Protestants, how are you certain your sins are forgiven?

[ncgolf]

I found this response to the verse in question at angelfire.com/nt/theology/jn20-19.html.

BECAUSE JESUS HAS RISEN, WE HAVE AUTHORITY FROM ON HIGH

Jesus therefore said to them again, “Peace be with you, as the Father has sent Me, I also send you.”

And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained.” (John 20:21-23). Jesus gave a heavenly authority to His disciples. It was the authority to declare the forgiveness of sins

I have always had translations to the present tense … “sins are forgiven” not “sins have been forgiven”. Interesting also that Jesus breathed on them. The only other place in the Bible where God breathes on someone is when life was given to Adam. Breathing by God is a significant event … a life giving event which in a sense what forgiveness of sins is. To live in sin is to live in death, spiritually speaking.

This is no mere sending out to proclaim a forgiveness message but the actual power to forgive and in a sense restore spiritual lives … all in Christ’s name. That is why the breathing on by Jesus is so important to this passage.

This is not to deny one cannot ask God for forgiveness but rather it is significant that Jesus gave his own authority and power of forgiving sin to the apostles. Just as Jesus forgave sins during many of his physical healing miracles He wanted us to have access to that same grace long after He was physcially gone … it was meant to continue. To deny this fact is to deny one of the greatest gifts the Lord left us.

 

[awantz]

I John 1:9 "If we confess our sins, He (God) is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanes us from ALL unrightousness.

God said it and I believe it and thats good enoght for me.

AMEN

 

[chutton]

Interesting also that Jesus breathed on them. The only other place in the Bible where God breathes on someone is when life was given to Adam. Breathing by God is a significant event … a life giving event which in a sense what forgiveness of sins is. To live in sin is to live in death, spiritually speaking.

The same link angelfire.com/nt/theology/jn20-19.html also had a response regarding Jesus breathing on the disciples…

BECAUSE JESUS HAS RISEN, WE HAVE THE HOLY SPIRIT

And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit.” (John 20:22).

Jesus does not merely give a commission to the disciples and leave it at that. He also gives them the MEANS and the POWER by which to fulfill that commission. This comes through an outside agency. It comes through the Holy Spirit.

Notice how this took place. He “breathed on them.” Literally, He “BLEW on them.” The Greek word used here is the aorist of emphusao. It is used only here in the New Testament. It is also used in the Greek Septuagint, the Greek translation of the Hebrew Bible, in Genesis 2:7 where God was creating the first man.

Then the Lord God formed man of dust from the ground, and BREATHED into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being. (Genesis 2:7).

Just as God once blew into Adam to bring life to a lifeless body, so also Jesus blows His Spirit into those who were once dead in their sins.

This same Greek word is also used by the prophet Ezekiel in his vision of the dry bones. In this vision, Ezekiel sees a great valley filled with the dried bones of those who have died.

Then He said to me, “Prophesy to the breath, prophesy, son of man, and say to the breath, ‘Thus says the Lord God, “Come to the four winds, O breath, and BREATHE on these slain that they may come to life.”’” So I prophesied as He commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they came to life, and stood on their feet, an exceeding great army. (Ezekiel 37:9-10).

In this vision, it is the breath of God upon the bones that causes them to come to life. Now perhaps we can begin to understand the significance of what Jesus does as He appears in the Upper Room with His disciples.

He had once spoken to Nicodemus about the life-giving and life-changing work of the Spirit.

The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit. (John 3:8).

These disciples are going to be different. They will be transformed into a quivering collection of frightened rabbits into a group of embolden men who shall turn the world upside down.

But the work of the Spirit does not end there. The gift of the Holy Spirit was not limited to that small handful of disciples. It is a gift that is given to all of God’s people. If you are a Christian, then you are not alone. God’s Spirit is with you. And He has not retired from the world-changing business.

 

[ncgolf]

The same link angelfire.com/nt/theology/jn20-19.html also had a response regarding Jesus breathing on the disciples…

BECAUSE JESUS HAS RISEN, WE HAVE THE HOLY SPIRIT

And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit.” (John 20:22).

Jesus does not merely give a commission to the disciples and leave it at that. He also gives them the MEANS and the POWER by which to fulfill that commission. This comes through an outside agency. It comes through the Holy Spirit.

Notice how this took place. He “breathed on them.” Literally, He “BLEW on them.” The Greek word used here is the aorist of emphusao. It is used only here in the New Testament. It is also used in the Greek Septuagint, the Greek translation of the Hebrew Bible, in Genesis 2:7 where God was creating the first man.

Then the Lord God formed man of dust from the ground, and BREATHED into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being. (Genesis 2:7).

Just as God once blew into Adam to bring life to a lifeless body, so also Jesus blows His Spirit into those who were once dead in their sins.

This same Greek word is also used by the prophet Ezekiel in his vision of the dry bones. In this vision, Ezekiel sees a great valley filled with the dried bones of those who have died.

Then He said to me, “Prophesy to the breath, prophesy, son of man, and say to the breath, ‘Thus says the Lord God, “Come to the four winds, O breath, and BREATHE on these slain that they may come to life.”’” So I prophesied as He commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they came to life, and stood on their feet, an exceeding great army. (Ezekiel 37:9-10).

In this vision, it is the breath of God upon the bones that causes them to come to life. Now perhaps we can begin to understand the significance of what Jesus does as He appears in the Upper Room with His disciples.

He had once spoken to Nicodemus about the life-giving and life-changing work of the Spirit.

The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit. (John 3:8).

These disciples are going to be different. They will be transformed into a quivering collection of frightened rabbits into a group of embolden men who shall turn the world upside down.

But the work of the Spirit does not end there. The gift of the Holy Spirit was not limited to that small handful of disciples. It is a gift that is given to all of God’s people. If you are a Christian, then you are not alone. God’s Spirit is with you. And He has not retired from the world-changing business.

But I do not have the power to forgive sins other than forgivinng those committed against me. What Jesus gave the disciples was the power to forgive all sins. Some gifts, yes, we both get through the Holy Spirit but not this one. Try to forgive your brothers sin against his wife … you cant do it. A priest … yes can forgive that a sin one commits against others. A huge difference.

 

[awantz]

But I do not have the power to forgive sins other than forgivinng those committed against me. What Jesus gave the disciples was the power to forgive all sins. Some gifts, yes, we both get through the Holy Spirit but not this one. Try to forgive your brothers sin against his wife … you cant do it. A priest … yes can forgive that a sin one commits against others. A huge difference.

God has the power to forgive us all our sins and therefore we don’t have to go to a priest.
The curtain has been torn.

 

[ncgolf]

God has the power to forgive us all our sins and therefore we don’t have to go to a priest.
The curtain has been torn.

No argument on that point but the question remains was that power from God given to the apostles to be used here on earth. Christ forgave sins during his earthly ministry quite often and the Catholic position is that still continues.

No Catholic claims the priest forgives of his own power but only in the name of Christ.

 

[awantz]

No argument on that point but the question remains was that power from God given to the apostles to be used here on earth. Christ forgave sins during his earthly ministry quite often and the Catholic position is that still continues.

No Catholic claims the priest forgives of his own power but only in the name of Christ.

Whether He gave some of His power to the Priest is not for me to decide, but whether the answer to that is yes or no, He will always have the power himself to forgive sins and he does.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

No Catholic claims the priest forgives of his own power but only in the name of Christ.

I believe you here but then why do you guys feel you have to here it from a priest in order to know you have been forgiven?

Manny asked us how do we know and several of us gave scripture where God said we can know we are forgiven if we ask.

So why do you need a human to tell you?

 

[Publisher]

No argument on that point but the question remains was that power from God given to the apostles to be used here on earth. Christ forgave sins during his earthly ministry quite often and the Catholic position is that still continues.

No Catholic claims the priest forgives of his own power but only in the name of Christ.

No. In light of the total understanding of the New Covenant , not a few prooftexted verses, the nature of God and the work of Christ calls me to a conclusion that there is no priesthood system existing within the church that can forgive my sins OR proclaim them forgiven…to have someone other than Christ proclaim my sins are now absolved would hold no meaning for me…I have a High Priest who is able to absolve me…I do not accept a sacrificail priesthood who mediates any grace through “sacraments” or ritual that I cannot access on my own through Christ…I am my own priest in one sense…I have direct access to God…I have access as a priesthood holder to enter into the Holy of Holies into the very Presence of the Living God through Christ…I need rely on no one to dispense grace to me through outward forms…“He is present among His people to teach them Himself.” He is the One Baptizer, the One Priest, the One Author and Perfector of our faith, the One Absolver of sin, and the One Mediator with the Father for us.

 

[awantz]

ALLFORHIM:
I believe you here but then why do you guys feel you have to here it from a priest in order to know you have been forgiven?

Manny asked us how do we know and several of us gave scripture where God said we can know we are forgiven if we ask.

So why do you need a human to tell you?

Exactly.

 

[awantz]

No. In light of the total understanding of the New Covenant , not a few prooftexted verses, the nature of God and the work of Christ calls me to a conclusion that there is no priesthood system existing within the church that can forgive my sins OR proclaim them forgiven…to have someone other than Christ proclaim my sins are now absolved would hold no meaning for me…I have a High Priest who is able to absolve me…I do not accept a sacrificail priesthood who mediates any grace through “sacraments” or ritual that I cannot access on my own through Christ…I am my own priest in one sense…I have direct access to God…I have access as a priesthood holder to enter into the Holy of Holies into the very Presence of the Living God through Christ…I need rely on no one to dispense grace to me through outward forms…“He is present among His people to teach them Himself.” He is the One Baptizer, the One Priest, the One Author and Perfector of our faith, the One Absolver of sin, and the One Mediator with the Father for us.

Good way of explaining it. What you say is so true. I agree with every word you said.

 

[ncgolf]

Whether He gave some of His power to the Priest is not for me to decide, but whether the answer to that is yes or no, He will always have the power himself to forgive sins and he does.

You dont decide it … you discern it. Still the fact remains is Christ’s own words are used to support the Catholic position. Whose sins you forgive are forgive and whose sins you retain are retained. It is not me you doubt but Christ’s own words.

The answer of yes opens other windows. If yes then you must have to wondery why. The question is why would Jesus give that power to some people, obviously not all received it … it had to be vital for the Christian believer that this power exist on earth … in a visible and tangible way.

 

[ncgolf]

No. In light of the total understanding of the New Covenant , not a few prooftexted verses, the nature of God and the work of Christ calls me to a conclusion that there is no priesthood system existing within the church that can forgive my sins OR proclaim them forgiven…to have someone other than Christ proclaim my sins are now absolved would hold no meaning for me…I have a High Priest who is able to absolve me…I do not accept a sacrificail priesthood who mediates any grace through “sacraments” or ritual that I cannot access on my own through Christ…I am my own priest in one sense…I have direct access to God…I have access as a priesthood holder to enter into the Holy of Holies into the very Presence of the Living God through Christ…I need rely on no one to dispense grace to me through outward forms…“He is present among His people to teach them Himself.” He is the One Baptizer, the One Priest, the One Author and Perfector of our faith, the One Absolver of sin, and the One Mediator with the Father for us.

Your comments on the priesthood open another thread … go ahead it will be interesting.

You always are talking in general terms of what the New Testament says … why not Christ’s own words. Christ gives grace as He sees fit through means He designed.

Read the Early Church Fathers for a better historical perspective of something you so easily dismiss.

 

[ncgolf]

I believe you here but then why do you guys feel you have to here it from a priest in order to know you have been forgiven?

Manny asked us how do we know and several of us gave scripture where God said we can know we are forgiven if we ask.

So why do you need a human to tell you?

Exactly.Grace. The human, as you put it, is what we call in persona Chirsto, he acts in the person of Christ. You are forgiven as if Christ himself was there and you are speaking with him. It is up close and personal. For us Catholics, Christ is up close and personal, not only in the Eucharist but in the confessional too.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

Grace. The human, as you put it, is what we call in persona Chirsto, he acts in the person of Christ. You are forgiven as if Christ himself was there and you are speaking with him. It is up close and personal. For us Catholics, Christ is up close and personal, not only in the Eucharist but in the confessional too

See to me that almost sounds like a crutch. Like you need some sort of physical evidence to be there with you in order to have that relationship. IMHO the faith part of it is somewhat lacking. This is only my opinion which means squat of course. But if you need to have the wafer and wine and a Priest to absolve you then where is the faith in Christ and His work on the cross? I know the catholics here Of COURSE will disagree and I expect you too. I just always thought faith was something you believe without seeing,touching, feeling, etc.

I mean no disrespect here just an observation on my part. The whole CC forgivenss depending on a Priest to tell you you are forgiven seems to me that you are not putting enough FAITH in the fact that you can go right to God all on your own and know he forgives you without the middleman.

 

[Publisher]

Your comments on the priesthood open another thread … go ahead it will be interesting.

You always are talking in general terms of what the New Testament says … why not Christ’s own words. Christ gives grace as He sees fit through means He designed.

Read the Early Church Fathers for a better historical perspective of something you so easily dismiss.

I take the New Testament as a whole…not isolated verses used to “proove” a position…the NT as a whole provides me with a glimpse of the work of God in Christ…I am free of the “sacrifical system” of a human representative acting as “priest” for me on my behalf. I now have boldness to approach the Throne of Grace not as a servant but as a child…a member of the royal house.

I do read the ECF, I diagree with them on some issues as does the RCC …not everything the ECF taught is held as “truth”, which is ok, I’m relying on the work of Christ not the ECF take on it.

I hold a more “liberal” view of scripture than you do as I do not see everything attributred to Jesus in the gospels as his very words, but the words of the early Christian community as they came to understand his teachings…John especially is not a…word for word exposition of Christ’s teachings, but what the early Christian community came to understand…example, I don’t believe Jesus of Nazareth really spoke the “I Am” sayings, but the early community came to understand him to be the incarnation of the “I Am”, the GoJ is a religious work, which can be seen in contrast to the synoptics.

Not your view I know, but you already know where I stand on some of these issues, and we disagree…which is ok by me…we don’t have to agree, just accept our differences with mutual respect for one another.

I do not see my soul in any danger…I have confidence before God through Christ.

 

[awantz]

You dont decide it … you discern it. Still the fact remains is Christ’s own words are used to support the Catholic position. Whose sins you forgive are forgive and whose sins you retain are retained. It is not me you doubt but Christ’s own words.

The answer of yes opens other windows. If yes then you must have to wondery why. The question is why would Jesus give that power to some people, obviously not all received it … it had to be vital for the Christian believer that this power exist on earth … in a visible and tangible way.

I never once said anything against God’s word. You are putting words into my mouth. As a matter of fact I’ve gone to confession at a Catholic Church before. Not because I had to, but because I chose to.
Why? Because people have doubts. Some people are not as strong in their faith as others and they need reassurance that they are forgivin. Also, confessing your sins outloud does have it’s benefits.

 

[ncgolf]

See to me that almost sounds like a crutch. Like you need some sort of physical evidence to be there with you in order to have that relationship. IMHO the faith part of it is somewhat lacking. This is only my opinion which means squat of course. But if you need to have the wafer and wine and a Priest to absolve you then where is the faith in Christ and His work on the cross? I know the catholics here Of COURSE will disagree and I expect you too. I just always thought faith was something you believe without seeing,touching, feeling, etc.

I mean no disrespect here just an observation on my part. The whole CC forgivenss depending on a Priest to tell you you are forgiven seems to me that you are not putting enough FAITH in the fact that you can go right to God all on your own and know he forgives you without the middleman.

What you are saying is we developed these for our own purpose but you have it backward. Christ left these to us … they are biblical and have been supported for 2000 years.

Let me ask … does it take more faith to believe that a wafer of bread and ordinary table wine truly becomes the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ or that it does not.

I mean no disrepect but the words “eat my body, drink my blood” and “whose sins you forgive are forgiven and whose sins you retain are retained” ring wholly true and aboslute for Catholics for Christ said it himself.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

What you are saying is we developed these for our own purpose but you have it backward. Christ left these to us … they are biblical and have been supported for 2000 years.

Let me ask … does it take more faith to believe that a wafer of bread and ordinary table wine truly becomes the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ or that it does not.

I mean no disrepect but the words “eat my body, drink my blood” and “whose sins you forgive are forgiven and whose sins you retain are retained” ring wholly true and aboslute for Catholics for Christ said it himself.

Your question is for a whole other thread.

 

[Elzee]

Forgive me if I’m wrong it’s been awhile since I studied this, but I believe what is meant here by “confess your sins one to another” and James being the bishop of the church of Jerusalem was sins were confessed in a group with the bishop present, the same as today but in a group. I read this is Justins writings I believe, anyone care to speak further on this?

Anyone know the answer to this?