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sola_scriptura
Guest
God chose us to get His church back on track. You guys were fired, didn’t you get the memo?
Protestants: Doesn't it bother you that your religion is of man-made origin?
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emeraldcoast
Guest
giggle,giggle…God chose us to get His church back on track. You guys were fired, didn’t you get the memo?
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sola_scriptura
Guest
ummm … you missed a step: Christ left His church, you guys messed things up, then God anointed us to clean up the messShlomo lkhoulkhoun,
It bothered me immensely. Therefore, I had no logical choice but to embrace the Church Christ left us. To say that Luther, Henry VIII, Wesley or whomever had to come along and fix what Christ and the Apostles got wrong is the height of arrogance and very scary.
This is obvious because Protestants now run the world. Back when you guys were doing a good job God let you run the world.
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KenEOTE
Guest
**ummm … you missed a step: Christ left His church, you guys messed things up, then God anointed us to clean up the mess
This is obvious because Protestants now run the world. Back when you guys were doing a good job God let you run the world.**
This is an interesting Point. It would make some sense if you look at it from a reformed theology point of View. God was with the Jews for thousands of Years and then said OK Jews you are no longer Israel the Church is Israel. Then after 1500 years God said OK CC you are messing things up you are no longer Israel the Protestants are Israel. Just wait 500 more years or So and God will change his mind again.
Well of course unless you believe he is the same yesterday today and forever. The there are a whole lot of things you are going to have to explain. Yes I just went and opened a can of worms. Its what I do.
This is obvious because Protestants now run the world. Back when you guys were doing a good job God let you run the world.**
This is an interesting Point. It would make some sense if you look at it from a reformed theology point of View. God was with the Jews for thousands of Years and then said OK Jews you are no longer Israel the Church is Israel. Then after 1500 years God said OK CC you are messing things up you are no longer Israel the Protestants are Israel. Just wait 500 more years or So and God will change his mind again.
Well of course unless you believe he is the same yesterday today and forever. The there are a whole lot of things you are going to have to explain. Yes I just went and opened a can of worms. Its what I do.
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sola_scriptura
Guest
It was always the same people who God chose and loved; we’ve just identified ourselves using different labels throughout the ages.
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KenEOTE
Guest
Sola the point is.
The Cathoics say it was a never ending covenant he made to the Church.
So then the protestants came along and say that oen eneded now its a new one through the protestants.
But you have to go back further because the Jews claim they have a never ending covenant with God, that the Catholics and Proitestants say ended with the New Covenant.
Either they are never ending or they aren’t.
Perhaps Gods definition of never ending or eternal is defferent than ours. Or perhaps man has decided to tell God which ones are over, and not paying attention to God for that matter.
The Cathoics say it was a never ending covenant he made to the Church.
So then the protestants came along and say that oen eneded now its a new one through the protestants.
But you have to go back further because the Jews claim they have a never ending covenant with God, that the Catholics and Proitestants say ended with the New Covenant.
Either they are never ending or they aren’t.
Perhaps Gods definition of never ending or eternal is defferent than ours. Or perhaps man has decided to tell God which ones are over, and not paying attention to God for that matter.
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sola_scriptura
Guest
God’s promises to the Jews have not ended, I view replacement theology as wrong (see Romans 11).
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KenEOTE
Guest
Sola I agree with you. Many however cling to replacement theology which in my mind replaces God for a god.
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Jonathan_Cid
Guest
How interesting that the Catholic Church, the true Church, had the gates of hell prevail against her. Jesus lied about that? And He left His Church!? After He said He would be with us all days, even unto the end of the world!? I guess He lied then, too. So why even trust what He says, if He’s a liar? Maybe He’s abandoned Protestants, too?
If the Catholic Church “failed”, then we’re all doomed and all of Christianity comes crashing down. Get over yourselves.
When you can damn well prove our claims are unfounded, then call them so. But you know it ain’t as you say it is. And as always, most of you will probably never actually answer our arguments. You’ll cut, and run. Because that’s what Protestants do - they Protest the Truth.
Protestant thinkers tended to think more along the lines that if you were poor, you deserved it. Catholic thinkers were thinking more along Jesus’ lines - love and care for the poor.
If the Catholic Church “failed”, then we’re all doomed and all of Christianity comes crashing down. Get over yourselves.
When you can damn well prove our claims are unfounded, then call them so. But you know it ain’t as you say it is. And as always, most of you will probably never actually answer our arguments. You’ll cut, and run. Because that’s what Protestants do - they Protest the Truth.
Democracy came from the Greeks. And it was not a pretty concept with the Greeks. The concept that humans had any dignity came from the Catholic Church - along with the hospital system, university system, education for all, and on, and on. “One man, one vote” came from the Supreme Court of the United States. The U.S. was founded on natural law. Unfortunately, that law was also the law of the jungle as we entered the Industrial Revolution, and the principles had to be “Catholicized”. Human compassion and collectivism were just as important as individual rights.
Protestant thinkers tended to think more along the lines that if you were poor, you deserved it. Catholic thinkers were thinking more along Jesus’ lines - love and care for the poor.
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Jonathan_Cid
Guest
Also, please let us know what church yours is, so that we can find your founder and the year your denomination “restored” the “lost”, “forsaken”, Christian faith.
scripturecatholic.com/history.html [Of course, the Orthodox never broke and have maintained the Apostolic authority and Sacraments, dogmas and doctrines]
scripturecatholic.com/history.html [Of course, the Orthodox never broke and have maintained the Apostolic authority and Sacraments, dogmas and doctrines]
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KenEOTE
Guest
I follow Jesus Christ. I do not folow a denomination… They are man made. Isn’t that the point of this thread?
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sola_scriptura
Guest
Funny, I never see Jesus mentioning Rome in such a light in Scripture. In fact the notion that the RCC is “the church” is invented by the Romans themselves, go figure. Now why would the Romans want to do that? Oh yeah, because they were the Romans, controlling the world was their game. Hey, who could blame them, politicians to this day use religion to gain power. It’s human nature I suppose.
what ever are you talking about?
okay …
Still living in past glory huh? Collectivism? You mean communism or socialism. Please
Obviously you’re reading of Protestant faith comes from propaganda – the US is the most charitable nation on earth, and most of that money is Protestant money.
Don’t hate on us just because we run things? It works better this way, as we can see from the history of human progress since the reformation.
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Sean_Boyle
Guest
Too many opinions, not enough substance to your post.
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Hesychios
Guest
Doesn’t it bother you that your church was founded by Cardinal’s Humbert and Frederic in a fit of rage?
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sola_scriptura
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I was merely meeting opinion with opinion — I didn’t see much substance in your previous post either???
Anyways …
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RobHom
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And “argue” is about all they can do…because their argument is “flawed”.
The first part of your statement is erroneous. The United States was “founded on Judeo/Christian principals”… NOT Protestant.
The problem is that many people have very little real knowledge regarding the religious beliefs of the Founding Fathers. Many were not Protestants…not in any real sense. Some of the most influential were “Deists”…and there is a significant difference. Also…most of the motivations, even though religious thoughts were included, was the fact that politically every effort was to prevent the establishment of another country that would be ruled by a “monarchy”…and have classes of gentry. Everything was to be structured in opposition to the English model of the day.
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Spirithound
Guest
Jesus was so inspirational, so holy, such an awesome teacher, that He inspired all of His followers to get everything wrong?
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sola_scriptura
Guest
the fantasy continues. The term Judeo – Christian found its way into our vernacular during WWII, in furtherance of fostering a sense of unity between Catholic, Protestant, and Jewish troops.
The US was colonized by Protestants, Anglicans, Puritans, and Anabaptists (for the most part, though there were a very small number of Catholics and Jews here since pretty close to the beginning, unless you count the Spaniards, who were largely drawn out of the picture). Moreover, even the idea that we were founded on religious values is sort of a fallacy (with the exception of the Puritans of course); but we usually give the Puritans too much credit in our early history. Mostly we were Anglicans (and not fundamental in today’s sense of the word).
Look, I’m politically conservative, but I do not go around pretending our founding fathers were priests and pastors. They were capitalists and great political thinkers in the tradition of men like John Locke. Jefferson used to tear parts of the Bible he didn’t like out … so you can hardly call the man a good Christian.
Was it born again Christians who won the west? No, it was ornery cowboys … who were basically whiskey drinking, whoremongering, gun slinging, murderous heathens.
They were mostly Protestants, but I get your point. Men like Ben Franklin & Thomas J. as I said were really just Christian in name only. Franklin had more girlfriends as an old man that I’ve had in my life. I’m a stick in the mud compared to him.
However, most of the rest were actually very Protestant.
In sum it is accurate to say the US (as we know it) was founded by Protestants, but not necessarily by Protestant principals (although our moral view was certainly shaped by Protestantism, not Catholicism, to say different is revisionist history at its worse).
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RobHom
Guest
Sola… good response!!
I said "Judeo-Christian…because the reality to me and many others, is that “Christianity” embraced many Judeo scriptures as well as the 10 Commandments that are contained in Scriptures. Much of Christianity has been guided by the OT, not just the NT, therefore its Judeo-Christian… and it was (my response) somewhat an attempt to deflect claims by people who seem to not understand the realities of US History…
I agree much with your further statement…about capitalists, etc.
I also would have to agree that Catholics were hardly a majority in our early days… and in the terms you put it…most of the founders were “protestant”.
I like your grip on the realities of US History!!
I said "Judeo-Christian…because the reality to me and many others, is that “Christianity” embraced many Judeo scriptures as well as the 10 Commandments that are contained in Scriptures. Much of Christianity has been guided by the OT, not just the NT, therefore its Judeo-Christian… and it was (my response) somewhat an attempt to deflect claims by people who seem to not understand the realities of US History…
I agree much with your further statement…about capitalists, etc.
I also would have to agree that Catholics were hardly a majority in our early days… and in the terms you put it…most of the founders were “protestant”.
I like your grip on the realities of US History!!
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sola_scriptura
Guest
Indeed, thanks for the remarks. You know when I think about American history, or history in general it really confirms my Calvinist outlook.
God even uses heathens to accomplish His will. We in this country have a tendency to look at America through a divine prism. It’s been like this for quite some time (manifest destiny is a good example). Even when we look at how Washington was constructed (like Rome) we can see we were an ambitious bunch right from very near the beginning.
There were all sorts of influences in our early history. I haven’t heard the Free Masons mentioned, who were a very important group.
Our early view of Catholicism was shaped by our view of Roman tyranny, which existed to some extent even after the empire was Christianized. Not much sooner after the reformation broke out did the countries who were the most uncomfortable with having a Roman master defect from its church. So this whole thing is beyond mere theological disagreement, there are many historical roots to this that are often ignored.
Indeed the Old Testament does tell us that God blesses and curses nations, not just individuals. So under this premise we might speculate that God looks at protestants favorably.
This country has beaten back every unGodly collection of men in history so far. From the Nazi’s to the communists all have crumbled just exactly as God decreed. Man when I think about the power and majesty of God, divine providence, I get a sense of euphoria.
I think many in Christianity have a tendency to look at God as sort of like a tooth fairy. God is completely good yes indeed, however, He inscrutably uses wickedness to His advantage. The devil to this day has deluded himself into thinking he’s opposing God, all the while God is using even him to accomplish His good will and purpose. How could we know love without hate? How could we know sinlessness without sin? So when people tell me the fall of man or the devils rebellion was some sort of cosmic accident that God did not plan, I say – as if? God is never surprised, He does not learn, He not only knows everything but decreed everything. He doesn’t look down the tunnel of time and react to our behavior, He is time, He creates time and everything in it. Divine providence should be a wonderful thing for the Christian.
God even uses heathens to accomplish His will. We in this country have a tendency to look at America through a divine prism. It’s been like this for quite some time (manifest destiny is a good example). Even when we look at how Washington was constructed (like Rome) we can see we were an ambitious bunch right from very near the beginning.
There were all sorts of influences in our early history. I haven’t heard the Free Masons mentioned, who were a very important group.
Our early view of Catholicism was shaped by our view of Roman tyranny, which existed to some extent even after the empire was Christianized. Not much sooner after the reformation broke out did the countries who were the most uncomfortable with having a Roman master defect from its church. So this whole thing is beyond mere theological disagreement, there are many historical roots to this that are often ignored.
Indeed the Old Testament does tell us that God blesses and curses nations, not just individuals. So under this premise we might speculate that God looks at protestants favorably.
This country has beaten back every unGodly collection of men in history so far. From the Nazi’s to the communists all have crumbled just exactly as God decreed. Man when I think about the power and majesty of God, divine providence, I get a sense of euphoria.
I think many in Christianity have a tendency to look at God as sort of like a tooth fairy. God is completely good yes indeed, however, He inscrutably uses wickedness to His advantage. The devil to this day has deluded himself into thinking he’s opposing God, all the while God is using even him to accomplish His good will and purpose. How could we know love without hate? How could we know sinlessness without sin? So when people tell me the fall of man or the devils rebellion was some sort of cosmic accident that God did not plan, I say – as if? God is never surprised, He does not learn, He not only knows everything but decreed everything. He doesn’t look down the tunnel of time and react to our behavior, He is time, He creates time and everything in it. Divine providence should be a wonderful thing for the Christian.
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