Protestants, how can this be possible?

[JRKH]

Love God with all your heart. Love every person on this earth as you love yourself. Then you will know

Why do you assume that I do not already do this???
The main reason I am a catholic is precisely BECAUSE it is the best way for me to Love God with my whole heart mind and soul and to Love my neighbor as myself.

So then, by your definition I DO already know and thus my interpretation is not in error as you claim in your earlier post, and the Catholic Church IS Christ’s visible and authoritaive Church on Earth.
And since I am not in error, you must be in error for accusing me of error.

If the above sounds “testy” I apologize. I do not mean it that way. Just trying to get the point across.

Peace
James

 

[JRKH]

I did not ignor the second part. The people of God are of One Mind. The people of God are of the Mind of Christ. The people of God are His body.

So then, If we are of one mind, even if we disagree, then you once again assert that my view is just as correct as yours for we are BOTH of the mind of Christ. Is that what you are saying??

Peace
James

 

[Seeker100]

Why do you assume that I do not already do this???
The main reason I am a catholic is precisely BECAUSE it is the best way for me to Love God with my whole heart mind and soul and to Love my neighbor as myself.

So then, by your definition I DO already know and thus my interpretation is not in error as you claim in your earlier post, and the Catholic Church IS Christ’s visible and authoritaive Church on Earth.
And since I am not in error, you must be in error for accusing me of error.

If the above sounds “testy” I apologize. I do not mean it that way. Just trying to get the point across.

Peace
James

I agree with you totally in that becoming a Catholic is the best way for you to love God. If God has brought you to it then of course this is your path. Be part of the Catholic church as it is God’s will for you. Support the Catholic church in its expansion of the Kingdom of God and in doing what is right for mankind.

The Catholic church in many ways and many situations is Christ visible and authoritative church on earth. However it is not always. Learn to recognize when it is in error.

Also the Catholic church is not the Kingdom of God. The Protestant churches are not the Kingdom of God either. Both may point to the Kingdom but they themselves are not the Kingdom.

The Kingdom of God is what it is all about. To become part of Jesus’ body heer on earth. This is a Spiritual Kingdom. Standing for your nation is important and so is standing for your church but none of these are above serving God.

It reminds me of boy scouts we would say we serve "God, the Queen, my country and my fellow man. I don’t agree that fellow man is at the end however God is at the first. God always has to be first. God is love. Love is first. Not your denomination. Love is the Kingdom of God. That comes first.

 

[Seeker100]

So then, If we are of one mind, even if we disagree, then you once again assert that my view is just as correct as yours for we are BOTH of the mind of Christ. Is that what you are saying??

Peace
James

Do not try and assert that you are right with God to me. That is none of my business that is between you and God. Also do not try and judge if I am right with God. That is between God and I. I do not assert that I am right with God. That is between Him and I. It is none of your business or anyone elses.

Just know this, the Roman Catholic Church is not the Kingdom of God. It may point to the Kingdom, but it is not the Kingdom. Going around saying the Catholic church is right and the protestant ones are wrong is not promoting the Kingdom of God. Saying that the Roman Catholic church is the only one that God set up and the Protestants are defective is not promoting the Kingdom of God. Saying that Protestants are not with God because they are not Catholic is not promoting the Kingdom of God. Saying that only one denomination is right is not promoting the Kingdom of God.

A good Catholic points everyone to the Kingdom of God. A good Catholic is not concerned if someone is not Catholic because it does not matter as it is not the Kingdom of God. Serve love first not your denomination.

 

[JRKH]

I agree with you totally in that becoming a Catholic is the best way for you to love God. If God has brought you to it then of course this is your path. Be part of the Catholic church as it is God’s will for you. Support the Catholic church in its expansion of the Kingdom of God and in doing what is right for mankind.

The Catholic church in many ways and many situations is Christ visible and authoritative church on earth. However it is not always. Learn to recognize when it is in error.

Of course you realize what an oximoron it is that you just wrote. First you agree that I should be Catholic since that is where the Spirit guided me, then you tell me that I need to know where the Church is in error. To be Catholic means to accept that the The Church, protected by the Holy Spirit, does not Err in matters of faith and morals. So there are no errors that I need to worry about by being Catholic.

Also the Catholic church is not the Kingdom of God. The Protestant churches are not the Kingdom of God either. Both may point to the Kingdom but they themselves are not the Kingdom.

The Catholic Church is the visible and Authoritative part of the Kingdom of God. It was created By Christ himself and given His authority and Protection. This is clearly shown to those who are able to discern it; in Mt 16:16-19 and in Mt 18:15-18 where Christ uses the term Church and Authority (Keys, and bind and loose) together (the ONLY times the term Church is used in any of the Gospels) and this is backed up in Acts 15 where the Church acts authoritatively, and by Paul in 1Tim 3:15. Evidence for this is further found in the writings of those directly taught by the Apostles and by their successors, the ECF’s

Now I know that you hold different understandings of these passages, but since, by your delief system, it is perfectly OK for us to hold contradicting interpretations my understanding is correct.
Of course the Catholic Church does not hold to such a definition of Truth and it is the context of that Spirit Led Truth that we catholics are able to say to you, that you are in error.
You see that protestants, by giving up the authority of The Church and, by accepting multiple, even contradictory interpretations as equal truths, have removed any possiblity of preventing heresy from entering the Protestant Churches. You have effectively renounced Paul’s teaching about rejecting a “Different Gospel”.
We Catholics on the other hand, by our consistant teaching and Apostolic succession have great confidence, even certitude, that we are following the very Gospel laid down by Christ and Legitimately Governed by those to whom He gave the Power to Bind and loose (that is to settle disputes and prevent heresy)

The Kingdom of God is what it is all about. To become part of Jesus’ body heer on earth. This is a Spiritual Kingdom. Standing for your nation is important and so is standing for your church but none of these are above serving God.

Very True. I agree, we must serve God regardless of denominational differences. Of course defending the Catholic Church, the Bride of Christ and His Visible Authority on earth till He returns, IS part of how I serve God.

It reminds me of boy scouts we would say we serve "God, the Queen, my country and my fellow man. I don’t agree that fellow man is at the end however God is at the first. God always has to be first. God is love. Love is first. Not your denomination. Love is the Kingdom of God. That comes first.

Love is the central core. Amen to that!! May we do all that we can to reside in that Love and the Hope it gives to us. It is in that Christian Love that we try to help others understand the beautiful Truth contained within Christ’s Church, the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.

Praise God

Peace
James

 

[JRKH]

Do not try and assert that you are right with God to me. That is none of my business that is between you and God. Also do not try and judge if I am right with God. That is between God and I. I do not assert that I am right with God. That is between Him and I. It is none of your business or anyone elses.

Just know this, the Roman Catholic Church is not the Kingdom of God. It may point to the Kingdom, but it is not the Kingdom. Going around saying the Catholic church is right and the protestant ones are wrong is not promoting the Kingdom of God. Saying that the Roman Catholic church is the only one that God set up and the Protestants are defective is not promoting the Kingdom of God. Saying that Protestants are not with God because they are not Catholic is not promoting the Kingdom of God. Saying that only one denomination is right is not promoting the Kingdom of God.

A good Catholic points everyone to the Kingdom of God. A good Catholic is not concerned if someone is not Catholic because it does not matter as it is not the Kingdom of God. Serve love first not your denomination.

Excuse me - But this line of conversation began because you accused me of being in error on my position after stating publicly on this forum that multiple and contradictory positions can all be right.
You continue this by saying again here that the Catholic Church is not the Kingdom of God. So you are placing your Spirit Guided understanding above my Spirit Guided understanding. Since, in your theology, many positions are correct, you have no authority to tell me that mine is wrong. You can’t have it both ways. Simple as that.

As to the other things in your post, there is much good there and I see that this exchange is losing it’s charity so I will disengage for now.

Peace
James

P.S. I do beleive that you are a sincere Christian who has the fundamental principle of Love well in hand. Just don’t want to leave the conversation with the wrong impression.
JRKH

 

[Seeker100]

Of course you realize what an oximoron it is that you just wrote. First you agree that I should be Catholic since that is where the Spirit guided me, then you tell me that I need to know where the Church is in error. To be Catholic means to accept that the The Church, protected by the Holy Spirit, does not Err in matters of faith and morals. So there are no errors that I need to worry about by being Catholic.

The Catholic Church is the visible and Authoritative part of the Kingdom of God. It was created By Christ himself and given His authority and Protection. This is clearly shown to those who are able to discern it; in Mt 16:16-19 and in Mt 18:15-18 where Christ uses the term Church and Authority (Keys, and bind and loose) together (the ONLY times the term Church is used in any of the Gospels) and this is backed up in Acts 15 where the Church acts authoritatively, and by Paul in 1Tim 3:15. Evidence for this is further found in the writings of those directly taught by the Apostles and by their successors, the ECF’s

Now I know that you hold different understandings of these passages, but since, by your delief system, it is perfectly OK for us to hold contradicting interpretations my understanding is correct.
Of course the Catholic Church does not hold to such a definition of Truth and it is the context of that Spirit Led Truth that we catholics are able to say to you, that you are in error.
You see that protestants, by giving up the authority of The Church and, by accepting multiple, even contradictory interpretations as equal truths, have removed any possiblity of preventing heresy from entering the Protestant Churches. You have effectively renounced Paul’s teaching about rejecting a “Different Gospel”.
We Catholics on the other hand, by our consistant teaching and Apostolic succession have great confidence, even certitude, that we are following the very Gospel laid down by Christ and Legitimately Governed by those to whom He gave the Power to Bind and loose (that is to settle disputes and prevent heresy)

Very True. I agree, we must serve God regardless of denominational differences. Of course defending the Catholic Church, the Bride of Christ and His Visible Authority on earth till He returns, IS part of how I serve God.

Love is the central core. Amen to that!! May we do all that we can to reside in that Love and the Hope it gives to us. It is in that Christian Love that we try to help others understand the beautiful Truth contained within Christ’s Church, the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.

Praise God

Peace
James

You are too rigid. It is okay the Catholic church has errors. So what who cares? You do not have to serve a perfect church. We Protestants know that our churches have errors. No big deal. Relax everything is cool. God has no errors thus both Catholics and Protestants can be confident in that. Denominations only point to God. They are not God. If one points better than another good for them, it does not mean to close the other down.
As to authority on earth. There is only one ultimate authority. That is God. The Roman Catholic church is not God, it is a denomination. The Roman Catholic church did not create the earth. God is God. God is love. He is the ultimate authority, none shall ever take His place.
The church can very well have God’s words but the ultimate authority over every man woman and child is the Spirit of God directing them.
NEVER PUT SOMETHING IN GOD"S PLACE WITH SOMETHING ELSE.

 

[PJM]

=Seeker100Let me think…Let me try and remember what Jesus taught…Oh yes!! I remember!!! He said to love one another.

“This is my commandment, that you love one another just as I have loved you” John15:12

"But when He, the Spirit of truth comes, He will guide you into all truth: fo whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. John 16:13

John 14:21 “He who has My commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves Me; and he who loves Me shall be loved by My Father; and I will love him and will disclose Myself to him.”

John 1 2:27 And as for you, the anointing which you receive from Him abides in you and you have no need for anyone ot teach you; but as His anointing teaches you about all things. "

Sorry, but Paul was speaking specifically to The Only Church members at the time. The CC. Not to you, and not to me

Haydocks Commentary" Ver. 27. You have no need, You want not to be taught by any of these men, who, under pretence of imparting more knowledge to you, seek to seduce you, (ver. 26) since you are sufficiently taught already, and have all knowledge and grace in the Church, with the unction of the Holy Ghost, which these new teachers have no share in. His unction teacheth you concerning all things. Unction here signifies the doctrine which they received together with the Holy Ghost or Spirit of God; in which he exhorts them to remain, as being sufficient for their instruction, and to make them avoid the new teachers of false doctrine

John 1 2:29 "If you know that He is righteous you know that everyone also who practices righteousness [Another word for "The Truth]is born of Him.

Becasue of space limitations please view the next post also. Thanks,

Love and prayers,

 

[PJM]

Support for One Church, CC Authority and Truth All of these are to viewed in the light of who is speaking and specifically to whom is He speaking?

John 16: “12 "I have yet many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you. All that the Father has is mine; therefore I said that he will take what is mine and declare it to you. “

. 17 Sanctify them in the truth; thy word is truth. As thou didst send me into the world, so I have sent them into the world. And for their sake I consecrate myself, that they also may be consecrated in truth. Christ did this only for the CC for whom He was praying at the time.

John 16: “12 "I have yet many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you. All that the Father has is mine; therefore I said that he will take what is mine and declare it to you. “

*Luke 10:16 “He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects him who sent me.”

Mark 3: 13 “And he went up on the mountain, and called to him those whom he desired; and they came to him. And he appointed twelve, to be with him, and to be sent out to preach and have authority to cast out demons: Simon whom he surnamed Peter; James the son of Zebedee and John the brother of James, whom he surnamed Bo-anerges, that is, sons of thunder; Andrew, and Philip, and Bartholomew, and Matthew, and Thomas, and James the son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus, and Simon the Cananaean, and Judas Iscariot, who betrayed him.”

Eph. 2:19 “So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, in whom the whole structure is joined together and grows into a holy temple in the Lord; [SINGULAR] in whom you also are built into it for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.”

Mt. 28: 18 “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age.” [Jesus mandate to His Catholic Apostles]

Mt. 18: 15 "If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every word may be confirmed by the evidence of two or three witnesses. If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; [SINGULAR] and if he refuses to listen even to the church, [SINGULAR] let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. Truly, I say to you, whatever you [SINGULAR] bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you [SINGULAR] loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”
*

*1 Tim. 3:15 “if I am delayed, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, [singular] the pillar [singular] and bulwark of the truth. [SINGULAR] Great indeed, we confess, is the mystery of our religion:”

Eph. 2:19 19 So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, in whom the whole structure is joined together and grows into a holy temple in the Lord; [SINGULAR] in whom you [SINGULAR /Apostles] also are built into it for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.

Eph. 4: 4 “There is one body **[One Church] ** and one Spirit, [One set of beliefs] just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call, one Lord,One God] one faith, [One set of doctrine and dogma and only One Bible] one baptism, By water in the Trinity] one God and Father of us all, who is above all and through all and in all. But grace was given to each of us according to the measure of Christ’s gift. 8 Therefore it is said, “When he ascended on high he led a host of captives, and he gave gifts to men.”

Love and prayers,
Pat
*

 

[Anna_Scott]

I too saw the page with the methodology explained. It made it obvious that the number sould be “inflated” I think that, from a theological standpoint the number is radically smaller.

Glad you found this. 30,000 sounds so disturbing.

I did a small thread on here awhile back where we came up with 17 fundamental theological principles. Assuming that there are churches who agree and disagree with every combination of these 17 the number would be a few hundred instead of the 30,000 given in the study.

Could you give me the title or link to your Thread. I would really like to read this.

Of course even “a few hundred” is severly wounding to Christ. I sometimes wonder, just what percentage of the weight of Chris’t Cross is the result of our sinful divisions of His body.

I agree that divisions surely wound our Lord. It breaks my heart.

Keep praying Anna,
Go to a parish nearby and spend time in front of the tabernacle. The tabernacle containing the Very Real Presense of Christ Himself. Lay your concerns before Him and pray for his guidance.

Thank you for your words of encouragement. When I was in my twenties (century ago,) I lived near a Catholic Tabernacle. The doors were always open during the day. I used to go inside and sit in the silence and pray----a surprising thing to do, since I was a Baptist back then. Maybe I should try it again.

In Christ,
Anna

 

[Seeker100]

John 1 2:27 And as for you, the anointing which you receive from Him abides in you and you have no need for anyone ot teach you; but as His anointing teaches you about all things. "

Sorry, but Paul was speaking specifically to The Only Church members at the time. The CC. Not to you, and not to me

Haydocks Commentary" Ver. 27. You have no need, You want not to be taught by any of these men, who, under pretence of imparting more knowledge to you, seek to seduce you, (ver. 26) since you are sufficiently taught already, and have all knowledge and grace in the Church, with the unction of the Holy Ghost, which these new teachers have no share in. His unction teacheth you concerning all things. Unction here signifies the doctrine which they received together with the Holy Ghost or Spirit of God; in which he exhorts them to remain, as being sufficient for their instruction, and to make them avoid the new teachers of false doctrine

John 1 2:29 "If you know that He is righteous you know that everyone also who practices righteousness [Another word for "The Truth]is born of Him.

Becasue of space limitations please view the next post also. Thanks,

Love and prayers,

Okay let’s explain this in another way. The question on the forum is how can some people accept 1000’s of different denominations as no problem.

It is like this, if one views the chruch that Jesus set up as a spiritual one that is not of this world and that all of the denominations just point to this Kingdom in their own imperfect way then there is no problem. Let there be 1000’s more churches. No problem. The church that Jesus set up is the Kingdom of God. People in the Kingdom come from all denominations. Everything is a okay.

If however one’s view is that the Catholic church is the Kingdom of God then of course one would be disturbed with all the other denominations.

Thus people like me that believe the real church is a spiritual one that is not of this world have no problems with different sects and ways.

 

[NotTooSmart]

Statistics show the number of Protestant secs at well in excess of 30,000!

I am befuddled, confused, bewildered how this can be a fact [a rapidly growing fact] and yet it does not seem to register with non-Catholics that something is obviously wrong.

I am very sincere in not being able to comprehend the lack of concern that seems to indicate that this is fine, it’s somehow God’s Will. There can only be ONE truth on any particular issue. So how can this be:shrug:

I do not mean this as a disparagement of any type. I simply am confounded that this does not raise a “red flag” and questions? Can you enlighten me?

I have been faithfully answeing your questions for more more than a year. Help me out here

Love and prayers,
Pat

(Now you do sort of lessen your point by claiming there are over 30K Protestant denominations when there are not. Your point would be better served by using an intentionally smaller figure than the actual amount. Anyway…)

I have heard the issue of Protestant denominations cited by Catholic apologists bigger than everybody here and it is 1/2 convincing but not totally. Let me illustrate.

It is convincing if I were Catholic and considering “becoming Protestant”. I would not know which Protestant denomination to become. So case closed (unless I was for some reason a disenchanted Catholic and then all bets are off.).

It is convincing in the sense that if I am Protestant and claiming a position of superiority to y’all, then you as a Catholic would have every right to observe a disconnect on this point.

But what if I as a Protestant am not claiming a position of superiority but a position of approximate equality. Then, you all as Catholics would appear to us as just one more denomination anyway.

And it is not convincing (to me anyway) if you as a Catholic wish to conclude that you occupy a position of superiority (one true church) in relationship to us. This is because at best, the most I can conclude from this observation is “we as Protestants are messed up” (at least in part).

Well to be honest, I don’t need this argument to make that conclusion. All I really need to do is watch TBN (sorry). Or be in any church for over a year.

More seriously, it does not follow from any argument that ends with “you as Protestants are messed up” that “y’all as Catholics are superior to us and are in fact the one true church”. That is because I still know nothing about you, and that you might in fact be just as messed up as we are (albeit in other areas possibly).

Anyway, I don’t really want to debate this. I really doubt whether denominations are what Jesus had in mind when He designed the church. But “it is what it is” and neither you or I are going to change it. From my perspective, if at any point in time I see God doing something that indicates to me that He is getting rid of denomination, then God and I will have a conversation and I no doubt will join Him in this. But since I do not see God doing that today, we are back to “it is what it is”.

Anyway, you just asked for my reaction to the phenomenon of denomination and I gave my silly opinion as best as I can.

 

[JRKH]

You are too rigid. It is okay the Catholic church has errors. So what who cares? You do not have to serve a perfect church. We Protestants know that our churches have errors. No big deal. Relax everything is cool. God has no errors thus both Catholics and Protestants can be confident in that. Denominations only point to God. They are not God. If one points better than another good for them, it does not mean to close the other down.
As to authority on earth. There is only one ultimate authority. That is God. The Roman Catholic church is not God, it is a denomination. The Roman Catholic church did not create the earth. God is God. God is love. He is the ultimate authority, none shall ever take His place.
The church can very well have God’s words **but the ultimate authority over every man woman and child is the Spirit of God directing them. **
NEVER PUT SOMETHING IN GOD"S PLACE WITH SOMETHING ELSE.

Assuming that it is indeed the Spirit of God that is directing them and not the Father of Lies, the great Deceiver. Rmember that Satan tricked Eve into disobedience even though Adam and Eve walked in the Garden With God, daily.

The Devil can very easily use Scripture to turn us away from the Truth. He even tried it with the Son of God Himself. That is why Christ established a three legged stool. The Word, Our understanding, and the Authoritative Church to make sure we don’t get tricked. Make sure you don’t get tricked by those errors that are, “No big deal”.

Peace
James

 

[JRKH]

Glad you found this. 30,000 sounds so disturbing.

Could you give me the title or link to your Thread. I would really like to read this.

I agree that divisions surely wound our Lord. It breaks my heart.

Thank you for your words of encouragement. When I was in my twenties (century ago,) I lived near a Catholic Tabernacle. The doors were always open during the day. I used to go inside and sit in the silence and pray----a surprising thing to do, since I was a Baptist back then. Maybe I should try it again.

In Christ,
Anna

Anna,
The Thread on this is HERE

Peace
James

 

[Seeker100]

Assuming that it is indeed the Spirit of God that is directing them and not the Father of Lies, the great Deceiver. Rmember that Satan tricked Eve into disobedience even though Adam and Eve walked in the Garden With God, daily.

The Devil can very easily use Scripture to turn us away from the Truth. He even tried it with the Son of God Himself. That is why Christ established a three legged stool. The Word, Our understanding, and the Authoritative Church to make sure we don’t get tricked. Make sure you don’t get tricked by those errors that are, “No big deal”.

Peace
James

The Spirit of God is in everyone and is directing everyone. Whether one obeys it or not is up to them. If they obey the truth they will not have errors. It is not an error to celebrate the Sabath on a Tuesday afternoon without communion and every body closing their eyes and humming if it is out of love.
It is not an error if people take communion but believe it is symbolic if it is out of love.
It is not an error if people take communion and believe that it is actually Jesus if it is out of love.
These differences are nothing.

To sum it up like I explained in a post to someone else the church Jesus set up is a Spiritual church. It is the Kingdom of God. All the denominations including catholic just point to this Kingdom. They are not the Kingdom. They are just pointers. If one denomination points to Jesus better than others then good for them. Churches can point to the Kingdom of God in different ways. It does not matter how they point as long as they are pointing to love. There is no “right” way to point to love.

God gave us something better than an authoratative church run by people who make errors. He gives us his Spirit.

Thus people can be contradictory in their views (eg communion etc) but when all is pointing to God both are right even though the views on certain issues are different.

 

[luke1_28]

The Catholic church in many ways and many situations is Christ visible and authoritative church on earth. However it is not always. Learn to recognize when it is in error.

It is in ALL ways and ALL situations Christ’s visible and authoritative Church on earth. The Church is never in error when it teaches ex cathedra in matters of faith and morals. The Holy Spirit is guaranteed to Her when the Magisterium is of “One mind” and She teaches. This is the ‘mind of Christ’ on earth - the collective mind of the Church. The Holy Spirit is a Spirit of clarity and not one of confusion. It is a Spirit of Truth. The Catholic Church is the mind of Christ that teaches Truth empowered by the Holy Spirit.

However, it can be said that the Church appears corrupt because it’s people can be corrupt and in error and this historically includes popes, bishops, priests, religious, laity, etc. The Church is made of human beings capable of sin just as any other human being is. The leadership of the Church too - are human beings. They share in our fallen nature as much as the next guy. However, it’s in the attempt of those same people in the Church to repent and try to live the will of God, that the Father delights in. Climbing the mountain of holiness, is where God the Father cheers us on. The summit is where we embrace Him and become one with Him - Body and Blood - Soul and Divinity. It is here that exists the Holy Church - the Bride of Christ.

What Luther and the reformers did - instead of positive change - they created negative change. The attempted reformation of the Bride of Christ - became a deformation of the Bride of Christ. It is evident the devil was at work within the Church because of the corruption of it’s people and outside the Church because of the vengeful accusations labeling the whole Church as corrupt because of the actions of a few. The reformers were nothing more than unforgiving finger pointers chastising the corruptors of the Bride of Christ. While the Church held more worldy power than it ever should have at that time, there had to be a more Christ-like way of handling it. If Luther was acting in the place of Christ, he would have treated the Church as the Bride of Christ that She is - worthy of the dignity and respect She deserves. The Church could have gone through a true reformation instead of the anarchy that ensued during and as a result of the 'de’formation.

Perhaps Luther heard a voice, Calvin heard a voice, heard a voice. Perhaps they heard the voice of God. However, as soon as the Bride of Christ was violently abused and torn apart as She was, that voice speaking to them ceased to come from God.

As a result, the doctrine that flowed from the reformation weakened the world and made the mission of the Church weaker. Therefore you have sin more prevalent than it should be. Where abortion and homosexuality exists as a right because of the fruit of your type of theology. Individual popes will always do some funny things. These are the fruits of a Christianity ‘deformed’ instead of a Catholic Christianity United as Christ prayed for in John 17.

Your variation on Christianity seems to be a tiptoe through the moral relativistic tulips. Your theology flies in the face of logic saying the Holy Spirit creates maxims for one and not another, truths for one and not another. Truth is Truth and what is True for one is True for all. THE Truth died for Truth. Stop insulting Christ’s Bride by trying to cheapen Her.

Are you really even a “Seeker” at all? Or are you more of a “Founder”?

God bless you,
luke1_28

 

[NotTooSmart]

Anna,
The Thread on this is HERE

Peace
James

That was actually a fascinating thread. I think more can be added. Off the top of my head.

• Beliefs on origins (creation)
• Beliefs on the deluge (Noah’s ark)
• And then there are 100s of beliefs on whether any certain activity is sin or OK with God (from playing cards to homosexuality). You might want to have one major classification here for simplicity, but there are probably 100s of specifics.

That having been said, it begs the question on how many belief systems are possible within Catholicism. Now I know that the correct answer is 1, but in reality I know that multiple belief systems are possible on origins (I have read a Catholic geocentrist), gifts of the Holy Spirit (Charismatic or not) and I am sure there are others.

 

[Seeker100]

It is in ALL ways and ALL situations Christ’s visible and authoritative Church on earth. The Church is never in error when it teaches ex cathedra in matters of faith and morals. The Holy Spirit is guaranteed to Her when the Magisterium is of “One mind” and She teaches. This is the ‘mind of Christ’ on earth - the collective mind of the Church. The Holy Spirit is a Spirit of clarity and not one of confusion. It is a Spirit of Truth. The Catholic Church is the mind of Christ that teaches Truth empowered by the Holy Spirit.

However, it can be said that the Church appears corrupt because it’s people can be corrupt and in error and this historically includes popes, bishops, priests, religious, laity, etc. The Church is made of human beings capable of sin just as any other human being is. The leadership of the Church too - are human beings. They share in our fallen nature as much as the next guy. However, it’s in the attempt of those same people in the Church to repent and try to live the will of God, that the Father delights in. Climbing the mountain of holiness, is where God the Father cheers us on. The summit is where we embrace Him and become one with Him - Body and Blood - Soul and Divinity. It is here that exists the Holy Church - the Bride of Christ.

What Luther and the reformers did - instead of positive change - they created negative change. The attempted reformation of the Bride of Christ - became a deformation of the Bride of Christ. It is evident the devil was at work within the Church because of the corruption of it’s people and outside the Church because of the vengeful accusations labeling the whole Church as corrupt because of the actions of a few. The reformers were nothing more than unforgiving finger pointers chastising the corruptors of the Bride of Christ. While the Church held more worldy power than it ever should have at that time, there had to be a more Christ-like way of handling it. If Luther was acting in the place of Christ, he would have treated the Church as the Bride of Christ that She is - worthy of the dignity and respect She deserves. The Church could have gone through a true reformation instead of the anarchy that ensued during and as a result of the 'de’formation.

Perhaps Luther heard a voice, Calvin heard a voice, heard a voice. Perhaps they heard the voice of God. However, as soon as the Bride of Christ was violently abused and torn apart as She was, that voice speaking to them ceased to come from God.

As a result, the doctrine that flowed from the reformation weakened the world and made the mission of the Church weaker. Therefore you have sin more prevalent than it should be. Where abortion and homosexuality exists as a right because of the fruit of your type of theology. Individual popes will always do some funny things. These are the fruits of a Christianity ‘deformed’ instead of a Catholic Christianity United as Christ prayed for in John 17.

Your variation on Christianity seems to be a tiptoe through the moral relativistic tulips. Your theology flies in the face of logic saying the Holy Spirit creates maxims for one and not another, truths for one and not another. Truth is Truth and what is True for one is True for all. THE Truth died for Truth. Stop insulting Christ’s Bride by trying to cheapen Her.

Are you really even a “Seeker” at all? Or are you more of a “Founder”?

God bless you,
luke1_28

Okay well this is what you think. It is not what I think. I am not a founder. I am a seeker. In my seeking I have found people of all denominations who have the Spirit of God and love. These various people with different views on communion, homosexuality, masturbation, pre marital sex, divorce, birth control, abortion, oral sex, church decoration, dress code, drinking, legalized drug use etc. all have Jesus living in them as they serve God with all their heart and soul. These people who I learn from are the body of Christ. Some are Catholic but some are not.

When one loves one has God and one is in the Light and does not stumble.

The Reformation was a fantastic time for Christianity as it is to this very day. It strenghtened our worship of God immesearably. Do you think things were good before the reformation? I will let you in on something, it was not. The reformation gave more accountability to the churches. Monopolies are not good. The reformation allowed the Truth to be expressed in many more ways reaching more people. As someone said more leaves on the tree.

You always say that Jesus prayed for Catholic christianity. I am hurt, did He not pray for Protestants too? You don’t agree with what I am to say but he was praying for the people who serve Him. They are His real church. Some are Catholic, some are Anglican, some are Methodist, some are Quakers, some are Baptist some are any denomination one can think of. The Kingdom of God cannot be shaken. The pointers to God can be shaken. The Catholic church can be shaken as can any of the Protestant groups but the Kingdom of God can never be shaken.

 

[Holly3278]

I think that many Protestants think that there are only a few denominations in the Protestant sect of Christianity. I know when I was a young Southern Baptist, I didn’t realize that there was well over 30,000 denominations. Now that I know this, I am all the more thankful that I am now a Catholic.

 

[PJM]

=Seeker100;5701712]You are in error. The Roman Catholic church is not the Kingdom of God. The Kingdom of God is not of this world, the Roman Catholic church is of this world (Understand I don’t mean that in a bad way). The Kingdom of God is in the hearts of any person who loves God nomatter what building he goes to on Sunday, (Saturday or whatever).

People of all denominations belong to the Kingdom of God and Jesus is the head. People of the Kingdom of God have Jesus work through them. They see Jesus in everyone they meet. The Kingdom of God is very organized and unified as God is its leader. The gates of hell can never defeat it.

The one and only true church is NOT the Roman Catholic church. The one and only true church is a spiritual church of people who really serve God. The true church is made of people from every sect you can imagine. The true church is made of the ones that love Jesus.

Some Roman Catholics are in the true church which is the Kingdom of God and some Protestants are too.

Many Roman Catholics are certainly in the Kingdom of God but the Roman Catholic church is definitely NOT the Kingdom of God.

Jesus set up a spiritual church not a worldly one. People have set the worldly church up.

In all ages there are those that serve God (love) and those that serve Baal. God knows whom His people are.

Here is what your KJB says:

v. 19:** “And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven:** and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven”

That friend is THEE Protestant Bible agreeing with us. What the heck are you using to back your persoanl point of view:shrug: