They all agree tahat their church is correct and the real church established by Jesus is false!
So I ask you who the heck is right? The church that has taught only the truth for 2,000 years refusing to compromise the truth and remained faithful to Jesus teachings,or 61,000 false denominations teaching over 1,375 doctrines.

Remember look, You can copy money but if it doesn’t have the backing of the authorized issurer it is counterfeit. It can’t be spent to buy anything! and is worthless.

You can imitate and copy Christianity, but if it doesn’t have the backing of the Holy Catholic Church it is counterfeit. It has no authority. It can’t, by its own means, be used to obtain salvation!

Only the Catholic Church offers the real communion. The Eucharist! In it, Jesus is present both Physically and Spiritually. He is “Completely” present. Your Lord and God is Here for you to worship and eat as He commanded you must to obtain eternal salvation. Only true believers understand that because the devil keeps his followers blinded to the truth! I am 2 years older than you. A disabled Combat veteran who has seen and experienced evil! I do not say that most Protestants are anything but God loving, people deserving of salvation. In fact many Protestants are “better” Catholics than members of my faith! I don’t believe in counterfeit hearts! Satan forced the division which like a cancer on the body of Christ has multiplied and divided uncontrolable for 500 years. **

There are no counterfeit denominations, but counterfeit hearts! What good is a religion if it does not have a heart for God? God looks at the heart, or does He look at our religion?

**He judges our hearts! He looks to see if we obey His commandments and laws. Your “non-denomination” group is a copy of a copies copy! The KJV Bible is corrupted, distorted and wrong. Even your own people are starting to realize that! It isn’t God’s word anymore! **

Click on: KJV Bible

[SIGN]
**coun ter feit **'kaunt-er-fit: to imitate or copy closely
especially with intent to deceive.[/SIGN]
**
The greatest method of deception is to counterfeit. And the master of counterfeit and deception is Satan. **

**
The Bible in 2 Corinthians 11:14-15 warns of Satan’s counterfeit: “And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness;. . .” Isaiah 14: 14 tells of Satan’s ultimate counterfeit: “. . . I will BE LIKE the most High.”

Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’ Mt 7:22**

If my heart is changed for Him, I can worship God anywhere, in a closet, anytime of day, month and year.

If you are sure it is God and not the imitator who copied the real church? Who can instruct you? Yourself?

God is worshiped in Spirit, from the heart, and in truth, understanding His love.

**
Nice words and true but not applicable! You heard about the “blind leading the blind”, by which it is meant that the person in charge of the situation knows no more about it than those whom he is leading. This is Biblical in origin, coming from Jesus: “Let them alone; they are blind leaders of the blind. And if a blind man leads a blind man, both will fall in a pit.”

That pit is eternal damnation my friend Look!**

My only answer to you is for you to continue as you are in your beliefs, because there is where your strengths are.

**My plea to you is open your eyes and see the truth! The Catholic church is where Jesus really is, Body and Spirit! However I rather you be a “sincere” Protestant that an “bad” Catholic. Search your soul, feel the hunger! **

I am against abortion and it is up to us to right the situation. If we fail, than God will step in and make His own corrections, of which all of us may share in the consequences.

**AMEN My friend! AMEN!

God Bless**
Peace>>>AJ

 

[ufamtobie]

I don’t have to check or wreck anything.

I do believe in the Real Presence of Christ in the elements. I do not believe there is definitive evidence they exist because of transubstantiation. However, I also do not believe there is definitive evidence to deny they exist due to transubstantiation.

 

[hmgs1]

Ufamtobie, the only thing I have learned from this thread is that it is time to leave. I came here hoping both to gain the respect of my Catholic brothers, and also to increase my respect for the Roman church thru a better understanding of its theology and traditions. Instead, I have lost what respect I had for the Catholic Church.

The Messiah I worship is inclusive, compassionate, forgiving and totally devoid of all the human vices that mandate equity and restitution before grace can be given. The God you describe seems petty, vengeful and menacing, more like Baal than Christ. If this is truly the personality of the Roman Catholic Church and its God, there is no reason for me to remain and waste everyone’s time.

Instead I’ll continue to “dismiss” the issue of real presence and stupidly continue work at food banks and Presbyterian Disaster Relief. The New Testament does exhort care for the poor, infirm and destitute over 160 times, but if I have my priorities wrong and am damned to Hell for it, at least the company and conversation will be first rate. Gandhi will likely be there as well Serapion, Eusebius of Caesarea, not to mention Meinrad Scherer-Emunds, Editor of US Catholic Magazine. Personally I don’t know why you haven’t urged excommunication if not execution of that heretic given his views on the Eucharist. You can find them in an article at this URL:

uscatholic.claretians.org/site/News2?abbr=usc_&page=NewsArticle&id=5724&printer_friendly=1

Finally a true, well documented slice of military history for thought. In 1808 Napoleon’s army recovered the body of General Sir John Moore after the British defeat at la Corunna in Spain. Knowing Moore to be both a courageous captain and a man of the highest honor, the French prepared a military funeral for him, only to be denied burial in a nearby church by the local priest who would not allow this Anglican heretic to despoil holy Catholic ground. Likewise, when French Marshal Michel Ney recovered several hundred refugees (British wounded, women, children), they were denied shelter at a local convent by Mother Superior for precisely the same reason. At this point Ney, himself Catholic, politely told Mother Superior that he would honor her wishes and instead her nuns would be privileged to care for 150 French ROMAN CATHOLIC grenadiers, some of the toughest troops in Europe and men who wore the grime of many months of long campaigns. Immediately a miracle happened, God touched Mother Superior’s heart and she reconsidered her position, eagerly caring for the British refugees until the could be returned to England.

Honestly, I came here to communicate, learn, not to convert, but I think you owe it to yourself to ask whether the Catholic Church today is still that little convent in Spain and whether the Church’s greatest need is not another Marshal Ney.

Amen and goodby.

 

[zzz]

A truly excellent post, Bill!!..thank you!!

 

[Robbinson]

Ufamtobie, the only thing I have learned from this thread is that it is time to leave. I came here hoping both to gain the respect of my Catholic brothers, and also to increase my respect for the Roman church thru a better understanding of its theology and traditions. Instead, I have lost what respect I had for the Catholic Church.

The Messiah I worship is inclusive, compassionate, forgiving and totally devoid of all the human vices that mandate equity and restitution before grace can be given. The God you describe seems petty, vengeful and menacing, more like Baal than Christ. If this is truly the personality of the Roman Catholic Church and its God, there is no reason for me to remain and waste everyone’s time.

Instead I’ll continue to “dismiss” the issue of real presence and stupidly continue work at food banks and Presbyterian Disaster Relief. The New Testament does exhort care for the poor, infirm and destitute over 160 times, but if I have my priorities wrong and am damned to Hell for it, at least the company and conversation will be first rate. Gandhi will likely be there as well Serapion, Eusebius of Caesarea, not to mention Meinrad Scherer-Emunds, Editor of US Catholic Magazine. Personally I don’t know why you haven’t urged excommunication if not execution of that heretic given his views on the Eucharist. You can find them in an article at this URL:

uscatholic.claretians.org/site/News2?abbr=usc_&page=NewsArticle&id=5724&printer_friendly=1

Finally a true, well documented slice of military history for thought. In 1808 Napoleon’s army recovered the body of General Sir John Moore after the British defeat at la Corunna in Spain. Knowing Moore to be both a courageous captain and a man of the highest honor, the French prepared a military funeral for him, only to be denied burial in a nearby church by the local priest who would not allow this Anglican heretic to despoil holy Catholic ground. Likewise, when French Marshal Michel Ney recovered several hundred refugees (British wounded, women, children), they were denied shelter at a local convent by Mother Superior for precisely the same reason. At this point Ney, himself Catholic, politely told Mother Superior that he would honor her wishes and instead her nuns would be privileged to care for 150 French ROMAN CATHOLIC grenadiers, some of the toughest troops in Europe and men who wore the grime of many months of long campaigns. Immediately a miracle happened, God touched Mother Superior’s heart and she reconsidered her position, eagerly caring for the British refugees until the could be returned to England.

Honestly, I came here to communicate, learn, not to convert, but I think you owe it to yourself to ask whether the Catholic Church today is still that little convent in Spain and whether the Church’s greatest need is not another Marshal Ney.

Amen and goodby.

Bill

Please don’t leave- I think/hope you have seen many posts with charity here and with the offer of fellowship. We need to learn from each other.

Blessings,

Brian

 

[thirdn6]

Bill

Please don’t leave- I think/hope you have seen many posts with charity here and with the offer of fellowship. We need to learn from each other.

Blessings,

Brian

Maybe he want everything served on a silver platter… Don’t want to sweat for the ‘gold’.

I hoped he ain’t too old to show resentment.
Just kidding, colonel!

 

[ufamtobie]

Ufamtobie, the only thing I have learned from this thread is that it is time to leave. I came here hoping both to gain the respect of my Catholic brothers, and also to increase my respect for the Roman church thru a better understanding of its theology and traditions. Instead, I have lost what respect I had for the Catholic Church.

The Messiah I worship is inclusive, compassionate, forgiving and totally devoid of all the human vices that mandate equity and restitution before grace can be given. The God you describe seems petty, vengeful and menacing, more like Baal than Christ. If this is truly the personality of the Roman Catholic Church and its God, there is no reason for me to remain and waste everyone’s time.

Instead I’ll continue to “dismiss” the issue of real presence and stupidly continue work at food banks and Presbyterian Disaster Relief. The New Testament does exhort care for the poor, infirm and destitute over 160 times, but if I have my priorities wrong and am damned to Hell for it, at least the company and conversation will be first rate. Gandhi will likely be there as well Serapion, Eusebius of Caesarea, not to mention Meinrad Scherer-Emunds, Editor of US Catholic Magazine. Personally I don’t know why you haven’t urged excommunication if not execution of that heretic given his views on the Eucharist. You can find them in an article at this URL:

uscatholic.claretians.org/site/News2?abbr=usc_&page=NewsArticle&id=5724&printer_friendly=1

Finally a true, well documented slice of military history for thought. In 1808 Napoleon’s army recovered the body of General Sir John Moore after the British defeat at la Corunna in Spain. Knowing Moore to be both a courageous captain and a man of the highest honor, the French prepared a military funeral for him, only to be denied burial in a nearby church by the local priest who would not allow this Anglican heretic to despoil holy Catholic ground. Likewise, when French Marshal Michel Ney recovered several hundred refugees (British wounded, women, children), they were denied shelter at a local convent by Mother Superior for precisely the same reason. At this point Ney, himself Catholic, politely told Mother Superior that he would honor her wishes and instead her nuns would be privileged to care for 150 French ROMAN CATHOLIC grenadiers, some of the toughest troops in Europe and men who wore the grime of many months of long campaigns. Immediately a miracle happened, God touched Mother Superior’s heart and she reconsidered her position, eagerly caring for the British refugees until the could be returned to England.

Honestly, I came here to communicate, learn, not to convert, but I think you owe it to yourself to ask whether the Catholic Church today is still that little convent in Spain and whether the Church’s greatest need is not another Marshal Ney.

Amen and goodby.

Bill,

I have not said any thing more that what Jesus Christ stated Regarding his True Presence.

(John 6:66) From this time on many of his disciples Broke Away and would not remain with him any longer…

Bill, So if you choose to leave it is up to you.

(John 6: 67) "Do you want to leave me too? Simon Peter answered him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. We have come to believe; we are convinced that you are Gods Holy One.

Peter and the other 11 Apostles truely believed that it is truly the flesh of Jesus Christ that we Must Eat. The others who did not believe, left.

Bill, You can continue to dismis the Real Presence but it will be to your own down fall, for you will have no life in you says Jesus Christ.

As for respect of the Catholic Church you never had it, so don’t go and blame me and act that it is because of me that you now have lost it. Truth is if you had respect you would be a Catholic.

Ufamtobie

 

[Realcatholicgk]

Ufamtobie, the only thing I have learned from this thread is that it is time to leave. &c…7c…&c…, I have lost what respect I had for the Catholic Church.

**
Hi Bill,

Sorry to hear that. I think that you came here thinking that you were another follower of christ with just different theological beliefs. Now I think you found out that isn’t true. Jesus only established one church and gave them one theology tp follow ~ You picked the wrong church! You expected to be accepted and your false beliefs be embraced. Things that the real church has been objecting to for 500 years.

I respect you as a fellow human being. As a fellow Soldier, I respect you as a Colonel! As a Christian, I respect your right to follow a false religion. Respect my right not to agree with the false teachings you have been taught!

Please don’t blame Christ’s church because you are a member oF a false denomination and therefore not entitled to be known fully as a true follower of Christ. You just aren’t. Obviousely Protestants can not partake of our sacraments. Our beliefs aren’t the same! Protestants aren’t in ‘communion" with our church. That shouldn’t bother you. You are a heretic. Wear that in pride if youso desire. Just don’t get self-rightist, or judgemental against Jesus’ real church members. We honestly can’t be blamed that you elect to remain a member of a false church. We also can’t pretend that your counterfeit religion is just a different part of our church. That isn’t so! Especially with all the false doctrines, lies and corruption that has occurred over the past 500 years.

Our religious beliefs and practices go back 2,000 years. Did you know that today in every Catholic church around the entire world, in over 27,000 languages the exact same scripture readings and Gospel was read and the bible interpretations might have even been explained the same way? ** The Mass was celebrated and Jesus was present in BOTH Body and Spirit at every one so was his unbleimished word!

Sure the humans in the Catholic church have made mistakes, and still do! But the Catholic church itself, can’t make mistakes and the HS corrects us humans when we do. Protestants make mistakes, get mad start a new denomination, and the cancer continues to grow and get more distorted and corrupted In the name of Jesus! Diluting and misinterpreting Jesus’ teachings and requirements for salvation. So sad, so very sad!

Stay and make an honest attempt to search for the truth about Catholicism. Many non-Catholics have came here and considered what is put before them and, while still disagreeing with our Catholic point of view, they respect that the Catholics they talk to actually believes what is being said. I could never get offended if someone disagrees with what the Church teaches or even hates the Church – it does make sense for someone who believes that the Church teaches error to hate the Church – especially with Satan’s influence. But hate doesn’t bring understanding. “The tragedy of ignorance is that its victims are unaware of their affliction.”–Unknown.

So, as I say, go ahead and disagree with what we actually believe, but not what you mistakenly think we believe. We are the one holy catholic and apostlically authorized church established 2,000 years ago by Jesus Himself… If you disagree with our church you actually disagree with Jesus! No matter what lies, mistruths, deceptive scriptural verses, corrupted beliefs you might possess, no matter what you “feel” or believe. The truth is the truth!

Bill, I pray that our lord and savior helps you to understand that although we disagree, you are indeed loved. Honestly, it isn’t Catholic’s fault that Satan effectively corrupted the minds and hearts and stole people away from Jesus’ church. It happened, it is history. I hope that it can be changed. Catholics always pray for the conversion of sinners. There are simple truths that must be said. Catholic’s arent evil, we aren’t arrogant.We have Jesus’ assurances in the scriptures and our tradition that we are correct.The great thing is that everyone is invited to become Catholic and live in the truth! Any church not established 2,000 years ago, is erroneous when it claims to be christian. None of the 61,000 denominations teach all of Jesus’ “complete truths” so none are fully christian.

There are so many good, loving and God-fearing people in many Protestant denominations that by their real love and example prove that somehow they got the real learning about Jesus. Many Protestants are much more pious and catholic-like than many Catholics. Thank goodness, they can be saved through the graces of the Catholic church. But it would be better for them to practice fully in the teachings of jesis in His real church! A good Protestant is better than a bad Catholic anyday.

Remember as a 2nd Lieutenant you were told to “trust you sergeant”. That advise still stands Colonel!

My advise to you. Stay around, and learn! Ask question share your beliefs, we will help you see why they aren’t as real as you have been taught. There will be a final roll call someday I don’t want you to miss it, because of pride or ignorance!

Your brother in Christ!

Rob
SGM, US Army (Retired)

God Bless

 

[Realcatholicgk]

Bill

Please don’t leave- I think/hope you have seen many posts with charity here and with the offer of fellowship. We need to learn from each other.

Blessings,

Brian

**
Hi Brian,

Bill could teach us about a lot of things. I know we could teach him about the truth faith!
“Ignorance of the Catechism is ignorance of Christ, just like the Bible … Doctrine is not optional.” --Fr John Corapi **

 

[Realcatholicgk]

This is a great question - I didn’t believe this - then came to believe it fully and it is this doctrine more than any other doctrine which started my journey toward the Catholic Church.

For those having difficulty accepting this teaching - you are not the first - John 6:30-70 includes a vivid description of many disciples of Christ who could not accept this teaching and left Jesus over it (and he let them leave) after jesus told them truly truly unless you eat my flesh and blood you have no “eternal life” When Jesus turned then to the apostles and asked if they would also leave - they said where would we go - you have the words of “eternal life” (what words? that we must literally partake of the blood and body of Christ).

This is echoed by Paul in Corinthians (twice) - where he says participation in the eucharist is "participation in the blood and body of Christ’ and again when he warns about not partaking of the Eucharist without “discerning the body”.

If this isn’t enough, the earliest writings of the church fathers (e.g,. Ignatious, a direct disciple of John - author of the gospel cited above) states that only the heretics deny the real presence in the Eucharist.

Finally - I found it interesting (and a little freightening) that John 6:66 (mark of the beast) is in fact the verse where the disciples left Jesus over the unwillingness or inability to believe in the literal presence in the Eucharist. That is something to think about.
**

hi Robbin,

The system of chapters was introduced by Cardinal Hugo de S. Caro, in 1238AD The verse notations were added by Robertus Stephanus, after the advent of printing in 1551. If it does mean something besides a coincident then God had to be involved!

God Bless**

Blessings,

Brian

 

[pneuma07]

Rather, wouldn’t it be the case that I only need to prove that variation existed among the ECFs with respect to their views regarding a real bodily presence in the Eucharist? .

Hi Radical !

 Happy 2009 to you and everyone here.

I see you are engaged with Real Presence and the ancient Church in 2009 too.

You have proposed here fine food for thought which could be enough for at least a couple of ad hoc new threads in a more dedicated environment.
If you should start them, I’d try to follow them for sure.

I quoted here what seems a central point in your exposition, and should like to offer a first contribution on that.

What we mean by “variations”.

In what ancient Councils was it deemed necessary to precise the core eucharistic doctrine against a rampant innovation ? Or would people go around speaking the very same eucharistic language with radically different even mutually excluding understandings of it, and nobody ever would care to settle the issue ?
If we are not ready to accept this strange supposition, then “ variations” within post Nicene fathers, ie in the age of the great Councils, do not appear as contrasting, contradictory ones, but part of a symphony.
We can infer the *leit motiv *of this late ancient symphony was Real Presence ( and that at least by the beginning of the IV century), or we should need to postulate that the move from NonRP to RP took place between late ancient and early medieval Church. Too late, we hopefully agree.

If so, the game was already over by the beginning of the IV century, the supposed innovation had won.
Now, IMHO unless we can show a clear breakthrough/shift from a NRP church ( according to the basic assumption that the sub-apostolic Church was NRP) to a definitely RP dominated one before the beginning of the IV century ( in other words during the II and the III ) the mentioned assumption does not appear to work.

If by “variations” in those centuries we do mean contrasts, if we mean we listen to a mess rather then a symphony, whose output would be the new paradigm, let’s look then for controversies in the II and III centuries.

We could start, for example, by exposing, a posteriori, the first of the ECFs who introduced this innovation within Christianity. From what region was it spread ? In what regions did the orthodox view survive better, up to what time ?
Let’s keep in mind the inherent opposition between innovation and orthodoxy perceived in the ancient Church as well as later. Tradition and universality were seen as blueprints of orthodoxy. St. Vincent’s of Lerins famous exposition in his Commonitorium about that can be seen in its turn as an articulation of earlier criteria, strongly pointed to already in Irenaeus.

Bless you.

 

[look3467]

I have one thing to say to Bill, and that is if Christ is all inclusive, then the Catholic Church membership is included also.

I believe in the all inclusive Christ and love all my brothers and sisters no matter what they believe.

If I can demonstrate the same love that Christ showed towards me
I will have complied with His commandment.

I would that you open up your mind a little more to receive more understandings on the all inclusive Christ.

For therein lies the real answers to the truth.

Religion is just a vehicle by which mankind uses to come to God, but the real truth of it is in the direct relationship one has with God in spirit.

I therefore, encourage you to remain, discuss and continue to seek a deeper understanding into God word.

If you must go, go in peace and blessings on your seeking.

Peace>>>AJ

 

[reteeks21]

I most certainly do!

 

[thirdn6]

I don’t have to check or wreck anything.

I do believe in the Real Presence of Christ in the elements. I do not believe there is definitive evidence they exist because of transubstantiation. However, I also do not believe there is definitive evidence to deny they exist due to transubstantiation. I also accept that my faith may be in error and the elements might be symbolic only. I also accept that Christ might exist in whatever form is comfortable to the communicant, because God can do all things, not just what the Catholic, Presbyterian or Baptist churches want him to do.

Having once been evangelical, I can tell you that these good Christians believe likewise. God can do anything. However, they feel in this case the Eucharist is powerful symbolism, not because God can’t do it otherwise, but because that is the way He chooses to reveal himself to them.

And the Catholic Church is no different. Many evangelicals believe the earth was created in seven 24-hour periods of time, while the Vatican has specifically dismissed intelligent design and stated faith in evolution are not in conflict. Why? Doesn’t the Pope believe God can do anything, to include create the universe in seven days?

The point you missed and Brian nailed was that to God perhaps the composition of the elements takes back seat to far more important aspects of communion, but by bickering over over this “how many angels on the head of a pin” type issue we totally lose sight of them. And what an image we portray to outsiders as a bonus. Why would anyone want to be Christian given how nasty we tend to treat each other?

I swear Gandhi must truly have spoken with the Holy Spirit when he said, “I love your Christ, but I do not like your Christians. They are so unlike your Christ.”

Amen.

Hi colonel,

Question for you: Are you going to send your troops to war thinking you made a mistake of giving them supplies of ‘blank’ bullets instead of the ‘real’ ones? How can they protect themselves from getting killed using fake bullets?
Are you going to ‘put that on the backseat’ as well as long as your soldiers are not complaining?
Aren’t you going to go as far as knowing who manufactures your ammos and the authenticity of it?

To us, Catholics, the belief that the bread and wine becomes the true flesh and blood of the Lamb of God, the Christ, in the celebration of the holy mass, is essential to the life of the Church. In it we are united through him, in him, and with him. We certainly cannot put that on the backseat. It is either you’re with us or against us. It is either you believe those who are validly ordained (sent) to bring that gift to you or not (reject them) and choose the fake ones. Remember, it’s received by the earliest generation of Catholic Christians, receive by the present, and so will future generations until He comes again in glory. And is free.

Why settle for some ordinary men’s doctrines?

 

[two1176]

I used to be Lutheran until I started studying what the Catholic Church believes about itself (not what Prots think the Church teaches). I was amazed at the depth and breadth of the Catholic Faith. It was as if I spent years in Kindergarten without realizing there was more to learn. After that, there was no turning back. The idea of Christ mixed in with bread is pretty silly if you picture it