Protestants: Do you believe that Christ is truly present in the communion elements of bread and wine?

[NonCatholic]

Yes humor me…

Please explain to me how I can go to hell for unworthily receiving a symbol of something? If its not the real thing then how can I be guilty of it?
Remember, the sentence is life, without parole. Were is the justice in getting life for doing something against a symbol of a man. If there is no actual victim?

Again, Like I said before, if I kill a picture (a symbol) of the president with a knife could I be tryed and convicted and sent to prison for life?

I realize that there is nothing common about common sense but come on brother. Were is the justice in this?

Blessings***

It is a symbolic reference to His actual death, like the death that Pilot, the Jewish leaders and Roman gentiles are guilty of; they have the blood of Jesus on their hands.

 

[NonCatholic]

BMSODM:

The catholic church doesnt teach that Jesus dies more then once. When they celebrate the Sacrafice of the Mass that doesnt mean they kill Him over and over.

Will someone please give me reference to the above…thanks in advance.

 

[phil8888]

Will someone please give me reference to the above…thanks in advance.

Catholics believe Christ’s sacrifice is eternal, and at the altar we re-present the sacrifice, as it is occurring eternally. Jesus said to do that.

 

[GKC]

Will someone please give me reference to the above…thanks in advance.

Try the Catechism, 1366-1367 and paras around there.

I’m Anglican. And this is what (some) Anglicans affirm also. The Mass is not a re-sacrifice. Not a new sacrifice. Not another sacrifice. Not an additional sacrifice. Not a repeated sacrifice. It is the One Sacrifice, made on Calvary, and made now present (Re-presented, presented to us) as history and eternity intersect. Time and space are attributes of creation, not of God. And Christ and his sacrifice, eternally presented to God, are outside of those created limitations. And at every Mass, the one Sacrifice is made present before us, even as it is present before God, eternally.

But do listen to what the RCs say. I’m an intruder. May miss a detail or two.

GKC

*Anglicanus-Catholicus *

 

[GKC]

Catholics believe Christ’s sacrifice is eternal, and at the altar we re-present the sacrifice, as it is occurring eternally. Jesus said to do that.

Ok, Phil. How’d I do?

GKC

 

[Dchsknight]

Hello all my name is James,

I am Protestant for moment, I am joining the Catholic church at Easter Vigil and can not WAIT! so excited to dwell in the House of the Lord.

I believed Communion to a very Symbolic thing before i actually dived into the word and read it, along with prayer that God show me truth. ( this actually is what got me to see that the Truth is in the Catholic Church). In all the Churches that i have gone to through out my life, Never have i heard a pastor or preacher speak on this matter. When you read this with out any bias Jesus is pretty darn clear on what he said, You must the Flesh and you must drink the , Because if you dont then you have no life in you. this seems to me, Jesus said You got to eat the flesh and Drink the and at the Last Supper he showed the Disciples how to Partake in that. Thus if Christ said you must eat this Flesh drink his and Christ said The bread is his body and the drink is his , then the power, and presence of Christ HAS to be in Communion because then we are doing something pointless and nothing Christ said is pointless. I can now see, having both sides, how protestants can misunderstand this, but, i can also see where people can just pick and choose what parts of the bible are true or Symbolic. I have come to the understanding that while Communion is a very Symbolic thing, that it is one of the signs of the Covenant, It is Jesus, That bread is him and drink is his . I pray and Hope that God will surge into the Protestant churches and Correct this gross error of communion and bring them back as he has brought me to the Truth!

 

[Realcatholicgk]

No kidding. Yep, it means just that. A man who was nominally an Anglo-Catholic, until he converted in 1922 (though he had pretty much decided on doing so, by 1909), and a man whose life I have studied and whose works (and critical works on whom) I have read and collected for over 45 years. Got just about everything he wrote, as published under covers in his name (no more than 2 exceptions) by now.

But thanks for for the information.

GKC

**
Hi Jim,

WOW Phil888 is Good! I would have never picked up on that connection! GK Chesterton one quote Iwould like you to pray over is:

“I say that a man must be certain of his morality for the simple reason that he has to suffer for it.”
G. K. Chesterton**

 

[Realcatholicgk]

Try the Catechism, 1366-1367 and paras around there.

I’m Anglican. And this is what (some) Anglicans affirm also. The Mass is not a re-sacrifice. Not a new sacrifice. Not another sacrifice. Not an additional sacrifice. Not a repeated sacrifice. It is the One Sacrifice, made on Calvary, and made now present (Re-presented, presented to us) as history and eternity intersect. Time and space are attributes of creation, not of God. And Christ and his sacrifice, eternally presented to God, are outside of those created limitations. And at every Mass, the one Sacrifice is made present before us, even as it is present before God, eternally.

But do listen to what the RCs say. I’m an intruder. May miss a detail or two.

** Hi Jim,

Jim, you are never an intruder, you speak the truth and honesy people are always welcome anywhere. We both realize that you are more Catholic than many Catholics. You “know” the real religion, just as well as your own! You “think” they are alike. However, similar is not the same as really the same. Anyway, you are a welcomed member of the group, pull up a chair and have a swig from the bottle of wine! We’ll swap war stories and tell lies!

NonCatholic wanted to know the price of a ticket for the Time Machine I take that to mean that he isn’t saved yet, the poor guy! I got my ticket with Baptism, Jesus paid the price requiredl.

**

GKC

*Anglicanus-Catholicus *

 

[Realcatholicgk]

It is a symbolic reference to His actual death, like the death that Pilot, the Jewish leaders and Roman gentiles are guilty of; they have the blood of Jesus on their hands.

**Hi Non,

Since we are all sinner we all have Jesus’ blood on our hands! Not symbolically, but actually! We must accept our guilt in order to acknowledge His sacrafice for us!

Now, about Jesus’ sacrifice for our sins, one of my personal hero’s Bishop Fulton J. Sheen -explained it so well:

“They might have done two things with His death which would have fallen so short of the Way of Divinity. They might have regarded His redemptive death as a drama presented once in history like the assassination of Lincoln. In that case, it would have been only an incident, not a Redemption—the tragic end of a man, not the Salvation of humanity.
Regrettably, this is the way so many look upon the Cross of Christ, forgetting His Resurrection and the pouring out of the merits of His Cross in the Memorial Action He ordered and commanded. In such a case, His death would be only like a national Memorial Day and nothing more.
Or they might have regarded it as a drama which was played only once, but one which ought often to be recalled only through meditation on its details. In this case, they would go back and read the accounts of the drama critics who lived at the time, namely, Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. This would be only a literary recall of His death, as Plato records the death of Socrates, and would have made the death of Our Lord no different from the death of any man.
Our Lord never told anyone to write about His Redemption**, but He did tell His Apostles to renew it, apply it, commemorate it, prolong it by obeying His orders given at the Last Supper. He wanted the great drama of Calvary to be played not once, but for every age of His own choosing. He wanted men not to be readers about His Redemption, but actors in it, offering up their body and blood with His in the re-enactment of Calvary, saying with Him, “This is my body and this is my blood”; dying to their lower natures to live by grace…that they would be changed into Christ.”

Non, when you take away the Mass, you actually take away christianity. By taking away the Mass, Protestants lead by Satan become the same as other world religions who are trying to reach God.
But Christianity is God reaching for our hearts. Take away the Mass, and you can never get the fruit of the Cross, which is the Resurrection. It is the Mass that makes the Church real.
Like the physical body of Christ, the church, the mystical body of Christ, has her wounds, scars, and bruises by her scandals, disloyalties, and moral bruises, but not one bone can be broken because the Mass keeps her inner structure in place through the graces of the Holy Spirit and the sacrafice of Jesus.

I hope this helps explain the truth to you.

God Bless.

 

[BMSODM]

Will someone please give me reference to the above…thanks in advance.

How about we start with the ones who were there. The witnesses
of what the apostles taught. Considering almost everything was orally taught by the Early Church I would think there testamony should hold some weight.

*“I have no taste for corruptible food nor for the pleasures of this life. I desire the bread of God, **which is **the flesh of Jesus Christ, who was of the seed of David; and for drink I desire His blood, which is love incorruptible.” St. Ignatius of Antioch (“Epistle to the Romans,” c. 105 A.D.)

“Heretics abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they do not confess that the Eucharist **is the **Flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ.” St. Ignatius of Antioch (“Epistle to the Smyrneans,” c. 105 A.D.) *

"Not as common bread nor common drink do we receive these; but as we have been taught, the food which has been made into the Eucharist by the Eucharistic prayer set down by Him, and by the change of which our blood and flesh is nourished, is both* the **Flesh and Blood of that incarnated Jesus." St. Justin Martyr (“First Apology,” c. 150 A.D.)
*

I could continue with quotes from every generation if you like right to modern day. This beleif was taught by the apostles and was continued through today.

 

[BMSODM]

It is a symbolic reference to His actual death, like the death that Pilot, the Jewish leaders and Roman gentiles are guilty of; they have the blood of Jesus on their hands.

How can this be the same? There was a victim so there was blood on there hands(and its on yours and mine as well). So how can there be a crime against the Body and Blood if there is no Body and Blood in the Eucharist?

If anything this helps prove my point. Its just to have guilt if there is an actual crime, but its unjust to have guilt against a symbol of a crime…

Common sense tells us this…

 

[BMSODM]

Will someone please give me reference to the above…thanks in advance.

Ok I found a quote from someone who was there and witnessed what the apostles taught on the Mass…

*“And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place. And the memoirs of the Apostles or the writings of the Prophets are read, as long as time permits. Then, when the reader has ceased, the priest verbally instructs us and exhorts us to imitate these good things. Then we all rise together and pray. And, as we said before, when our prayer is ended, bread and wine and water are brought. Then, the priest in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability. And the people assent, saying ‘Amen.’ Then, the Eucharist, is distributed to everyone, and everyone participates in that over which thanks has been given. And a portion of it is sent by the deacons to those who are absent.” St. Justin Martyr (“First Apology,” c. 160 A.D.)
*

Im telling you this teaching has always been there. These quotes are coming from the Saints who were Martyred for the Church. They died for our Lord and if they were there and there beliefs were so strong, that they layed down there own lives they need to be held with some authority…

 

[NonCatholic]

**Hi Non,

Since we are all sinner we all have Jesus’ blood on our hands! Not symbolically, but actually! We must accept our guilt in order to acknowledge His sacrafice for us!

Now, about Jesus’ sacrifice for our sins, one of my personal hero’s Bishop Fulton J. Sheen -explained it so well:

“They might have done two things with His death which would have fallen so short of the Way of Divinity. They might have regarded His redemptive death as a drama presented once in history like the assassination of Lincoln. In that case, it would have been only an incident, not a Redemption—the tragic end of a man, not the Salvation of humanity.
Regrettably, this is the way so many look upon the Cross of Christ, forgetting His Resurrection and the pouring out of the merits of His Cross in the Memorial Action He ordered and commanded. In such a case, His death would be only like a national Memorial Day and nothing more.
Or they might have regarded it as a drama which was played only once, but one which ought often to be recalled only through meditation on its details. In this case, they would go back and read the accounts of the drama critics who lived at the time, namely, Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. This would be only a literary recall of His death, as Plato records the death of Socrates, and would have made the death of Our Lord no different from the death of any man.
Our Lord never told anyone to write about His Redemption**, but He did tell His Apostles to renew it, apply it, commemorate it, prolong it by obeying His orders given at the Last Supper. He wanted the great drama of Calvary to be played not once, but for every age of His own choosing. He wanted men not to be readers about His Redemption, but actors in it, offering up their body and blood with His in the re-enactment of Calvary, saying with Him, “This is my body and this is my blood”; dying to their lower natures to live by grace…that they would be changed into Christ.”

Non, when you take away the Mass, you actually take away christianity. By taking away the Mass, Protestants lead by Satan become the same as other world religions who are trying to reach God.
But Christianity is God reaching for our hearts. Take away the Mass, and you can never get the fruit of the Cross, which is the Resurrection. It is the Mass that makes the Church real.
Like the physical body of Christ, the church, the mystical body of Christ, has her wounds, scars, and bruises by her scandals, disloyalties, and moral bruises, but not one bone can be broken because the Mass keeps her inner structure in place through the graces of the Holy Spirit and the sacrafice of Jesus.

I hope this helps explain the truth to you.

God Bless.

**Thanks everybody, now I have another question. What exactly does “sacrifice” and “victim” mean in the Mass? **

Recap: Jesus is brought down at the Priest’s command; whereas a miracle happens with the bread and wine turning into the literal body and blood of Christ (consecrate)…all the way down to the toenail? Then, we are back at the cross…now my memory is fading…please correct/add.

 

[mabibleteacher]

I am a Protestant who believes that Christ is truly present in the consecrated bread and wine every Sunday at my Anglican church. Do you believe this or do you feel that it is truly a symbolistic example of the Lord’s Supper?

The bible says " "For wherever two or more are gathered together in my name, there I am in the midst of them" (Matt. 18:20

and " Luke 22:19 "* And he took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body given for you; do this in remembrance of me.”

So if we are to believe the scripture, we are to break bread (eat) and remember Jesus (in His name) and He will be present at that event.
I don’t see how we could not believe that He is present.

Do I believe that the little wafer cakes are an actual piece of the flesh of Jesus, no I don’t. I see no scripture that supports the idea that I should.*

 

[BMSODM]

**Thanks everybody, now I have another question. What exactly does “sacrifice” and “victim” mean in the Mass? **

Recap: Jesus is brought down at the Priest’s command; whereas a miracle happens with the bread and wine turning into the literal body and blood of Christ (consecrate)…all the way down to the toenail? Then, we are back at the cross…now my memory is fading…please correct/add.

Let me try to explain it this way. Look in Revelations.

Some verses state that the prayers of the saints are being offered at the alter in the form of incense. So this establishes that there is an alter in heaven, because we know the book of Rev is about heaven. Ok now, “a lamb standing as though it has been slain” we both can agree Jesus is the lamb and if He is standing slain it would appear He is on the cross. Remember this is in heaven.

Since the lamb is revealed as sitting in the midst of Gods throne which is in front of the golden alter, then it appears that the presentation of Christ to the Father as a sacrafice is an ongoing occurance since we know heaven is eternal and not bound by time. So the Mass is no more than what occurs in heaven, according to scripture.

Side note…

Jesus is referred to as the lamb twenty-eight times in Rev, compared to only four times in the whole rest of the New Testament. Why in Rev of all places if the crucifixion is a past event and the emphesis ought to be on the resurrected is He referred to as a slain lamb. Obviously the heavenly emphesis is on Jesus’ sacrafice.

The Mass is a bridge from time to timeless and from timeless to time. We go to heaven in Spirit everytime we go to Mass and we are before the Golden Alter as one Body…

 

[GKC]

**
Hi Jim,

WOW Phil888 is Good! I would have never picked up on that connection! GK Chesterton one quote Iwould like you to pray over is:

“I say that a man must be certain of his morality for the simple reason that he has to suffer for it.”
G. K. Chesterton**

GKC has been my board name ever since I started on the internet. Ocasionally the truth comes out about it.

And, over 45 years, I’ve pondered many a Chesterton quote. That one comes from the 4 Aug 1906 issue of the The Illustrated London News, from his weekly article titled “the Human Will and the Decline of Empire”. It is reprinted in the Ignatius Press collection of his ILN articles, in Vol XXVII of his collected works, covering the years 1905-1907, p. 252. It is a rejoinder to something that Chesterton quotes H. G. Wells as saying.

I always like contemplating Chesterton. My man.

GKC

 

[Realcatholicgk]

The bible says " "For wherever two or more are gathered together in my name, there I am in the midst of them" (Matt. 18:20

**Hi Mabible,

That is true! So no need to go to church at all! Just meet a buddy at his house before the game! Great Protestant idea. Sounds like a New denomination “True Belivers in NFL and JC” a full faith non-denomination group of free thinking Protestants! You guys can have Jesus at the Football game with you, Hey hotdog and beer could be your communion! How cool is that!
**

and " Luke 22:19 "* And he took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body given for you; do this in remembrance of me.”

**
Yes, You are doing great Mabible, He did! He told them how to observe his death. And He also taught how to become a participant at His sacrafice:
While they were eating, Jesus took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to his disciples, saying, “Take and eat; this is my body***.” Then he took the cup, gave thanks and offered it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you. This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.” Matthew 26:26-28 (NIV)
While they were eating, Jesus took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to his disciples, saying, “Take it; this is my body.” Then he took the cup, gave thanks and offered it to them, and they all drank from it. “This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many.” Mark 14:22-24 (NIV)
And he took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body given for you; do this in remembrance of me.” In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you.” Luke 22:19-20 (NIV)

Is not the cup of thanksgiving for which we give thanks a participation in the death of Christ? And is not the bread that we break a sign that we are members of the body of Christ?

Because there is one loaf, we, who are many, are one body, for we all partake of the one loaf. 1 Corinthians 10:16-17 (NIV)

And when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, “This is my body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of me.” In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me.” For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes. 1 Corinthians 11:24-26 (NIV) Jesus said to them, “I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.” John 6:53-54 (NIV)
Notice he didn’t say eats this symbol of my body anywhere! His real followers believe that the bread and the wine becomes the actual body and blood of Christ. The term for this is Transubstantiation. It is Divine miracle that occurres every thing a apostalic successor preforms the Mass!

So if we are to believe the scripture, we are to break bread (eat) and remember Jesus (in His name) and He will be present at that event. I don’t see how we could not believe that He is present.

You are correct, Mabible, And I think the NFL denomination will be a big hit! You might consider naming yourself the first Pope for it!

Do I believe that the little wafer cakes are an actual piece of the flesh of Jesus, no I don’t.

**Well, of course not! Satan blinds his followers to Jesus’ truth. We are praying for you! Jesus loves you He even died for You! You could come watch at Catholic Mass anytime. **

I see no scripture that supports the idea that I should.

**“If you believe what you like in the gospels, and reject what you don’t like, it is not the gospel you believe, but yourself.” Saint Augustine

Being a "christian you are invited to the banquet being Protestant you are dressed in the garment of Jesus’ sacrafice, the Eucharist!

I am sure God will understand

Matthew 20-11-12 "But when the king came in to see the guests, he noticed a man there who was not wearing wedding clothes. ‘Friend,’ he asked, ‘how did you get in here without wedding clothes?’ The man was speechless.

(Mabible, Don’t you think the man could have said, Hey God, I thought the clothes were only a symbol? )

Matthew 20: 13- 14 "Then the king told the attendants, ‘Tie him hand and foot, and throw him outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’ “For many are invited, but few are chosen.”

God Bless
**

 

[GKC]

Realcatholicgk:
Yep. I think a number of things, I do.

But I don’t presume on my welcome. I’m a guest.

True, in some places, by some, I’m a welcomed guest, but I don’t presume. Esp. to speak for RCs. I might think something, and be wrong.

Did Noncatholic mean a time machine, with respect to the re-presentation of the One Sacrifice? He doesn’t grasp the concept of time and space as created and contingent, as is, in fact, all of creation, which does not contain or limit the Creator, I notice. And I do see he has no concept of confection of the Eucharist. Priest’s command, indeed.

Is there a difference in “war stories” and “lies”?

GKC

 

[Realcatholicgk]

Did Noncatholic mean a time machine, with respect to the re-presentation of the One Sacrifice?

**

Hi Jim,

I explained that we went back and joined Jesus at the cross. With his weak understanding the truth and God’s powers, he assumed science. As you said he doesn’t grasp the concept of time and space as created and contingent, as is, in fact, all of creation, which does not contain or limit the Creator,.**

Is there a difference in “war stories” and “lies”?

**Sure there is Jim, War stories start: This is no BS…" ; Lies start out: “Let me tell you what happened to me one time!..” **
"Non-catholic:

Thanks everybody, now I have another question. What exactly does “sacrifice” and “victim” mean in the Mass?

**
Jim, do you want to answer these foolish questions? He bores me. Mabibleteacher on the other hand scares me! From name He may actually be “teaching the phony Bible” I will try to save him from Satan if you work on Non’s questions. His foolish questions are non brainers!

God Bless**

 

[GKC]

Realcatholicgk:
All time is an immediate “given”, to the Creator. Which explains a lot of the “omnis” that are God’s nature. There are no tenses in “I Am”.

I probably could address that, but I’m about to leave my computer for the evening. I don’t live with it right now, but I do have visiting rights. How about I just suggest the Catechism, para 1356-1368, for a start. Always good to go to the source. and maybe a RC will chime in.

How’d you like my set-up for “war stories/lies”?

GKC