Protestants: Have you changed your mind on anything "Catholic" because of something said on these forums?

[SD_Catholic]

Look I agree with you. I’m never one to throw stones… but 12%? Don’t you think that might give rise to reconsidering the celibacy requirement? Just a question.

This is how I feel about the celibacy requirement… The man agrees to that life style when he chooses to become a priest… he makes a vow to God to live a celibate life… if he can’t keep that vow to God why should we believe he would keep any other vow? There’s no guarantee that allowing priests to marry would end the abuses… we could probably use the abuse in protestant denominations as proof of that.

SD

 

[Cinette]

This is how I feel about the celibacy requirement… The man agrees to that life style when he chooses to become a priest… he makes a vow to God to live a celibate life… if he can’t keep that vow to God why should we believe he would keep any other vow? There’s no guarantee that allowing priests to marry would end the abuses… we could probably use the abuse in protestant denominations as proof of that.

SD

When a priest abuses his position like that it is a HUGE sin. I believe that they are a product of the times. I have suffered because of them when I see how this impacts on the good holy priests. I attended Convents from a very early age and fortunately never came across this kind of abuse. I suffered abuse from seniors who were big bullies but never from a religious.

I am very sorry for the victims because sexual abuse would have extinguished something inside me forever. We see everyday people who suffer tremendously from every kind of abuse. This is why we need to be close to God.

While I pray every day for more vocations to the priesthood I also recognise the important role of the laity. There have been conferences in Rome some years ago where the topic was, “Missionaries of the 21st century are the laity”. One sees the wonderful work which is being done by the laity. Even by coming to these forums one see the number of people who are full of the spirit and have such zeal and who read and study and share so much. This is so very good.

We are also priests and we minister to each other. I honour the consecrated life and ordained priesthood but I also honour the laity who are so full of ferver and who render such a wonderful service.

When we witness the great impact of Christianity and I mean all of Christianity (even some of the nutty and goofy Christians - I might even be one myself) we can be reassured that one day we will see the purpose of our lives when we enter Eternal Life.

:yup: :bounce:

 

[Peter_J]

Look I agree with you. I’m never one to throw stones… but 12%? Don’t you think that might give rise to reconsidering the celibacy requirement? Just a question.

Reconsider it? Absolutely. Change it? Not necessarily.

 

[Peter_J]

This is how I feel about the celibacy requirement… The man agrees to that life style when he chooses to become a priest… he makes a vow to God to live a celibate life… if he can’t keep that vow to God why should we believe he would keep any other vow? There’s no guarantee that allowing priests to marry would end the abuses… we could probably use the abuse in protestant denominations as proof of that.

SD

There is no question of “allowing priests to marry”. If someone is unmarried at the time of ordination (even diaconal ordination) he is not allowed to marry later on.

The only question is whether to ordain married men. The Eastern Catholic Churches do. The Latin (Western) Catholic Church doesn’t, with the occasional exception of a Lutheran or Anglican minister converting to Catholicism.

(Hence if the celibacy rule was altered, it wouldn’t in any way affect the celibacy of existing Catholic priests.)

 

[Peter_J]

When we witness the great impact of Christianity and I mean all of Christianity (even some of the nutty and goofy Christians - I might even be one myself) we can be reassured that one day we will see the purpose of our lives when we enter Eternal Life.

• She said I could be Markinson and you wouldn’t know it.
• Are you Markinson?
• No.
• I’m not Markinson. That’s two down.
  (A Few Good Men)

 

[sola_scriptura]

This is how I feel about the celibacy requirement… The man agrees to that life style when he chooses to become a priest… he makes a vow to God to live a celibate life… if he can’t keep that vow to God why should we believe he would keep any other vow? There’s no guarantee that allowing priests to marry would end the abuses… we could probably use the abuse in protestant denominations as proof of that.

SD

There is no question marriage in itself cannot completely rid us of abuses. However, in the American RCC 12% of the priests here have been shown to have committed sexual abuse (almost exclusively involving the rape of pre-teen boys).

Both the statistical level and nature of these abuses are not found in any other Christian denomination. In fact, I saw a stat making comparisons, and one comes to mind. Among mainline denominations such as Methodist & Presbyterian there were only a few dozen reported cases of abuse (a number translating into a fraction of one percent of their Pastors). Compare this with the RCC numbers.

Sure there are abuses in Protestant churches; but to make a broad comment saying since protestants also have abuses there is nothing inherently different about the RCC in this regard – without looking deeper into the numbers and nature of the abuses is logically fallacious (and that’s putting it mildly).

 

[Cinette]

There is no question marriage in itself cannot completely rid us of abuses. However, in the American RCC 12% of the priests here have been shown to have committed sexual abuse (almost exclusively involving the rape of pre-teen boys).

Both the statistical level and nature of these abuses are not found in any other Christian denomination. In fact, I saw a stat making comparisons, and one comes to mind. Among mainline denominations such as Methodist & Presbyterian there were only a few dozen reported cases of abuse (a number translating into a fraction of one percent of their Pastors). Compare this with the RCC numbers.

Sure there are abuses in Protestant churches; but to make a broad comment saying since protestants also have abuses there is nothing inherently different about the RCC in this regard – without looking deeper into the numbers and nature of the abuses is logically fallacious (and that’s putting it mildly).

Ouch 12% is a very high figure. Where did you get this information?

So are you saying that this type of abuse is prevalent in the Catholic Church? Why would that be?

 

[catholiconce]

Ouch 12% is a very high figure. Where did you get this information?

So are you saying that this type of abuse is prevalent in the Catholic Church? Why would that be?

I heard the same figures on EWTN RADIO. the numbers are alaming.

 

[Peter_J]

There was an article several years ago in America about why, given the fact that the Latin Catholic Church does not ordain married men, she also should not ordain men with same-sex attraction. In particular:

People with homosexual tendencies can live certain aspects of celibacy, but their commitment is significantly different from that of heterosexuals because it compromises two fundamental dimensions of celibacy.

On the one hand, celibacy involves a sacrifice of a good for a greater good. It sacrifices ordered and good inclinations toward spouse and family for the sake of the kingdom. For someone with S.S.A., an act of binding oneself by a vow or promise to abstain from something that one is already bound to avoid by the natural law (attractions toward someone of the same sex) seems superfluous. To avoid doing something (heterosexual acts) that one does not have an inclination to do is not a sacrifice. The struggle to live chastely may be extremely difficult for someone with homosexual tendencies, and these struggles would truly be meritorious and virtuous as acts of chastity, but not necessarily of celibacy.

Likewise, the spousal dimension of celibacy seems unclear for those with S.S.A… Celibacy is a way of living the spousal character of Christ’s relationship with his bride, the church. Through the celibate life, the priest redirects his sexual attraction to the opposite sex toward another “body,” the church, which is a “bride” in a complementary spousal relationship. He exercises a spiritual fatherhood and lives a supernatural spousal relationship as a sign to the church of Christ’s love for her. Someone afflicted with S.S.A. cannot redirect his inclination toward a complementary “other” in a spousal relationship, because homosexuality has disordered his sexual attraction toward the opposite sex. It then becomes difficult to be genuinely a sign of Christ’s spousal love for the church.

If it can be said that a man with homosexual tendencies can live a celibate life, at the very least it is lacking some important elements due to S.S.A., and it could be another reason to conclude that there exists a prudent doubt as to his suitability for holy orders.

(Please note that I’m not expressing agreement or disagreement with the article as a whole. I don’t want to get into an argument about whether its conservative views are correct or not.)

Aside from those reasons on principle, I also want to point out that if priestly celibacy is mandatory and there isn’t a ban on ordaining men with same-sex attraction, the inevitable consequence is that men with SSA with be over-represented in the priesthood as compared with the general population. This is by no means the only factor that has contributed to the sexual abuse scandals, but I believe it has been one significant factor.

 

[SD_Catholic]

There is no question of “allowing priests to marry”. If someone is unmarried at the time of ordination (even diaconal ordination) he is not allowed to marry later on.

The only question is whether to ordain married men. The Eastern Catholic Churches do. The Latin (Western) Catholic Church doesn’t, with the occasional exception of a Lutheran or Anglican minister converting to Catholicism.

(Hence if the celibacy rule was altered, it wouldn’t in any way affect the celibacy of existing Catholic priests.)

I guess I wasn’t questioning anything… I was only commenting on what I assumed sola-scriptura was thinking should happen… perhaps they didn’t mean current priests either but only future priests should be allowed… I have a feeling the church is much more careful now when choosing priests to help avoid these things… and if they did happen that they would be dealt with immediately…

I’m afraid this is quite off topic from the OP

SD

 

[SD_Catholic]

There is no question marriage in itself cannot completely rid us of abuses. However, in the American RCC 12% of the priests here have been shown to have committed sexual abuse (almost exclusively involving the rape of pre-teen boys).

Both the statistical level and nature of these abuses are not found in any other Christian denomination. In fact, I saw a stat making comparisons, and one comes to mind. Among mainline denominations such as Methodist & Presbyterian there were only a few dozen reported cases of abuse (a number translating into a fraction of one percent of their Pastors). Compare this with the RCC numbers.

Sure there are abuses in Protestant churches; but to make a broad comment saying since protestants also have abuses there is nothing inherently different about the RCC in this regard – without looking deeper into the numbers and nature of the abuses is logically fallacious (and that’s putting it mildly).

I won’t deny your numbers since I have no proof nor do I think we should continue with this off topic subject (unless you want to start a new thread), but they do sound higher than anything I’ve ever heard before … but I will restate what I said before… these men have made a vow to God to be celibate, not only have the “guilty” ones broken this vow but they may have also commited sins that we can probably only imagine… now if these men are not willing to keep their promises to God I’m afraid that if they had wives we would just be adding to the list of victims… I betcha adultery is much higher among protestant pastors

This is an interesting topic, but I think we best leave it alone on this thread or start a new one

SD

 

[sola_scriptura]

I won’t deny your numbers since I have no proof nor do I think we should continue with this off topic subject (unless you want to start a new thread), but they do sound higher than anything I’ve ever heard before … but I will restate what I said before… these men have made a vow to God to be celibate, not only have the “guilty” ones broken this vow but they may have also commited sins that we can probably only imagine… now if these men are not willing to keep their promises to God I’m afraid that if they had wives we would just be adding to the list of victims… I betcha adultery is much higher among protestant pastors

This is an interesting topic, but I think we best leave it alone on this thread or start a new one

SD

Fair enough (I actually posted these stats in response to a post). Frankly, not a topic I’m really all that comfortable discussing. I concede I’m sort of a theology and history nerd & this isn’t the sort of thing that I would usually begin a thread on …

That being said it is obviously an important topic for not only the church, but society at large. Pedophilia (whether by a priest or whoever) is a real test of our ability to forgive. Most of us (I’ll venture a guess all of us) here are not Amish (who are the most forgiving people I can think of) – so our first reaction might be to find the nearest tree and hang em high.

Such acts are always the work of the devil – but God somehow even twists evil into good. It’s hard to see how or why sometimes; but in this case the lesson is forgiveness (but also a pragmatic one – like how to make sure it doesn’t happen again).

 

[mikew262]

This is how I feel about the celibacy requirement… The man agrees to that life style when he chooses to become a priest… he makes a vow to God to live a celibate life… if he can’t keep that vow to God why should we believe he would keep any other vow? There’s no guarantee that allowing priests to marry would end the abuses… we could probably use the abuse in protestant denominations as proof of that.

SD

I think priests should be allowed to marry, if they so desire. There is no sound reason not too. However, I agree with you that allowing priests to marry will not necessarily stop the abuses. I think priests (or anybody else) who have these issues have problems that go a lot deeper than being able to marry or not.

 

[Cinette]

I think priests should be allowed to marry, if they so desire. There is no sound reason not too. However, I agree with you that allowing priests to marry will not necessarily stop the abuses. I think priests (or anybody else) who have these issues have problems that go a lot deeper than being able to marry or not.

I do believe that they are doing rigid tests in the seminaries to try to identify potential problems.

I believe insofar as homosexual priests are concerned they are not a problem per se. They can also be celibate. Look at Neuwan what a tragedy it would have been had he been denied the priesthood.

Paedophiles are SICK and I think they have been abused themselves as children. There have always been the like but I wouldn’t be surprised if they are also a product of our times. The sex revolution, the laissez faire attitude, I’m OK you’re OK…

 

[cazayoux]

I think priests should be allowed to marry, if they so desire. There is no sound reason not too. However, I agree with you that allowing priests to marry will not necessarily stop the abuses. I think priests (or anybody else) who have these issues have problems that go a lot deeper than being able to marry or not.

A priest will never be allowed to marry.
What could be allowed in the future would be for a married man to become a priest.

After ordination (holy orders), one is not allowed to receive matrimony.

We wee this applied to our deacons.
If a man is already a deacon, he would not be allowed marriage.
However, a married man can become a deacon.
If he then widows, cannot marry again.

We see this exact thing in the eastern churches for priests, actually.

I’m guessing that ordination is seen as a ‘higher’ sacrament than ‘matrimony’.
Maybe that’s not the right way to phrase it.

Cheers!
michel

 

[mikew262]

A priest will never be allowed to marry.
What could be allowed in the future would be for a married man to become a priest.

Oh, I think you’ll eventually see it, maybe not for awhile, but I think it will happen. There is no sound reason for it not to happen, scriptural or otherwise, except it’s the way we’ve always done it.

I think the priest shortage will eventually dictate it.

 

[Peter_J]

mikew262,

I readily concede that the shortage of Catholic priests in related to celibacy requirement. However, if that ban were relaxed and married men were ordained (leaving aside the question of various degrees of “relaxing”), I think that would be quite sufficient to deal with the shortage.

Think about it this way: suppose the policy were that priests had to either be married prior to ordination, or else remain celibate (as is the case in the Eastern Catholic and Orthodox Churches). Now according to you, there would still be a priest shortage because many men would be saying, “Well, I’d like to be a married priest, and I’m ready to be a priest, but I’m not ready to get married yet.” Well then naturally such a person will still want to be a priest later on, when he is ready to get married. No?

 

[mikew262]

mikew262,

I readily concede that the shortage of Catholic priests in related to celibacy requirement. However, if that ban were relaxed and married men were ordained (leaving aside the question of various degrees of “relaxing”), I think that would be quite sufficient to deal with the shortage.

Think about it this way: suppose the policy were that priests had to either be married prior to ordination, or else remain celibate (as is the case in the Eastern Catholic and Orthodox Churches). Now according to you, there would still be a priest shortage because many men would be saying, “Well, I’d like to be a married priest, and I’m ready to be a priest, but I’m not ready to get married yet.” Well then naturally such a person will still want to be a priest later on, when he is ready to get married. No?

I have no argument with anything you said. I think your 1st paragraph is a very good idea and possibly a good compromise solution.

 

[Peter_J]

I have no argument with anything you said. I think your 1st paragraph is a very good idea and possibly a good compromise solution.

Excellent. (I find it a little strange that you call it a “compromise”, as though it were derivative when in fact it’s just the ancient tradition of the Church. But I don’t want to nit-pick. )

 

[BushPilot]

You are right technically, and I am sure that Catholics by and large are less in your face at church than other Christians, if I was to skate by as a fairly politically moderate person but also adhere to church doctrine I am sure most people wouldn’t know the difference or find out… But just knowing that so many people are strictly adherent and intolerant of exceptions it makes me feel inherently guilty about things which I conscientiously believe which may not conflict in some cases, but may also not be generally acceptable.

My main concern is the amount of political manipulation that is supported or fostered by the church. My three main objections are:

1. Being told who or what to vote for.
2. Being told what I can and cannot do.
3. Rejecting people for secular political reasons as a means of making a political statement.

Personally I think there is nothing wrong with the church defending life, enforcing the doctrine against contraception and sexual relations (homosexual or straight) outside of marriage to it’s parishioners. But when the Church steps outside of it’s doors, and foists those regulations onto people or into politics who/which are not catholic, I cannot in good conscience support that. It’s one thing to rule your own, it’s another to try to rule the world which does not choose to belong to you.

The only exception I will make to that is the fight against abortion, but even for Catholics this reaches into contraception and safe sex, which in good faith I cannot support as a doctrine for all of humanity on a legal basis. If abortion was illegalized, it would never be enough for the Church. They would then move to illegalize contraception due to their beliefs. I couldn’t get behind that, while I myself would not use contraception and adhere to the doctrine, it does not seem righteous to me to make it illegal across the board or to shove it down non-religious people’s throats.

I personally am not the kind of person who would throw the baby out with the bathwater entirely. I wouldn’t condemn the Church or any entity just because I found one or two rotten apples (people). And you are right about persecution, but I think there is always a level of that going back out again at the rest of the world. Two wrongs don’t make a right as my Dad always said.

I have sort of pretended, but you are right I can’t until I can.

I am still learning, and I have my own personal habit of speaking loudly when I should very well just shut up.