I don’t think you got the context of what I was asking/saying and probably my fault…doesn’t matter because according to the RCC definition above I’m a heretic anyway. That’s his opinion.
In Revelation the Church has already been redeemed and the last major event before the New Heaven and New Earth is the redemption of Israel, which is why you see the altar and lamb, but no actual sacrifice is recorded in the NT…just an observation of the text. It does help me to understand why so much attention to detail and $$$ is spent on the ritual…again just an observation…I watch EWTN or is it ETWN…whatever…the RCC channel on DirectTV.
The real silly Christians main event in church is the preaching and teaching of God’s word…although it is getting harder to find…which occurs when God begins to judge a nation.**Hi Non,
Since we are all sinner we all have Jesus’ blood on our hands! Not symbolically, but actually! We must accept our guilt in order to acknowledge His sacrafice for us!
Now, about Jesus’ sacrifice for our sins, one of my personal hero’s Bishop Fulton J. Sheen -explained it so well:
“They might have done two things with His death which would have fallen so short of the Way of Divinity. They might have regarded His redemptive death as a drama presented once in history like the assassination of Lincoln. In that case, it would have been only an incident, not a Redemption—the tragic end of a man, not the Salvation of humanity.
Regrettably, this is the way so many look upon the Cross of Christ, forgetting His Resurrection and the pouring out of the merits of His Cross in the Memorial Action He ordered and commanded. In such a case, His death would be only like a national Memorial Day and nothing more.
Or they might have regarded it as a drama which was played only once, but one which ought often to be recalled only through meditation on its details. In this case, they would go back and read the accounts of the drama critics who lived at the time, namely, Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. This would be only a literary recall of His death, as Plato records the death of Socrates, and would have made the death of Our Lord no different from the death of any man.
Our Lord never told anyone to write about His Redemption**, but He did tell His Apostles to renew it, apply it, commemorate it, prolong it by obeying His orders given at the Last Supper. He wanted the great drama of Calvary to be played not once, but for every age of His own choosing. He wanted men not to be readers about His Redemption, but actors in it, offering up their body and blood with His in the re-enactment of Calvary, saying with Him, “This is my body and this is my blood”; dying to their lower natures to live by grace…that they would be changed into Christ.”
Non, when you take away the Mass, you actually take away christianity. By taking away the Mass, Protestants lead by Satan become the same as other world religions who are trying to reach God.
But Christianity is God reaching for our hearts. Take away the Mass, and you can never get the fruit of the Cross, which is the Resurrection. It is the Mass that makes the Church real.
Like the physical body of Christ, the church, the mystical body of Christ, has her wounds, scars, and bruises by her scandals, disloyalties, and moral bruises, but not one bone can be broken because the Mass keeps her inner structure in place through the graces of the Holy Spirit and the sacrafice of Jesus.
I hope this helps explain the truth to you.
God Bless.
Please explain the context then…and here is the definition of a Heretic…
you are not alone
I think this is a poor example. First, it is an image and not a symbol. Second pictures today are a dime a dozen common place and insignificant. Why not use an ancient symbol as an example instead? Augustine stated that words where the most common signs. So why not use an ancient word such as the name of Jehovah/YHWH as the symbol for your example?
It seems that the Jews treated the written name of YHWH with the utmost respect and not b/c a bodily presence was asscoiated with it. A bodily presence is not necessary for the faithful to give extreme respect for a sacred symbol. A bodily presence is not necessary for the faithful to believe that disrepect for a sacred symbol is a sin. The name YHWH was merely a symbol, but to abuse that name was a sin against God (the object of the symbol). The bread of the eucharist is merely a symbol, but to abuse that bread is a sin against the body of Jesus (the object of the symbol).
It is not just a symbol of a man any more than YHWH is a symbol of a man. YHWH was a sacred symbol that God Almighty gave to man. The bread of the Eucharist is a sacred symbol that God Almighty gave to man. These are not unimportant things.
Guess it is a good thing then that the camera wasn’t invented until sometime after 33 AD…
In addition to your failure to note the significance of a sacred symbol, I think your argument is also plagued by the wording of the verses in question. Paul, in the same verse, uses different terms to distinguish between the thing that is treated unworthily and the thing that the offense is against. That use of different terms is consistent with symbolism. Take, for example, the flag of the USA which is a symbol of that country. I might say that if someone treats the “stars and stripes” in an unworthy manner by burning it, that person is guilty of an offense against the USA. In that example I use different words to distinguish the symbol from the thing which it symbolizes. You should be able to note how Paul’s manner of using “bread” and “body” is the same as my manner of using the “stars and stripes” and “USA”.
**
Hi Jim,**
All time is an immediate “given”, to the Creator. Which explains a lot of the “omnis” that are God’s nature. There are no tenses in “I Am**”.
(Isn’t that Present tense, Jim?)
Joke time: Guy talks to God. “God How long is a million years to you”? God said: “My son, it is like a second to Me!” The man asks God “God, Is it true you will give people anything they Ask?” God say “yes, my son, anything!” The guy said “God can I have a million dollars?” God said sure, give me a second!"**
I probably could address that, but I’m about to leave my computer for the evening. I don’t live with it right now, but I do have visiting rights. How about I just suggest the Catechism, para 1356-1368, for a start. Always good to go to the source. and maybe a RC will chime in.
Did you get to sleep over?
**Protestant version: “Gather together, shake hands, twist and corrupt the true words of Jesus, shake hands, sing some songs, have a pot luck and go home” I know that Jesus shows up because of the two or more in my name but where is the “worship”? Oh yea, I forgot,:doh2: Maybe when you serve communion, monthly, annually, whenever. The term Communion is derived from Latin “communio” (sharing in common). The corresponding term in Greek is κοινωνία, which is often translated as “fellowship”. So you drink Grape juice and eat what? Orieo’s? in fellowship? Do you do this for some strange reason that you can’t quit remember, because your memory start fading? **Thanks everybody, now I have another question. What exactly does “sacrifice” and “victim” mean in the Mass?
**Isn’t that two?**
Recap: Jesus is brought down at the Priest’s command;
** Cute: You just made priest command Jesus! Have you no fear of the Lord? Oh wait, you may not have any gifts of the Holy Spirit at all! Your ministers can’t act as Jesus can they? So you foolishly thing real priests can’t either. Even though Jesus breathed on them? **Whereas a miracle happens with the bread and wine turning into the literal body and blood of Christ (consecrate)…all the way down to the toenail? Then, we are back at the cross…now my memory is fading…please correct/add. ** I feel compelled to sy: May God have mercy on your soul! **
Sorry my analogy has fallen short. But I do have over 2000yrs of doctrine to support my veiws. How many years do you have? I have the correct teachings of the apostles, and I know this because I have the Early Church Fathers who confirm my beleifs are in accord with the apostles(you know the ones who witnessed these teachings). So while your entitled to your opinion, its just that your opinion. It has absolutely no root…
I don’t think you got the context of what I was asking/saying and probably my fault…doesn’t matter because according to the RCC definition above I’m a heretic anyway. That’s his opinion. **Who"s opinion? St. Ignatius of Antioch? Jesus? All right thinking christians? ****
Non, I was wondering, why do you always think things are “people’s opinions” that you can’t defend against?That seems to be your answer “well that is His opinion” I was wondering is that all you ever give, your opinion? We can’t learn if you do that. All we will have is NonCatholics personal opinion. Not that it isn’t valuable to you, it just isn’t to anyone else. If you haven’t noticed, many of us only state facts** like from Dictionaries, Church teachings and scripture. If we 'explain" something we are ready to back it up by facts. Please try to do that sometimes. Otherwise people will accuse you of rambling. That isn’t fair to you!
**
On line Dictionary:
heretic n.** A person who holds controversial opinions, especially one who publicly dissents from the officially accepted dogma of the Roman Catholic Church.
Now reference the word Heretic, it isn’t a “bad” word. It is only a descriptive word.Like Protestant, Catholic, Hebrew. It describes a person. If you aren’t a heretic just say "I agree with every thing the Catholic Church teaches! It is that easy!
Webster:
Her"e*tic (?), n. [L. haereticus, Gr. able to choose, heretical, fr. to take, choose: cf. F. h’er’etique. See Heresy.]
"Addis & Arnold. Syn. – Heretic, Schismatic, Sectarian. A heretic is one whose errors are doctrinal, and usually of a malignant character, tending to subvert the true faith. A schismatic is one who creates a schism, or division in the church, on points of faith, discipline, practice, etc., usually for the sake of personal aggrandizement. A sectarian is one who originates or is an ardent adherent and advocate of a sect, or distinct organization, which separates from the main body of believers.
- One who holds to a heresy; one who believes some doctrine contrary to the established faith or prevailing religion. A man that is an heretic, after the first and second admonition, reject. Titus iii. 10. (1.3 Billion Catholics = Prevailing religion!)
- R. C. Ch. One who having made a profession of Christian belief, deliberately and pertinaciously refuses to believe one or more of the articles of faith "determined by the authority of the universal church.(Universal Church =Catholic church!)
“Heretics abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the Flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ.” St. Ignatius of Antioch (“Epistle to the Smyrneans,” c. 105 A.D.)
Only 1975 years, give or take a year or two…you know, going back to Jesus’s ministry.
and I have the actual teaching of Christ, not filtered through mere men and not dependent on medieval philsophy. Guess I win.
**Hi BM,
If Protestants want to believe in the real presense, all they have to do is pray to Jesus, Ask Him to reveal the truth, He will, and The RCC will welcome them as true believers alive in Jesus as He commanded of all His followers.
Only 1975 years, give or take a year or two…you know, going back to Jesus’s ministry.
**
Hi Radical,
Actually, Jesus’ ministry is estimated to have started 1957 years ago by current figuring, but what different does that make? If it was important I am sure Jesus would have stressed it over and over again, just like he did His real presence in the Eucharist. People who worry about unimportant matters don’t see the important things like the TRUTHS that Jesus revealed. **
and I have the actual teaching of Christ, not filtered through mere men and not dependent on medieval philsophy.
** You meant philosophy right? That is very Interesting! Did you get these teachings on golden sheets that can only be read with magic glasses?If so, I think that has be done already.
I just hope it isn’t the old KJV foolishnessClick on: BIBLE! ** and that you can provide some interesting facts for us to discuss!
Guess I win.
** I guess you are Delusional from what you have said so far, I could beas wrong as you are! And I mean that with love and respect for you as a person.
God Bless **
THe actual teachings you say. Do you mean the Bible, you know the one the Catholic Church put together. The one the Catholic Church preserved in the dark ages. The one the apostles(mere men) wrote.Only 1975 years, give or take a year or two…you know, going back to Jesus’s ministry.
and I have the actual teaching of Christ, not filtered through mere men and not dependent on medieval philsophy. Guess I win.
)Yes, by the RCC definition of a heretic…I am.
I am guilty before the RCC, but not before God.
No other tense, sure. No conjugation.**Protestant version: “Gather together, shake hands, twist and corrupt the true words of Jesus, shake hands, sing some songs, have a pot luck and go home” I know that Jesus shows up because of the two or more in my name but where is the “worship”? Oh yea, I forgot,:doh2: Maybe when you serve communion, monthly, annually, whenever. The term Communion is derived from Latin “communio” (sharing in common). The corresponding term in Greek is κοινωνία, which is often translated as “fellowship”. So you drink Grape juice and eat what? Orieo’s? in fellowship? Do you do this for some strange reason that you can’t quit remember, because your memory start fading? **
**
The Real Catholic Version:**" We call the consecrated bread “The Host”. This term comes from the Latin word ;hostia;, which actually means ‘victim’. You didn’t know that, did you Non?
Catholics know that Jesus Christ is really present in the consecrated bread and wine on our altars. The Mass is offered at Jesus’ command as a re-presentation of the original sacrificial death of Jesus on the cross for each persons sins individually.
Therefore, Jesus is the victim of the sacrifice and we call the bread the host/victim to help us remember that it is no longer bread but the Real Presence of our Lord Jesus Christ given to us to strengthen and help us on the journey to Heaven.
The word Eucharist comes from Late Latin ‘eucharistia’ and from Greek ‘eukharistia’ from ‘eukharistos’ grateful, thankful : eu-, eu- + kharizesthai, to show favor and from kharis, grace. . So by using that word we acknowledge our grateful thankfulness for being shown favor and given grace through the host.
The only minister of the Eucharist, that is, the one authorized to celebrate the rite and consecrate the Eucharist, is a validly ordained priest (either bishop or presbyter) acting in the person of Christ in persona Christi. In other words the priest celebrant represents Christ, who is the Head of the Church, and acts before God the Father in the name of the Church. In this aspect the priest is Jesus, and Jesus is the priest. The priest doesn’t have to command Jesus. Jesus commanded Him and us to do it!
Although the empirical appearances are not changed, the reality of the host is changed by the power of Jesus who conducts this miracle. The separate consecration of the bread and wine represents the separation of Jesus’ body from his blood at Calvary when His blood was shed for all of us and our salvation. The form is, as Jesus Himself commanded many times in the scriptures. However, since he has risen, the Church teaches that his body and blood can no longer be truly separated. Where one is, the other must be. Therefore, although the priest (or minister) says “The body of Christ” when administering the host, and “The blood of Christ” when presenting the chalice, the communicant who receives either one receives Christ, whole and entire savior of the world and the High priest of the sacrifice down to and including his toenail.
I am guilty before the RCC, but not before God.
**
Hi Non,
That is a nice self satifying statement. However my friend if the RCC is God’s real church, as we believe, you are guilty before both. Many people like OJ Simpson, don’t believe they are guilty of breaking civil law because of their personal belief system. Such it is with God’s laws, but the punishment will be much greater. It isn’t our job to judge. God will judge all of us according to our deeds. What should concern you is obeying all God’s laws and commandments even if you don’t like them and please remember to pray Prayer is the answer to every question.**
Thank you for the (name removed by moderator)ut, I will try to do what i usually, which is stick with Scripture.
But I don’t think you do. How do you stick with scriptures when we tell you what the correct interpretation is and you basically say I have my mind made up and won’t change it even if you do show me that scripture demands that I do differently?
I am learning soo much about the hearts and minds of Catholics, which has given me a greater understanding of the devout RCC’s in my family.
**Having been around the world and exposed to many cultures and people. I can tell you that you must learn each person’s heart and mind seperately. We are all individuals. We all are sinners and hopefully on some level we all are saints. **
.thanks everyone for that.
**
Please keep asking questions and even if you don’t agree understand that the answers given will be sincere and true as we are taught by Jesus’ real church without corruption and distortion of His original message. Jesus is the head of the mystical body of Christ. Everyone in the catholic church don’t agree on unimportant things, but on the important we must agree or be just like Protestants, false christians.
God Bless**
Putting up with me, made her that way!***Death was introduced to the world because it was the consequence of disobedience to God. The act of eating the fruit was merely the method by which the disobedience occured.**Hi BM,
We always have to remember that an analogy is not the same thing as the same thing. But in this case it actually doesn’t matter. What is important is that Jesus wasn’t speaking Analogically"
We know that early christians “devoted themselves to the breaking of the bread and to the prayers” Acts 2:42. They “met to break bread” Acts 20:7. The wording shows that the breaking of bread was the purpose of the meeting and central to their discussions together and unity. The “Bread of Life” Jn 6:23 was a central part of Christian Sunday worship, as it is to every real christian.
“. . . Whoever eats (Greek:* trogon* ) me will live because of me. . . Also the one who feeds (trogon) on my flesh will have life . . .” John 6 :48-58
The normal word in Greek for “eat” is Phagon. In this passage the author uses Trogon which literally means to “crunch” or “gnaw”. Not a passive eat but an active chewing! It can not just a metaphor. The verb tense of Trogon implies continuous consumption**. So it implies the need to continue to eat Jesus’ body and drink his blood.
Remember Death was introduced to humanity through eating the forbidden fruit. The act of actually eating a food that God said not to eat. Now Life has been restored to humanity through the eating the Body of Christ the Jesus said to eat. Eternal life is received by actually eating the “bread of life”. That is Christ’s flesh.
Why can’t people see this, BM? That is so easy. When Satan corrupted the minds of the good people attempting to correct errors in our church 500 years ago. He knew that If He didn’t make lies and deceive them they would return to worship the real Jersus in His church established. He couldn’t let that happen. So He clouds their minds to the truth. It can be removed by prayer. Not only their prayers but we can pray for them. My local group of 9,000 pray the rosary every day for the conversion of sinners, and the end of abortion. We have a international group of just over 1 Million doing the same thing daily. I actually don’t think Protestant understand that their eternal souls are actually in danger of eternal damnation. God won’t accept any excuses. he is mercyful, but He gives most intelligent people the ability to comprehend the truth when they hear it. The empty yearning that protestants have can only be filled by the real body of christ being eaten, or so the Catholic Church teaches.
God Bless
Yes, I use in persona Christi, too, in explaining it. When I explain it, that is.Good job on the Eucharist/victim issue. In my other post, I almost went into the *alter Christus * idea, but didn’t.
** Hi Jim,
in persona Christi is the teaching of the church it is the best understanding of the mystery of what happens during the Mass. **
I haven’t slept over in a long time. But I visit daily.
** :imsorry: Prayers help. They solve all problems. You are in my prayers, Jim**
RE: war. No, not where people were trying to hurt me and break my toys. I was lucky.
**Ref War: I was a Ranger, I killed 54 enemy soldiers in 'Nam. Then at the age of 21, while in a tunnel, I was shot in the chest, stomach and left hand and spent 14 months in a hospital, being rehabilitated, before returning to active duty. During battles and in hospital, I had many friends die in my arms. Even during the hell of 'Nam I always knew God was with me and protecting me. I almost died several times. I have been in constant pain since 1966. I retired in 1990 as an E-9 with 27 years active service. My greatest accomplishment 40 years of marriage to a saint.
We all fight our own battles. God will help us win if we pray and trust in Him and His mercy.**
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