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TAB39
Guest
AMEN!! Excellent post!
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O.S.Luke
Guest
What do you want to know about it, Catholic one?
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O.S.Luke
Guest
from John Wesley’s Explanatory Notes:
[22] But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
But I say unto you — Which of the prophets ever spake thus? Their language is, Thus saith the Lord. Who hath authority to use this language, but the one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy.
Whosoever is angry with his brother — Some copies add, without a cause - But this is utterly foreign to the whole scope and tenor of our Lord’s discourse. If he had only forbidden the being angry without a cause, there was no manner of need of that solemn declaration, I say unto you; for the scribes and Pharisees themselves said as much as this. Even they taught, men ought not to be angry without a cause. So that this righteousness does not exceed theirs. But Christ teaches, that we ought not, for any cause, to be so angry as to call any man Raca, or fool. We ought not, for any cause, to be angry at the person of the sinner, but at his sins only. Happy world, were this plain and necessary distinction thoroughly understood, remembered, practised! Raca means, a silly man, a trifler.
Whosoever shall say, Thou fool — Shall revile, or seriously reproach any man. Our Lord specified three degrees of murder, each liable to a sorer punishment than the other: not indeed from men, but from God.
Hell fire — In the valley of Hinnom (whence the word in the original is taken) the children were used to be burnt alive to Moloch. It was afterward made a receptacle for the filth of the city, where continual fires were kept to consume it. And it is probable, if any criminals were burnt alive, it was in this accursed and horrible place. Therefore both as to its former and latter state, it was a fit emblem of hell. It must here signify a degree of future punishment, as much more dreadful than those incurred in the two former cases, as burning alive is more dreadful than either strangling or stoning.
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From the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops:
22 But I say to you, whoever is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment, and whoever says to his brother, ‘Raqa,’ will be answerable to the Sanhedrin, and whoever says, ‘You fool,’ will be liable to fiery Gehenna.
[22-26] Reconciliation with an offended brother is urged in the admonition of Matthew 5:23-24 and the parable of Matthew 5:25-26 (Luke 12:58-59). The severity of the judge in the parable is a warning of the fate of unrepentant sinners in the coming judgment by God.
[22] Anger is the motive behind murder, as the insulting epithets are steps that may lead to it. They, as well as the deed, are all forbidden. Raqa: an Aramaic word reqa’ or reqa probably meaning “imbecile,” “blockhead,” a term of abuse. The ascending order of punishment, judgment (by a local council?), trial before the Sanhedrin, condemnation to Gehenna, points to a higher degree of seriousness in each of the offenses. Sanhedrin: the highest judicial body of Judaism. Gehenna: in Hebrew ge-hinnom, “Valley of Hinnom,” or ge ben-hinnom, “Valley of the son of Hinnom,” southwest of Jerusalem, the center of an idolatrous cult during the monarchy in which children were offered in sacrifice (see 2 Kings 23:10; Jeremiah 7:31). In Joshua 18:16 (Septuagint, Codex Vaticanus) the Hebrew is transliterated into Greek as gaienna, which appears in the New Testament as geenna. The concept of punishment of sinners by fire either after death or after the final judgment is found in Jewish apocalyptic literature (e.g., Enoch 90:26) but the name geenna is first given to the place of punishment in the New Testament.
[22] But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
But I say unto you — Which of the prophets ever spake thus? Their language is, Thus saith the Lord. Who hath authority to use this language, but the one lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy.
Whosoever is angry with his brother — Some copies add, without a cause - But this is utterly foreign to the whole scope and tenor of our Lord’s discourse. If he had only forbidden the being angry without a cause, there was no manner of need of that solemn declaration, I say unto you; for the scribes and Pharisees themselves said as much as this. Even they taught, men ought not to be angry without a cause. So that this righteousness does not exceed theirs. But Christ teaches, that we ought not, for any cause, to be so angry as to call any man Raca, or fool. We ought not, for any cause, to be angry at the person of the sinner, but at his sins only. Happy world, were this plain and necessary distinction thoroughly understood, remembered, practised! Raca means, a silly man, a trifler.
Whosoever shall say, Thou fool — Shall revile, or seriously reproach any man. Our Lord specified three degrees of murder, each liable to a sorer punishment than the other: not indeed from men, but from God.
Hell fire — In the valley of Hinnom (whence the word in the original is taken) the children were used to be burnt alive to Moloch. It was afterward made a receptacle for the filth of the city, where continual fires were kept to consume it. And it is probable, if any criminals were burnt alive, it was in this accursed and horrible place. Therefore both as to its former and latter state, it was a fit emblem of hell. It must here signify a degree of future punishment, as much more dreadful than those incurred in the two former cases, as burning alive is more dreadful than either strangling or stoning.
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From the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops:
22 But I say to you, whoever is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment, and whoever says to his brother, ‘Raqa,’ will be answerable to the Sanhedrin, and whoever says, ‘You fool,’ will be liable to fiery Gehenna.
[22-26] Reconciliation with an offended brother is urged in the admonition of Matthew 5:23-24 and the parable of Matthew 5:25-26 (Luke 12:58-59). The severity of the judge in the parable is a warning of the fate of unrepentant sinners in the coming judgment by God.
[22] Anger is the motive behind murder, as the insulting epithets are steps that may lead to it. They, as well as the deed, are all forbidden. Raqa: an Aramaic word reqa’ or reqa probably meaning “imbecile,” “blockhead,” a term of abuse. The ascending order of punishment, judgment (by a local council?), trial before the Sanhedrin, condemnation to Gehenna, points to a higher degree of seriousness in each of the offenses. Sanhedrin: the highest judicial body of Judaism. Gehenna: in Hebrew ge-hinnom, “Valley of Hinnom,” or ge ben-hinnom, “Valley of the son of Hinnom,” southwest of Jerusalem, the center of an idolatrous cult during the monarchy in which children were offered in sacrifice (see 2 Kings 23:10; Jeremiah 7:31). In Joshua 18:16 (Septuagint, Codex Vaticanus) the Hebrew is transliterated into Greek as gaienna, which appears in the New Testament as geenna. The concept of punishment of sinners by fire either after death or after the final judgment is found in Jewish apocalyptic literature (e.g., Enoch 90:26) but the name geenna is first given to the place of punishment in the New Testament.
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Peter_J
Guest
It’s kind of funny, when you think about it. Christ told us “first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.” But what practically always happens is that each of us says to our neighbor, “take the plank out of your eye”. (I guess that’s one way of “imitating Christ”. 
)
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racing59
Guest
I haven’t kept up with all posting but I wanted to share a thought. I have no problem with purgatory, but I wanted to share something I found intresting in Scripture. 1 Corithians 3:10-17 talk of building on the foundation Christ has laid. I understand Catholics believe in the Primacy of Peter being that foundation of the Catholic Church. Want I found very intresting is that if you built on different levels, the builder still survives,but his work doen’t.Could this be an argument for non Catholics that they still make it to Purgatory even if the don’t except the Catholic Church as the true Church?
Just a thought.
Peace
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OneTrueCathApos
Guest
Well, Protestant one, if you agree with this Scriptural passage, then you believe there is Purgatory. Unless you interpret it as something else…
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O.S.Luke
Guest
Do you read ANYTHING I post before comment, OTCA. Anything at all?!?!? 
I believe in hell/gehenna - which is what the text in question clearly outlines. Where is there mention of purgatory?
Catholic, explain that one.
I believe in hell/gehenna - which is what the text in question clearly outlines. Where is there mention of purgatory?
Catholic, explain that one.
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TAB39
Guest
What about it?
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racing59
Guest
I’ll re-word my question. I Corinthians 3:10-17 seems to imply there is Salvation by our belief in Christ.If your not Catholic and still a Christian doesn’t imply you still make it?I haven’t kept up with all posting but I wanted to share a thought. I have no problem with purgatory, but I wanted to share something I found intresting in Scripture. 1 Corithians 3:10-17 talk of building on the foundation Christ has laid. I understand Catholics believe in the Primacy of Peter being that foundation of the Catholic Church. Want I found very intresting is that if you built on different levels, the builder still survives,but his work doen’t.Could this be an argument for non Catholics that they still make it to Purgatory even if the don’t except the Catholic Church as the true Church?
Just a thought.
Peace
/B]
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Peter_J
Guest
I’ll re-word my question. I Corinthians 3:10-17 seems to imply there is Salvation by our belief in Christ.If your not Catholic and still a Christian doesn’t imply you still make it?
Your question strikes me as odd, because I believe that the Catholic Church has made it clear that you can be saved without being RC (in communion with Rome).
?
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ppasa316
Guest
First of all I do not believe in Purgatory. “to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.” Secondly 2 Cor 5:10 does not even come close to talking about purgatory. It is talking about rewards that all believers will receive. Actions which happened during the believers time of earthly ministry.
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OneTrueCathApos
Guest
Scriptural evidence of Purgatory:
**Eclesiastes 12:14— “For god will bring every deed into judgment, with every secret thing, whether good or evil”.
Isaiah 4:4— “When the Lord shall have washed away the filth of the daughters of Zion and cleansed the bloodstains of Jerusalem from its midst by a spirit of judgment and by a spirit of burning” (see also Isaiah 1:25-26).
Psalm 66:12— “Thou didst let men ride over our heads; we went through fire and through water; yet thou hast brought us forth to a spacious place”.
**To even be so arrogant as to think you’ll go straight to heaven with sin on your soul is not in teachings of Jesus Christ.
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OneTrueCathApos
Guest
How many Scriptures do I need to show you before you get it?Do you read ANYTHING I post before comment, OTCA. Anything at all?!?!?
I believe in hell/gehenna - which is what the text in question clearly outlines. Where is there mention of purgatory?
Catholic, explain that one.
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Mommyoftwo
Guest
Hmmm
I’m new here so please don’t jump on me… but I’m not sure that you can use OT books such as Psalms and Issiah to justify purgatory as Jesus rose from the dead, opening the gates of heaven.
I’m new here so please don’t jump on me… but I’m not sure that you can use OT books such as Psalms and Issiah to justify purgatory as Jesus rose from the dead, opening the gates of heaven.
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TAB39
Guest
Well, you’ll need to show me something a heck of alot more convincing that what you have come up with so far. I mean John 6 is very convincing that the Eucharist is the Body and Blood of Christ no doubt, but the whole premise of Purgatory is extremely fuzzy at best by trying to justify it by Scripture. Isn’t it just plainly fair to say that the teaching of Purgatory comes to us much more by the Magisterium than it does by Scripture?How many Scriptures do I need to show you before you get it?
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ppasa316
Guest
I don’t have any idea what bible your are using but God’s Word does not mention purgatory. Heb 10:14 "For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified. What does forever mean to you. Rom 8:1 “Therefore there is now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus.” How do you explain this verse regarding purgatory. The scriptures are clear that at the moment of death, believers go directly into the presence of God. Please read 2 cor 5:6-8 what does Paul say. If Phillipians 1:23 and 2 Cor 5:8 clearly teach that all believers in 'christ go straight to heaven how do you reconcile these with the doctrine of purgatory? How long have you studied the scriptures because clearly you are not following God’s Word. Please be careful when responding to threads if you really dont have a clear scriptural answer. Colossians 2:8:thumbsup:
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ppasa316
Guest
Very well said.
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TAB39
Guest
Thanks.
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Robbinson
Guest
I agree with this as well. Look, I read this thread and, as my people would say . . . “oy vey”
Is it possible that there is a time of further purification or refinement as through fire even for the saved after death? Yes, its possible, and one does not (IMO) contravene scripture if one believes that. Our sins are forgiven through the perfect and complete work of Christ and thus those who believe are saved - but this does not preclude a concept of purification in heaven. Indeed, we know from scripture that there will be distinctions made in heaven among believers based upon how they followed Christ’s commandments on earth. Critically - this is not a question of salvation (that is by faith alone) but of sanctification.
However, by the same token - this possible concept of purification is not directly taught in scripture. It is “arguably” implied perhaps - but not clearly and unambiguosly taught. The concept thus comes more from the tradition and teaching of the Catholic Church than from scripture (with an assist from the book of Macabees). I’d point out that the concept of purification of the soul after death is also a traditional Jewish belief.
Lets celebrate what we have in common - our love of, faith in, and dedication to, Christ as Lord and Saviour!
Blessings,
Brian
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OneTrueCathApos
Guest
That’s because in your Protestant bible, you had 7 books thrown out by your glorious Reformer Martin Luther, therefore my bible which is the original bible, never changed, never distorted, is the bible from Apostle as written 2,000 years ago. St. Paul NEVER says we are all going straight to heaven…your arrogance about thinking that is pitiful. St. Paul says “But only through fire will man be saved.” 1Cor. 3:11-15 this is a clear and obvious allusion to Purgatory, even for the more skeptical person.
**Phillipians 2:10-11:
“At the name of Jesus, every knee should bow, in Heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.”
Revelation 5:3, 13:
And no one in Heaven or on earth or under the earth was able to open the scroll or to look into it…And I heard every creature in Heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, and all therein, saying, “To him who sits upon the throne
and to the Lamb be blessing and honor and glory and might forever and ever”
If God refuses to receive prayer, praise and worship from the unrepentant sinner (Ps. 66:18, Prov. 1:28-30, Isa. 1:15, 59:2, Jer. 6:20, Amos 5:21-24, Mic. 3:4, Mal. 1:10, John 9:31, Heb. 10:38), why would he permit the damned to undertake this practice?.**
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