Protestants: Do you REALLY believe Scripture??

[distracted]

I think you are misreading the intent of the story. It seems Jesus is showing the Rich Young Ruler that it is impossible to ‘inherit eternal life’ through good works. After all, on the Sermon on the Mount, Jesus had shown how to lust in one’s heart is the same as adultery and to curse one’s brother is the same as murder. Using that view (and verses such as Romans 3:10), it is clear the RYR could not have kept the Commandments since his youth in the perfect (good…only God is good, or perfect) way that God requires. Jesus showed the RYR how to be perfect and thus, through perfection, inherit eternal life.

In fact, Jesus Himself gives us the reason one should obey the Commandments (John 14:15). If one is keeping the Commandments simply to avoid Hell, where is the love in that (except self-love, or self-preservation)?

this makes no sense. Jesus said what he said and i am going to believe him - not your interpretation of what you think he said…

Jesus said (St. Mark 10:17) to obey the commandments if you want to enter eternal life. Then, when the man told him he had done that… Jesus said to give up everything and “come, follow me”… in order to be perfefct. “Be perfect as your Father in Heaven is perfect”.

How you can interpret that in any way but the obvious way is beyond me…

 

[distracted]

Amen, nsper. Very well said.

if it is so well said, why is someone with an IQ of 140 thinks its nonsense??

(won’t say whom…)

 

[distracted]

First post here…

So just how good at keeping the commandments must you be to get into heaven?

you have to keep all of them… and according to Mk 10 17 and others, you have to also forsake everything and follow Christ…

maybe that’s why, asthe saints tell us, not many make it directly into Heaven when they die… and many, many people go to Hell… (of course, ONE is too many… )

 

[SIA]

You do not answer the question. Protestant tend to believe in Purgatory. Most do not know what the defintion of purgatory is. They have heard false truths about its theology. From the defintion posted they are very much the same. Tell me what you believe Catholic’s think purgatory is? Perhaps I can clarify.

Have you taken a survey to concude that Protestants don’t know the definition of Purgatory? This is truly getting ridiculous.

 

[ufamtobie]

***In the interests of full disclosure, I’m a Protestant leaning towards Catholicism, so I don’t disagree with your implied premise (that faith alone is not sufficient for salvation). Nevertheless, I’ll try to address your question re: a Protestant interpretation of those verses (one possible interpretation): See bold italized responses ***

Reply: I agree with you - though Protestants for the most part reject the concept of purgatory

Oh don’t worry all protestants will believe in purgatory once they are there. The sad thing about it is that they stay the longest in purgatory

Ufamtobie

 

[PerryJ]

Have you taken a survey to concude that Protestants don’t know the definition of Purgatory? This is truly getting ridiculous.

Since I was Protestant for 35 years I think I would know as I know a great many Protestants. I was also in several Protestant Churches and know what they have been trained in. Also my small faith community has many ex-Protestants in the group. They agree with me.

Is this your response from before when you would not answer my questions concerning purgatory?

I hope that someday you will let go of your hatred.

 

[adstrinity]

Since I was Protestant for 35 years I think I would know as I know a great many Protestants. I was also in several Protestant Churches and know what they have been trained in. Also my small faith community has many ex-Protestants in the group. They agree with me.

What does this have to do with the Protestants here? Maybe a thread should be started to see if the Protestants here, on 8.29.08 know the definition of Purgatory.

 

[PerryJ]

What does this have to do with the Protestants here? Maybe a thread should be started to see if the Protestants here, on 8.29.08 know the definition of Purgatory.

In my original post I was referring Protestants in general not the ones of this forum.

How would you do a survey? They may think they know what Purgatory is; but, truly don’t. The myth that Purgatory is a time and a place has been around for so long. I believe Catholics face the myth of Catholcism more than the truth. Again this is a general statement. Perhaps it doesn’t pertian to this forum.

 

[TriuneUnity]

In my original post I was referring Protestants in general not the ones of this forum.

How would you do a survey? They may think they know what Purgatory is; but, truly don’t. The myth that Purgatory is a time and a place has been around for so long. I believe Catholics face the myth of Catholcism more than the truth. Again this is a general statement. Perhaps it doesn’t pertian to this forum.

Don’t you think Catholic abuse of this is the reason Protestants misunderstand the Catholic doctrine? When sellers of indulgences, and the “stairs Christ climbed to his crucifixion” grant 1,000,000 years time off in purgatory, it lends to the notion that purgatory is time and space! The truth is, the Catholic doctrine has shifted emphasis and meaning so many times it’s hard to keep track. The arguments of modern apologists for the existence of purgatory bear no resemblance to the way it was depicted in the Middle Ages.

 

[PerryJ]

Don’t you think Catholic abuse of this is the reason Protestants misunderstand the Catholic doctrine? When sellers of indulgences, and the “stairs Christ climbed to his crucifixion” grant 1,000,000 years time off in purgatory, it lends to the notion that purgatory is time and space! The truth is, the Catholic doctrine has shifted emphasis and meaning so many times it’s hard to keep track. The arguments of modern apologists for the existence of purgatory bear no resemblance to the way it was depicted in the Middle Ages.

Interesting. Indulgences are also greatly misunderstood. No doubt indulgences have been abused; however, I do not know of any incidents of them being sold for personal gain. (Althought it probably happened somewhere.) Most were sold for building etc. Some even to give money to the poor. Obviously this was an area that the Church finally cleaned up by not allowing them to be sold any longer. People within the Church have failed and this one of the areas. Not much I can say other than it is my Church and I accept our failures and hopefully we learned from it.

 

[TriuneUnity]

Interesting. Indulgences are also greatly misunderstood. No doubt indulgences have been abused; however, I do not know of any incidents of them being sold for personal gain. (Althought it probably happened somewhere.) Most were sold for building etc. Some even to give money to the poor. Obviously this was an area that the Church finally cleaned up by not allowing them to be sold any longer. People within the Church have failed and this one of the areas. Not much I can say other than it is my Church and I accept our failures and hopefully we learned from it.

Well, it’s not to harp on the theology behind indulgences, per se. It’s more addressing that the Catholic church is somewhat responsible for the misunderstanding of their theology when it comes to purgatory.

 

[PerryJ]

Well, it’s not to harp on the theology behind indulgences, per se. It’s more addressing that the Catholic church is somewhat responsible for the misunderstanding of their theology when it comes to purgatory.

Agreed

 

[distracted]

Nicely stated (I admit I always get a laugh when I hear they’re not the ten suggestions). However, we must also understand grace, atonement, forgiveness, and confession. At the same token that doesn’t mean we may abuse these things.

When we are quickened by the Holy Spirit we will naturally strive unto holiness. This is the work of God in us, both driving us to will and to do. We may slip – but if we’re living in sin then it’s a pretty good bet we’re not walking in the Spirit (except maybe the spirit of perdition). I’m sure you would agree?

i would agree for the most part but you seem to be saying that if we sin… it either means that we weren’t really a Chrhistian or that… What? It is no big deal because we are saved anyway??? OSAS???

If that is waht you are saying, i do not agree… Sin deforms our souls… and that deformation must be reformed (purified) before we cn get into Heaven. Jesus said we must become like little children… Little children are trusting and innocent… The younger they are, obviously, the more innocent they are… So maybe, now that i think about it… we should strive to become babies again…

 

[sola_scriptura]

i would agree for the most part but you seem to be saying that if we sin… it either means that we weren’t really a Chrhistian or that… What? It is no big deal because we are saved anyway??? OSAS???

No not at all. I am saying that if one does not turn from sin with their heart and shudder at the thought of sin then they have not been transformed by the Spirit, or reborn in Christ.

We will continue to sin. For instance we will certainly continue to live with the infirmities of our flesh. An alcoholic may turn to Christ, and want more than anything to defeat the demon of addiction within him. Does that mean it will happen over night? Of course not. Does that mean Jesus loves him or her any less? Of course not.

It is the desire or intention that changes in the first instance. This is repentance. We are justified in God’s sight by merely admitting to Him that we are too weak to overcome our deficiencies without Him. We need Him, we’re sorry for our sin, and then ask Him to save us.

It is a rare occurrence for a person to profess faith, seek redemption, and not sincerely mean it. Why would anyone do such a thing?

If that is waht you are saying, i do not agree… Sin deforms our souls… and that deformation must be reformed (purified) before we cn get into Heaven. Jesus said we must become like little children… Little children are trusting and innocent… The younger they are, obviously, the more innocent they are… So maybe, now that i think about it… we should strive to become babies again…

Indeed Christ did say this – however, He surely wasn’t revealing some sort of purgatory to make this happen? I just don’t find support for this idea anywhere …

 

[SIA]

No not at all. I am saying that if one does not turn from sin with their heart and shudder at the thought of sin then they have not been transformed by the Spirit, or reborn in Christ.

We will continue to sin. For instance we will certainly continue to live with the infirmities of our flesh. An alcoholic may turn to Christ, and want more than anything to defeat the demon of addiction within him. Does that mean it will happen over night? Of course not. Does that mean Jesus loves him or her any less? Of course not.

It is the desire or intention that changes in the first instance. This is repentance. We are justified in God’s sight by merely admitting to Him that we are too weak to overcome our deficiencies without Him. We need Him, we’re sorry for our sin, and then ask Him to save us.

It is a rare occurrence for a person to profess faith, seek redemption, and not sincerely mean it. Why would anyone do such a thing?

Indeed Christ did say this – however, He surely wasn’t revealing some sort of purgatory to make this happen? I just don’t find support for this idea anywhere …

That’s because it truly isn’t there. It was created in the 5th century. The Early Church fathers didn’t teach it because of course it wasn’t invented yet.

 

[sola_scriptura]

That’s because it truly isn’t there. It was created in the 5th century. The Early Church fathers didn’t teach it because of course it wasn’t invented yet.

 

[distracted]

Indeed Christ did say this – however, He surely wasn’t revealing some sort of purgatory to make this happen? I just don’t find support for this idea anywhere …

there is a lot of sciptural support for it (St. Matthew 18:23, St. Mt 12:32, etc.)

Also, you are already in Purgatory if:

you are persecuted for standing up for Christ

you choose to do the right thing even when it is painful and you don’t wnat to do it…

you love Jesus but have to live around people who don’t

you have christian love in your heart for people who don’t accept it from you…

you want to go to Heaven and be with Jesus right now… but know there is more good you can do on Earth…

(etc, etc…)

 

[onenow1]

Quote=OneNow1 Not so!!!

You, therefore, must be perfect, as your Heavenly Father is perfect."
Matthew 5:48​

It stands to reason that since GOD is perfect, then Heaven has to be a perfect place, and nothing imperfect can enter (Revelation 21:27). GOD will not join Himself to anything defiled. If a person dies with sins not sufficient for hell (the sin unto death, 1John 5:16-17), and has lesser sins to prevent entry into Heaven, then there has to be a third place in which to atone for them. This would be a temporary place, as stated in Matthew 5:25-26, “You shall not come out until you have paid the last penny”.
Come out of where?

---

After Adam’s sin, the gates of Heaven were closed, and no one was allowed to enter (John 3:13) until Jesus Christ redeemed the human race and opened the gates once again. Where were the spirits of Moses and Elijah, who appeared and spoke with Jesus at the transfiguration (Matthew 17:3)? They could not have been in Heaven since it was closed, and they would have been lost had they been in hell. They had to have been in a third place. If there was a third place then, why not a third place now?

What about Lazarus? He was already dead four days (John 11:17) when Jesus arrived at his tomb. Where was his soul during those four days? It could not be heaven or hell for the same reasons as for Moses and Elijah.
His soul had to have been in a third place

John 20:21-23 ‘Peace be with you. A the father has sent me so I am sending you.’ After saying this he breathed on them and said: Receive the Holy Spirit. if you forgive anyones sins they are forgiven; if you retain anyones sins they are retained.

And lets not forget: Matt. 16: 18 So I now say to you you are Peter and on this rock I will build my CHURCH ! Folks it a comes down to a teaching church, we have many to chose from. There are ony two historically speaking that have apostolic succession the Catholic and Orthodox.

The Catholic Church was torn apart at the reformation, because of the disobediance of a man named Martin luther he broke his vows of obedience to the Church of Christ. Sounds like apostacy to me.

I do not mean to be disparging here, I realize present day Christianity is a far removed from the reformation, and most Christians today do there best to follow Jesus Christ, and should be applauded. My plea is this, come back to the original Church of Christ it certainly could still use a lot of reforming, in many ways I pray that this happens and maybe finaly we can all dance to the same tune !

Hope this helps ?
Peace, Onenow1

 

[distracted]

What about Lazarus? He was already dead four days (John 11:17) when Jesus arrived at his tomb. Where was his soul during those four days? It could not be heaven or hell for the same reasons as for Moses and Elijah.
His soul had to have been in a third place

well, yeah, but why doesn’t the Bible just call that place Purgatory and then we messed up humans on Earth wouldn’t all be so confused and arguing with each other over this issue?? I think this proves that God wants us to argue, don’t you? (Just kidding, of course… )

The Catholic Church was torn apart at the reformation, because of the disobediance of a man named Martin luther he broke his vows of obedience to the Church of Christ. Sounds like apostacy to me.

i just read this book on Hitler… What an eye-opener in many ways… I got to thinking about just how true it is that we need Christ’s true Church. Hitler never went to Church, that anyone knows of… He hated Christianity… I know that in all his evil-doing, he must have had 2nd thoughts about what God thought… I know he did because the book mentions things like that… but every time, he went against the Holy Spirit (my take…)… We all do this kind of thing… and yet the Church has ways of helping people stay on the right track… Once one leaves the Church that Christ founded, he may go to some other church that doesn’t have all that His has… and then when he gets dissatsfied with that one, he leaves that one… and… well, it just is that much easier to just finally say, “religion doesn’t matter…” and then the person is on the road to Hell… or at least a long stay in Purgatory… which is temporary Hell…

 

[ufamtobie]

So then, that means purgatory specifically? I believe that your magisterium is wrong on Scripture interpretation, dead wrong.

Sia,

About purgatory, EVENTUALLY you will come to believe IT wether it be in this life, but DEFINITELY in the next LIFE: you will not only come to believe in it but you will also FEEL IT! Thats if you go there. thumbsup:

Ufamtobie