Protestants: Do you REALLY believe Scripture??

[distracted]

Those Protestants who believe in sola fide and/or sola scirptura: How do you explain these scriptures:

St. Mark 10:17: [A man asked Jesus:] What must i do to inherit eternal life?" Jesus answered him… “You know the Commandments…[He lists them]”. He… said… “Teacher, all of these i have observed from my youth.” Jesus… said to him, “You are lacking in one thing. Go, sell what you have, and give to [the] poor and you will have treasure in Heaven; then come, follow Me.”

2 Thessalonians 1:7: … Jesus from Heaven with his mighty angels, in blazing fire, infliciting punishment on those who do not acknowldege God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. These will pay the penalty of eternal ruin, separated from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his power…

I know many Catholics and Protestants, both, who do not obey ALL of what the gospels say… (myself included)

Not trying to be a smart – but… i can’t help but think:

We had all better HOPE with all our hearts that there not only IS a Purgatory but that we make it there.

(Of course, we Catholics know Purgatory exists [St. Matthew 18:23, 1 Cor 3:13, Rev 21:27, etc…])

 

[Robbinson]

***In the interests of full disclosure, I’m a Protestant leaning towards Catholicism, so I don’t disagree with your implied premise (that faith alone is not sufficient for salvation). Nevertheless, I’ll try to address your question re: a Protestant interpretation of those verses (one possible interpretation): See bold italized responses ***

Those Protestants who believe in sola fide and/or sola scirptura: How do you explain these scriptures:

St. Mark 10:17: [A man asked Jesus:] What must i do to inherit eternal life?" Jesus answered him… “You know the Commandments…[He lists them]”. He… said… “Teacher, all of these i have observed from my youth.” Jesus… said to him, “You are lacking in one thing. Go, sell what you have, and give to [the] poor and you will have treasure in Heaven; then come, follow Me.”

Reply: An interpretation is that here Jesus is speaking to someone who is still under the Mosaic Law and demonstrating the need to satisfy all of the 10 commandments. By showing the young righ man that he would be unwilling to relinquish his earthly goods and follow Christ, Jesus convicted him of violating the commandment against idolotry (the love and worship of earthly goods above God)

2 Thessalonians 1:7: … Jesus from Heaven with his mighty angels, in blazing fire, infliciting punishment on those who do not acknowldege God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. These will pay the penalty of eternal ruin, separated from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his power…

Reply: An interpretation is that this refers to those who do not “obey” the gospel by accepting Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour and thus are not saved and are doomed to eternal torment in hell

I know many Catholics and Protestants, both, who do not obey ALL of what the gospels say… (myself included)

Not trying to be a smart – but… i can’t help but think:

We had all better HOPE with all our hearts that there not only IS a Purgatory but that we make it there.

(Of course, we Catholics know Purgatory exists [St. Matthew 18:23, 1 Cor 3:13, Rev 21:27, etc…])

Reply: I agree with you - though Protestants for the most part reject the concept of purgatory

 

[distracted]

***In the interests of full disclosure, I’m a Protestant leaning towards Catholicism, so I don’t disagree with your implied premise (that faith alone is not sufficient for salvation). Nevertheless, I’ll try to address your question re: a Protestant interpretation of those verses (one possible interpretation): See bold italized responses ***

Reply: I agree with you - though Protestants for the most part reject the concept of purgatory

I would really like to hear your spiritual background, if you would care to share… I mean, what religion are you coming from and why are you thinking of converting to Catholicism?? Was it because of something said here at the forums and/or something else???

thanks for the explanation about that one passage (the Mosaic laws, etc.) but i don’t know how they can rationalize it away like that…

If that had been what Jesus meant, he would have said that… He said what he said… It seems to add that interpretation to the word of Christ is adding to scripture… something Prots always accuse Catholics of doing…

 

[brkn1]

YES! I REALLY do believe Scripture!

Scripture is very clear about how the sins of those saved by Christ are purged:

See (Hebrews 10:10,12,14)

v.10 “By the which will (God’s will, not ours) we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ ONCE (for all).”

v. 12 “But this Man, after He had offered ONE sacrifice for sins FOR EVER, sat down on the right hand of God;”

v.14 “For by ONE offering He hath perfected FOR EVER them that are sanctified.”

The Scripture allows no room for any of the “purging of sin” by the works of others. It is Jesus alone that did all of the purging of His saints by His ONE Redeeming Sacrifice.

 

[PerryJ]

YES! I REALLY do believe Scripture!

Scripture is very clear about how the sins of those saved by Christ are purged:

See (Hebrews 10:10,12,14)

v.10 “By the which will (God’s will, not ours) we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ ONCE (for all).”

v. 12 “But this Man, after He had offered ONE sacrifice for sins FOR EVER, sat down on the right hand of God;”

v.14 “For by ONE offering He hath perfected FOR EVER them that are sanctified.”

The Scripture allows no room for any of the “purging of sin” by the works of others. It is Jesus alone that did all of the purging of His saints by His ONE Redeeming Sacrifice.

Do you believe in a just God?

One man actively commits adultery throughout his life, lives in a fancy house, drives a fancy car and dies at the age of eighty. He truly repents before death and goes to heaven.
One man commits adultery, lose his wife, loses his money and dies at the age of eighty. He truly repents before death and goes to heaven.
One man is pious, donates all of his good to the poor. He truly repents before death and goes to heaven.

Is this a just God to you?

Do you believe one can enter heaven attached to Sin?

All christians believe in original sin and an attachment to sin. Since you are attached to sin how do you enter heaven when nothing unclean can enter heaven? Christ has to mend and clean your soul does he not? If he does how is this different than purgatory? Purgatory is not a set time as God lives outside of time. So how does your purification differ from purgatory?

Please define your statement that the “purging of sin” by the work of others. What others are you referring to? This is not a Catholic belief as it reads here.

How do you believe santification and purgatory are related?

 

[TriuneUnity]

Do you believe in a just God?

One man actively commits adultery throughout his life, lives in a fancy house, drives a fancy car and dies at the age of eighty. He truly repents before death and goes to heaven.
One man commits adultery, lose his wife, loses his money and dies at the age of eighty. He truly repents before death and goes to heaven.
One man is pious, donates all of his good to the poor. He truly repents before death and goes to heaven.

Is this a just God to you?

Yes; because all three of them deserve condemnation for their sins. The former’s sins are not any greater in the eyes of the Lord than the third man. All three will enter heaven solely based on the merits of Christ. All of God’s justice was poured out on Him “so that He may be just and the justifier of the one who believes in Jesus.”

 

[nsper7]

Do you believe in a just God?

One man actively commits adultery throughout his life, lives in a fancy house, drives a fancy car and dies at the age of eighty. He truly repents before death and goes to heaven.
One man commits adultery, lose his wife, loses his money and dies at the age of eighty. He truly repents before death and goes to heaven.
One man is pious, donates all of his good to the poor. He truly repents before death and goes to heaven.

1. Be careful of equating owning a ‘fancy car’ and a ‘fancy house’ to sin. Certainly, adultery is a grave sin, but the issue of wealth is more an issue of Christ’s evangelical counsels (or counsels of perfection: chastity, charity, obedience). Before equating ‘disobeying’ the evangelical counsels with definitive sin, one should remember what the Catholic Encyclopedia states on the issue:

Catholic Encyclopedia:

To sum up: it is possible to be rich, and married, and held in honour by all men, and yet keep the Commandments and to enter heaven. Christ’s advice is, if we would make sure of everlasting life and desire to conform ourselves perfectly to the Divine will, that we should sell our possessions and give the proceeds to others who are in need, that we should live a life of chastity for the Gospel’s sake, and, finally, should not seek honours or commands, but place ourselves under obedience. These are the Evangelical Counsels, and the things which are counselled are not set forward so much as good in themselves, as in the light of means to an end and as the surest and quickest way of obtaining everlasting life.

1. If these men were never Christians when they sinned, but on their deathbed ‘repented’ and were Baptized (possibly by desire), they would each be Saved by the Roman Catholic definition.

Do you believe one can enter heaven attached to Sin?

All christians believe in original sin and an attachment to sin. Since you are attached to sin how do you enter heaven when nothing unclean can enter heaven? Christ has to mend and clean your soul does he not? If he does how is this different than purgatory? Purgatory is not a set time as God lives outside of time. So how does your purification differ from purgatory?

Please define your statement that the “purging of sin” by the work of others. What others are you referring to? This is not a Catholic belief as it reads here.

How do you believe santification and purgatory are related?

I am confused on the matter of argument. Is this as OSAS argument or a Purgatory argument? One could believe in OSAS and also believe in Purgatory.

 

[distracted]

I am confused on the matter of argument. Is this as OSAS argument or a Purgatory argument? One could believe in OSAS and also believe in Purgatory.

i am confused also… Are you Catholic?

I am confused about what you are probably confused about…(?)

 

[distracted]

Yes; because all three of them deserve condemnation for their sins. The former’s sins are not any greater in the eyes of the Lord than the third man. All three will enter heaven solely based on the merits of Christ. All of God’s justice was poured out on Him “so that He may be just and the justifier of the one who believes in Jesus.”

No one knows who is going to Heaven and who is not. If the person only repented to avoid Hell… and not becaus of love of God… well, maybe his destination is questionable… and even if they all go to Heaven, they don’t necessarily all go directly there…without Purg. If one is baptized at death, he will prob go directly to Heaven… Those who sin after baptism will probably go to Purg… that is what the Church teaches… don’t know if there is naything more to that or not.

 

[distracted]

YES! I REALLY do believe Scripture!

i have read a lot of your posts and i don’t believe you do because you reject scirptures that clearly indicate Purgatory and other Catholic doctrines…

It is the same old same old… You (and others) keep bringing up what CHRIST did to save us… Not waht WE must do… It’s getting old…

Until you get to that point - what we must do… (the point of this thread/others), i feel like… well, like this… :banghead:

The Scripture allows no room for any of the “purging of sin” by the works of others.

What? by the works of others?? What are you talking about???

It is Jesus alone that did all of the purging of His saints by His ONE Redeeming Sacrifice.

Again… for the 100th time…

No one is disuputing this… Or at least no Poster that i know of…

 

[GeorgiaPeach]

"brkn1:

The Scripture allows no room for any of the “purging of sin” by the works of others.

What? by the works of others?? What are you talking about???

I think brkn1 is talking about prayers of the living for those who have passed on (presumably in purgatory).

 

[TriuneUnity]

No one knows who is going to Heaven and who is not. If the person only repented to avoid Hell… and not becaus of love of God… well, maybe his destination is questionable… and even if they all go to Heaven, they don’t necessarily all go directly there…without Purg. If one is baptized at death, he will prob go directly to Heaven… Those who sin after baptism will probably go to Purg… that is what the Church teaches… don’t know if there is naything more to that or not.

Well, yes, that is a given that we cannot tell outwardly why the person is repenting or whether it is true faith. I was taking Perry’s hypothetical to mean that the repentance of the former two is genuine faith.

Purgatory is not necessary; Christ has suffered for us and that suffering was perfect satisfaction for all sins.

 

[distracted]

Well, yes, that is a given that we cannot tell outwardly why the person is repenting or whether it is true faith. I was taking Perry’s hypothetical to mean that the repentance of the former two is genuine faith.

Purgatory is not necessary; Christ has suffered for us and that suffering was perfect satisfaction for all sins.

you will think otherwise when you are there… and have more to expiate becasue you didn’t start expiating here on Earth…

Christ’s suffering was/is perfect. But that means absolutely NOTHING if it is not ***applied!!! ***

Why do i feel like a broken record?

(remember them??)

 

[TriuneUnity]

you will think otherwise when you are there… and have more sins to expiate becasue you didn’t start expiating here on Earth…

I cannot expiate them. Hence, why it was necessary for Christ to do it for me.

Christ’s suffering was/is perfect. But that means absolutely NOTHING if it is not applied!!!

And if it is applied, purgatory is not necessary.

Why do i feel like a broken record (remember them??)

Unfortunately.

 

[SIA]

Those Protestants who believe in sola fide and/or sola scirptura: How do you explain these scriptures:

St. Mark 10:17: [A man asked Jesus:] What must i do to inherit eternal life?" Jesus answered him… “You know the Commandments…[He lists them]”. He… said… “Teacher, all of these i have observed from my youth.” Jesus… said to him, “You are lacking in one thing. Go, sell what you have, and give to [the] poor and you will have treasure in Heaven; then come, follow Me.”

2 Thessalonians 1:7: … Jesus from Heaven with his mighty angels, in blazing fire, infliciting punishment on those who do not acknowldege God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. These will pay the penalty of eternal ruin, separated from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his power…

I know many Catholics and Protestants, both, who do not obey ALL of what the gospels say… (myself included)

Not trying to be a smart – but… i can’t help but think:

We had all better HOPE with all our hearts that there not only IS a Purgatory but that we make it there.

(Of course, we Catholics know Purgatory exists [St. Matthew 18:23, 1 Cor 3:13, Rev 21:27, etc…])

So many of you beat the same Scriptures over and over to try and prove much of what Protestants believe to be wrong. Real ALL of Scripture, not just picks and choices. How about reading Paul’s letter to the Romans for starters. Read Ephesians as well. Our faith saves us, we could never do anything to be clean in front of God.

 

[SIA]

Purgatory is not real.

 

[Robbinson]

So many of you beat the same Scriptures over and over to try and prove much of what Protestants believe to be wrong. Real ALL of Scripture, not just picks and choices. How about reading Paul’s letter to the Romans for starters. Read Ephesians as well. Our faith saves us, we could never do anything to be clean in front of God.

Yes - our faith saves us indeed, but not “alone”. We need faith and we must follow Christ’s commandments. Faith alone is not sufficient - nor is works alone (works without faith is dead and faith without works is dead (James)). That is the key - we need faith **and **works. That is why we need faith and baptism (a sacrament of grace). Baptism without faith is worthless and faith without Baptism is not sufficient (Jesus told us we must be reborn with water). I didn’t get this when I first came to faith (and still am a Protestant since not part of the Catholic church)- but scripture is clear on this. The concept that we are saved by faith alone is, I fear, a terrible error is scriptural interpretation. Jesus warned that many who called upon him and even cast out demons in his name were not his. Why? because they did not follow his commandments - feed the poor, take care of the sick, etc. In other words - faith alone is not sufficient.

Blessings.

Brian

 

[SIA]

Yes - our faith saves us indeed, but not “alone”. We need faith and we must follow Christ’s commandments. Faith alone is not sufficient - nor is works alone (works without faith is dead and faith without works is dead (James)). That is the key - we need faith **and **works. That is why we need faith and baptism (a sacrament of grace). Baptism without faith is worthless and faith without Baptism is not sufficient (Jesus told us we must be reborn with water). I didn’t get this when I first came to faith (and still am a Protestant since not part of the Catholic church)- but scripture is clear on this. The concept that we are saved by faith alone is, I fear, a terrible error is scriptural interpretation. Jesus warned that many who called upon him and even cast out demons in his name were not his. Why? because they did not follow his commandments - feed the poor, take care of the sick, etc. In other words - faith alone is not sufficient.

Blessings.

Brian

Not true. Does Paul say that we are saved by faith plus works? James says that faith without works is dead. Does James say that our works are our salvation? Not at all. If what you say is true, Jesus didn’t make a perfect sacrifice. You wouldn’t be able to call your mass a perfect sacrifice. Even Mary needed a Savior. She said so.

 

[Robbinson]

Not true. Does Paul say that we are saved by faith plus works? James says that faith without works is dead. Does James say that our works are our salvation? Not at all. If what you say is true, Jesus didn’t make a perfect sacrifice. You wouldn’t be able to call your mass a perfect sacrifice. Even Mary needed a Savior. She said so.

Mary needed a saviour and was saved through Christ’s work in her at the immaculate conception.

As to works - Christ was clear that we need to follow his commandments and those who do not are not his. If you love me, follow my commandments (Christ’s words). That is what the beatitudes is all about. Paul also alludes to this when he talks about love being critical - that without love he is nothing. What is love? Christ and our doing Christ’s will (following His commandments - once again, the beattitudes). We can’t say we have faith and then not do works (not follow Christ’s commandments). The concept of eternal security is, sadly, probably responsible for more pain in the after life then anything the enemy could do to us.

Its not that Christ’s sacrafice isn’t critical - we are nothing without it - but it doesn’t end there. So yes, without faith we are lost (irrespective of works because our works, without imputation of Christ’s righteousness, are like filthy rags), but if we rely on faith alone, we are lost. But if we have faith, and the imputed righteousness of Christ, then our works and love of Christ through the following of his commandments will save us. That is the gospel and that is the truth that will set us free.

Yours in Christ.

Brian

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

One thing about these types of threads and the CAF I notice is now many very zealous orthodox Catholics seem to build their zeal and fire from the thought of hell. So little is focused on Christ’s grace and the jusification we receive through the blood of the cross? Works are constantly mentioned to the deteriment of the cross. I think it is human nature to just not want to accept the cross as once and for all, wiping away one’s sins, just not enough, so I’ll add my works to the cross. But God’s nature is not human nature. Why are so many hardcore Catholics so intent on proving how many people are going to hell and how many works everyone is lacking. When one person told Triune Unity words to the effect, “you just wait till you die, you’ll wish you had purgatory!!” I was thinking, “how audacious? Have you been there? How do you know Triune needs it? Pretty presumptuous!” It sounds arrogant and pharisaic to constantly point out the shortcomings of others, judge everyone on their following the rules and code of cannon law, and then prescribe purgatory for someone on an online forum we scarcely know? Help Lord!