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JoeyWarren
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Lutheran Rosary?
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Titus03
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Why was Mary never mentioned in the NT outside of the gospels? Save for one section where she is mentioned in passing, but it is only mentioning that she was in good health and good spirits and all that. If she was such a prominent figure in bringing us to Christ, why was such not mentioned in the NT? Would not Paul have wanted to honor Mary as much as possible, while she was still on the Earth? How about the 12 disciples? Would they not have wanted to honor her and learn from her?
It was said that I was blashphemous in saying that Jesus wasn’t completely God. Well, I will not argue that He was fully divine and fully human, but he was separate from God. He said Himself that only God knew when the Son would return, the Son himself did not know. So, obviously, there is a separation between the Son and the Father. Explain to me how he can be God himself, yet not know when He would return? It is a hard topic to go in to, but ponder it.
So, that being said, I use it to make the point that Mary was not the Mother of God. She was the earthly mother of God’s Son. If anything, that would make her God’s wife. Hm?
And from what I’ve studied in the Catholic catechism and catholic sites around the net, the Church does declare that she was born without sin, but also that she remained sinless, and thus did not have to face death, but was assumed into Heaven, like Enoch.
Ok, someone made the point why can I believe Enoch was taken into Heaven but not Mary? Well, there is no scriptural evidence, at all, saying she was taken up into heaven. I mean, thats the kind of thing you might mention, at least in passing, in a letter to one of the early churches. Ya know? Maybe a little, “Hey guys, Mary was taken up into heaven today, that should strengthen you about our Savior and His power. So, Ephesus, heard you got some problems?”
It was said that I was blashphemous in saying that Jesus wasn’t completely God. Well, I will not argue that He was fully divine and fully human, but he was separate from God. He said Himself that only God knew when the Son would return, the Son himself did not know. So, obviously, there is a separation between the Son and the Father. Explain to me how he can be God himself, yet not know when He would return? It is a hard topic to go in to, but ponder it.
So, that being said, I use it to make the point that Mary was not the Mother of God. She was the earthly mother of God’s Son. If anything, that would make her God’s wife. Hm?
And from what I’ve studied in the Catholic catechism and catholic sites around the net, the Church does declare that she was born without sin, but also that she remained sinless, and thus did not have to face death, but was assumed into Heaven, like Enoch.
Ok, someone made the point why can I believe Enoch was taken into Heaven but not Mary? Well, there is no scriptural evidence, at all, saying she was taken up into heaven. I mean, thats the kind of thing you might mention, at least in passing, in a letter to one of the early churches. Ya know? Maybe a little, “Hey guys, Mary was taken up into heaven today, that should strengthen you about our Savior and His power. So, Ephesus, heard you got some problems?”
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jmcrae
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The New Testament isn’t the only thing ever written during Apostolic times, nor is it the only thing the Apostles ever wrote - and even so, there is quite a bit of material about Mary in it, anyway.
There are also a great many other early writings and early sermons about Mary from the Apostolic era, and shortly afterwards, that go into quite a lot of detail about her life, her sayings, her acts, and the praises that were given to her by all in the community around her. The “Hail Mary” prayer is even inscribed in the Catacombs, much as today in some churches they put up a screen to display the songs to sing - it’s clear that they were praying the Hail Mary prayer in the catacombs when they went there for worship, and that some people were reading along with the “cheat graffitti” - we have been praying to Mary right from the very beginning; this was not a medieval invention, or anything like that.
So, did Mary give birth to a dead body which was later infused by God’s spirit? Or how do you imagine that Mary managed to give birth to Jesus without also giving birth to the Second Person of the Trinity, God? (And by the way, one of her Catholic titles is, in fact, “Spouse of the Holy Spirit.”
)John writes about this incident in the 11 and 12th chapter of the Book of Revelation - he alludes to it obliquely, but it’s pretty obvious who he’s talking about. Not too many people gave birth to a Saviour and then had to run away to Egypt in the wilderness for a time and half a time to escape from “that devil,” Herod, who wanted to kill her baby because of his jealousy.
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lak611
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LilyM
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First of all there ARE apocryphal writings (ie not canonical) that are entirely devoted to Mary - heck, there are apocryphal writings about Joseph, Pontius Pilate, most of the Apostles. There was an awful lot of writing going on, but not all of it made it into the Bible.
Secondly - what on earth makes you think we possess every word that was ever written about Mary (or Christ for that matter?)
The Church was persecuted for 3 centuries - you think writings weren’t hidden and lost, or deliberately destroyed? The Dead Sea Scrolls were hidden and not found again for 19 odd centuries! There could be any amount of writings out there!
But we DO know that at the Council of Ephesus (4th century) when Mary was officially declared Mother of God - the ordinary folks of the town were so happy that they celebrated in the streets! It affirmed what they all had been taught from Apostolic times (not some new made-up invention) about Christ’s nature, and the enormous respect for Mary which resulted from it.
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Montalban
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Adam was sinless for a good part of his life, without having been saved in anticipation by Jesus.
What you do by this error is to make Mary’s life one where it was impossible for her to sin. It’s kind of like the Protestant ‘once-you’re-saved-you’re-saved’ device.
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LilyM
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Says who that it was ‘for a good part of his life’, says where???
And no, we’re not saying anything like OSAS for Mary. She was just created in a pure state, like Adam and Eve before the fall, and unlike the rest of us after the fall. She still had temptation and capability to sin, just as they did, she co-operated utterly with God’s grace and* didn’t*, (easier for her than for the rest of us), that’s all.
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Eden
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She* is* the Mother of God. Period. In Luke 1:43, Elizabeth refers to Mary as “the Mother of my Lord”. The word in the original Greek that was used here is “adonai” which means “Lord God”. In other words, Elizabeth refers to Mary as the Mother of my Lord God in Sacred Scriptures. How can you question the Word of God? Are you saying the Gospel of Luke is not inspired?
Mary was impeccable, not by the essential perfection of her nature, but by a special Divine privilege. Do you deny that the Scriptures say she was “full of grace” (therefore, without sin) at the Annunciation? Being full of grace before Jesus was even born would certainly indicate that Mary was saved by Christ in a unique way, unlike any other. What direct evidence do you have that Mary did not remain sinless? Please do not quote Romans 3:23. (See Misunderstanding About Romans 3:23 here: scripturecatholic.com/blessed_virgin_mary.html#the_bvm-IX ). I’m asking for evidence directly indicating that Mary herself sinned.
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Eden
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It is because of Adam’s sin that we need Salvation. Adam and Eve did not enter the world with original sin on their souls because the original sin had not yet been committed. Salvation was not necessary until the Fall. That was the whole point of the Messiah coming.
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MGEISING
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We honor our Father’s and Mother’s because we are commanded to by God in the commandments … anything less would be sinful.
Mary, the Mother of Our God and our Savior, demands to be honored … and coming from a Mother and Mother Inlaw that are less than Motherly … I thank God for a PERFECT Spiritual Mother … THANK YOU JESUS FOR YOUR MOTHER!
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Eden
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It was Catholic bishops who determined the Canon of the New Testament.
Nothing in scripture indicates what the canon of the New Testament should be, but this silence in no way hindered the Church from exercising the authority given to her by Christ (Matt. 16:15-19, 18:17-18) to decide the canon. Just as the fourth-century Church had authority to determine that twenty-seven books belonged in the New Testament, the nineteenth-century Church had the authority to dogmatically define Mary’s Assumption into heaven.
You can read more here:
catholic.com/thisrock/2001/0105sbs.asp
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Montalban
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I don’t deny that Adam’s sin caused us to need Christ. I simply point out that a person can exist who is sinless, even though they have the potential to sin.
Mary was one. You have it that Mary could not have sinned. We have it that she was sinless, but could have.
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Montalban
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I believe you’ll find that the eastern churches were involved.
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MGEISING
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Try telling this to a Fundamental Baptist … they don’t believe it …
I asked my mother inlaw (who is FB) … Who do you think wrote the contents within the bible … and she said the holy spirit through men … and I said yes, but who approved that those reading where inspired by the Holy Spirit … and when I said the Catholic Church … you would have thought I told her I was having an affair with 10 men …
I do not know what they are taught who approved these writings … does anyone know … any protestants out there that can shed some light on this.
Thanks!
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jmcrae
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The Eastern Churches have always been headed by Catholic Bishops.
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Eden
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In the 4th and 5th centuries we were one Catholic Church - East and West. And the Orthodox have a great devotion to the Blessed Mother. Protestants did not exist at the time that the Canon of the New Testament was set and had no part in the process of determining which books were inspired. They only use that Canon now to create new religions.
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JoeyWarren
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ex-Protestant here. The every day run of the mill Protestant will say stuff like this:
- Christians preserved the scriptures, not Catholics.
- the more rural types say that it actually fell from the sky into a protestant hiding in a cave from the evil Catholic Church. That was actually quoted to me by one of my hillbilliy cousins.
- God has preserved it thru the true church, not that evil Catholic church.
- And if you bring up historical facts, they say Satan wrote all that history.
- Even those that accept history they only accept the fact that the Councils were christian but not Catholic.
just a few to mention.
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havemercy
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At that time, the Eastern Churches were not in schism with the Catholic Church like they are today. The Church was one.
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JesusOnly
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Mary was right. She was blessed.
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Eden
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She said more specifically “generations shall call me blessed”. What does you denomination do to fulfill this passage today? And what denomination is that? Is it one of the religions that denies the Blessed Trinity. I’m just wondering since your screenname implies that.
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