Protestants honest question about Mary

[bookgirl32]

I just looked at the link and the other site you mentioned. I don’t even know what to say. Those sites are actually put out there by a church?

. . . and nobody hates Ireland, not anyone in their right mind anyway .

 

[DerekD]

What makes it so interesting coming from a Catholic? I’m interested in the word “fed”. I understand where you’re going with it. I’m just wondering why you chose that particular word.

The word poimainō & boskō are used in John 21; which gives the clearest instruction from the Lord as to the duty of a pastor. Boskō means to feed; portraying the duty of a Christian teacher to promote in every way the spiritual welfare of the members of the church, which is primarily done through the Word of God. His role is to comfort, encourage, and give the Word of God for Spiritual nurishment. Poimainō is more broad and is used for “shepherd” and covers more in scope of these duties:
to rule, govern

1. of rulers
2. to furnish pasture for food
3. to nourish
4. to cherish one’s body, to serve the body
5. to supply the requisites for the soul’s need

In John 14 and in other places, Jesus elaborates and really puts emphasis that we need to eat and feed on Him and He is the living water which quenches the soul. Catholics take a different view of the feeding and eating of Christ by putting it into the physical realm that which is clearly meant in the spiritual realm; rather disappointing and because of this; I believe Catholics miss the surpassing beaty of the Lords care for us…tend My lambs & feed my sheep; I am the good shepherd, whoever drinks the water I give will never thirst…how wonderful to know the Lord loves me this much.

 

[DerekD]

And I debunked that myth in Post #62. Nowhere in ALL of scripture are those kinsfolk of Jesus reported to be the children of Mary. NOWHERE.
**If you DID **prove it - please point me to the post.

YOUR turn.

The Bible could say Mary and Joseph conceived a child the second year after giving birth to Jesus and you would still cling to you ficticious Mary.

There are two specific passages in Scripture, which you would have to do a great bit of twisting or manipulation to maintain your position; no that is not true either you would have to show the immaculate and perpetuale virginity, but that is not implied anywhere…is it? Catholics are smart they empbrace the negatives which cannot be proven; for example we know that the Bible nowhere says a letter about immaculate conception, which would be important for a Christian know, so you invented it and say prove it is NOT there; well we can’t prove a negative…can we?

Acts 1 the emphasis is on the Mary and His brothers:
Ac 1:14 These all with one mind were continually devoting themselves to prayer, along with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with His brothers. Looking at the context, which are versus 12 thru 14; the only two conclusion you can drawl, they are is “real” brothers or His “real” cousins. It cannot be brethern because the rest were previously named and the emphasis is place and Mary, then mother of Jesus and His brothers. Since the word for cousin is not used, then the bible is in error or you are.

John 7 3 Therefore His brothers said to Him, "Leave here and go into Judea, so that Your disciples also may see Your works which You are doing. 4 “For no one does anything in secret when he himself seeks to be {known} publicly. If You do these things, show Yourself to the world.” 5*** For not even His brothers were believing in Him.***

Here again you have but one choice; cousin or blood brother? Cannot be “brethren” because they are “unbelievers”. In the blue his unbelieving brothers are mocking Him. Since the word for cousin is not used, themn any rational mind can reach one conclusion, He had siblings. How to you manipulate the Scripture to adhere to your ficticious Mary?

Here is the only place that I know of in the NT that uses the Greek term for cousin.
Col 4:10 Aristarchus, my fellow prisoner, sends you his greetings; and {also} Barnabas’s cousin Mark (about whom you received instructions; if he comes to you, welcome him);

It is a simple term with a simple meaning and if Jesus brothers were “cousins”, then the HS would have used this term:
anepsios - “a cousin”

As I said and will clarify for the other poster; Elvis is a defender, not a believer AISI (as i see it)

 

[JonNC]

And I agree, Jharek, particularly with the last sentence. It is often pointed out, and for good reason, that the reformers accepted the Blessed Virgin’s perpetual virginity, when given their relationship with Rome, they had every reason to dispute it.

Jon

 

[DerekD]

I did not see that God hates a particular country as much as I saw God hates religions of idoltry, which God does hate. Therefore the real question would be are they correct about the religion itself? I can’t say because I do not know, but even if it is a religion of idoltry I would guess God still has a few who see past all of that and see Him as He has revealed Himself.

I do not know enough about these people only to say that their methods are very rough. i do not defend nor condemn; i don’t know enough.

 

[DerekD]

Oh no, those Westboro people have it all wrong. They are hatemongers, period. Whatever they once knew about the Lord and the Bible has been skewed by hate and bigotry. It pains me that they use the term “Baptist” in their name.

And you need not be concerned for me or my family. I know God, my children know God, we read the Bible and pray to the Lord and whether we worship in the Baptist church, the CC, or both we are worshipping the same Lord. Doctrine is different in every type of church, but what matters most is having Jesus in our hearts. And He is in ours.

You are angry because I said they were correct; yet you do not know what I actually read. What I read they were Scripturally correct and yes they have a very rough and tough way of putting things and I would not be involved with them. But even in a group like that, god still works with one heart at a time; so we cannot put a blanket over them; that is all I am and have continued to say.

You are incorrect in your implication that doctrine does not matter andthe only thing is Jesus in your heart. With the wrong doctrine; many are self deceived into believing they have Jesus in their heart. it is only by the correct doctrine that Jesus will unveil Himself to a person, so doctrine matters a bunch. Now I have even greater concern and will be praying for you and your family as I send this.

God bless

 

[DerekD]

Believers ARE defenders.

1Peter3:15 *“Always be ready to give a defense to anyone who calls you to account for the hope that is within you, but do it with reverence and humility and keep your conscience clear.” *

IF you add up all the people that are called Jesus’ brothers and sisters, then Mary would have had to have been perpetually pregnant instead of a perpetual virgin. The “brothers” and “sisters” of Christ mentioned in the Bible are most likely his cousins or close relatives.
CC

Don’t be so ignorant of Scripture. I have shown their is a specific word used in the NT for cousin and the word brother can be used in reference to a biological brother or a Christian brother. I have shown two passages where the term for brother cannot refer to brothers in Christ, which leaves one onther possibility, He had real siblings as Scripture explicitly says.

 

[DerekD]

Get help

 

[DerekD]

That is easily explained, you have chosen religion over God. You have exercised your free-will.

 

[crazzeto]

Don’t be so ignorant of Scripture. I have shown their is a specific word used in the NT for cousin and the word brother can be used in reference to a biological brother or a Christian brother. I have shown two passages where the term for brother cannot refer to brothers in Christ, which leaves one onther possibility, He had real siblings as Scripture explicitly says.

There is no such specific word in Hebrew.

Edit
BTW - Could you then explain John Ch 19? I posted my comments a while ago, please search the thread. Regarding Christ putting Mary in to the Care of John.

 

[elvisman]

The Bible could say Mary and Joseph conceived a child the second year after giving birth to Jesus and you would still cling to you ficticious Mary.

There are two specific passages in Scripture, which you would have to do a great bit of twisting or manipulation to maintain your position; no that is not true either you would have to show the immaculate and perpetuale virginity, but that is not implied anywhere…is it? Catholics are smart they empbrace the negatives which cannot be proven; for example we know that the Bible nowhere says a letter about immaculate conception, which would be important for a Christian know, so you invented it and say prove it is NOT there; well we can’t prove a negative…can we?

Acts 1 the emphasis is on the Mary and His brothers:
Ac 1:14 These all with one mind were continually devoting themselves to prayer, along with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with His brothers. Looking at the context, which are versus 12 thru 14; the only two conclusion you can drawl, they are is “real” brothers or His “real” cousins. It cannot be brethern because the rest were previously named and the emphasis is place and Mary, then mother of Jesus and His brothers. Since the word for cousin is not used, then the bible is in error or you are.

John 7 3 Therefore His brothers said to Him, "Leave here and go into Judea, so that Your disciples also may see Your works which You are doing. 4 “For no one does anything in secret when he himself seeks to be {known} publicly. If You do these things, show Yourself to the world.” 5*** For not even His brothers were believing in Him.***

Here again you have but one choice; cousin or blood brother? Cannot be “brethren” because they are “unbelievers”. In the blue his unbelieving brothers are mocking Him. Since the word for cousin is not used, themn any rational mind can reach one conclusion, He had siblings. How to you manipulate the Scripture to adhere to your ficticious Mary?

Here is the only place that I know of in the NT that uses the Greek term for cousin.
Col 4:10 Aristarchus, my fellow prisoner, sends you his greetings; and {also} Barnabas’s cousin Mark (about whom you received instructions; if he comes to you, welcome him);

It is a simple term with a simple meaning and if Jesus brothers were “cousins”, then the HS would have used this term:
anepsios - “a cousin”

As I said and will clarify for the other poster; Elvis is a defender, not a believer AISI (as i see it)

There is no need for twisting the Scriptures – as you have done (2 Pet. 3:16). We’ll just look at the facts:

---

Luke 1:34** shows Mary’s intention to remain a virgin:* Then Mary said to the angel, “How can this be, since I do not* know a man?”
Mary was a betrothed girl who knew about marital relations. She didn’t say “How can this be, since I have not known a man?” She said “How can this be, since I do not know a man?”
She was stating her intention to remain a virgin and was puzzled by Gabriel’s announcement that she was to have a child. She knew that God was aware of her intentions. Her bewilderment and the words “I do not know”, as opposed to ”I have not known”, is clear evidence that she had no intention of having marital relations.**

 

[elvisman]

Continued . . .

The Bible could say Mary and Joseph conceived a child the second year after giving birth to Jesus and you would still cling to you ficticious Mary.

Col** 4:10 uses the Greek word for cousin (Anepsios) because it IS speaking of Barnabas’s cousin, Mark.**
The “brothers” of Jesus probably have included cousins, kinsman, neighbors or even countryman as the Aramaic word for brother, (Ach) allows because the Aramaic has no word for “cousin”. The Septuagint use of the Greek word for “brother” (Adelphos), shows us that this word was used for kinsman – NOT just uterine brothers.

You bring up Acts 1:14 where is speaks of the brothers of Jesus – but you leave out the next verse (15), where it says:
“During those days Peter stood up in the midst of the brothers (there was a group of about one hundred and twenty persons in the one place).”

Are you telling me that Mary had 120 sons?? Is that what you’re saying?
Nobody** in the recorded history if the world has EVER had 120 sons. Here, the word, Adelphos is speaking of his kinsman as well as fellow believers.**

**Finally – NONE of these verses say that these were children of Mary. In fact – the only ones names as the brothers of Jesus in Scripture – as I already pointed out in my last post – were children of the other Mary at the foot of the cross. She is identified as Mary’s sister (Adelphe). **
Since it is impossible for Mary to have had a sister named Mary (Jews don’t name their children after living relatives – only the dead), we can surmise that this “Adelphe” was a kinswoman of Mary.

Finally - your last sentence is very telling:
"As I said and will clarify for the other poster; Elvis is a defender, not a believer AISI (as i see it)"
This is the tragedy of Protestantism - "As I see it."
You refuse to see it as God sees it.

Speaking of Protestantism, the idea of Mary’s perpetual virginity is one that was held by the early Protestant Reformers. Men like Martin Luther, John Calvin and Ulrich Zwingli ALL held Mary in high regard venerated her as a sinless perpetual virgin.

Ummm . . . were THEY all wrong??

YOUR** turn.**

 

[Daedelus76]

As somebody who attends Anglican churches mostly (ex-Episcopalian congregations), I don’t find Marian doctrines in Catholicism at all wrong, though I do have issue with many of them made dogmas.

 

[JonNC]

As somebody who attends Anglican churches mostly (ex-Episcopalian congregations), I don’t find Marian doctrines in Catholicism at all wrong, though I do have issue with many of them made dogmas.

Jon

 

[sckcd]

You are angry because I said they were correct; yet you do not know what I actually read. What I read they were Scripturally correct and yes they have a very rough and tough way of putting things and I would not be involved with them. But even in a group like that, god still works with one heart at a time; so we cannot put a blanket over them; that is all I am and have continued to say.

You are incorrect in your implication that doctrine does not matter andthe only thing is Jesus in your heart. With the wrong doctrine; many are self deceived into believing they have Jesus in their heart. it is only by the correct doctrine that Jesus will unveil Himself to a person, so doctrine matters a bunch. Now I have even greater concern and will be praying for you and your family as I send this.

God bless

I am not angry, I was just stating the facts. They are hateful and mean and that is not what Christianity stands for. Jesus said to love thy neighbor. WBC is not scripturally correct there at all. I don’t think it is God that is working in that group at all.

I will not be deceived of having Jesus in my heart, I know He is there and no matter where I worship, I will know that. It’s not something you believe because someone tells you; you feel it. I don’t need your prayers, thanks anyway.

 

[bookgirl32]

I am not angry, I was just stating the facts. They are hateful and mean and that is not what Christianity stands for. Jesus said to love thy neighbor. WBC is not scripturally correct there at all. I don’t think it is God that is working in that group at all.

I will not be deceived of having Jesus in my heart, I know He is there and no matter where I worship, I will know that. It’s not something you believe because someone tells you; you feel it. I don’t need your prayers, thanks anyway.

sckcd – I just wanted to commend you on being a united family front while you figure out what Church to belong to. For the first twelve years of my life my father never attended Mass with us (except on Christmas). And that’s okay, it didn’t hurt me in anyway. He did, however, convert when I was thirteen (my mom never pushed him, he took his time), and it made such a difference to be a family at Mass. I’m sure your kids really appreciate it!

 

[DerekD]

There is no such specific word in Hebrew.

Edit
BTW - Could you then explain John Ch 19? I posted my comments a while ago, please search the thread. Regarding Christ putting Mary in to the Care of John.

Jesus says, Who is My Mother? Who are My brethren? Then He said, Even he that doeth the will of the Father, the same is My father, mother, brother, sister.

The point is this, when Jesus began His earthly ministry; moving to the cross, all carnal human relationships were cut off and everybody in now on the basis of a disciple, one’s who needed to be healed from sin and its consequences; this applies to Mary as well.

It’s interesting what Paul says 2 Corinthians 5:16-17 16 Therefore from now on we recognize no one according to the flesh; even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know {Him} {in this way} no longer. 17 Therefore if anyone is in Christ, {he is} a new creature; (a spiritual creation)

In other words after the resurrection, there was no longer a fleshly relationship that really mattered; it is a spiritual one, and Mary is no exception.

In John 7 it says, Therefore His brothers said to Him, “Leave here and go into Judea, so that Your disciples also may see Your works which You are doing.” Then in verse 5 “For not even His brothers were believing in Him.” The Bible even names His brothers elsewhere in the Word of God. Jesus had biological brothers. Mary was not a perpetual virgin; she was not virgin born; she was just a woman called for a very special purpose.

Therefore, Jesus could not turn Mary over to His own brothers because they did not believe in Him, which must have been additional grief to the heart of Mary. The good news is when you get over into Acts l:l4, look at what happened to His earthly family. “These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with His brothers.” By the time you get to the book of Acts, the whole family has become disciples of Jesus Christ.

Coming back to the cross: At the point of the cross Jesus commits Mary in the tender, loving care of John because He knows that she will be alone and because His brothers do not yet believe and because John is the only disciple at the scene; maybe for this very reason. You have here a picture of the kind of love that is divine.

 

[DerekD]

There is no need for twisting the Scriptures – as you have done (2 Pet. 3:16). We’ll just look at the facts:

---

Luke 1:34** shows Mary’s intention to remain a virgin:* Then Mary said to the angel, “How can this be, since I do not*** know a man?”
Mary was a betrothed girl who knew about marital relations. She didn’t say “How can this be, since I have not known a man?” She said “How can this be, since I do not know a man?”
She was stating her intention to remain a virgin and was puzzled by Gabriel’s announcement that she was to have a child. She knew that God was aware of her intentions. Her bewilderment and the words “I do not know”, as opposed to ”I have not known”, is clear evidence that she had no intention of having marital relations.

You made a false accusation saying I manipulated the Scripture; prove it and show it or admit you are wrong and repent with humility. You show me on the two primary verses on the previous post how I manipulated the Scripture, which is a sin.

You said "“How can this be, since I do not know a man?” this shows her intent to remain a virgin; you can’t be that foolish can you? It shows she can’t believe she could be pregnant since she has yet to be with a man.

You know you are defeated on this point; not because of what I say, but because what the word of God palinly states; therefore you resort to lies about me and misrepresentation of Scripture. Sad coming from a “Christian”??

 

[DerekD]

Continued . . .

Col** 4:10** uses the Greek word for cousin (Anepsios) because it IS speaking of Barnabas’s cousin, Mark.
The “brothers” of Jesus probably have included cousins, kinsman, neighbors or even countryman as the Aramaic word for brother, (Ach) allows because the Aramaic has no word for “cousin”. The Septuagint use of the Greek word for “brother” (Adelphos), shows us that this word was used for kinsman – NOT just uterine brothers.

You bring up Acts 1:14 where is speaks of the brothers of Jesus – but you leave out the next verse (15), where it says:
“During those days Peter stood up in the midst of the brothers (there was a group of about one hundred and twenty persons in the one place).”

Are you telling me that Mary had 120 sons?? Is that what you’re saying?
Nobody** in the recorded history if the world has EVER** had 120 sons. Here, the word, Adelphos is speaking of his kinsman as well as fellow believers.

Finally – NONE of these verses say that these were children of Mary. In fact – the only ones names as the brothers of Jesus in Scripture – as I already pointed out in my last post – were children of the other Mary at the foot of the cross. She is identified as Mary’s sister (Adelphe).
Since it is impossible for Mary to have had a sister named Mary (Jews don’t name their children after living relatives – only the dead), we can surmise that this “Adelphe” was a kinswoman of Mary.

Finally - your last sentence is very telling:
"As I said and will clarify for the other poster; Elvis is a defender, not a believer AISI (as i see it)"
This is the tragedy of Protestantism - "As I see it."
You refuse to see it as God sees it.

Speaking of Protestantism, the idea of Mary’s perpetual virginity is one that was held by the early Protestant Reformers. Men like Martin Luther, John Calvin and Ulrich Zwingli ALL held Mary in high regard venerated her as a sinless perpetual virgin.

Ummm . . . were THEY all wrong??

YOUR** turn.**

Lets see, Mary had Jesus, Jesus had brother and sisters, then Mary gave birth to more than 1 child or else Joseph gave birth.

You foolish aregument on Acts should be an embarrassment to you; as you are so ignorant of Scripture that you are unable to distinquish a biological reference to a disciple reference. What was even more embarrassing was the comical use of cousin, to say the passage used “cousin” because they were “cousins”…duhh

Which is why when the word brother is used in reference to His brothers, the passages use the word brother to mean what “brother”. Isn’t that something? You cannot dismiss John 7 and just make it evaporate. Are you in glenn Beck’s new book? Just kidding.

I hope the other poster now can see that you are indeed a defender and not a believer; you have proven the point in very comical fashion. Miracles happen everyday; might God bless you!

 

[DerekD]

You are correct about traditions and/or rituals having a place in Christianity, but the problem comes into being when tradition defines scripture and moves out of bounds as it was with the religion of the Pharisees for which Jesus condemned. You see it is Scripture that defines rituals as being Biblical or not; not the other way around; otherwise anything goes and we see very clearly throughout history up until now that it does.

If you feel like I am judging you, then perhaps it is conviction because I do not mix words when it comes to the word of God; neither Jesus nor the the disciples did and I am a disciple; what are you? Where does judgment start according to Scripture? I don’t just through stuff out there without the merit of the Word behind it; as is the custom with many; especially those that do not stand on the truth of the word of God.

You have heard of loosing and binding or forbid or permit? Do you know that pertains to all Christians; it is not condemnation; it is a strict warning that says you have rejected the gospel and unless you change & repent you will be in hell or the other way around as well. Some are falsely taught that it pertains to only the apostles or spiritual overseers, but that is not what God taught us.