Protestants, how can this be possible?

[Follow_Yeshua]

In the years since Vatican II the Church has made many strides toward being more inclusive. This is reflected in many of her documents and teachings.
Use to be that a Catholic was not permitted to even ENTER a protestant Church building, let alone attend a protestant service. Today we have ecumenical services and events regularly.
The Church has admitted to and apolgized for the overzealous actions of it’s members in past injustices.
The Church has been in dialog with the EO, The Lutherens, and the Anglicans with an eye toward drawing closer together and eventually reunification.

The thing that the Church cannot and will not do is “sell out” the deposit of Faith. The best she can do is, look at and study the doctrines of the other Churches and see if there are areas of common “meaning” even if “terminology” etc. is different.
I find this is a common issue here at CAF with Lutherens. Once we really get down to “brass tacks” we agree on most everything with the main differences being ones of terminology and the “weight” given to this or that piece of the salvic equation.

The Church does and will continue to reach out to our seperated bretheren in Love.

Peace
James

James, I think you’re a nice guy.

 

[JRKH]

Some Catholics believe in birth control, some don’t (even though the church teaches that it is wrong.)

Some Catholics are pro-choice, some are not. (even though it is not condoned by Rome)
Some Catholics don’t believe in the Real Presence, others do (even though the Church teaches it)
Some Catholics believe that your are saved by faith alone, others do not.

Yes, we are all sinners.

This is why, it is most important for The Church to be clear on what it DOES teach. So that those who truly wish to know can find out from Church Documents and not from, “sinful” Catholics.

Peace
James

 

[Justy90]

In the years since Vatican II the Church has made many strides toward being more inclusive. This is reflected in many of her documents and teachings.
Use to be that a Catholic was not permitted to even ENTER a protestant Church building, let alone attend a protestant service. Today we have ecumenical services and events regularly.
The Church has admitted to and apolgized for the overzealous actions of it’s members in past injustices.
The Church has been in dialog with the EO, The Lutherens, and the Anglicans with an eye toward drawing closer together and eventually reunification.

The thing that the Church cannot and will not do is “sell out” the deposit of Faith. The best she can do is, look at and study the doctrines of the other Churches and see if there are areas of common “meaning” even if “terminology” etc. is different.
I find this is a common issue here at CAF with Lutherens. Once we really get down to “brass tacks” we agree on most everything with the main differences being ones of terminology and the “weight” given to this or that piece of the salvic equation.

The Church does and will continue to reach out to our seperated bretheren in Love.

Peace
James

Good genuine response. Thank you.

 

[Justy90]

Some Catholics believe in Garabandel and some don’t
Some Catholics speak in tongues some don’t
Some Catholics pray to Mary some don’t
Some Catholics follow the Pope some Don’t

it goes on and on…for both Catholic and Protestant.

that’s exactly the point.

 

[Justy90]

Yes, we are all sinners.

This is why, it is most important for The Church to be clear on what it DOES teach. So that those who truly wish to know can find out from Church Documents and not from, “sinful” Catholics.

Peace
James

And that goes the same for other churches as well. I am Anglican as I’m sure you well know and church position is that Christ is truly present in the Eucharist, but I can assure you that not everyone receiving believes that.

 

[JRKH]

Some Catholics believe in Garabandel and some don’t
Some Catholics speak in tongues some don’t
Some Catholics pray to Mary some don’t
Some Catholics follow the Pope some Don’t

it goes on and on…for both Catholic and Protestant.

These posts speak to what “Individuals” believe or accept in both the Catholic and Protestant camps. However, what individuals accept is not the same as what The Church Accepts and that is where the big difference comes in.

Catholicism has a clear written set of beliefs and practices. The historical roots of these can be fairly traced back to the very early Church. They can even be traced throug the differences, arguments, and councils required to discern and define them. So it can be seen that the Catholic Church has not simply coasted along in harmony. Yet unity of Doctrine is maintained and communicated.

Protestantism, at it’s very core is based on the belief that the Bible can be properly understood by anyone who is prayerful and “Spirit guided”. A noble and highminded idea that is not without merit. The problem is that there is no “Authoritative” structure by which to determine which understanding of the Bible is, and which is NOT, Truly “Spirit Guided”. Disagreements, even within a community, can easily result in the community splitting apart rather than submitting to the Holy Spirit in “The Church in council”.

Regardless of the True number of different “doctrinal” communities, the issue in all of this comes down to one of Authority. Who does have the right to make “official” determinations of Doctrine? The Catholic Church, for all her infighting, has demonstrated her ability to do this and maintain unity of doctrine. Protestantism, on the other hand has demonstrated a tendency away from unity.

Peace
James

 

[Justy90]

These posts speak to what “Individuals” believe or accept in both the Catholic and Protestant camps. However, what individuals accept is not the same as what The Church Accepts and that is where the big difference comes in.

Catholicism has a clear written set of beliefs and practices. The historical roots of these can be fairly traced back to the very early Church. They can even be traced throug the differences, arguments, and councils required to discern and define them. So it can be seen that the Catholic Church has not simply coasted along in harmony. Yet unity of Doctrine is maintained and communicated.

Protestantism, at it’s very core is based on the belief that the Bible can be properly understood by anyone who is prayerful and “Spirit guided”. A noble and highminded idea that is not without merit. The problem is that there is no “Authoritative” structure by which to determine which understanding of the Bible is, and which is NOT, Truly “Spirit Guided”. Disagreements, even within a community, can easily result in the community splitting apart rather than submitting to the Holy Spirit in “The Church in council”.

Regardless of the True number of different “doctrinal” communities, the issue in all of this comes down to one of Authority. Who does have the right to make “official” determinations of Doctrine? The Catholic Church, for all her infighting, has demonstrated her ability to do this and maintain unity of doctrine. Protestantism, on the other hand has demonstrated a tendency away from unity.

Peace
James

This is where we simply don’t agree. Firstly, you are painting with a very broad brush when you speak of Protestantism as one entity. This in my opinion is where Catholics are very much wrong. It is a grave injustice and falsehood to everyone involved to simply cast everyone off who isn’t within your structure. Although you will argue with a handful of Scripture passages, the Bible in its entire context does not say that Christ’s Church is one institution or one structure. Secondly, where does it say that the only Authority is the Catholic church? The Bible doesn’t say this. This must come from the magisterium and there in lies the problem. I cordially must disagree with you, thank you.

 

[johnXXIII]

John 6:52
At this the Jews quarreled among themselves, saying, ''How can He give us his flesh to eat?
There upon Jesus said to them;
‘‘Let me solemnly assure you, if you do not eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood you have no life in you. He who feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has life eternal, and I will raise him up on the last day. for my flesh is real food and my blood real drink,
The man who feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him’’
Our protestant brothers don’t believe in the Eucharist, confession, confirmation, or an ordained apostolic priesthood.
John 6:44
No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him; I will raise him up on the last day. It is written by the prophets: They shall be taught by God…
There are only 1 billion Catholics, united with the true Catholic Church at Rome out of 7 billion people. These people have rejected the Catholic church. May God have mercy on their souls

 

[onenow1]

These posts speak to what “Individuals” believe or accept in both the Catholic and Protestant camps. However, what individuals accept is not the same as what The Church Accepts and that is where the big difference comes in.

Catholicism has a clear written set of beliefs and practices. The historical roots of these can be fairly traced back to the very early Church. They can even be traced throug the differences, arguments, and councils required to discern and define them. So it can be seen that the Catholic Church has not simply coasted along in harmony. Yet unity of Doctrine is maintained and communicated.

Protestantism, at it’s very core is based on the belief that the Bible can be properly understood by anyone who is prayerful and “Spirit guided”. A noble and highminded idea that is not without merit. The problem is that there is no “Authoritative” structure by which to determine which understanding of the Bible is, and which is NOT, Truly “Spirit Guided”. Disagreements, even within a community, can easily result in the community splitting apart rather than submitting to the Holy Spirit in “The Church in council”.

Regardless of the True number of different “doctrinal” communities, the issue in all of this comes down to one of Authority. Who does have the right to make “official” determinations of Doctrine? The Catholic Church, for all her infighting, has demonstrated her ability to do this and maintain unity of doctrine. Protestantism, on the other hand has demonstrated a tendency away from unity.

Peace
James

Well said:thumbsup:
Peace and God Bless.
onenow1opcorn:

 

[johnXXIII]

This is where we simply don’t agree. Firstly, you are painting with a very broad brush when you speak of Protestantism as one entity. This in my opinion is where Catholics are very much wrong. It is a grave injustice and falsehood to everyone involved to simply cast everyone off who isn’t within your structure. Although you will argue with a handful of Scripture passages, the Bible in its entire context does not say that Christ’s Church is one institution or one structure. Secondly, where does it say that the only Authority is the Catholic church? The Bible doesn’t say this. This must come from the magisterium and there in lies the problem. I cordially must disagree with you, thank you.

Well, for over 2000 years we have been under the impression that Jesus did establish an apostlic church, the eastern catholic church think that they are apostolic also.
Your error is in the bible, our catholic church was established in our tradition, after 300 years of tradition the church put together our bible, which you also use. Faith is a supernatual gift from God, you just don’t have it, its okay, we will pray for our protestant brothers.
Get a good book on the History of the Catholic, written by a Catholic, for understanding for our confidance and faith.

 

[Follow_Yeshua]

These posts speak to what “Individuals” believe or accept in both the Catholic and Protestant camps. However, what individuals accept is not the same as what The Church Accepts and that is where the big difference comes in.

Catholicism has a clear written set of beliefs and practices. The historical roots of these can be fairly traced back to the very early Church. They can even be traced throug the differences, arguments, and councils required to discern and define them. So it can be seen that the Catholic Church has not simply coasted along in harmony. Yet unity of Doctrine is maintained and communicated.

Protestantism, at it’s very core is based on the belief that the Bible can be properly understood by anyone who is prayerful and “Spirit guided”. A noble and highminded idea that is not without merit. The problem is that there is no “Authoritative” structure by which to determine which understanding of the Bible is, and which is NOT, Truly “Spirit Guided”. Disagreements, even within a community, can easily result in the community splitting apart rather than submitting to the Holy Spirit in “The Church in council”.

Regardless of the True number of different “doctrinal” communities, the issue in all of this comes down to one of Authority. Who does have the right to make “official” determinations of Doctrine? The Catholic Church, for all her infighting, has demonstrated her ability to do this and maintain unity of doctrine. Protestantism, on the other hand has demonstrated a tendency away from unity.

Peace
James

Yeshua is the spiritual head over my church. That is all I know. He is my high priest and has earned the rank of Melchizedek. His words are the only ones I follow and if there is something that I cannot yet grasp and there are a few, I will leave it to him to bestow that wisdom upon me.

The Things I know as certain that he as taught me are:

1. The perfect sacrifice that he laid down for me.
2. And my faith in Him knowing that his grace is sufficient.
3. He in the Father, and the Father is in him
4. He is my High Priest
5. He is the ONE who verified all the prophecies therefore validating him as the Messiah.
6. I will praise no other in a spiritual manner
7. I will Worship him Alone!

 

[johnXXIII]

These posts speak to what “Individuals” believe or accept in both the Catholic and Protestant camps. However, what individuals accept is not the same as what The Church Accepts and that is where the big difference comes in.

Catholicism has a clear written set of beliefs and practices. The historical roots of these can be fairly traced back to the very early Church. They can even be traced throug the differences, arguments, and councils required to discern and define them. So it can be seen that the Catholic Church has not simply coasted along in harmony. Yet unity of Doctrine is maintained and communicated.

Protestantism, at it’s very core is based on the belief that the Bible can be properly understood by anyone who is prayerful and “Spirit guided”. A noble and highminded idea that is not without merit. The problem is that there is no “Authoritative” structure by which to determine which understanding of the Bible is, and which is NOT, Truly “Spirit Guided”. Disagreements, even within a community, can easily result in the community splitting apart rather than submitting to the Holy Spirit in “The Church in council”.

Regardless of the True number of different “doctrinal” communities, the issue in all of this comes down to one of Authority. Who does have the right to make “official” determinations of Doctrine? The Catholic Church, for all her infighting, has demonstrated her ability to do this and maintain unity of doctrine. Protestantism, on the other hand has demonstrated a tendency away from unity.

Peace
James

The number of different view written in the different protestant bible demonstrate the confussion and the errors and attempts to lead others astray.
The Roman Catholic Church under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit put together the Holy Bible after the traditions of the church brought the christian leaders of the 3rd century to establish our bible which you stole from us why don’t you give it back its not yours, you have just destroyed it.
Luther and Calvin were angry, hate-mongers, desires to destroy the church. Stealing Baptism, and a bread and wine service for a spiritual communion, not the real thing.

 

[jmcrae]

Some Catholics believe in Garabandel and some don’t
Some Catholics speak in tongues some don’t
Some Catholics pray to Mary some don’t
Some Catholics follow the Pope some Don’t

it goes on and on…for both Catholic and Protestant.

The difference between the Catholic and the Protestant is that a heretical Catholic will find no support for his heresies in the official teachings of the Church, but the Protestant will be able to find a Church that teaches most if not all of his favourite heresies.

Even our friend who can’t find a church without a steeple where they have services on Saturdays will find one, eventually. (It will probably be a Catholic church, but what can you do. )

 

[Justy90]

The number of different view written in the different protestant bible demonstrate the confussion and the errors and attempts to lead others astray.
The Roman Catholic Church under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit put together the Holy Bible after the traditions of the church brought the christian leaders of the 3rd century to establish our bible which you stole from us why don’t you give it back its not yours, you have just destroyed it.
Luther and Calvin were angry, hate-mongers, desires to destroy the church. Stealing Baptism, and a bread and wine service for a spiritual communion, not the real thing.

This is laughable. Hate mongers?? OMG.

 

[Justy90]

The number of different view written in the different protestant bible demonstrate the confussion and the errors and attempts to lead others astray.
The Roman Catholic Church under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit put together the Holy Bible after the traditions of the church brought the christian leaders of the 3rd century to establish our bible which you stole from us why don’t you give it back its not yours, you have just destroyed it.
Luther and Calvin were angry, hate-mongers, desires to destroy the church. Stealing Baptism, and a bread and wine service for a spiritual communion, not the real thing.

You are a hate monger.

 

[JRKH]

This is where we simply don’t agree. Firstly, you are painting with a very broad brush when you speak of Protestantism as one entity.

First of all I do recognize that I am painting with a “Broad Brush” but one has to sometimes when talking about the fundamental truth of Protestantism.
Can you deny that the vast majority, if not all, Protestant Churches are based on Prima Scriptura and the right of the individual to “prayerfully” interpret?
The great weakness that I see in this, historically and widely Protestant, position is the fruit it has produced. As I said in my post I think that the Idea of “Spirit Guided” interpretation is a good one but, if every protestant Church is “Spirit Guided” then why are they so different to the point of conflicitng? Can such be teh work of the Holy Spirit in Each and Every case??

This in my opinion is where Catholics are very much wrong. It is a grave injustice and falsehood to everyone involved to simply cast everyone off who isn’t within your structure.

You are right and this is why The Church has taken the step of recognizing in the Catechism that other Christian Churches contain basic Truths.

Although you will argue with a handful of Scripture passages, the Bible in its entire context does not say that Christ’s Church is one institution or one structure. Secondly, where does it say that the only Authority is the Catholic church? The Bible doesn’t say this. This must come from the magisterium and there in lies the problem. I cordially must disagree with you, thank you.

This is where I think a basic difference occurs. The Bible DOES point to a single structure. That structure may change/evolve over time but it is a single structure.
Without getting into a lot of detail, the OT points to the Arc and the Temple in Jerusalem. The ten Tribes that abandoned the Temple in Jerusalem and worshiped elswhere wee conquored and disappeared. Those who remained loyal to the temple in Jerusalem, though defeated and exiled, returned and rebuilt.
In the new Testament Christ Prayed that we be one as He and the Father are One.
St Paul exhorted the Churches to be “Of One Mind”.
The Church even met in Jerusalem to hammer out issues between the Church in two different cities. (Acts 15)

Yes we can argue verses back and forth as you say, but one thing stands out to me and that is from Christ Himself who told us to “Tell it To The Church” (Mt 18:17) and then to abide by the Church’s decision. Without that authority to “decide”, to “bind and loose” protestantism has split and splintered into the many denominations we see today.

Peace
James

 

[Justy90]

First of all I do recognize that I am painting with a “Broad Brush” but one has to sometimes when talking about the fundamental truth of Protestantism.
Can you deny that the vast majority, if not all, Protestant Churches are based on Prima Scriptura and the right of the individual to “prayerfully” interpret?
The great weakness that I see in this, historically and widely Protestant, position is the fruit it has produced. As I said in my post I think that the Idea of “Spirit Guided” interpretation is a good one but, if every protestant Church is “Spirit Guided” then why are they so different to the point of conflicitng? Can such be teh work of the Holy Spirit in Each and Every case??

You are wrong here. Anglicanism doesn’t teach what you claim every Protestant adheres to. We teach that God gives us the ability to reason together as a body when we read Scripture. And just how many interpretations of Scripture are there? How many can there be?

 

[jmcrae]

This is laughable. Hate mongers?? OMG.

St. Teresa of Avila in her book The Way of Perfection wrote, about the time when her girls were wandering homeless in the streets, “Our extreme poverty was our salvation - the Lutherans had no convent of ours to burn down, and no treasures of ours to steal.”

 

[PJM]

=JRKH;5684175]I ran a thread here on trying to determine Actual Doctrinal Belief Systems in order to get a more accurate number of “Different Denominations” and came up with a number somewhat under 200. The Thread Is Here
If you look about halfway down page two you’ll see taht we came up with about 17 different criteria. Of course this is merely a “Straw-poll” type of thing, but it clearly demonstrates a fallicy in the whole 30,000 number that keeps being tossed about.

That being said, even one split in His Church is wounding to Christ.

So many sins He had to bear - Even that one - That His children should fight and be splintered and estranged to each other.

Peace
James

Thanks for info. I was speaking Worls wide. But even 200 does not change the validity of the question.

One wonders if one were to look in the Yellow Pages in say NY how many one would find? And why is this not a concern in the Protestant community?

Love and prayers,

 

[Follow_Yeshua]

The difference between the Catholic and the Protestant is that a heretical Catholic will find no support for his heresies in the official teachings of the Church, but the Protestant will be able to find a Church that teaches most if not all of his favourite heresies.

Even our friend who can’t find a church without a steeple where they have services on Saturdays will find one, eventually. (It will probably be a Catholic church, but what can you do. )

Well there are endless numbers of Catholic people who are heretical because I would say over 90% of them have never read the CCC.

How’s that for unity?