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lak611
Guest
Why would Protestants even concern themselves with a private revelation that is not required to be believed by Catholics?
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ASimpleSinner
Guest
In a fit of brashness I asked similar of a co-worker back when I was in high school. Her response, while reserved and largely charitable, was, in effect
“Hindus and New Age types claim to have miracles, yet you don’t feel compelled to believe that religion is true!”
And she said it without rancor. In all fairness to her, she had a point. Pointing to supernatural phenomena like Fatima (which I FIRMLY BELIEVE IN) will not be convincing to a non-Catholic in and of itself.
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TDiGaetano
Guest
I think a better topic for protestants would be
Our Lady Of Guadalupe
during the reformation we lost 5 million souls, but our Lady went out and brought 9 million to Christ’s Church.
Our Lady Of Guadalupe
during the reformation we lost 5 million souls, but our Lady went out and brought 9 million to Christ’s Church.
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ncgolf
Guest
Couple of points …
For the children of Fatima and for Bernadette in the 1800’s no monetary fame came with these visions.
2 of the children from Fatima died young … and the eldest became a Sister who lived a vow of poverty and chastity the rest of her life.
Bernadette became a nun who died young and lived the rest of her days as a Sister.
Many have tried to discredit these visions but no one has discredited the children themselves. It should have been easy for they were uneducated and simple but given all the pressure applied they never recounted. For these to be truly fakes the children would have had to be found liars. This did not happen.
For the children of Fatima and for Bernadette in the 1800’s no monetary fame came with these visions.
2 of the children from Fatima died young … and the eldest became a Sister who lived a vow of poverty and chastity the rest of her life.
Bernadette became a nun who died young and lived the rest of her days as a Sister.
Many have tried to discredit these visions but no one has discredited the children themselves. It should have been easy for they were uneducated and simple but given all the pressure applied they never recounted. For these to be truly fakes the children would have had to be found liars. This did not happen.
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honeysuckle
Guest
2 Thessalonians 2:9 The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders,
Carefully read the words of the apparition, and contrast those words to the words of our Lord.
Carefully read the words of the apparition, and contrast those words to the words of our Lord.
- God is never directly glorified, despite the fact Jesus says in his ministry on Earth many times, “What I do I do in the name of the Father”
- The children are asked to embrace suffering and death, not to build their Christian character, but to atone for the sins of those who are going to hell. Contrast this idea to the ideas clearly presented in the Book of Hebrews. Our atonement is Christ.
- Mary denies many requests for mercy, in stark contrast to Our Savior.
- Mary never demonstrates any healing ability. Rather, she says of some, “they will improve in the year”. There is never a shred of evidence that people come to the apparition as it is appearing and walk away healed. The apparition very well could have been simply reporting her knowledge of future events, but the knowledge of future events is in no way indicative of divine power. Demons can easily predict the future. Anyone who doubts this is not familiar with pagan religions.
- Why would God send us a terrifying vision of the sun hurtling to earth? Who is that helping? Does that edify the body of Christ?
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E.E.N.S
Guest
Our Lady of Fatima stressed the need for individual souls to stop sinning and return to God, as God is being grievously offended and countless souls are falling into hell because of their sins. Our Lady of Fatima stressed the need for prayer, sacrifice and penance – not necessarily austere penances, but more important, the penance of each person fulfilling his or her daily duty well, obeying God’s laws, avoiding the near occasions of sin and acting in accordance with His will in all things.
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honeysuckle
Guest
Yes, and this is something that the all world religions would readily embrace and believe.
But there is one name under heaven by which we are saved, according to Peter, the Rock of the Church, who was also crucified upside down so that noone would confuse his death with the atonement of Christ.
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Ginger2
Guest
Gee, no one ever heard of that idea before. Good thing she let us know, “God is being grievously offended” by our sinning so the world would stop sinning.
One question…why hasn’t the world changed? It seems to me we’ve gotten worst.
Where’s the miracle???
Jonah, a mere man, went to Ninevah and the whole city turned from their sin in repentance!
And, if I remember correctly. he didn’t even have to show them a miracle!!!
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TDiGaetano
Guest
Wasn’t the world better after WW2? At least for Catholics?Gee, no one ever heard of that idea before. Good thing she let us know, “God is being grievously offended” by our sinning so the world would stop sinning.
**One question…why hasn’t the world changed? It seems to me we’ve gotten worst. **
Where’s the miracle???
Jonah, a mere man, went to Ninevah and the whole city turned from their sin in repentance!
And, if I remember correctly. he didn’t even have to show them a miracle!!!
Whats changed in the world since WW2 that has effected the Catholic Church?
Pros from the Catholic Church to society
- Communism Failed in Russia Catholic Church has always spoke out against Communism.
- EWTN, Catholic answers and a handful of new Catholic apologetic groups forming to defend the Truth of the Catholic Faith.
- Respect for human life the Catholic Church always speaks out against Racial discrimination, Contraception, genocide, Abortion and any type of man slaughter. The Catholic church has spoken out how we should Charish Life and want new life, not prevent new life.
- Great spiritual leaders like Blessed Pope John XXIII and Pope John Paul II
- Holding firm to traditional practices and not letting the secular world infiltrate the teachings of the church.
- Firmed its standing against homosexual activity and intolerance of Sin.
- Communism still in China and some other asian countries.
- Further seperation of church and state
- Contraception, allowing increased sex amoungst minors, premerital sex, and preventing life against the will of God.
- Tolerance of Sin.
- Increased homosexual activity
- Increase in Divorce rate.
- More people keeping Religion private not displaying in public.
- Increase in teenage pregnacies.
- Increase in Abortions
- Increased spread of HIV/AIDS
- Increased anti-catholic propoganda
Yes Jesus is our atonment our only way to heaven, but inorder to truly accept the faith of Jesus Christ you have to be willing to surrender your body and soul to him. If you sin you are causing pain to your savoir. He died for us so that we may look to him and follow him to avoid sin all together. We’ve all sinned and fallen short so we are sinners. Just because our Sins are forgiven doesnt mean we are not sinners anymore. Once a sinner always a sinner by title not by works. In baptism we are washed of all our wrongs and reborn into Christ. We have been given a second life, but what do we do with this life?
Do we follow Jesus and suffer and die for christ because we choose not to sin in a sinful world?
Or
Do we say Jesus died for us so I can’t do anything to save myself and if I miss up its ok because Jesus has already forgiven me of my sins.
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honeysuckle
Guest
I don’t know where you are getting the above argument, it makes very little logical sense given the issues. How do you get this argument from a statement of fact that the Bible says Christ atones for our sins? Nobody has suggested anything like that.
But, going back to the first thing you said, “Yes, Jesus is our atonement and our way to heaven,”
Yes, and did the apparition at Fatima say this? NO. That’s the only thing that matters! The apparition did NOT say this!
I am getting the idea that few Catholics have ever bothered to read what this demon said to the children at Fatima, and fewer still have bothered to open their Bibles to compare the words to the apparition.
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Daniel_Marsh
Guest
personally, I think the “miracle of the sun” is simply a perdictable sundog. I have seen the same thing up north here in Michigan and in Alaska, very perdictable – just pay attention to weather patterns. Basically, all natural, nothing supernational involved at all. And, yes the sundogs I have seen in my life do dance.
google.com/search?hl=en&q=sundog
google.com/search?hl=en&q=sundog
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Charlie_Zeaiter
Guest
And do you suppose the 70,000 people in attendance, waiting for a sign on Oct 13th 1917, was just a co-incidence? Or do you suppose the three children were deceiving us?
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TDiGaetano
Guest
Matthew 16:13-20
*Peter’s Confession of Christ
13When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, “Who do people say the Son of Man is?”
In verse 19 if Jesus gave Peter the keys to the kingdom of heaven and the power to bind and loose things on earth and they will be upheld in heaven. Then why is Peter in error for replacing Judas before the holy spirit supposibly comes? Was it because Jesus outside of what is written in the bible might have told Peter what to do.
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Luke 22:28-30
28You are those who have stood by me in my trials. 29And I confer on you a kingdom, just as my Father conferred one on me, 30so that you may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom and sit on thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. *
At the last supper Jesus tells his apostles that he is giving them a kingdom where they will sit on thrones and judge the twelve tribes of Israel. So I guess you can look at this and see Jesus giving a kingdom to the apostles. Is this just heaven or is this a real kingdom that the Catholic Church claims to be?
If this is Heaven since only God judges us in heaven then these 12 must be gods since they can judge the tribes and sit on the seats of power in heaven…
Or it is the Catholic Church since Jesus will be dieing then ressurecting and assending to Heaven he wont physicly be on Earth anymore to show the power of God as the son of God. This allows Jesus to leave this kingdom he started on earth to his Apostles and even though he is not physically present leading the church he can garrentee that anyone who wants to see and hear the truth can through the Catholic Church. The thrones in the Kingdom Jesus gave to his apostles are those of the Catholic Church.
*Peter’s Confession of Christ
13When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, “Who do people say the Son of Man is?”
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14They replied, "Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets."
15"But what about you?" he asked. "Who do you say I am?"
16Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ,[Or Messiah] the Son of the living God."
17Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven. 18And I tell you that you are Peter,[Peter means rock] and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades[Hell] will not overcome it.[not prove stronger than it] **19I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be[have been] bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be[have been] loosed in heaven." **20Then he warned his disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Christ[Messah]. **
Luke 22:28-30
28You are those who have stood by me in my trials. 29And I confer on you a kingdom, just as my Father conferred one on me, 30so that you may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom and sit on thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. *
At the last supper Jesus tells his apostles that he is giving them a kingdom where they will sit on thrones and judge the twelve tribes of Israel. So I guess you can look at this and see Jesus giving a kingdom to the apostles. Is this just heaven or is this a real kingdom that the Catholic Church claims to be?
If this is Heaven since only God judges us in heaven then these 12 must be gods since they can judge the tribes and sit on the seats of power in heaven…
Or it is the Catholic Church since Jesus will be dieing then ressurecting and assending to Heaven he wont physicly be on Earth anymore to show the power of God as the son of God. This allows Jesus to leave this kingdom he started on earth to his Apostles and even though he is not physically present leading the church he can garrentee that anyone who wants to see and hear the truth can through the Catholic Church. The thrones in the Kingdom Jesus gave to his apostles are those of the Catholic Church.
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TDiGaetano
Guest
The point of the question was that we are suppose to be one with Jesus we are suppose to give our lives to him we are to praise him and work with and in him. To continue to sin after God gave his life so that you wouldn’t have to sin anymore.
Do we say Jesus died for us so I can’t do anything to save myself and if I miss up its ok because Jesus has already forgiven me of my sins.
This is a distortion of the truth, by not working with God through your faith you will continue to serve sin while saying you have faith in Jesus.
As far as Fatima I don’t see anything that is contradictory to the bible. And whats wrong with the Devotion to the Immaculate Heart and praying the Rosary… All I see that came out of Fatima was stronger devotion to Jesus because of there are people who keep sinning and who take Jesus’s death for granted.
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honeysuckle
Guest
Once again, WHAT do these ideas have to do with the very cogent points already raised about how Fatima directly contradicts Scripture? I am quite confused by this off-topic tangent. Perhaps the poster is confused and believes he is debating a Protestant and so is dredging up any and all anti-Protestant arguments, despite the fact they have no relevancy to the topic at hand.
If you see nothing contrary to Scripture, then you obviously completely ignored my original post, because I very clearly numbered several points.
- God is never directly glorified, despite the fact Jesus says in his ministry on Earth many times, “What I do I do in the name of the Father”
- The children are asked to embrace suffering and death, not to build their Christian character, but to atone for the sins of those who are going to hell. Contrast this idea to the ideas clearly presented in the Book of Hebrews. Our atonement is Christ.
- Mary denies many requests for mercy, in stark contrast to Our Savior.
- Mary never demonstrates any healing ability. Rather, she says of some, “they will improve in the year”. There is never a shred of evidence that people come to the apparition as it is appearing and walk away healed. The apparition very well could have been simply reporting her knowledge of future events, but the knowledge of future events is in no way indicative of divine power. Demons can easily predict the future. Anyone who doubts this is not familiar with pagan religions.
- Why would God send us a terrifying vision of the sun hurtling to earth? Who is that helping? Does that edify the body of Christ?
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ncgolf
Guest
So God is indirectly glorified … what is the point of this point?
Embracing suffering and death is the ultimate response to Jesus … Jesus embraced both suffering and death … even though He was God… Jesus makes suffering and death more glorious rather than less. Perhaps you have heard of “take up your cross and follow me.” When we unite our own personal suffering and death with Christ we have followed the master. This is Christianity at its most powerful. You sadly misinterpret true Christian character. What is “true” Christian character anyway?
Mary cannot grant mercy … Jesus does … so if anything is denied it is because of Jesus. Mary petitions Jesus albeit through a more powerful communication channel. Mary is still Jesus’s mother … always will be. Jesus healed many but not all people He met. Prayer is always responded to … even though we may not like the answer.
Mary does not heal through her own power but Jesus’s. No Catholic says Mary heals of her own power. The priests ability to forgive sins is the same thing. That power is given … to be used. I don’t know whether evidence points to healings or not at Fatima … but they are documented for Lourdes … and the conversion numbers for Guadalupe are staggering.
So what do you say of Isaiah … one of if not the greatest of the Old Testament prophets. God will use any means necessary to communicate with His people.
His ways our not our ways … any answer to this question will probably not satisfy you anyway. How do you know it didn’t help?
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Daniel_Marsh
Guest
No, it was simply psychology of fullfilling expectations.
If you look at the mormon religion for example they “expect a miracle” and in their mind whatever happens is a miracle.
I think the whole thing can be explained by group dymatics of expectation. The time of year gave them the correct type of weather to cause the sundogs. And, people choose to interpret the common as supernational.
No one needed to purposely try to decieve someone else. They all simply choose to decieve themselves psychologically speaking through expectations and interpreting the common weather occurances as supernational.
This so-called dancing sun was not seen by any observatories, therefore it had to be something “local”. If you read up on sundogs and other such observatiable LOCAL weather occurrances you will see that the dancing sun, was nothing more than a common weather sundog which is common to that area of the world at that time of year.
I see the so-callled prophecies as simply additions to a legend.
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ncgolf
Guest
Boy how to get 70,000 people to agree … that was a miracle. There must be other phenomenon where so many people saw something that befuddled them at the time when something was supposed to happen. Please list some. I am not talking 10 or 100 or even 1,000 people seeing it … something over 35,000 people. For you to say it was mere psychology deception … this would had to occur and be documented before. The Red Sox winning the World Series doesn’t count.No, it was simply psychology of fullfilling expectations.
If you look at the mormon religion for example they “expect a miracle” and in their mind whatever happens is a miracle.
I think the whole thing can be explained by group dymatics of expectation. The time of year gave them the correct type of weather to cause the sundogs. And, people choose to interpret the common as supernational.
No one needed to purposely try to decieve someone else. They all simply choose to decieve themselves psychologically speaking through expectations and interpreting the common weather occurances as supernational.
This so-called dancing sun was not seen by any observatories, therefore it had to be something “local”. If you read up on sundogs and other such observatiable LOCAL weather occurrances you will see that the dancing sun, was nothing more than a common weather sundog which is common to that area of the world at that time of year.
I see the so-callled prophecies as simply additions to a legend.
Legends begin with something like this … “It has been said that a headless horseman comes out on the full moon and rides up and down the countryside …” , they usually don’t start out with …“70,000 people saw some event that cannot be explained …”.
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