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benedictus2
Guest
Actually that is true. But it doesn’t change the fact that those who held to the memorialist view came rather late in the piece. 1500 years late. The early Christians believed in the Real Presence.
Protestants: Do you believe that Christ is truly present in the communion elements of bread and wine?
- Status
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tqualey
Guest
Hi, Grampben,
This is an excellent distinction you have made.
Luther was not the first one to fail in the Faith - goodness, there is a long line dating back to Judas. The issue, at least as I appreciate it, deals with the Portestant revolt in the 16th century. All of the ‘reformers’ disagreed with one another (ah, the price one pays for these romps through personal interpretation )
2Peter 1:19-21 "Moreover, we possess the prophetic message that is altogether reliable. You will do well to be attentive to it, as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts. Know this first of all, that there is no prophecy of scripture that is a matter of personal interpretation, for no prophecy ever came through human will; but rather human beings moved by the holy Spirit spoke under the influence of God."
As I read the post, it appeared to me that Benedictus2 was focused on the error (denying the Real Presence). While making the historical correction is fine - it seems to be only a tangent. May I suggest a return to the topic: “Do you believe tht Christ is truly present?”
Hey, aren’t you with the group that swears that Creation took place in six days? Because this is literally what it says? Well, in John 6 we have the recorded words of Christ explaining what the Eucharist is, and in the Last Supper account of Matthew, Mark and Luke, Christ tells them that, “THIS IS MY BODY”.
Now, to my way of thinking - anyone willing to go to the mat over an issue of six days should surely have no trouble with Christ’s own words. Unless, of course, Christ was a liar and fraud and had no idea what He was talking about? or tht Christ did not have the Power or Authority to do what He said He was doing? And then, of course, the Holy Spirit that He promised to His Chruch to teach all things and prevent the gates of Hell from winning, didn’t really do any of this. So, for 1500+ years after His Death - His Church floundered in error - with the Gates of Hell laughing its hinges off - until ‘saved’ by this disgrunteled bunch of malcontents who dove head first into the hole of personal interpretation.
Think it over. This is serious matter. Look how they fought (and killed one another, e.g. Calvin’s lack of tolerance for a fellow heretic.) Look at all the Protestant churches today - surely there can be no stronger witness to how Truth is One and error is multiple.
God bless
This is an excellent distinction you have made.
Unfortunately, this would be similar to arguing about the number of gallons of sea water per minute pourig into the gashed hull of the Titanic after the iceberg accident - when the real issue is that is being addressed is: the boat is sinking.
Luther was not the first one to fail in the Faith - goodness, there is a long line dating back to Judas. The issue, at least as I appreciate it, deals with the Portestant revolt in the 16th century. All of the ‘reformers’ disagreed with one another (ah, the price one pays for these romps through personal interpretation
)2Peter 1:19-21 "Moreover, we possess the prophetic message that is altogether reliable. You will do well to be attentive to it, as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts. Know this first of all, that there is no prophecy of scripture that is a matter of personal interpretation, for no prophecy ever came through human will; but rather human beings moved by the holy Spirit spoke under the influence of God."
As I read the post, it appeared to me that Benedictus2 was focused on the error (denying the Real Presence). While making the historical correction is fine - it seems to be only a tangent. May I suggest a return to the topic: “Do you believe tht Christ is truly present?”
Hey, aren’t you with the group that swears that Creation took place in six days? Because this is literally what it says? Well, in John 6 we have the recorded words of Christ explaining what the Eucharist is, and in the Last Supper account of Matthew, Mark and Luke, Christ tells them that, “THIS IS MY BODY”.
Now, to my way of thinking - anyone willing to go to the mat over an issue of six days should surely have no trouble with Christ’s own words. Unless, of course, Christ was a liar and fraud and had no idea what He was talking about? or tht Christ did not have the Power or Authority to do what He said He was doing? And then, of course, the Holy Spirit that He promised to His Chruch to teach all things and prevent the gates of Hell from winning, didn’t really do any of this. So, for 1500+ years after His Death - His Church floundered in error - with the Gates of Hell laughing its hinges off - until ‘saved’ by this disgrunteled bunch of malcontents who dove head first into the hole of personal interpretation.
Think it over. This is serious matter. Look how they fought (and killed one another, e.g. Calvin’s lack of tolerance for a fellow heretic.) Look at all the Protestant churches today - surely there can be no stronger witness to how Truth is One and error is multiple.
God bless
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grampben
Guest
Both of you. I was not denying the consistent christian belief in the real presence.
All I was doing was correcting a mistake. Benedictus, you said that at the time of the reformation all christians believed in the real presence, and that memorialism didn’t come into play until later. I was correcting that erroneus statement.
God Bless you guys.
All I was doing was correcting a mistake. Benedictus, you said that at the time of the reformation all christians believed in the real presence, and that memorialism didn’t come into play until later. I was correcting that erroneus statement.
God Bless you guys.
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Bill_Pick
Guest
" you said that at the time of the reformation all christians believed in the real presence," THIS IS WHAT YOU SAID,CAN YOU PLEASE GIVE US SOME FACTS THAT HE/SHE IS NOT RIGHT
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Cinette
Guest
The topic discussed on this thread is very close to the hearts of Catholics and our core beliefs. Protestants can be forgiven for not believing and not understanding but ignorance is dangerous. We can present the truth and they can reject it. Only the Holy Spirit can gift them with the gift of Faith.
In our debates we do get frustrated and sometimes heated. We should not forget that our faith is foreign to non-Catholics and also the fact that they have often been fed a lot of lies. These lies have been passed down the generations and many are not to blame for buying into the lies. Most of us believe lies when we believe all we read in the Media for example – we cannot always distinguish the truth from a lie.
Catholics have the witness of 2000 years. There have been turbulent years but the Church, through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit has overcome the obstacles, heresies, abuses, the violent attacks, corruption of certain clergy……… These were exposed, combated and corrected. “A luta continua” - and will continue until the 2nd coming. The evil one will never stop trying to lead us astray but we will overcome all these influences if we remain faithful to the Word, cultivate a close personal relationship with the Lord and seek his grace through the Sacraments.
When my husband was on his journey, (he had been influenced by a Jewish scientist to believe in God), he began to attend Mass with me and did so for 11 years before he converted. One thing which I noticed in particular was the effect of other worshippers around us during Mass – my husband was moved by their faith and reverence. We do influence one another especially if we live our faith and we can never know what exactly can touch another person. God is a God of surprises and his ways and timing are not ours.
We are influenced by the lives of the Saints (our mentors) and the witness of our contemporaries. Over the past ten years, in the United States alone, there have been hundreds if not thousands of Protestant Ministers (as well as from non Christian religions eg JW, SDA and even Mormons) who have come to see the light. In fact one can only look at The Journey Home programme presented by Marcus Grodi on EWTN (who was also a Protestant Minister) – each week he interviews converts and his programme has been going on for over 11 years. He has a special Ministry for Ministers of Protestant religions who want to convert or seek answers. We are living in the era of the Holy Spirit where more and more people are responding to the urgings of their heart and seeking the truth.
I would like to present an excerpt from Scott Hahn’s book “The Lamb’s Supper” for those on this thread who “pooh pooh” our Catholic Faith and core beliefs:
What I found at my First Mass
There I stood, a man incognito, A Protestant minister in plainclothes, slipping into the back of a Catholic chapel in Milwaukee to witness my first Mass. Curiosity had driven me there, and I still didn’t feel sure that it was healthy curiosity. Studying the writings of the earliest Christians, I’d found countless references to “the liturgy” “the Eucharist,” “sacrifice”. For those first Christians, the bible – the book I loved above all – was incomprehensible apart from the event that today’s Catholics called “the Mass.”
I wanted to understand the early Christians; yet I’d had no experience of liturgy. So I persuaded myself to go and see, as a sort of academic exercise, but vowing all along that I would neither kneel nor take part in idolatry.
I took my seat in the shadows, in a pew at the very back of that basement chapel. Before me were a goodly number of worshippers, men and women of all ages. Their genuflections impressed me, as did their apparent concentration in prayer. Then a bell rang, and they all stood as the priest emerged from a door beside the altar.
Unsure of myself, I remained seated, For years, as an evangelical Calvanist, I’d been trained to believe that the Mass was the ultimate sacrilege a human could commit. The Mass, I had been taught, was a ritual that purported to “re-sacrifice Jesus Christ.” So I would remain an observer. I would stay seated, with my bible open beside me.
…continued
In our debates we do get frustrated and sometimes heated. We should not forget that our faith is foreign to non-Catholics and also the fact that they have often been fed a lot of lies. These lies have been passed down the generations and many are not to blame for buying into the lies. Most of us believe lies when we believe all we read in the Media for example – we cannot always distinguish the truth from a lie.
Catholics have the witness of 2000 years. There have been turbulent years but the Church, through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit has overcome the obstacles, heresies, abuses, the violent attacks, corruption of certain clergy……… These were exposed, combated and corrected. “A luta continua” - and will continue until the 2nd coming. The evil one will never stop trying to lead us astray but we will overcome all these influences if we remain faithful to the Word, cultivate a close personal relationship with the Lord and seek his grace through the Sacraments.
When my husband was on his journey, (he had been influenced by a Jewish scientist to believe in God), he began to attend Mass with me and did so for 11 years before he converted. One thing which I noticed in particular was the effect of other worshippers around us during Mass – my husband was moved by their faith and reverence. We do influence one another especially if we live our faith and we can never know what exactly can touch another person. God is a God of surprises and his ways and timing are not ours.
We are influenced by the lives of the Saints (our mentors) and the witness of our contemporaries. Over the past ten years, in the United States alone, there have been hundreds if not thousands of Protestant Ministers (as well as from non Christian religions eg JW, SDA and even Mormons) who have come to see the light. In fact one can only look at The Journey Home programme presented by Marcus Grodi on EWTN (who was also a Protestant Minister) – each week he interviews converts and his programme has been going on for over 11 years. He has a special Ministry for Ministers of Protestant religions who want to convert or seek answers. We are living in the era of the Holy Spirit where more and more people are responding to the urgings of their heart and seeking the truth.
I would like to present an excerpt from Scott Hahn’s book “The Lamb’s Supper” for those on this thread who “pooh pooh” our Catholic Faith and core beliefs:
What I found at my First Mass
There I stood, a man incognito, A Protestant minister in plainclothes, slipping into the back of a Catholic chapel in Milwaukee to witness my first Mass. Curiosity had driven me there, and I still didn’t feel sure that it was healthy curiosity. Studying the writings of the earliest Christians, I’d found countless references to “the liturgy” “the Eucharist,” “sacrifice”. For those first Christians, the bible – the book I loved above all – was incomprehensible apart from the event that today’s Catholics called “the Mass.”
I wanted to understand the early Christians; yet I’d had no experience of liturgy. So I persuaded myself to go and see, as a sort of academic exercise, but vowing all along that I would neither kneel nor take part in idolatry.
I took my seat in the shadows, in a pew at the very back of that basement chapel. Before me were a goodly number of worshippers, men and women of all ages. Their genuflections impressed me, as did their apparent concentration in prayer. Then a bell rang, and they all stood as the priest emerged from a door beside the altar.
Unsure of myself, I remained seated, For years, as an evangelical Calvanist, I’d been trained to believe that the Mass was the ultimate sacrilege a human could commit. The Mass, I had been taught, was a ritual that purported to “re-sacrifice Jesus Christ.” So I would remain an observer. I would stay seated, with my bible open beside me.
…continued
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Cinette
Guest
Soaked in Scripture
As the Mass moved on, however, something hit me. My bible wasn’t just beside me. It was before me – in the words of the Mass! One line was from Isaish, another from the Psalms, another from Paul. The experience was overwhelming. I wanted to stop everything and shout, “Hey, can I explain what’s happening from Scripture? This is great!” Still, I maintained my observer status. I remained on the sidelines until I heard the priest pronounce the words of consecration: “This is My body…….This is the cup of My blood.”
Then I felt all my doubt drain away. As I saw the priest raise that white host, I felt a prayer surge from my heart in a whisper: My Lord and my God. That’s really you!”
I was what you might call a basket case from that point. I couldn’t imagine a greater excitement that what those words had worked upon me. Yet the experience was intensified just a moment later, when I heard the congregation recite: “Lamb of God…….Lamb of God……….Lamb of God,” and the priest respond, “This is the Lamb of God……” as he raised the host.
In less than a minute, the phrase “Lamb of God” had rung out four times. From long years of studying the bible, I immediately knew where I was. I was in the Book of Revelation, where Jesus is called the Lamb no less than twenty-eight times in twenty-two chapters. I was at the marriage feast that John describes at the end of that very last book of the bible. I was before the throne of heaven, where Jesus is hailed forever as the Lamb. I wasn’t ready for this, though – I was at Mass!
………………………… “…….the Mass – now turned out to be the event that sealed God’s covenant. “This is the cup of My blood, the blood of the new and everlasting covenant.”…….
……………….Hahn quotes a Protestant scholar Leonard Thompson: “Even a cursory reading of the Book of Revelation shows the presence of liturgical language set in worship……[T]he language of worship plays an important role in unifying the book.”
The reader may never convert to the Catholic faith – he has free will and therefore a choice. But at least he can choose to have an open mind and take an honest look at what is presented to him. There are some awesome postings on this thread and it would be a pity if the reader chose to ignore the truth. There is a quotation from St Augustine:
**“Seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand.” **
To ancient Israel the lamb was identified with sacrifice and sacrifice is one of the most primal forms of worship.
The Mass has it origin in this form of worship. Whereas the Israelites would offer lambs as sacrifice so Jesus, the Lamb of God (Jesus) offered himself as a sacrifice for our sins. The book details this clearly and simply. Sacrifices served as a way of solemnity sealing an agreement or oath, a covenant before God. Sacrifice could also be an act of renunciation and sorrow for sins. The person offering sacrifice recognized that his sins deserved death; he offered the animal’s life in place of his own.
It is not enough that Christ bled and died for our sake. Now we have our part to play. As with the Old Covenant, so with the new. If you want to mark your covenant with God, to seal your covenant with God, to renew your covenant with God, you have to eat the Lamb – the paschal lamb who is our unleavened bread. It begins to sound familiar. “Unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink His blood you have no life in you.” (Jn 6:54)
This is more thoroughly explained in detail. I suggest anyone who has an open mind and wishes to understand (some people have fixed ideas and will not want to understand) then perhaps it would be a good idea to get Scott Hahn’s book “The Lamb’s Supper”. It’s all there.
As the Mass moved on, however, something hit me. My bible wasn’t just beside me. It was before me – in the words of the Mass! One line was from Isaish, another from the Psalms, another from Paul. The experience was overwhelming. I wanted to stop everything and shout, “Hey, can I explain what’s happening from Scripture? This is great!” Still, I maintained my observer status. I remained on the sidelines until I heard the priest pronounce the words of consecration: “This is My body…….This is the cup of My blood.”
Then I felt all my doubt drain away. As I saw the priest raise that white host, I felt a prayer surge from my heart in a whisper: My Lord and my God. That’s really you!”
I was what you might call a basket case from that point. I couldn’t imagine a greater excitement that what those words had worked upon me. Yet the experience was intensified just a moment later, when I heard the congregation recite: “Lamb of God…….Lamb of God……….Lamb of God,” and the priest respond, “This is the Lamb of God……” as he raised the host.
In less than a minute, the phrase “Lamb of God” had rung out four times. From long years of studying the bible, I immediately knew where I was. I was in the Book of Revelation, where Jesus is called the Lamb no less than twenty-eight times in twenty-two chapters. I was at the marriage feast that John describes at the end of that very last book of the bible. I was before the throne of heaven, where Jesus is hailed forever as the Lamb. I wasn’t ready for this, though – I was at Mass!
………………………… “…….the Mass – now turned out to be the event that sealed God’s covenant. “This is the cup of My blood, the blood of the new and everlasting covenant.”…….
……………….Hahn quotes a Protestant scholar Leonard Thompson: “Even a cursory reading of the Book of Revelation shows the presence of liturgical language set in worship……[T]he language of worship plays an important role in unifying the book.”
The reader may never convert to the Catholic faith – he has free will and therefore a choice. But at least he can choose to have an open mind and take an honest look at what is presented to him. There are some awesome postings on this thread and it would be a pity if the reader chose to ignore the truth. There is a quotation from St Augustine:
**“Seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand.” **
- St Augustine
To ancient Israel the lamb was identified with sacrifice and sacrifice is one of the most primal forms of worship.
The Mass has it origin in this form of worship. Whereas the Israelites would offer lambs as sacrifice so Jesus, the Lamb of God (Jesus) offered himself as a sacrifice for our sins. The book details this clearly and simply. Sacrifices served as a way of solemnity sealing an agreement or oath, a covenant before God. Sacrifice could also be an act of renunciation and sorrow for sins. The person offering sacrifice recognized that his sins deserved death; he offered the animal’s life in place of his own.
It is not enough that Christ bled and died for our sake. Now we have our part to play. As with the Old Covenant, so with the new. If you want to mark your covenant with God, to seal your covenant with God, to renew your covenant with God, you have to eat the Lamb – the paschal lamb who is our unleavened bread. It begins to sound familiar. “Unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink His blood you have no life in you.” (Jn 6:54)
This is more thoroughly explained in detail. I suggest anyone who has an open mind and wishes to understand (some people have fixed ideas and will not want to understand) then perhaps it would be a good idea to get Scott Hahn’s book “The Lamb’s Supper”. It’s all there.
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Protestant101
Guest
The Church was and is built upon Jesus - not Peter. Peter may have been “singled out” but so is every Christian in our Lord’s Church!!
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Protestant101
Guest
I enjoyed your testimony about how your Mass has affected you and your husband. I know that some Catholics do experience Christ in the Eucharist Service that they hold so dear.
I would add to that that it is not very likely that they thus experience Jesus, because of the piece of bread they eat - no matter how many times the priest “blesses” it. It is because of the written Word which they do dwell upon during their service that they are thus blessed by Christ’s presence - for He is ever present through and in His Word. The written Word cannot be separated from the Person of the Word, they are both a part of The One…
but then we could get into the line of theology which is well-supported by the Bible that tells us there is life in just a look! No Bible reading! No bread eating! Just look and live!! (re the brazen serpent).
I have been to several Masses, and even took one of the wafers or whatever you guys call them once. I was invited to by a Catholic in the congregation. I got absolutely nothing out of any of it, until I heard a Scripture that was being read, and even though I thought the whole Mass thing was a bit hokey; the scripture turned out to be something I REALLY NEEDED to hear at the time.
So the question is not, “Can one possibly be blessed at the Eucharist?” But, rather, what is The Source of the blessing? And what is the nature of the blessing?
Miracles can never cut the mustard for “proof,” for everyone who wants to conjure up their own religion, which I think the original catholic Church has done, can always drum up a few miracles, and some “testimonies;” but a true Christian will always want to test these by God’s Word.
I don’t feel that the Pope, or other Catholic leadership are doing a good job of discerning and promulgating the Bible truth of The Lord’s Supper, which all Christians should participate in and understand better. The related doctrines they spread throughout the world about Jesus being a piece of bread - is heretic, and falsehood, and misleads millions about Christ’s true character and ministry.
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grampben
Guest
I did. Why don’t you google the name I gave: Huldrych Zwingli.
He was at the time of Luther, and was a memorialist.
here’s some information on him and his theology.
Also, Calvin believed in a spiritual presence, not physical presence and was thus in between Zwingli and Luther on eucharistic issues.
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Protestant101
Guest
You can’t even get my user name right so what makes you think you have figured out my beliefs? The website that you gave which supposedly explains my beliefs is nothing short of a satanic cult. It has nothing to do with Christianity at all, on either side of the fence. It is interesting to watch you clutching at straws, so desperate to discredit me or my beliefs that you are scrounging about in non-Catholic sources for “truth” about anything!! Under the circumstances; I refuse to accept any prayer of your’s on my “behalf.”**Protestant, you do realize the problem dont you? Many Catholics just don’t understand a lot about SDAs. It even confuses me and I have read a lot about your cult! Do you mind if I share a little information, so the others can understand about your beliefs? Thanks!**
Click ON: Understanding Protestant101 and His beliefs.
**I hope that helps.We should all understand each others beliefs and points of view.
It makes for better discussion and clears the air, don’t you think?
**You remain in my prayers! **
**God Bless **
A more accurate website that reflects what I believe and why can be found here:
PROTESTANT 101
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Bill_Pick
Guest
A fool takes no pleasure in understanding, but only in expressing his opinion."
Proverbs 18:
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Cinette
Guest
The wisdom of this Proverb applies here. I agree wholeheartedly.
Protestant101 - I think you have proved to me that you are not a serious debater. I have spent enough time in trying to make you see a few truths but you are careless and do not read my posts. So I am not going to waste my time anymore.
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grampben
Guest
Well you make him believe that what you say is truth is indeed truth. If he believed that there would be no debate, so the fact that he doesn’t believe that what you call truth is truth makes him a better debater than he would be if he agreedThe wisdom of this Proverb applies here. I agree wholeheartedly.
Protestant101 - I think you have proved to me that you are not a serious debater. I have spent enough time in trying to make you see a few truths but you are careless and do not read my posts. So I am not going to waste my time anymore.
Cinette, I for one appreciate your posts
God bless.
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Cinette
Guest
I appreciate you too (sometimes - LOL) grampben! Thank you.Well you make him believe that what you say is truth is indeed truth. If he believed that there would be no debate, so the fact that he doesn’t believe that what you call truth is truth makes him a better debater than he would be if he agreed
Cinette, I for one appreciate your posts
God bless.
You see, what disappointed me was to note the speed with which Protestant101 responded. This is not the kind of thing you speed read and immediately post a response. No, it is something on which one reflects and pauses - takes it in. As I said I understand that for people who come from a different cultural and religious environment our Faith may appear strange. But when you come on a thread with the above title you come to enquire and learn and discuss. You show respect and try to see from the other person’s point of view or cultural and religious environment.
I only mentioned something about my husband’s journey - it was an aside. My post was focused on Scott Hahn’s (an ex Protestant Minister) conversion experience of the Mass and the Eucharist. I quoted a little from the book which is a very interesting book. The whole thing went over Protestant101 head obviously. I feel sorry for him and that quote from Proverbs by Bill Pick is superb and hits the nail on the head.
From now on I will only engage with people who think and are wise. People like you (sometimes!
)Cinette
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grampben
Guest
Ha! Scott Hahn is a great apologist (and I’m not even catholic!) with an interesting conversion experience.I appreciate you too (sometimes - LOL) grampben! Thank you.
You see, what disappointed me was to note the speed with which Protestant101 responded. This is not the kind of thing you speed read and immediately post a response. No, it is something on which one reflects and pauses - takes it in. As I said I understand that for people who come from a different cultural and religious environment our Faith may appear strange. But when you come on a thread with the above title you come to enquire and learn and discuss. You show respect and try to see from the other person’s point of view or cultural and religious environment.
I only mentioned something about my husband’s journey - it was an aside. My post was focused on Scott Hahn’s (an ex Protestant Minister) conversion experience of the Mass and the Eucharist. I quoted a little from the book which is a very interesting book. The whole thing went over Protestant101 head obviously. I feel sorry for him and that quote from Proverbs by Bill Pick is superb and hits the nail on the head.
From now on I will only engage with people who think and are wise. People like you (sometimes!
Cinette
I’m not saying you should avoid Protestant101, he certainly isn’t the worst of people here. But I agree, there are many people here, catholic, protestant, non-christian, who are here only to put forward what they think, and not listen to what others have to say. I have started avoiding these people as I want dialogue, not personal attack! (Which often is what threads here descend too).
(Usually) Cinette, you take in what people have to say. It really helps the dialogue. If one cannot listen to another person because the other person believes in something different, to me it shows a weakness in ones own faith! Again, I appreciate your posts.
God bless.
T
tqualey
Guest
Hi, Protestant101
For a minute there, I thought I saw a ray of light coming through that anti-Catholic haze? Hmmm … ooops… my mistake. Let’s see if I can help out with this tangle of feelings and distress…
Second item: for almost the 1st 100 years there was no completely written ‘Bible’ as we know it today. When the Holy Spirit came on Pentecost, He did not deliver a book.
The Apostles verbally taught those that came to hear the Word of God. St. Paul verbally taught Tim - and, yes, Paul also wrote to many places - but, his writings were to those he could not physically get to.
Christians did not have a Canon until the 4th Century - according to your statement above, we all just floundered around obviously ‘separated from the Word’. But guess what - that did not happen. Christ founded His Church FIRST and the Bible came afterwards. Just do the math - the first couple of centuries what do you think happened?
May I suggest that a quick read through from Matthew to John and look how many times Jesus used a snake, snake metaphore, healed with a snake or had anything to do with any snake. I count 0 times. Don’t go looking for snakes - look to Christ - and the Word you claim to be following but seem to systematically re-write and then dispute when challenged.
I am not entirely sure what you want for ‘proof’. The Jews claimed that Christ died and His Body was stolen from the grave (forget about the guards that were posted). Prior to that, the Jews witnessed Jesus raise Lazarus from the dead - and refused to believe it was so - and, in fact, began the final stage of their plot to kill Christ as a direct result.
The claim for demanding ‘proof’ can be a very unforgiving master. Are you willing to present your ‘proof’ for ‘experience’ and ‘feeling’? Think twice - demand the same of yourself as you are demanding of others.
Remember that imagination exercise I gave at the start of this post? You know, telling Christ that He was not a piece of Bread. How do you respond to the Master, the night before He dies that He does not know what He is doing? that He is misleading His Apostles and that this is just Bread? Do you have a ‘feeling’ about how He will respond from a biblical basis?
God bless
For a minute there, I thought I saw a ray of light coming through that anti-Catholic haze? Hmmm … ooops… my mistake. Let’s see if I can help out with this tangle of feelings and distress…
Use your imagination: put yourself at the Last Supper - this Jewish ritual meal of Passover. Read the account as written in Matthew, Mark and Luke. Then find yourself steppping forward and saying, “Ah, excuse me, Lord, but in no way is the piece of Bread, You. What are You telling these Apostles this for? Get serious - it is the ‘experience’ we are interested in … You know… the ‘feeling’.” Then sort of stand there and listen for the answer. Remember, now - the response must be Biblical. And this time, try a real source - there is nothing in the Bible about ‘experience’.
First thing up: do you have a reference for this?
Second item: for almost the 1st 100 years there was no completely written ‘Bible’ as we know it today. When the Holy Spirit came on Pentecost, He did not deliver a book.
The Apostles verbally taught those that came to hear the Word of God. St. Paul verbally taught Tim - and, yes, Paul also wrote to many places - but, his writings were to those he could not physically get to.
Christians did not have a Canon until the 4th Century - according to your statement above, we all just floundered around obviously ‘separated from the Word’. But guess what - that did not happen. Christ founded His Church FIRST and the Bible came afterwards. Just do the math - the first couple of centuries what do you think happened?
Going all the way back to the Book of Numbers and the snake had to take a lot of work. But we are no longer under the Old Covenant. Remember, Christ freed us from the Law and brought us as Adopted sons of God - so that we can cry “Abba!” (Rom 8:15) We are not crying to a snake.
May I suggest that a quick read through from Matthew to John and look how many times Jesus used a snake, snake metaphore, healed with a snake or had anything to do with any snake. I count 0 times. Don’t go looking for snakes - look to Christ - and the Word you claim to be following but seem to systematically re-write and then dispute when challenged.
Thought you had outgrown name calling? You are just going to have to try harder. There is no conjuring on the part of Catholics. By the way, just what is the origin of your religion? Without knowing any more then I do, I can honestly tell you the following: It is not from Christ, it is not Apostolic, and it is is not united in either doctrine or practice.
I am not entirely sure what you want for ‘proof’. The Jews claimed that Christ died and His Body was stolen from the grave (forget about the guards that were posted). Prior to that, the Jews witnessed Jesus raise Lazarus from the dead - and refused to believe it was so - and, in fact, began the final stage of their plot to kill Christ as a direct result.
The claim for demanding ‘proof’ can be a very unforgiving master. Are you willing to present your ‘proof’ for ‘experience’ and ‘feeling’? Think twice - demand the same of yourself as you are demanding of others.
You are generous to a fault in providing opinions based on your ‘feelings’. Unfortunately, these ‘feelings’ do not have sturdy legs and will not support the weight of any argument - except the one being used that says, “It’s so because I said it is so.” Time to move on.
Remember that imagination exercise I gave at the start of this post? You know, telling Christ that He was not a piece of Bread. How do you respond to the Master, the night before He dies that He does not know what He is doing? that He is misleading His Apostles and that this is just Bread? Do you have a ‘feeling’ about how He will respond from a biblical basis?
God bless
N
NonCatholic
Guest
Apology accepted…honest mistake.
Anyway you slice it the context is correct the washing is by or of the Word…this is basic to the salvation message.
N
NonCatholic
Guest
Realcatholicgk: This post is borderline belligerent and you need to be careful. If someone were posting the same immature, sarcastic and offensive things you have written here about the Catholic faith, then I think there would be a real problem. Not to mention you are way off topic, which we all do from time to time.**
Hi Protestant,
How are you? It seems like you are wrong again! :whacky: It is from the church’s infancy which started 2,000 years ago not in the 1800s like your cult. And I was wondering, how do you know who or what the real Protestants follow? Don’t you guys follow the prophet Ellen G. White, and her plagiarized writings? I have read that it was she who taught the foolishness that you “claim” as the real Truth! I realize that you try real hard to throw her over to the side in some kind of weird ritual that you won’t or aren’t allowed to explain! Is that a secret ceremony in your faith. Is there actually an effigy of her that is thrown around during your worship services? Another thing I was wanting to ask you.
Do you think that Jesus in the water used to wash the feet? Is that water drank as part of your communion service? Do you think it becames Jesus’ blood? I heard you refere to being washed in Jesus’ blood several times. Is that what you meant? Or do you perhaps use it as just an example of his blood?
Reference Ellen G White isn’t she kind of like a preverted "Jesus"representation? Aren’t her writings followed rather than Jesus’ words in the scriptures? Is all the stuff she was caught stealing from all the other books still followed or was it all thrown over to the side with her?
Protestant, you do realize the problem dont you? Many Catholics just don’t understand a lot about SDAs. It even confuses me and I have read a lot about your cult! Do you mind if I share a little information, so the others can understand about your beliefs? Thanks!
Click ON: Understanding Protestant101 and His beliefs. **
I hope that helps.
You remain in my prayers!
God Bless
Also, Protestant 101 tone down on the Catholic faith; we can all get our points across while maintaining some level of personal integrity. If you stick to Scripture you will always come from a place of strength.
I know this sounds like a lecture, but the intent is a reminder…not to just both of you, but all of us.
B
benedictus2
Guest
Actually not according to this verse. If you take a look, it says “cleanse her with the washing of water by the word” which means that it is the water that was washed, made clean by the word. But in turn, it is the water (now cleansed) that cleanses the Church.
To be able to get your meaning out of this verse, it should have read “cleanse her by the water of the word”. But that is not what it says at all.
So as I said, this really goes to the heart of water baptism theology. That we are cleansed by water but only because through Christ’s own baptism, that water has been cleansed.
And this is very different to your point that it is the word that cleanses and that the water is the word because it is clear from this verse that the water IS NOT the word.
B
benedictus2
Guest
Okay folks, let’s get something right. I am a she. Happy to be of our Blessed Mother’s gender.
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