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Protestants: Doesn't it bother you that your religion is of man-made origin?
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distracted
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:clapping: :clapping:
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KenEOTE
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Are you Satan? Because you are rejoicing at this.
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SORROWS
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Distracted is applauding because what was quoted by I BELIEVE is true.
To call someone Satan is extremely offensive.:tsktsk:
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KenEOTE
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Sorrow it was a jest, or joke. Also I didn’t call him Satan I asked if he was. I knew why he was clapping. It was just to easy I couldn’t let it pass.
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Rightlydivide
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Truthstalker
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You might as well have posted
What a stupid thread. Read some history.
Is insulting people supposed to bring them to Catholicism? It seems that the Catholics are absolutely clueless as to why the Protestants find the OP and the attitudes expressed on this thread offensive. My suspicion is that they are so blinded by their spiritual pride, which comes across loud and clear, that they cannot see it.
Welcome to my ignore list, Distracted.
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I_Believe
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Well then, Mathew 16:18-19. That is the one that really should pertain to the issue raised in the OP.
To have a church, we must have a religion. Now, these words of Christ reveal a couple of things. Most importantly, unity. His words are very instructive. He said church, not churches. Dismissing this as a favorite “catholic argument” (and I know you didn’t) does not change the fact that these are the words of Christ himself. Christ bestowed on Peter a great commission.
It wasn’t long after 33 AD until all Christians were called Catholics. Now Chist’s Church, and Her religion, was formed over centuries. The Catholic Church built the Faith in Christ we all have.
Catholicism isn’t fun. But it can lead one to eternal life. So how can one follow the lead of any man who rejects the Church that is responsible for his Faith in Christ ?
All the reasons givien for a break from the Roman Catholic Church are absurd. For example, corrupt clergy. Even a corrupt Pope can’t justify the Papacy itself to be questioned. The Church is Christ’s Will. The gates of hell can’t touch Her.
Why would one set His Will of unity aside and have faith that Salvation can be had despite it ?
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I_Believe
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You bring up a good point. Prudence is a Virtue as is Charity. But this is a very serious issue.
Protestants should consider what enables the issue in the first place. There is no division in unity.
Does any Protestant here deny Christ wills unity in His Name ?
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KenEOTE
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Actually it was over 70 years… That is pretty long. Most of the original Apostles if not all were dead by that point.
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KenEOTE
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This is so true. This is why they say absolute power corrupts absolutely. This is why a lot of Protestants have issue with the doctrine of infallibility.we humans don’t naturally know what is God’s providence… Most of the time, We do our own thing and then call it God’s will …
The fear is who is the Pope then accountable too? Who can question him on matters of the church? When a person who merely questions the Pope or his teachings, Catholics jump on him or her and calls him a heretic. It’s as if there can be no dialogue on this issue with out personal attacks on the one asking the questions.
I think God will maintain his church even with a corrupt leader in place.
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Truthstalker
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How conveniently Catholics forget that Luther, Zwingli, Calvin et al attempted reform from within the Catholic Church and were excommunicated, threatened with death, saw their friends burned, etc. The papacy was solely interested in political power and kleptocracy. Corrupt teaching, such as on indulgences, were used by the shepherds to rape the sheep. From confession to celibacy, church doctrine has been used to extend and enforce church rule in a desire that every human being, living or dead, be under the rule of the pope.
The unity you desire is that of the grave. Christ’s prayer in John 17 is fully capable of being answered by God the Father on His own terms, as opposed to human terms. The unity you desire is on human terms. Abraham sought to have an heir on human terms, and so Ishmael came into being, and his descendents still are a problem today. The child of promise, Isaac, came at God’s time and in His power. There is a unity in the universal church that is spiritual as opposed to the carnal unity in the “Catholic” church that is Catholic in name only, as so many, many Christians are outside it, whether Protestant or Orthodox.
You invite us back to burn us at the stake. No interest in your sham unity on my part. Is there charity in the Catholic church? Is there the fruit of the Spirit or the impartation of grace in its sacraments? You will find little evidence of it on this thread or many others on CAF, where Catholics come to jeer and spit at Protestants and attempt to rub their alleged spiritual superiority in. Better to remain Protestant and have some humility than to become Catholic and forfeit any semblance of faith or grace.
I find myself increasingly angry at such claims, such arrogance, such ignorance on the part of many Catholics. The attitude seems to be endemic to the Catholic posters, especially on the part of the converts who pat themselves on the back for getting it right as opposed to all those hardened Protestants or those lazy cradle Catholics.
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SIA
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I’m personally glad that someone finally had the God given courage to stand up for Christ and the truth against Rome. The Roman Catholic church is a man made institution which denies the very existence of the Church Christ founded. Thank God for Martin Luther who finally had the guts to stand up for it.
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Gottle_of_Geer
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Which is why some Christians say Catholicism is a lie & a cult & a
deception. That may not be very “respectful” of them; but why should they respect Catholicism, when Catholics behave as though they had a God-given right to trample the dearest convictions of others ? They would only be using the same logic as your argument does. Maybe Protestants are being “obedient to all that which [they] have been taught and received”. If we don’t want our convictions insulted, we can’t afford to insult those of others.It’s implied in the question asked in the title of the thread - & misses the point: being Christian is not dependent on intellectual brilliance, but on God’s grace from first to last.
“Founded by men” - how are they any worse off than Catholicism, or Judaism ?
What were Jesus, or Moses, but men ? Yes, faith tells us that Jesus is also God - that’s exactly the point: we know this only by faith; just as it is faith that tells us that a Jew from Tarsus is an Apostle. And it is by faith that Protestants are able to look beyond what the Reformers were in themselves, to what God was doing through their agency. If faith is left out, then the difference between Jesus, Moses, Paul & the Reformers is non-existent: they are all men & nothing more. But if we can look at Jesus in faith, or Moses, or Paul - then we can look on the Reformers in faith, & see God at work helping His Church through them; just as He did through those others & many like them down to today.So if your argument works, it works too well; if it is valid against Protestantism, it is equally valid against Catholicism.
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Gottle_of_Geer
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Of course it can be questioned - people have no protection against the Pope as it is, & no legal recourse of any kind when wronged by him; & are they not allowed even to complain of wrongs ? This is tyranny, or the word is meaningless.
The words are “…the gates of hell will not prevail against [My Church]” - that is quite a way from a promise that the Church would be completely unscathed.
The Reformers valued content above form, whereas their Catholic opponents valued form as the guarantee of content. The difference leads to different ecclesiologies, both of which have Biblical support.
The man whom the disciples tried to prevent from driving out demons in the Name of Jesus was not part of their group; that’s why they tried to stop him. Jesus did not agree with them.If that can happen, why cannot salvation be had regardless of the Church ? It commits a great wrong in trying to thrust itself between the Saviour & the sinner - to mediate, a door gets out of the way of the people using it; it mediates by not getting in the way, by getting out of the way. The Church OTOH is for ever getting in the way - it has no business to do so, for then it becomes (so far as lies within its power) an obstacle & not a means to salvation. The Church is not Christ: it is in one of its aspects a body of sinful & very defective people; what those people do cannot without further ado be identified as what Christ does, or one ends by approving various moral enormities.
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TriuneUnity
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:clapping: Ecclesia Reformata, Semper Reformanda!
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RobHom
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Gee, and the “reformers” never did or endorsed any activities in kind? Come now…lets not embrace “historical revisionism”, or pitch one sided stories. “Kleptocracy”? You are “reaching” my friend…a long distance…
Shazzzzammmm!! That’s actually a new one!! I’ve never heard that one before!! Can you google it? Please tell us which of the Xian Parody sites you gleaned that tidbit from, OK?
Man you have caught that virus bad!! I’m afraid you’re round the esoteric bend.
That’s your take on that, I guess. You’ll have to forgive me for seeming a tad glib…but your rant is going a little downhill and gaining speed…
Aren’t you “flying in the face of Christ’s own words”? Being just a little “judgmental” maybe. Seems you object to that precise thing that you are doing presently. You are lumping an awful lot of people in one pot and painting with a very broad brush. Actually…you are being rather unfriendly and well…more than just judgmental. How very “Xian” of you.
My friend, what you posted above paints you in my minds eye as being one who’s mind is closed and very narrow. I’m sorry if that offends you…but for me, Catholicism is not about “ego, elitism, arrogance, or holier-than-thou pride”.
I will only say this: IF you knew but one-tenth of what you claim to know about Catholics and the Catholic Church…you would know better than to make statements like you have which are baseless and erroneous at best.
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cathopologist
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Although a generally young bunch of 33,000 odd denominations, Protestants work hard at what they do.
http://cathopologist.com//public_html/wp-content/downloads/Young Protestant.jpg
Its not an easy task convincing 2000 year old established Church members that Protestantism has all the answers.
http://cathopologist.com//public_html/wp-content/downloads/Young Protestant.jpg
Its not an easy task convincing 2000 year old established Church members that Protestantism has all the answers.
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multitude
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I really hope I’m not flaming but…
Funnily enough, it tends to be lowly priests like Luther himself, Hans Kung and perhaps several others who deny that the pope has such infallible authority. Which begs the question. Why? Are they simply concerned about how so much power seems to be given to these men? Or are they simply not getting their political share? In Luther’s case, when he made remarks about how others are damned to hell because they are not reading scripture through his eyes, he seems, whether he was aware of it or not, to want his share or some type of power. Hence, why some people think, perhaps, he was on a big ego trip.
However I’m pretty sure you know the Catholic train of thought by now, that we would go so far as to say God’s terms is the Catholic Church coz Jesus founded it. Of course I know you don’t subscribe to it.
I’m just saying. I know I can be quite prideful sometimes. But check yourself in the mirror. Brilliant tone you start off with, it’ll sure win my heart. I will take you up seriously though.
You do know that you can dig up a ton of dirt on these Protestant reformers right? Like how Luther never cared about anyone else’s interpretation of scripture but his own, “they’re all damned to hell”, how Zwingli destroyed and desecrated altars and statues, etc.
Unsubstantiated. This claim assumes a motive behind the interest in such political power, like you implied, money. If they were indeed trying to get rich, looking out for themselves, then we would see a lot of ppl, cardinals and bishops included, trying to get pope status at all costs to get at this core fountain of wealth. Anarchy. Much like kings of years past constantly being overthrown even by people who seem rich enough already. But even the cardinals and bishops all teach to submit to the pope. Why? If it was all about the power and the resultant money, why should they share it among themselves when somebody can scheme to overthrow the pope and get the biggest share? For the sake of preserving some kind of unity? Which begs another question. Why? So I’m betting collusion amongst themselves where they think of such sustainability reasons to continue being a bunch of money grubbers? The papal office is huge. The assumption of such collusion is a stretch.
Funnily enough, it tends to be lowly priests like Luther himself, Hans Kung and perhaps several others who deny that the pope has such infallible authority. Which begs the question. Why? Are they simply concerned about how so much power seems to be given to these men? Or are they simply not getting their political share? In Luther’s case, when he made remarks about how others are damned to hell because they are not reading scripture through his eyes, he seems, whether he was aware of it or not, to want his share or some type of power. Hence, why some people think, perhaps, he was on a big ego trip.
There’s no fluidity in argument here. Nothing to break down nor discuss. No offense, it’s just not a very good premise, you defined it too loosely.
However I’m pretty sure you know the Catholic train of thought by now, that we would go so far as to say God’s terms is the Catholic Church coz Jesus founded it. Of course I know you don’t subscribe to it.
By the universal church do you mean every church that worships Christ? If so, how is there a unity? No Protestant thinks or worships alike. Do I have to bring up Luther talking about how everybody else is going to hell again? I’ve already mentioned it. I don’t see the unity.
Do you actually know just how relieving it feels to recieve the sacraments of confession, baptism, etc.? Don’t knock it til you’ve tried it. We invite you back coz you really don’t know what you’re missing. What stake? I was a bit scared going back to Mass and confession, but there is no stake.
See above. Check yourself. People who brag of their supposed humility have none.
Y’know, I’d like to apologize on my part, whatever I’ve done, and there is a tone that’s quite bad sometimes. I get caught in the heat of the moment too. But nice generalisation on your part.
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