Protestants, how can this be possible?

[jmcrae]

People must be free to learn of Spiritual things.

They are far more free to learn in the Catholic Church, where there is no confusion of doctrine, and the teachings are plainly taught.

The days of the bible locked away so that only a few could see are over!! We will never go back!! Christ’s Kingdom is on the advance!!!

The Bible was not “locked away” - it was chained to a podium next to a large window, so that anyone who wanted to could read it, just like an encyclopedia at the library, because in those days, they didn’t have the printing press and Bibles were really expensive.

Up until the days of the Internet, they used to chain up the encyclopedia, because they could only afford to buy one, and people couldn’t afford to buy their own - so by chaining it up, the library made it accessible to everyone, with nobody being allowed to take it home only for themselves. Today, now that we have the Internet, it’s no longer necessary to have encyclopedias at the library - everyone can look up whatever they want. Up until the time of the printing press, Churches would have Bibles chained up that everyone could read, in exactly the same way and for the same reason.

Many people also could not read in those days, so in addition to having a Bible available in the Church that everyone could use (and no one could steal) they heard the Bible read out at Mass and in the Divine Office, and they meditated on the stories of Christ’s Incarnation in their prayers of the Rosary. They also participated in various pageants (our modern Christmas pageant is a remnant of those days - Bible stories told through stylized acting and set lines that everyone - even the smallest children - knew off by heart, and through the art and architecture in the Church itself.

In fact, I would bet that the Bible was less of a mystery to your average illiterate medieval Catholic peasant, than it is to many learned Protestant scholars of the modern era.

 

[Seeker100]

They are far more free to learn in the Catholic Church, where there is no confusion of doctrine, and the teachings are plainly taught.



The Bible was not “locked away” - it was chained to a podium next to a large window, so that anyone who wanted to could read it, just like an encyclopedia at the library, because in those days, they didn’t have the printing press and Bibles were really expensive.

Up until the days of the Internet, they used to chain up the encyclopedia, because they could only afford to buy one, and people couldn’t afford to buy their own - so by chaining it up, the library made it accessible to everyone, with nobody being allowed to take it home only for themselves. Today, now that we have the Internet, it’s no longer necessary to have encyclopedias at the library - everyone can look up whatever they want. Up until the time of the printing press, Churches would have Bibles chained up that everyone could read, in exactly the same way and for the same reason.

Many people also could not read in those days, so in addition to having a Bible available in the Church that everyone could use (and no one could steal) they heard the Bible read out at Mass and in the Divine Office, and they meditated on the stories of Christ’s Incarnation in their prayers of the Rosary. They also participated in various pageants (our modern Christmas pageant is a remnant of those days - Bible stories told through stylized acting and set lines that everyone - even the smallest children - knew off by heart, and through the art and architecture in the Church itself.

In fact, I would bet that the Bible was less of a mystery to your average illiterate medieval Catholic peasant, than it is to many learned Protestant scholars of the modern era.

Men who translated the bible into their native tongues so the masses could read it were often burnt to death.
It has been a long fought struggle to bring the bible to the masses. Wycliffe had his bones dug up and crushed 40 years after his death. John Hus was burned at the stake. Tyndale was strangled and then burned.

Be thankful you can freely open your bible and read it in your own language. This wonderful opportunity we have was paid for with many lives.

 

[jmcrae]

Men who translated the bible into their native tongues so the masses could read it were often burnt to death.

Men (and women) who mistranslated the Bible and made it say what they wanted it to say, instead of what was actually supposed to be there, were punished according to the laws of those days, including the death penalty by burning. (This is one of the ways that Christ’s Church has protected His Word and HIs teachings throughout the centuries. Can you imagine the chaos, if people were allowed to just write whatever they want, and then tell people that it is the Bible? How would anyone today be able to know what is the Bible and what isn’t, if those people had been allowed to get away with changing it around to suit their own ideas?)

It has been a long fought struggle to bring the bible to the masses. Wycliffe had his bones dug up and crushed 40 years after his death. John Hus was burned at the stake. Tyndale was strangled and then burned.

None of those people made an error-free translation of the Bible into English - all of their translations contained deliberate errors, by which they hoped to provoke the people to rebel against the Pope, and to destroy Christ’s church while they grabbed political power.

Accurate Catholic translations of the Bible were available to the English-speaking peoples of the world beginning in about 700 AD. (Prior to that time, the English language didn’t have writing, yet.)

Be thankful you can freely open your bible and read it in your own language. This wonderful opportunity we have was paid for with many lives.

There was never any need to “pay with many lives” for good translations of the Bible into English. The Catholic Church was making perfectly good translations, hundreds of years before those people were even born. What a tragic waste!

 

[Seeker100]

Men (and women) who mistranslated the Bible and made it say what they wanted it to say, instead of what was actually supposed to be there, were punished according to the laws of those days, including the death penalty by burning.

None of those people made an error-free translation of the Bible into English - all of their translations contained deliberate errors, by which they hoped to provoke the people to rebel against the Pope, and to destroy Christ’s church while they grabbed political power.

Accurate Catholic translations of the Bible were available to the English-speaking peoples of the world beginning in about 700 AD. (Prior to that time, the English language didn’t have writing, yet.)

There was never any need to “pay with many lives” for good translations of the Bible into English. The Catholic Church was making perfectly good translations, hundreds of years before those people were even born. What a tragic waste!

Well it is perhaps because of the work of these courageous men and women that the church does not burn people up any more.

 

[VARC]

Correct. But what it does argue for is that “the Bible is my authority” cannot possibly work.

That depends by what you mean by “work”.

All 40,000 denominations have the same Scriptures (some minus 7 books, granted), but they all have different doctrines that have arisen from reading the very same verses.

But there is no demand for uniformity on as many doctrines in protestantism as in catholicism. What you call “doctrines” they would call opinions. I can see why you would confuse the two. In the RCC, opinions are restircted by the myriad of dogma one must accept.

 

[VARC]

I’m not sure what you mean here. Are you saying that these independent churches essentially agree?

I’m saying that they agree on what they believe to be “essential”.

 

[Anna_Scott]

Statistics show the number of Protestant secs at well in excess of 30,000!

I am befuddled, confused, bewildered how this can be a fact [a rapidly growing fact] and yet it does not seem to register with non-Catholics that something is obviously wrong.

I am very sincere in not being able to comprehend the lack of concern that seems to indicate that this is fine, it’s somehow God’s Will. There can only be ONE truth on any particular issue. So how can this be:shrug:

I do not mean this as a disparagement of any type. I simply am confounded that this does not raise a “red flag” and questions? Can you enlighten me?

I have been faithfully answeing your questions for more more than a year. Help me out here

Love and prayers,
Pat

Pat:

I heard about the claim of 30,000 Protestant Denominations. The number is not as large as it sounds, when you consider the statistical methodology used. I found the breakdown on a website recently, but I don’t remember the site to provide a link.

However, no matter how we look at this (even if the number is smaller,) there are still an overwhelming number of divisions in the Protestant Sector.

For those who are deeply committed to their particular Protestant denomination or “sect,” the numbers really don’t matter. Their whole world revolves around their church, and they are convinced they are right. Most will not even study anything outside their denomination. They live out their religion with tunnel vision.

Sadly, there is a hatred of the Catholic Church, that can be traced back to the pulpits of some Protestant Churches. I have witnessed this myself, and it breaks my heart.

For Protestants like me, who are reading and questioning; the numerous divisions are critical and deeply disturbing. There is definitely something wrong, since we can’t all be right.

As expressed on another Thread, after four years of studying the Bible and the history of Judaism and Christianity; I feel like a Christian “all dressed up with no place to go”—to worship and fellowship with other Christians.

I have abandoned the Baptist Church (I grew up in Southern Baptist Churches,) because I think many of the Doctrines are not supported by Scripture.

I no longer accept Sola Scriptura; I do not believe in salvation by faith alone–as faith without works is dead; I do not believe “once saved, always saved.”

At the same time, there are some Catholic Doctrines that I’m not sure I can accept. Though there are many days, when the Catholic Church is very appealing—if only to escape the bickering.

As I participate on these Threads: I often find that I am disagreeing with fellow Protestants more often than I am disagreeing with Catholics. Protestant Forum Members have even accused me of sounding more like a Catholic than a Protestant—in the Protestant Sector, that is not a compliment.

So, I am somewhere between Catholicism and Protestantism, and it is a very lonely place to reside.

On these Forums, I have met Protestants who converted to Catholicism; and Catholics who have converted to a Protestant Religion—confusing—since, in both cases, the converts demonstrate a confident faith that God lead them to the right place within Christendom.

I keep praying that God will lead me to His Truth and His Church.

Anna

 

[PRmerger]

No. God’s voice in your heart is not you. It is God. To deny this is rebellion against God. This voice either leads you or condemns you.

Do you have a verse in Scripture that tells you this, Seeker?

 

[PRmerger]

The revelation of God happens to every person at every second of every day.

And do you have a Scripture verse for this, too?

 

[PRmerger]

One is more open to the truth.

The purpose of being “open” to the truth is to close it, at some point, on Truth. In your system, there is no way of knowing the Truth.

 

[PRmerger]

But there is no demand for uniformity on as many doctrines in protestantism as in catholicism. What you call “doctrines” they would call opinions.

I prefer Truth over opinions.

If the pastor of a Protestant denominations wants to say, “it’s my *opinion *that baptism is not necessary” I don’t know why anyone would want to follow his fallible, non-authoritative opinion…

 

[PRmerger]

I’m saying that they agree on what they believe to be “essential”.

And they would be using non-Biblical traditions to decide what’s an 'essential" doctrine, for Scripture does not tell us what is “essential”.

 

[VARC]

I prefer Truth over opinions.

If the pastor of a Protestant denominations wants to say, “it’s my *opinion *that baptism is not necessary” I don’t know why anyone would want to follow his fallible, non-authoritative opinion…

Cute. What you view as truth is only your opinion of the truth. The pope’s infallibility itself is your personal opinion. So, that reasoning could be leveled at you as well.

 

[VARC]

And they would be using non-Biblical traditions to decide what’s an 'essential" doctrine, for Scripture does not tell us what is “essential”.

And…?

Roman Catholics have their opinions on what is essential. Protestants have their opinions on what is essential. So what?

 

[PRmerger]

And…?

Roman Catholics have their opinions on what is essential. Protestants have their opinions on what is essential. So what?

Well, it’s a little hypocritical for Protestants who criticize Catholics for “non-Scriptural” traditions, when their “essential doctrines” are non-Scriptural. They are holding us to a standard that they don’t hold themselves.

 

[PRmerger]

Cute. What you view as truth is only your opinion of the truth. The pope’s infallibility itself is your personal opinion. So, that reasoning could be leveled at you as well.

No, if you read the CCC you won’t ever find the word “opinion” when related to doctrinal truth.

That’s just your fallible, non-authoritative belief the the CC’s teachings are mere opinion.

 

[VARC]

No, if you read the CCC you won’t ever find the word “opinion” when related to doctrinal truth.

That’s just your fallible, non-authoritative belief the the CC’s teachings are mere opinion.

Newsflash buddy, the catecheism catalogs the theological opinions of the RCC. They have faith that they are correct but they cannot prove that any of their positions are “the truth”.

It’s just your fallible non-authoratative belief that they are right.

 

[PRmerger]

I’m saying that they agree on what they believe to be “essential”.

I dunno…but I’m guessing that this is not a true statement.

Let’s just take the first 25 denominations that were listed on the source I originally cited which counts the Protestant denominations:
A of BC in Luzon Visayas Mindanao
A Unterstütz in Mennonitengemeinden
Abbott Loop Fell of Community Churches
Aboriginal pentecostal congregations
Absolute Maori Established Church
Acção Bíblica
Acción Misionera Iglesia de Dios
Achang Church
Achewa Baptist Church
Action Apostolique
Action Biblique
Acts Mission Church of South Africa
Acts of Apostles Christ Church Nigeria
Advent Christian Church
Advent Christian Conference
Advent Christian Conference of Japan
Adventist Church
Adventists of the True Remnant
Africa Christian network
Africa Evangelical Church
Africa Evangelical Church of Malawi
Africa Gospel Church
Africa Gospel Unity Church
Africa Inland Church
African Apostolic Church of Johane Maranke

And here’s a list of different beliefs that people have taken from reading the Bible:

What is original sin and its effects on humanity
Baptism
Rapture
Tongues (some believe others are not saved if they don’t speak in tongues)
Divorce
Abortion
Homosexuality
When to celebrate the Lord’s Day
Once saved, always saved
Music or no music (Singing or no singing)
Women pastors, no women pastors
Hell, or no hell
The Eucharist (Communion)
Sola scriptura/private interpretation
Ordination
Trinity vs. Unitarianism
Death/Soul Sleep
Church leadership, or no leadership
Head coverings or no head coverings
Health and wealth gospel
Drinking allowed, drinking not allowed)
Attend weekly services, don’t have to go to Church
Judge others, don’t judge others
What’s a sin, what is not a sin
Charity or no charity (help one another or let them help
themselves)
Is God‘s Holy Name Jehovah
Predestination
Is it permissible for women to teach Scripture?

I’m going to bet money that even those 25 denominations wouldn’t agree after reading the same bible verses on the above. Oh! That reminds me of another thing they could disagree on–whether the Bible says it’s okay to gamble!

 

[PRmerger]

Newsflash buddy, the catecheism catalogs the theological opinions of the RCC. They have faith that they are correct but they cannot prove that any of their positions are “the truth”.

It’s just your fallible non-authoratative belief that they are right.

So did you do a google search and see if “opinion” is in the Catechism?

BTW, I am not your “buddy”. I am your Sister in Christ and you ought to treat me as such.

 

[VARC]

I dunno…but I’m guessing that this is not a true statement.

Let’s just take the first 25 denominations that were listed on the source I originally cited which counts the Protestant denominations:
A of BC in Luzon Visayas Mindanao
A Unterstütz in Mennonitengemeinden
Abbott Loop Fell of Community Churches
Aboriginal pentecostal congregations
Absolute Maori Established Church
Acção Bíblica
Acción Misionera Iglesia de Dios
Achang Church
Achewa Baptist Church
Action Apostolique
Action Biblique
Acts Mission Church of South Africa
Acts of Apostles Christ Church Nigeria
Advent Christian Church
Advent Christian Conference
Advent Christian Conference of Japan
Adventist Church
Adventists of the True Remnant
Africa Christian network
Africa Evangelical Church
Africa Evangelical Church of Malawi
Africa Gospel Church
Africa Gospel Unity Church
Africa Inland Church
African Apostolic Church of Johane Maranke

And here’s a list of different beliefs that people have taken from reading the Bible:

What is original sin and its effects on humanity
Baptism
Rapture
Tongues (some believe others are not saved if they don’t speak in tongues)
Divorce
Abortion
Homosexuality
When to celebrate the Lord’s Day
Once saved, always saved
Music or no music (Singing or no singing)
Women pastors, no women pastors
Hell, or no hell
The Eucharist (Communion)
Sola scriptura/private interpretation
Ordination
Trinity vs. Unitarianism
Death/Soul Sleep
Church leadership, or no leadership
Head coverings or no head coverings
Health and wealth gospel
Drinking allowed, drinking not allowed)
Attend weekly services, don’t have to go to Church
Judge others, don’t judge others
What’s a sin, what is not a sin
Charity or no charity (help one another or let them help
themselves)
Is God‘s Holy Name Jehovah
Predestination
Is it permissible for women to teach Scripture?

I’m going to bet money that even those 25 denominations wouldn’t agree after reading the same bible verses on the above. Oh! That reminds me of another thing they could disagree on–whether the Bible says it’s okay to gamble!

Most of those doctrines are not essentials accoording to protestants. The five fundamental are what most of the 40000+ churches hold to be essential.

The inspiration of the Bible by the Holy Spirit and the inerrancy of Scripture as a result of this.
The virgin birth of Christ.
The belief that Christ’s death was an atonement for sin.
The bodily resurrection of Christ.
The historical reality of Christ’s miracles.

You are constantly judging protestants by RC standards and then are mocking their apparent disunity based on your own faulty understanding of protestant eccelsiology. The whole “40,000 churches” argument is simply a straw man used to mischaracterize protestant unity.