Protestants: Do you REALLY believe Scripture??

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Yes; because all three of them deserve condemnation for their sins. The former’s sins are not any greater in the eyes of the Lord than the third man. All three will enter heaven solely based on the merits of Christ. All of God’s justice was poured out on Him “so that He may be just and the justifier of the one who believes in Jesus.”
All three do deserve condemnation of there sin and all three will will enter heaven based upon the merits of Christ; however, as John points out there are differences in sin.

John 5 16:17 He that knoweth his brother to sin a sin which is not to death, let him ask, and life shall be given to him, who sinneth not to death. There is a sin unto death: for that I say not that any man ask.
 
  1. Be careful of equating owning a ‘fancy car’ and a ‘fancy house’ to sin. Certainly, adultery is a grave sin, but the issue of wealth is more an issue of Christ’s evangelical counsels (or counsels of perfection: chastity, charity, obedience). Before equating ‘disobeying’ the evangelical counsels with definitive sin, one should remember what the Catholic Encyclopedia states on the issue:
  2. If these men were never Christians when they sinned, but on their deathbed ‘repented’ and were Baptized (possibly by desire), they would each be Saved by the Roman Catholic definition.
I am confused on the matter of argument. Is this as OSAS argument or a Purgatory argument? One could believe in OSAS and also believe in Purgatory.
In part one I am not equating Sin to wealth. I am comparing temporal punishments with actions on a very simplified level. Justice on this earth is not always equal. Yet sins are also not equal. The pious man committed sin; however, the other two men potentially committed mortal sins. Yet two men committing the same sin had different temporal lives.

Concerning purgatory I do not believe many Protestants or even Catholics understand this concept. Protestants tend to believe in an instaneous purification just as Catholics can. They normally refer to it as something else such as regeneration. They also tend to refute purgatory with the statement that God’s grace is enough. God’s grace is enough. The use of this statement shows that they do not understand the concept. One still has to be purified prior to entering heaven as the Bible states. Purgatory is not a “vengeance inflicted by God”.

Catechism of the Catholic Church
1031 The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.

1472 To understand this doctrine and practice of the Church, it is necessary to understand that sin has a double consequence. Grave sin deprives us of communion with God and therefore makes us incapable of eternal life, the privation of which is called the “eternal punishment” of sin. On the other hand every sin, even venial, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified either here on earth, or after death in the state called Purgatory. This purification frees one from what is called the “temporal punishment” of sin. These two punishments must not be conceived of as a kind of vengeance inflicted by God from without, but as following from the very nature of sin. A conversion which proceeds from a fervent charity can attain the complete purification of the sinner in such a way that no punishment would remain.
 
All three do deserve condemnation of there sin and all three will will enter heaven based upon the merits of Christ; however, as John points out there are differences in sin.

John 5 16:17 He that knoweth his brother to sin a sin which is not to death, let him ask, and life shall be given to him, who sinneth not to death. There is a sin unto death: for that I say not that any man ask.
The sin that leads to death is any sin that kills faith and causes the Spirit to leave. But this passage refers to those in the faith. Only they can commit a sin that kills faith. For unbelievers, every sin is mortal.
 
The sin that leads to death is any sin that kills faith and causes the Spirit to leave. But this passage refers to those in the faith. Only they can commit a sin that kills faith. For unbelievers, every sin is mortal.
I agree with your comment that any sin kills faith and leads to death.

We do not believe all sins are equal though. For example a mortal sin for us requires one to know that it is a sin and then to actively pursue this sin. We believe this is a rejection of God and as it is an act that repudiates God it separates us from God.

The verse I sited is one of the verses we use to support the concept that all sins are not equal.

Do Lutherans believe in Mortal Sin in the same sense?
 
I agree with your comment that any sin kills faith and leads to death.

We do not believe all sins are equal though. For example a mortal sin for us requires one to know that it is a sin and then to actively pursue this sin. We believe this is a rejection of God and as it is an act that repudiates God it separates us from God.

The verse I sited is one of the verses we use to support the concept that all sins are not equal.

Do Lutherans believe in Mortal Sin in the same sense?
Yes I would say we do. We don’t categorize them into lists of sins which are mortal and venial. Here is a description from the Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod website (which is in agreement with the Synod I belong to, as well):

"In the case of believers, those sins are called mortal that force the Holy Spirit to depart from one’s heart and life–sins that destroy faith. Venial sins are sins which, though they in themselves merit eternal death, are daily forgiven to the believer. Venial sins are perhaps better called “sins of weakness.” They do not drive away the Holy Spirit, and do not extinguish faith.

We have a perfect example in the Bible of an individual who, as a believer, committed mortal sin: King David. When he took Uriah’s wife and committed adultery with her, and then schemed to have Uriah killed, he was actually in a state where he had fallen from faith and had driven out the Holy Spirit. These were no mere sins of weakness on his part, but sins knowingly committed, with great forethought and planning. The only solution to this grave situation was the preaching of God’s Law, which worked mightily in his life to move him to repentance and restoration to faith and God’s saving grace.

In unbelievers, all sin is without any distinction; they are always dominant, even though individual sins may not turn into actual actions. All unbelievers are dead in trespasses and sin, and Satan is the ruling power in them (Eph. 2:1-3; Col . 1:13; Acts 26:18).

The state of grace in which sin no longer rules over us is found only in believers (Romans 6:14). When in the lives of believers the struggle of the spirit against the flesh has ceased and the sins have again become dominant, then these believers have fallen from faith. Hence the admonition, “Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body” (Rom. 6:12).

It is usually the case that faithful Christians are the ones most troubled by their sin, as well it should be, but they begin to wonder, “Have I fallen so far that God’s grace can not reach me?” In that case, of course, the answer is, “No.”

And it is also the case that those caught up in a sinful lifestyle that is driving them further and further away from the kingdom may not recognize their sin. To those people, God’s word of Law must be clearly proclaimed so that, like David, they are turned from their sin and back to the mercy of God, given us through our Lord Jesus Christ, whose blood cleanses us from all sin."
 
One thing about these types of threads and the CAF I notice is now many very zealous orthodox Catholics seem to build their zeal and fire from the thought of hell. So little is focused on Christ’s grace and the jusification we receive through the blood of the cross? Works are constantly mentioned to the deteriment of the cross. I think it is human nature to just not want to accept the cross as once and for all, wiping away one’s sins, just not enough, so I’ll add my works to the cross. But God’s nature is not human nature. Why are so many hardcore Catholics so intent on proving how many people are going to hell and how many works everyone is lacking. When one person told Triune Unity words to the effect, “you just wait till you die, you’ll wish you had purgatory!!” I was thinking, “how audacious? Have you been there? How do you know Triune needs it? Pretty presumptuous!” It sounds arrogant and pharisaic to constantly point out the shortcomings of others, judge everyone on their following the rules and code of cannon law, and then prescribe purgatory for someone on an online forum we scarcely know? Help Lord!
Absolutely. It’s a sad thing when a person’s faith is so weak in Christ’s saving work that they turn to trying to win it for themselves. I’ve been there and I’m not going back. Not for anything. Jesus already saved me. Amen!
 
Does the Bible tell us that or does the Catholic church?
SIA - The Bible merely tells us that Mary called Christ her Saviour - and he was. The Bible doesn’t use the word Trinity, but the doctrine is derived through interpretation. The Bible doesn’t use the word rapture - but the concept is derived through interpretation. The Bible doesn’t tell us to celebrate Christmas or Easter - yet we do through tradition (dont’ you celebrate these events)?

Don’t you think it is possible (within God’s sovereignty) to have made Mary sinless at birth? (that is a rhetorical question - of course you do - God can do anything). Did he “have to” make her sinless - no - God could do anything and could have had Jesus born of a prostitute. Is it “fitting” that God would have caused Christ to be born of a sinless woman - absolutely - by analogy to the Ark of the Covenant (which was so pure you would die if you touched it) which held the law (10 commandments), the staff of aaron (symbolizing the priesthood) and manna from heaven (the bread of life), just as Mary, the new Ark of the Covenant, sinless and pure, held Jesus (the word/law in the flesh), the high priest in the order of Melchezedek and the bread of eternal life!

Does the Bible say that Mary was not sinless - no.

I’m sorry you left the Church - ironically, I’m crossing (God willing) the Tiber in the other direction and I can’t wait to get there (though it will take some time, I know).

Blessings,

Brian
 
So many of you beat the same Scriptures over and over to try and prove much of what Protestants believe to be wrong. Real ALL of Scripture, not just picks and choices. How about reading Paul’s letter to the Romans for starters. Read Ephesians as well. Our faith saves us, we could never do anything to be clean in front of God.
So many of you beat the same Scriptures over and over to try and prove much of what Catholics believe to be wrong. Read ALL of the Holy Scriptures, not just picks and choices. How about reading Paul’s letter to the Romans for starters, read Ephesians as well, then follow that up with James. Our faith does indeed saves us, but only if it is proven by our spiritual and corporal works as deigned necessary by Jesus Christ Himself. We can be less than clean, though its hardly possible that we could be pleasing to God if we act so human as to be sinful…even if we have professed our “faith”…and yet failed to prove it by our life and failures to follow the very Words of Christ…God Incarnate.

Peace!!
 
So many of you beat the same Scriptures over and over to try and prove much of what Protestants believe to be wrong. Real ALL of Scripture, not just picks and choices. How about reading Paul’s letter to the Romans for starters. Read Ephesians as well. Our faith saves us, we could never do anything to be clean in front of God.
you are telling Catholics to read ALL the scirputres??? That’s laughable…

A Catholic who attends daily Mass for 3 yrs will hear the entire Bible… I must have, therefore, heard the Bible about… hmm… maybe 5 times over by now…

by the way, you never said what you thought of the scriptures i brought up…

but i know why… you have no refutation for their obvious menaing…
 
Purgatory is not real.
losing God is not real and that’s what hapens when people sin… So God gives us Purgatory to … well, become like a child again… as he tells us we must…
 
didn’t get this when I first came to faith (and still am a Protestant since not part of the Catholic church)- but scripture is clear on this.
Brian
I am so thankful to have on this forums someone who is not yet Catholic but admits that in Scripture (forget the Church per se but in Scriputre), there is no OSAS (at least i believe that is what you are saying)…

I don’t understand how someone can read the Bible and come up with osas… I’m sorry to sound rude but if somone says he believes in osas, i automatically know he does not know the Bible… he may know bits and peieces thereof, but the bible is not something one should break apart… take out of context, etc…
 
Purgatory is not real.
guess you’ll find out when you get there… :eek: (assuming you do?? :eek: ) Jesus said the wy to eternal life is narrow & few find it…

Catholicism is very narrow… so narrow very few find it because they don’t wnat to be that “narrow”… They don’t wnt to belong to an unpopular, persecuted Chruch (etc)…
 
Purgatory is not real.
If Purgatory is not real how does one get to Heaven? If you are a Protestant you must believe in some sort of depravity concept. Obviously nothing unclean can get into heaven. So how do you get in? The answer that God’s Grace is enough is not an answer. It doesn’t tell you how you actually get in. We all agree that God’s grace is enough for us to be saved. How are you purified to get into Heaven. Here is the Protestant dilema when they do not follow scripture and make up feel good ideas. They have to reject scripture and the Catholic Church; but, then they do not have a solution. If one is unclean and one has to be clean to enter heaven how does one get in?
 
Not true. Does Paul say that we are saved by faith plus works? James says that faith without works is dead. Does James say that our works are our salvation? Not at all. If what you say is true, Jesus didn’t make a perfect sacrifice. You wouldn’t be able to call your mass a perfect sacrifice. Even Mary needed a Savior. She said so.
this doesn’t make a lot of sense…

you say no osas (James) then you say yes to osas… (your opinion)… Two opposing “facts”/opinions cannot both be true…
 
this doesn’t make a lot of sense…

you say no osas (James) then you say yes to osas… (your opinion)… Two opposing “facts”/opinions cannot both be true…
😃 You’re forgetting about those who “cling to BK theology”…😃
 
If Purgatory is not real how does one get to Heaven? If you are a Protestant you must believe in some sort of depravity concept. Obviously nothing unclean can get into heaven. So how do you get in? The answer that God’s Grace is enough is not an answer. It doesn’t tell you how you actually get in. We all agree that God’s grace is enough for us to be saved. How are you purified to get into Heaven. Here is the Protestant dilema when they do not follow scripture and make up feel good ideas. They have to reject scripture and the Catholic Church; but, then they do not have a solution. If one is unclean and one has to be clean to enter heaven how does one get in?
they just pronounce themselves clean and voie la…

It is so!! 😃
 
they just pronounce themselves clean and voie la…

It is so!! 😃
Thats it I am switching back! I am tired of having to do good works, follow the Pope etc. I am switching back! This Catholic things is just too hard! 😃
 
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