Protestants, how are you certain your sins are forgiven?

[Singinbeauty]

Good evening everyone,

You know I am so pleased to walk into this thread and seeing everyone treating eachother with respect. It does this protestant girl’s heart good as well I can imagine, as God’s.

Manny,

I have to say this is an interesting thread and brings home a point that I have often felt but never knew how to express. So thank you for showing it in another light.

It seems protestants seem to trust God in Faith that their sins are forgiven as is told in the New Testement:

Mark 2:5
When Jesus saw their faith, he said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins be forgiven thee.

Mark 4:12
That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.

Luke 7:47
Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little.

Ephesians 1:7
In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace

Each and everyone of these passages make no mention of going to the apostles for forgivness. Jesus never says, go see my men and you shall be forgiven. No, throughout the Bible we are told to confess our sins to God and we will be forgiven. But I think, more importantly, the passages above tell us that by our FAITH we are forgiven. We don’t need to hear the words ‘You are forgiven’ because we read it several times in the Bible that Jesus’ atonement by His blood is enough. Jesus made the ultimate sacrifice. Not from ourselves but from eternal hopelessness in Hell. We ARE going to screw up. God knows this. We can strive everyday to not sin but this is IMPOSSIBLE. God knows this also. But I can tell you that if I go to Him truly sorry for what I have done He will forgive me because that is what He has promised in the passages above and many more. I don’t need to hear the words because they have already been spoken to my soul.

“It is written: " ‘As surely as I live,’ says the Lord, 'every knee will bow before me; every tongue will confess to God.”- Romans 14:11

 

[tomch]

As a former Baptist who used to think that it was fine to simply confess my sins to God… I have changed my mind! The good old “Ripped Temple Veil” explanation doesn’t work. Here’s why:

John 20:23 - If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained.

I hope everyone realizes that John 20:23 comes ***AFTER ***Jesus’ resurrection. Temple veil has already been ripped (and probably mended by this time, too!). Establishing the “confess to an apostle” instructions as one of the last things He did on earth before His ascension means that His work was done, and now it was the apostle’s turn to perform their assigned work. Think about it… the “ripped temple veil” argument certainly cannot contradict Jesus’ directly spoken words - especially when his clear instructions occur AFTER the temple veil incident.

And another thing regarding the “ripped temple veil” argument… Scripture doesn’t explain ***why ***the veil was ripped. The Protestant explanation - “Because we don’t need Priests and sacrifices anymore” - is a BAD interpretation when you consider Jesus’ direct instructions in John 20:23.

Why take chances that God will allow you to modify the system that He Himself set up before His ascension? Jesus designed it this way for a reason… because it works!

Don’t disobey His direct instructions! That’s pretty risky… especially considering that if you’re wrong, you could be eternally sorry.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

Good evening everyone,

You know I am so pleased to walk into this thread and seeing everyone treating eachother with respect. It does this protestant girl’s heart good as well I can imagine, as God’s.

Manny,

I have to say this is an interesting thread and brings home a point that I have often felt but never knew how to express. So thank you for showing it in another light.

It seems protestants seem to trust God in Faith that their sins are forgiven as is told in the New Testement:

Mark 2:5
When Jesus saw their faith, he said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins be forgiven thee.

Mark 4:12
That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.

Luke 7:47
Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little.

Ephesians 1:7
In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace

Each and everyone of these passages make no mention of going to the apostles for forgivness. Jesus never says, go see my men and you shall be forgiven. No, throughout the Bible we are told to confess our sins to God and we will be forgiven. But I think, more importantly, the passages above tell us that by our FAITH we are forgiven. We don’t need to hear the words ‘You are forgiven’ because we read it several times in the Bible that Jesus’ atonement by His blood is enough. Jesus made the ultimate sacrifice. Not from ourselves but from eternal hopelessness in Hell. We ARE going to screw up. God knows this. We can strive everyday to not sin but this is IMPOSSIBLE. God knows this also. But I can tell you that if I go to Him truly sorry for what I have done He will forgive me because that is what He has promised in the passages above and many more. I don’t need to hear the words because they have already been spoken to my soul.

“It is written: " ‘As surely as I live,’ says the Lord, 'every knee will bow before me; every tongue will confess to God.”- Romans 14:11

AMEN!! BTW I went into your link and listened toYesterday it was good:thumbsup:

 

[Mannyfit75]

Good evening everyone,

You know I am so pleased to walk into this thread and seeing everyone treating eachother with respect. It does this protestant girl’s heart good as well I can imagine, as God’s.

Manny,

I have to say this is an interesting thread and brings home a point that I have often felt but never knew how to express. So thank you for showing it in another light.

It seems protestants seem to trust God in Faith that their sins are forgiven as is told in the New Testement:

Mark 2:5
When Jesus saw their faith, he said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins be forgiven thee.

Mark 4:12
That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.

Luke 7:47
Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little.

Ephesians 1:7
In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace

Each and everyone of these passages make no mention of going to the apostles for forgivness. Jesus never says, go see my men and you shall be forgiven. No, throughout the Bible we are told to confess our sins to God and we will be forgiven. But I think, more importantly, the passages above tell us that by our FAITH we are forgiven. We don’t need to hear the words ‘You are forgiven’ because we read it several times in the Bible that Jesus’ atonement by His blood is enough. Jesus made the ultimate sacrifice. Not from ourselves but from eternal hopelessness in Hell. We ARE going to screw up. God knows this. We can strive everyday to not sin but this is IMPOSSIBLE. God knows this also. But I can tell you that if I go to Him truly sorry for what I have done He will forgive me because that is what He has promised in the passages above and many more. I don’t need to hear the words because they have already been spoken to my soul.

“It is written: " ‘As surely as I live,’ says the Lord, 'every knee will bow before me; every tongue will confess to God.”- Romans 14:11

That still doesn’t answer the question though. How do you know your sins is not Retain?..we got the forgiveness part out of the way… but not the retaining of sin.

 

[O.S.Luke]

Manny… Strawman argument. Again.

O+

 

[ncgolf]

It seems protestants seem to trust God in Faith that their sins are forgiven as is told in the New Testement:

Mark 2:5
When Jesus saw their faith, he said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins be forgiven thee.

Mark 4:12
That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.

Luke 7:47
Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little.

Ephesians 1:7
In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace

Each and everyone of these passages make no mention of going to the apostles for forgivness. Jesus never says, go see my men and you shall be forgiven. No, throughout the Bible we are told to confess our sins to God and we will be forgiven. But I think, more importantly, the passages above tell us that by our FAITH we are forgiven. We don’t need to hear the words ‘You are forgiven’ because we read it several times in the Bible that Jesus’ atonement by His blood is enough. Jesus made the ultimate sacrifice. Not from ourselves but from eternal hopelessness in Hell. We ARE going to screw up. God knows this. We can strive everyday to not sin but this is IMPOSSIBLE. God knows this also. But I can tell you that if I go to Him truly sorry for what I have done He will forgive me because that is what He has promised in the passages above and many more. I don’t need to hear the words because they have already been spoken to my soul.

“It is written: " ‘As surely as I live,’ says the Lord, 'every knee will bow before me; every tongue will confess to God.”- Romans 14:11

Those passages also make no mention of the method for forgivness only that forgiveness is available.

Look at how the stories of Jesus’s healing miracles proceed most of the time. The person who is afflicted asks to be healed, Jesus praises their faith and says “your sins are forgiven”. Those are important words. He could have left it at your faith has saved you … as you seem to emphasize but the words “your sins are forgiven” are spoke. The person did not ask to have their sins forgiven but Jesus does it.

Why would Jesus say those words … “your sins are forgiven” if they were not important. A paralyzed man asked to walk … never did anyone ask for their sins to be forgiven but Jesus does it anyway.

The sacrament of Reconcilation continues that same formula through the ages. The priest does not forgive under his own authority but of Christ’s authority as passed down by Chirst’s command to Peter … 'whose sins you forgive are forgvien, whose sins you retain are retained". The only way this works if those sins are heard by someone who has the authority to forgive.
Why would Jesus have said those words … in the sacrament of Reconciliation those same words … “your sins are forgiven” are spoken just as Christ did 2000 years ago. Your understanding would make better sense if Jesus never said “your sins are forgiven.”

I still wonder, under your understanding, why would Jesus give certain men the power to forgive or retain sin … that is only for God, but it is given as documented in Scripture … also this is given by Jesus breathing on them, that in itself lends importance to the event. The only other time breath by God is used is in giving life to Adam.

 

[Singinbeauty]

That still doesn’t answer the question though. How do you know your sins is not Retain?..we got the forgiveness part out of the way… but not the retaining of sin.

I am not sure I understand your question Manny. Are you asking how we know we won’t sin again? Or are you asking how do we know that the forgiveness ‘sticks’? Please clarify.

Main Entry: re·tain
Pronunciation: ri-'tAn
Function: transitive verb
Etymology: Middle English reteinen, retainen, from Anglo-French retenir, reteigner, from Latin retinEre to hold back, restrain, from re- + tenEre to hold – more at THIN
1 a : to keep in possession or use b : to keep in one’s pay or service; specifically : to employ by paying a retainer c : to keep in mind or memory : REMEMBER
2 : to hold secure or intact
synonym see KEEP

I am not sure by what you are getting at by using the word ‘retain’ but according to the definition above I can tell you that once your sin is forgiven it is like it didn’t even exist. Sure, if you haven’t learned your lesson you will commit it again and you will have to sheepishly go to God and confess it once again. Will you be more sorry this time? Perhaps. But thank the Lord in Heaven that He does not perscribe to the ‘Fool me once shame on you. Fool me twice shame on you.’ theory. No matter how many times we screw up He is always there for us to go to and ask for forgiveness. He never forgets the sacrifice that His only Son gave for us, you know, the one where Jesus became the Last and Final sacrifice for mankind so that we may be able to be in God’s presence again…

 

[Singinbeauty]

Those passages also make no mention of the method for forgivness only that forgiveness is available.

Forgiveness is Forgiveness. Why does God have to reveal His method? When Jesus says ‘You are forgiven’ isn’t that enough? It is by your Faith like a child that you understand you are forgiven and not to second guess God’s promise.

Look at how the stories of Jesus’s healing miracles proceed most of the time. The person who is afflicted asks to be healed, Jesus praises their faith and says “your sins are forgiven”. Those are important words. He could have left it at your faith has saved you … as you seem to emphasize but the words “your sins are forgiven” are spoke. The person did not ask to have their sins forgiven but Jesus does it.

Ah but look at Mark 2:9
9Which is easier: to say to the paralytic, ‘Your sins are forgiven,’ or to say, ‘Get up, take your mat and walk’?
Jesus even said to the pharisees that he could have said either one. Look at verse 11
11"I tell you, get up, take your mat and go home." 12He got up, took his mat and walked out in full view of them all. This amazed everyone and they praised God, saying, “We have never seen anything like this!”

Why would Jesus say those words … “your sins are forgiven” if they were not important. A paralyzed man asked to walk … never did anyone ask for their sins to be forgiven but Jesus does it anyway.

But you do know that back then, especially back then, people thought that if you were ‘defective’ in any way that meant you had done something to deserve it. The man may have wanted to walk but he came with faith that Jesus would heal him through forgiveness.

 

[Singinbeauty]

AMEN!! BTW I went into your link and listened toYesterday it was good:thumbsup:

Thank you! The guy who helped me write that song hates it. I need to get him to understand that people really like it! *sigh… Boys!

 

[chutton]

Interesting discussion so far.

Another thought to throw into the discussion. Jesus says in the “Lord’s Prayer” in Matthew 6 to “pray like this”… He shows that we are to pray directly to God and even gives an example of asking for forgiveness from God directly in verse 12 “And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors.” Jesus doesn’t seem to be advocating going to “man” in order for our confession to reach God. However He does appear to be placing HIGH importance on forgiving those who have wronged us. Interesting.

If we were to step back and put down our arguments for a moment, could the catholic not admit that we can have faith that God does indeed hear our confession directly and will forgive us (not undermining the value right now of going to the priest for confession)? And can the protestant not at least admit that there is value in confessing to each other? I think we could at least reach that common ground. I know there are still key differences present. Just thought I’d throw that out there.

My other thought is that there are a number of passages in the bible where Jesus appears to speak of forgiving the sins of men.

“For if you forgive others for their transgressions, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive others, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions.” Matthew 6:14-15

“Whenever you stand praying, forgive, if you have anything against anyone, so that your Father who is in heaven will also forgive you your transgressions.” Mark 11:25

“‘And forgive us our sins, for we ourselves also forgive everyone who is indebted to us.’” Luke 11:4

There are probably others I missed.

I’m wondering if there are parralels between the John 20 verses and the above passages. When we put it all together do you see a different picture then just the isolated verse in John 20:23?

 

[chutton]

also this is given by Jesus breathing on them, that in itself lends importance to the event. The only other time breath by God is used is in giving life to Adam.

See post #123 for a response to that.

 

[ncgolf]

Forgiveness is Forgiveness. Why does God have to reveal His method? When Jesus says ‘You are forgiven’ isn’t that enough? It is by your Faith like a child that you understand you are forgiven and not to second guess God’s promise.

Then why bother with John 20:23, the event has to be of little significance in the way you are explaining it. You still bypass the reasons why Jesus would have said “whose sins you forgive are forgiven and whose sins you retain are retained”. If you could fit your understanding with the words Christ spoke your understanding would hold but it does not. You are right in saying God does not have to reveal His method but in this case He did … that is the crux. There is a method, it was not invented by men but given to those who can then act with the same authority as Jesus. My point is Jesus still says that phrase “your sins are forgiven”, literally. God works through things so we can see what He is doing. Baptism by water, Jesus breathing on disciples, for Catholics the Eucharist these things make faith visible. Ordinary items take on extraordinary meaning and significance when God commands it.

Ah but look at Mark 2:9
9Which is easier: to say to the paralytic, ‘Your sins are forgiven,’ or to say, ‘Get up, take your mat and walk’?
Jesus even said to the pharisees that he could have said either one. Look at verse 11
11"I tell you, get up, take your mat and go home." 12He got up, took his mat and walked out in full view of them all. This amazed everyone and they praised God, saying, “We have never seen anything like this!”

What is easier for humans to do … ask a paralyzed man to walk or forgive sins. Actually for us, mortals, both are impossible. But theoretically, I could claim to forgive sins and who would know if what I did worked or not. You could not tell. You would be able to see I was a fraud if I asked a paralyzed man to walk and all he could do was still sit there. That is why Jesus asked the man to walk … because if He could do that then it was obvious He could forgive sins, He made the invisible(forgiving sin) a visible event (the man walking). This is what Sacraments do … make the invisible visible … this is why the words in the Catholic sacrament of Reconciliation “your sins are forgiven” are significant. It is Christ making visible an invisible event. This is not so much a forgiving sins scenario but an establishment of Jesus as God … that He has the same power as God.

 

[ncgolf]

See post #123 for a response to that.

I described the actual physical event of God’s breath. God physically breathes only twice, once in the OT and once in the NT. God does not waste his breathe on insignificant events … it magnifies the importance of the event.

God’s gifts are distributed as He sees fit … we don’t always have the same or even in the same quantity. There is nothing to suggest the authority to forgive sins was passed on to all people but only those so authorized by the apostles.

 

[chutton]

That still doesn’t answer the question though. How do you know your sins is not Retain?..we got the forgiveness part out of the way… but not the retaining of sin.

I don’t quite understand this question either. When you speak of sin being retained, has a person truly had a heart change and confessed the sin? Or have they simply said the words, but the heart is not truly contrite and not ready to turn away from sin, so therefore the priest will retain the sins? If that is the case, I would say we are just batting around different terminology and I trust God knows each of our hearts. **“O LORD, You have searched me and known me.” Psalm 139:1 ** And knows when we have truly repented and turned away from the sin, at which point I believe He promises in His Word to forgive our sin completely. “As far as the east is from the west, so far has He removed our transgressions from us.” Psalm 103:12

Maybe what you are getting at is, without the priest making a declaration on the state of our heart (which you believe is knowledge that is directly from God, passed on to the disciples in John 20:23, right?), how can we know if we are truly contrite and have a satisfactory state of repentance before God? I don’t imagine the question at stake is whether or not a truly repentant person can be forgiven or not, is it?

And He said to them, "Rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written:
'THIS PEOPLE HONORS ME WITH THEIR LIPS,
BUT THEIR HEART IS FAR AWAY FROM ME.
‘BUT IN VAIN DO THEY WORSHIP ME,
TEACHING AS DOCTRINES THE PRECEPTS OF MEN.’
“Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men.” Mark 7:6-8

Even when we say the “right” words or seem to follow all the “rules” of religion, God ultimately still is the One who knows our hearts inside and out. We can’t fool Him. Do we all agree on that?

 

[ncgolf]

Interesting discussion so far.

Another thought to throw into the discussion. Jesus says in the “Lord’s Prayer” in Matthew 6 to “pray like this”… He shows that we are to pray directly to God and even gives an example of asking for forgiveness from God directly in verse 12 “And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors.” Jesus doesn’t seem to be advocating going to “man” in order for our confession to reach God. However He does appear to be placing HIGH importance on forgiving those who have wronged us. Interesting.

If we were to step back and put down our arguments for a moment, could the catholic not admit that we can have faith that God does indeed hear our confession directly and will forgive us (not undermining the value right now of going to the priest for confession)? And can the protestant not at least admit that there is value in confessing to each other? I think we could at least reach that common ground. I know there are still key differences present. Just thought I’d throw that out there.

My other thought is that there are a number of passages in the bible where Jesus appears to speak of forgiving the sins of men.

“For if you forgive others for their transgressions, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive others, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions.” Matthew 6:14-15

“Whenever you stand praying, forgive, if you have anything against anyone, so that your Father who is in heaven will also forgive you your transgressions.” Mark 11:25

“‘And forgive us our sins, for we ourselves also forgive everyone who is indebted to us.’” Luke 11:4

There are probably others I missed.

I’m wondering if there are parralels between the John 20 verses and the above passages. When we put it all together do you see a different picture then just the isolated verse in John 20:23?

You can ask for forgiveness at any time … I do it but the question is what reasons would there be for an outward, physical way of seeking and receiveing absolution. There has to be a reason God ordained that this happen and my answer is Grace.

God gives Grace where, when and how He wants. An abundance of God’s grace is available to those using the method He designed and gave to us. I identify with the paralyzed man, not because I am physically paralzyed but realize I am spiritually paralyzed and to be able to hear the words “… your sins are forgiven …” is powerful. I, like the paralyzed man, get up and walk but from a spiritual sense. This is what I mean when God gives tangible, real events to signify invisible happenings.

Many of the passages you cited I understand as to how much mercy God should give me is somewhat based on how much mercy I give. We must be a forgiving people … especially to those who harm us the most. Forgiving those who harm us is vital for our ability to live as merciful, Christian people.

 

[ncgolf]

When you speak of sin being retained, has a person truly had a heart change and confessed the sin? Or have they simply said the words, but the heart is not truly contrite and not ready to turn away from sin, so therefore the priest will retain the sins?

The priest does not have to give absolution for a confessed sin. For example, someone comes in and says they accidently ran over someone and left the scene but they do not want to turn themselves in. A priest may say that sin is not forgiven until that event happens … it would be retained within that person’s soul.

Also if the person is not contrite and will make no effort to change his/her ways the priest may retain that sin and not give absolution. One of the requirements of absolution is that one must be sincere, contrite and make an effort to turn away from that sin.

 

[chutton]

I described the actual physical event of God’s breath. God physically breathes only twice, once in the OT and once in the NT. God does not waste his breathe on insignificant events … it magnifies the importance of the event.

God’s gifts are distributed as He sees fit … we don’t always have the same or even in the same quantity. There is nothing to suggest the authority to forgive sins was passed on to all people but only those so authorized by the apostles.

Yet was not Jesus sending them out with the great commission at that point, a VERY significant event? And He is giving them the Holy Spirit to accomplish this mission.

As written at angelfire.com/nt/theology/jn20-19.html the significance of the gospel and the great commision, reflecting on John 20:23:
“We can look at a man who has come to Christ in faith and who has repented of his sins and we can say to that man that he is forgiven. On the other hand, we can look at a man who has turned away from the message of the gospel and we can say that he is still in his sins.”

A verse that hit me not too long ago was when Paul and Silas could have escaped from prison during an earthquake and spoke to the terrified jailer: “They said, ‘Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.’” Acts 16:31 Notice that they didn’t say you “may” be saved, but that you “will” be saved! That is pretty signicant!

 

[chutton]

The priest does not have to give absolution for a confessed sin. For example, someone comes in and says they accidently ran over someone and left the scene but they do not want to turn themselves in. A priest may say that sin is not forgiven until that event happens … it would be retained within that person’s soul.

Also if the person is not contrite and will make no effort to change his/her ways the priest may retain that sin and not give absolution. One of the requirements of absolution is that one must be sincere, contrite and make an effort to turn away from that sin.

I think we may be running into the OSAS debate a bit here if we push this a bit further, which I think woudl be better suited to another thread as MANY threads have already been devoted to that topic!!

However, I would have to say that much of what you say is on the mark with what I’m saying too! I just don’t believe we need “man” to know our heart and declare it “sincere, contrite and repentant”. And I don’t believe the Bible is very clear that the method in John 20:23 (that I gather Catholics claim is God’s only design for true, assured confession and forgiveness), is the primary (or even the correct) way to making things right with God.

Can we agree:
**“If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.” 1John 1:9 ** ?

In Christ
Christina

 

[ncgolf]

I think we may be running into the OSAS debate a bit here if we push this a bit further, which I think woudl be better suited to another thread as MANY threads have already been devoted to that topic!!

I don’t think it is anywhere near an OSAS debate … it was legitimate question on how the Catholic confession works… these are just the requirements for a Catholic confession … nothing more.

However, I would have to say that much of what you say is on the mark with what I’m saying too! I just don’t believe we need “man” to know our heart and declare it “sincere, contrite and repentant”. And I don’t believe the Bible is very clear that the method in John 20:23 (that I gather Catholics claim is God’s only design for true, assured confession and forgiveness), is the primary (or even the correct) way to making things right with God.

It is a conduit for God’s grace. I took my kids to confession on Good Friday and my daughter was in the car coming home and says, “Dad I feel really clean.” She is 8 so her sins would seem minor to most but the effect on her was real. She is no theologian and could express what she really felt. I could only respond, “You are.”.

Can we agree:
**“If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.” 1John 1:9 ** ?

In Christ
Christina

Sure … that’s what happens in the confessional anyway but also my purpose is to show what a great gift this is. The verse meaning may be unclear to you but I do not think you will be able to say the Catholic position is without Scriptual support.

Catholics have 7 sacraments and only 2 are able to received regularly, Holy Eucharist and Reconciliation. Baptism, Holy Orders, Confirmation, Marriage are one time events while Sacrament of Healing is while not uncommon not an everday occurance for most people. For Catholics, Sacraments are mechanisms where grace is given while wholly unmerited by its recipients. This is why they are so important to us, not to hoard but to make sure all understand what great gifts God has left us.

 

[chutton]

I don’t think it is anywhere near an OSAS debate … it was legitimate question on how the Catholic confession works… these are just the requirements for a Catholic confession … nothing more…

The reason I said it could get into the OSAS debate is that confession (particularily assurance of forgiveness) and assurance of salvation are not separate issues. Rather they run into each other and can become a whole other discussion. I was going to write something along the lines that God asks for our true confession for forgiveness to flow, yet I was thinking that opened up another whole discussion… That was my train of thinking there…and maybe it doesn’t make sense! Who knows! My brain can get muddled, particularly when in discussion about theological matters…since I’m really very amateur at all this

I took my kids to confession on Good Friday and my daughter was in the car coming home and says, “Dad I feel really clean.” She is 8 so her sins would seem minor to most but the effect on her was real. She is no theologian and could express what she really felt. I could only respond, “You are.”.

That is beautiful. My 7 year old daughter has reflected similarly at various times. It is amazing to see her sweet, sensitive spirit confessing to God and trusting Jesus to forgive her sins. And then there is a kind of healing that has taken place in her heart that is evident. She knows she is in right standing with God once again.

Sure … that’s what happens in the confessional anyway but also my purpose is to show what a great gift this is. The verse meaning may be unclear to you but I do not think you will be able to say the Catholic position is without Scriptual support.

Catholics have 7 sacraments and only 2 are able to received regularly, Holy Eucharist and Reconciliation. Baptism, Holy Orders, Confirmation, Marriage are one time events while Sacrament of Healing is while not uncommon not an everday occurance for most people. For Catholics, Sacraments are mechanisms where grace is given while wholly unmerited by its recipients. This is why they are so important to us, not to hoard but to make sure all understand what great gifts God has left us.

The primary purpose for me participating in the discussion on this thread is not to tear down the catholic church and the position held on this sacrament. The primary purpose for my reponses has been to help shed some light on why protestants come at it from a different angle. I think there have been some excellent responses from many different members and scripture that reflects both positions. I really think both positions have some valuable insights. So often we just seek to build our walls higher and don’t want to have a genuine open dialogue. So, thank you for opening this one up and for being so respectful. I know it has helped me a lot thinking, praying and searching this one out more thoroughly And I think we can say we “agree to disagree” here. Although I would have to say it appears we are in agreement that God does forgive the sins of a contrite, sincere, repentant heart. And we can be in agreement that Jesus died on the cross as a sacrifice for our sin. Praise God for His mercy and grace!

In Christ,
Christina