Protestants, has the reformation project run its course?

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Ahh such a long debate and so little time.

IMO the final question became this which I believe GK Chesterton was also confronted with as was Bl John Henry Newman among others. Are you willing to stake eternity on your belief in faith?

Here I digress to the Apostolic Churchs.

That said, being raised and educated Catholic to me it was not a question of “if” I should be Catholic, but just how closely I should observe the teachings and practice them.

Not an easy path as noted when ideas of freedom come to mind. Certainly not as difficult as some would lead you to believe though.
 
The first question is, would it be of God to have his first church wandering in error for 1,500 years ? Even ten years after Jesus death there was no bible. What important interactions and traditions were being followed? Are they irrelevant? All scripture is God breathed but please site a verse that says ONLY scripture is a source of teaching. As well you have been shown the verses that make the act of tradition clear, in the scriptures I might add
Hi Johnnyjones,

I don’t see the church as being all wrong for 1500 years, I see vast amounts of truth in it, but also I see errors or lack of clarity in it. I think scripture shows the church can go “wander from the truth”; The churches in Galatia for example whom Paul was “astonished” with at how quickly they had turned from his Gospel. The same in Corinth, hence the 4 or so letters he has to write to correct them…

In the years of the earliest church they would rely on apostolic preaching and teaching, my position though is that this was recorded for us in the scriptures, containing everything needed for salvation. Don’t get me wrong, I don’t think all tradition is bad, far from it, but I think it should be tested to the sure witness of apostolic doctrine we have in the scriptures.
So the verses on tradition; yes, they were to hold them fast. But if things such as papal infallibility or the immaculate conception are part of this same apostolic tradition, shouldnt they be plain to see in early patristics? Genuine questions and convictions.

Peace.

Lincs.
 
=mitex;9155650]Are you prepared to have separate and autonomous Churches and ordinates for protestant Churches in order to reconcile with Rome?! Because it will take much more than that than it did to get a few tired Anglicans to rejoin.
I’m not prepared for these because we are not there yet. Who knows what the Spirit has in store. Further, reconciliation is more about doctrine than liturgy, though I like most Lutherans love ours. Curious; why did you feel the need to use the adjective “tired” to describe the Anglicans who have chosen the ordinariate? Is it not possible that they are truly moved by their faith?
Lutherans and Methodists will insist on keeping much of their unique liturgy and confessional history intact in order to be reunited with Rome.
I can’t speak for Methodists, but again this still seems to be cart before horse.
They won’t wake up one day magically adopt Catholic liturgy and worship styles.
See above.
And I don’t know how you will get the Presbyterians since their entire Church leadership is based on election.
The Baptists and Evangelicals are out of the question. They hate hierarchies, liturgy, sacraments, and tradition. Each parish is an independent unit that is autonomous and runs itself. Its called congregationalism.
Why would you ask me about any of them?
You’ve got your work cut out for you.
Not my work - the Holy Spirit’s.

Jon
 
We also have folk Catholicism in places like Mexico and the Philippines where people are basically practicing witchcraft and worshipping Mary and the Church does not seem to care. I think this is the result of placing nonessential doctrines on the same level as essential ones. I know the Catholic Church does not worship Mary but many Catholics in these countries do. Ask them if you don’t believe me!
I have asked, you are wrong. My family is from Mexico and they ask Mother Mary to hear their prayers and carry them. However, I am sure they are people who do practice things that the church would call heresy.
 
The first question is, would it be of God to have his first church wandering in error for 1,500 years ? Even ten years after Jesus death there was no bible. What important interactions and traditions were being followed? Are they irrelevant? All scripture is God breathed but please site a verse that says ONLY scripture is a source of teaching. As well you have been shown the verses that make the act of tradition clear, in the scriptures I might add
👍 Protestants can’t get passed that one. (1500 years of truth) Quite frankly my conversation with Lincoln ends when he starts quoting James White’s AO ministries. I’m into conversation not bringing up scripture and valid points to have them dismissed from flawed reasoning by a bold anti-Catholic like White.

:banghead: -(not for me)

Maybe you’ll have better luck.

Fight the good fight my friend… :knight2:
 
👍 Protestants can’t get passed that one. (1500 years of truth) Quite frankly my conversation with Lincoln ends when he starts quoting James White’s AO ministries. I’m into conversation not bringing up scripture and valid points to have them dismissed from flawed reasoning by a bold anti-Catholic like White.

:banghead: -(not for me)

Maybe you’ll have better luck.

Fight the good fight my friend… :knight2:
Proliferanter,

Is the ad Hominem against Dr. White needed? I asked genuine questions and footnoted them as i utilised its ideas, they were not my own… I posted an interpretation of those verses from Thessolonians. Why is the reasoning on this verse flawed?

Peace, Lincs.
 
And I don’t know how you will get the Presbyterians since their entire Church leadership is based on election.

The Baptists and Evangelicals are out of the question. They hate hierarchies, liturgy, sacraments, and tradition. Each parish is an independent unit that is autonomous and runs itself. Its called congregationalism. You’ve got your work cut out for you.
God doesn’t want Presbyterians, Baptists, and Evangelicals in the Catholic Church. He wants former Presbyterians, Baptists, and Evangelicals in the Catholic Church.

Among Catholic converts I know, only the best of the best Protestants convert into the Catholic Church.

Of the fallen away Catholics I know, every single one had a marriage problem and is now a devout anti-Catholic.
 
When I was a Protestant, I did think the reformation project had some points in its favor, such as wanting to involve lay people in reading the Scriptures, challenging corruption in the Church, correcting superstition, etc.

However, and I would direct this particularly to members of traditional Protestant denominations such as Anglicans, Lutherans, Prebyterians - it seems to me that this project has run its course, and these goals are now more fulfilled in the Catholic Church than in the reformed ones.

At the same time, these denominations themselves, if you look at their history, succumbed to various kinds of change in the 19th century, which basically meant that their original teachings and direction of travel died out, and was only revived, if you like, by a transfusion from the Catholic Church. The Anglican Church went from puritan origins to being almost Catholic in its liturgy thanks to the Oxford Movement. Even John Wesley returned from the rationalism of the Anglican establishment to an interest in lives of personal holiness, confession, fasting, supernatural intervention, when he founded the Methodist church. The Presbyterians fell into endless divisions (between evangelicals and strict calvinists, between congregationalists and ordained, between unitarian congregationalists and trinitarians, between free presbyterians and organized ones, etc.) and it is hard to find any 5-point calvinists today, with the exception of the Scottish Highlands and the WBC. Most horrifyingly of all, the Lutherans fell into modernism, with 19th century modernist theologians who conceived of God as just an abstraction for the reality of the church serving the people, the volk, which made it all too easy for the German Lutheran Church to become the National Socialist Church of the 1930s. This atrocity might have finished off the Lutherans, were it not for their embracing the more traditional theology of Karl Barth in the latter part of the 20th century. Barth, who has much in common with his Catholic contemporary von Balthassar, encouraged a return to encounter with the supernatural, a return to the kind of supernatural faith which the rationalism of Protestant enlightenment had excluded, but which the Catholic faith had never abandoned.

The mainline Protestant churches of today have an openness to the supernatural, an interest in liturgy, even a rediscovery of the virtues of monastic and contemplative life, which the signatories of the Westminster Confession would have condemned as popish superstition. All of this is positive, and shows that men and women of good will have reappropriated much of the good that was lost in the reformation.

At the same time, from the ‘sola scriptura’ of Luther, contemporary Protestantism has further deviated, building up its own canon of tradition, of ‘right’ ways to read scripture, from the 5 fundamentals of the early 20th century, to historical critical method. At one time, Protestantism produced spiritual writers like John Bunyan, who wrote for the ages, now it produces Rick Warren and Tim LaHaye. At the same time, superstition has crept back into the Protestant churches, whether in the form of the ‘prosperity gospel’ (the more you give, the more you’ll get/ tithe from the salary you want to have), the ‘Toronto blessing’, end-times speculation, or any number of other strange teachings.

At the same time, the Catholic Church has rededicated itself to good catechesis and teaching the faith to lay people, encouraging them to open up the Scriptures, and the wealth of good writings on how to understand it correctly. Our Tradition continues to inspire contemplatives who write for the ages, Thomas Merton or Henri Nouwen, Adriane von Speyr, to name a few. The Church hierarchy has detached itself from political regimes and corruption, the sanctification of the laity is no new invention to Catholicism, but is found in the writings of Pope St Pius X, the lives of St Gianna Molla, Frank Duff, Dorothy Day, again to name only a few. Superstition is challenged and conquered, with the Pope standing up against syncretism in his recent visits to Cuba and Benin, and old devotional traditions that gave only lip service to prayers giving way to renewed interest in contemplative spirituality and active participation in the liturgy.

So, has the reformation project run its course?
I would not say it has run its course;but moreover, in what “course” has it run into? :confused:
 
Andrew your very judgmental. Evangelical Episcopalians don’t even use the BCP anymore really except for communion. Instead of critizing what you do not understand why don’t you mind yourself before you go judging others… 👍

Most Evangelicals have left the Episcopalian Church because they’ve become very much so protestant than Anglican/Catholic.

We are a small minority. But that doesn’t give you the right to go proclaiming how I am some kind of heretic who doesn’t know his own faith. How would you like it if I said those things about you for being Catholic? :eek:
If you don’t beleive in or use the BCP,please remove it from your signiture.

As I said before I came from a low church diocese, not Anglo/Catholic.

I think you are misrepresenting TEC.

“getting saved” and OSAS are Baptist and Calvinist teachings, and not Episcopal.
 
If you don’t beleive in or use the BCP,please remove it from your signiture.

As I said before I came from a low church diocese, not Anglo/Catholic.

I think you are misrepresenting TEC.

“getting saved” and OSAS are Baptist and Calvinist teachings, and not Episcopal.
I won’t argue with you anymore. Your Catholic now. Don’t tell me what to believe and I won’t tell you what to believe. There everyone’s a winner! 🙂
 
If you don’t beleive in or use the BCP,please remove it from your signiture.

As I said before I came from a low church diocese, not Anglo/Catholic.

I think you are misrepresenting TEC.

“getting saved” and OSAS are Baptist and Calvinist teachings, and not Episcopal.
Believe it or not I was raised high church and its part of my heritage. That’s why the BCP is there. But then again you shouldn’t be telling me what to post or say.

Respectfully of course. Most Episcopalians don’t believe what I believe and some of this is my personal beliefs and others are part of my parish’s. Don’t tell me what to post 🙂
 
If you would read headers you would find I am Anticocian Orthodox, not Latin Catholic or Episcopal, I don’t misrepesent myself as you do by calling yourself Episcopal.

So be stubborn and mispresent TEC, some people unfamiliar with TEC might even believe you.

But as a former Episcoapalian I know, and don’t believe what you espouse.
 
Proliferanter,

Is the ad Hominem against Dr. White needed? I asked genuine questions and footnoted them as i utilised its ideas, they were not my own… I posted an interpretation of those verses from Thessolonians. Why is the reasoning on this verse flawed?

Peace, Lincs.
There is no “ad hominem”… that’s a personal attack that is more of a slanderous nature, what I said is FACT. He mocks and attacks the Catholic Church every chance he gets. He is a horrible unkind debater those are all FACTS. Its flawed because it is mere opinion not something handed down but why try to even converse with you, you just dismiss the church fathers many of whom knew the apostles in favor of someone like White. :mad:
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lincoln7
Proliferanter,
Is the ad Hominem against Dr. White needed? I asked genuine questions and footnoted them as i utilised its ideas, they were not my own… I posted an interpretation of those verses from Thessolonians. Why is the reasoning on this verse flawed?
Peace, Lincs.
James White? Seriously? He is credible as much as Wikipedia and Chick!
 
James White? Seriously? He is credible as much as Wikipedia and Chick!
With respect, that’s a tad bit of a libellous claim… Mention Dr.Whites name and no one engages the question, just brings up negativity… No one is yet to actually respond to the specific instances I utilised an AO blog regarding the verses in Thessalonians…

Peace

Lincs.
 
There is no “ad hominem”… that’s a personal attack that is more of a slanderous nature, what I said is FACT. He mocks and attacks the Catholic Church every chance he gets. He is a horrible unkind debater those are all FACTS. Its flawed because it is mere opinion not something handed down but why try to even converse with you, you just dismiss the church fathers many of whom knew the apostles in favor of someone like White. :mad:
Hi again prolifer,

Im saddened that out discussion has become a bit heated here… I don’t dismiss the fathers, I read them. But I also test them to scripture. I may pull out of this thread, the night before Easter I don’t think any of us want to be in a heated debate like this.

Peace, have a good Easter.

Lincs.
 
Answer to the OP: it’s run and run but many have died from heart attacks from this marathon, some have had children on the course (20,000 denominations) some have decided to no longer run. (me included-want to convert)
 
God doesn’t want Presbyterians, Baptists, and Evangelicals in the Catholic Church. He wants former Presbyterians, Baptists, and Evangelicals in the Catholic Church.

Among Catholic converts I know, only the best of the best Protestants convert into the Catholic Church.

Of the fallen away Catholics I know, every single one had a marriage problem and is now a devout anti-Catholic.
It would seem to me, that the Catholic Church needs to heal itself and prevent a rift with the priests in Austria that want married clergy and women ordination. Sometimes former Catholics and former Protestants are better members of their respective new Church than the ones that are born into the Church, Catholic or Protestant.
 
With respect, that’s a tad bit of a libellous claim… Mention Dr.Whites name and no one engages the question, just brings up negativity… No one is yet to actually respond to the specific instances I utilised an AO blog regarding the verses in Thessalonians…

Peace

Lincs.
I am sorry,but it is more of an insult to accept James White anti-Catholic attacks. What verses from Thessalonians?
 
James White an anti Catholic debate junkie who’s “opinion” is worth exactly what in light of 2000 years of know history of Apostolic Tradition? Another pennie for another opinion. 🤷

And who listens to his nonsense, oh right anti-Catholics? :rolleyes:
 
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