Protestants, how can this be possible?

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Are you assuming that all of the disputes were over trivial matters?

They can’t both be correct, though. One of them does not have the truth, and the whole point of St. Paul telling them to get the Church coming in and solving the dispute for them was so that both of them would have the opportunity to have the truth of Jesus Christ, and to know with certainty what Jesus wants them to believe. The early Church had no concept of “agree to disagree” - they ruled on all these things, and made definitive statements that all Christians are supposed to believe in and abide by. To not do so, is to make an exit out from under the umbrella called “Christianity,” to become something that is not quite Christian, any more, though it bears a striking resemblance.
The disputes I am refering to are the ones where the Christians took their fight to civil court. Paul was angry that these disputes were taken there and not solved among themselves. The issues that I am refering to in the above statement were not religious issues they were other problems. Thus in a civil dispute two people with the Holy Spirit were fighting eacy other. It is very possible. It is because the world is not black and white. It is gray.
Many issues are gray including religious ones.
 
Actually, the count is over 40,000 now. (See text at bottom of page to note the total count for today. :eek:)

This accounts for only a few overlaps which “artifically inflate” the denomination count. Perhaps the Episcopal Church in England is fully in communion with the Episcopal Church in Angola, but the **majority **of denominations listed are independent and have doctrinal disputes with all other denominations of similar names. (And, I agree that the list cited above also includes “238 “Roman Catholic” denominations (for exactly 238 countries), i.e. one Catholic Church for each country”, which will also artifically inflate the count. However, this inflates the numbers minutely.)
I don’t think the number of protestant churches argue for the truth or falsehood of protestantism. In addition to counting dioceses as independent churches…
  1. Many of the churches that have a eucharistic understanding of communion on the list are in full sacramental communion. For example TEC, ELCA, UMC, and others are in full communion the way Rome is in communion with some uniate churches. So, by extension the UMC is in full sacramental commuin with the Old Roman Catholic Church of the See of Utrech. You cannot fairly count these as two different churches by Rome’s standard because the UMC is in communion with TEC who in communion with the C of E who in communion with Utecht. All of these should be counted as one church.
  2. The churches that don’t have a sacramental theology share an understanding that all “Bible believing” churches are already in the highest state of communion possble. Their ecclesiology is just different from sacramental churches. To them, independent Bible believing churches are already unified as different congregations of the one body of Christ.
 
I don’t think the number of protestant churches argue for the truth or falsehood of protestantism.
Correct. But what it does argue for is that “the Bible is my authority” cannot possibly work. All 40,000 denominations have the same Scriptures (some minus 7 books, granted), but they all have different doctrines that have arisen from reading the very same verses.
 
  1. The churches that don’t have a sacramental theology share an understanding that all “Bible believing” churches **are already in the highest state of communion possble. **Their ecclesiology is just different from sacramental churches. To them, independent Bible believing churches are already unified as different congregations of the one body of Christ.
I’m not sure what you mean here. Are you saying that these independent churches essentially agree?
 
A whole world of uncertainty, then. Is that what you think Jesus came to establish for us? (Couldn’t we have been just as not sure about anything, without Him coming?)
Jesus established something great for all of us!!! He established the greatest gift of all. He brought us life. The light of life. He brought us the kingdom of God. This is what He established and the gates of hell, cannot ever overthrow it.

Before Jesus people could serve God in their hearts. Abraham and the men of God of the old testimate did this. They were missing something however. They could not do their actions directly to God. It was not possible. With Jesus, God enters our history as a human. Now we can do things straight for Him. As Mother Teresa says, “the poor are Christ in disguise”. We now as Christians can see Jesus in everyone we meet. What a gift! We can serve Jesus in all we meet, the good, the bad, the believing, the unbelieving. This is life!! He who has the Son has life! He who does not have the Son does not have the life!! This is real, very very real…He who wants to drink! Let him drink!! He who does what is true comes to the light that his deeds may become manifested as having been wrought in God!!

The life of God is for all of us. It is meant for us. What a joy!! What a privilage! Jesus can work His work in each of us through the power of the Holy Spirit!! This life is what was meant to be! WE CAN ALL HAVE IT!! God wants us to have it. We can all have the Holy Spirit doing His work in our bodies.

This is what Jesus brought! The unification of mankind and God.
 
Well, now I don’t know what to believe! If what you’re saying is True then the world IS black and white. 👍
Code:
Somethings yes or maybe yes and and somethings not or maybe not. Thus it is gray.
Of course God exists and God is love. Jesus is God. Jesus is love. This is not gray.
 
Ah, another black/white statment. Perhaps you should word it “The world could be gray, but then again, it could be black and white. I just don’t know!” 😉
Follow the Holy Spirit and then you know.
 
Follow the Holy Spirit and then you know.
How does one know if he’s following the HS? What if a Bible-believing Christian says he’s following the HS and divorces his wife and marries another, even if this is contrary to Scripture? But he thinks he’s following the HS because he’s a Christian?
 
How does one know if he’s following the HS? What if a Bible-believing Christian says he’s following the HS and divorces his wife and marries another, even if this is contrary to Scripture? But he thinks he’s following the HS because he’s a Christian?
One knows if one is following the Holy Spirit because it is from God. An outsider cannot judge another in this matter. That is between that man and God. God knows and the man knows. That is all that matters.
 
Seeker100;5695677:
That is between that man and God. God knows and the man knows. That is all that matters.
Do you have a Scripture verse for this belief, Seeker, that all that matters is what’s between man and God?

That seems to contradict Scripture–esp the verse that says, “If your brother sins against you…” If it’s just between you and God, then how could anyone sin against you?
 
Do you have a Scripture verse for this belief, Seeker, that all that matters is what’s between man and God?

That seems to contradict Scripture–esp the verse that says, “If your brother sins against you…” If it’s just between you and God, then how could anyone sin against you?
You are skipping topic here in the second part of your write up. To answer the first part: Of course, the scripture cannot be broken. Love God with all your strength, heart, soul and understanding.

In your second part I do not understand what you mean but I will give it a go. You can be wronged by someone who is actually doing the right thing. As I said before the world is gray.
 
In your second part I do not understand what you mean but I will give it a go. You can be wronged by someone who is actually doing the right thing. As I said before the world is gray.
If the world is gray as you call it, then there is no moral certainty in the world. The analogies one could think of to demonstrate the fallacy in this way of thinking is too numerous but I invite my fellow Catholics to chime in and put some up here.

I would dare say that anyone who thinks the world is only gray, must not be trusted. Who could trust a banker with their money if they think the world is only gray? Who could trust a teacher with their children if they think the world is only gray? Who then, in their right mind, could trust a ‘CHURCH’ - that only sees gray?

THE Truth - is black and white. Truth really does exist in the universe. We base our moral judgement and the decisions we make on eternal Truths - summarized by the Ten Commandments. The world is a place that tries to distort Truth - turning it into ‘gray’. Laws are being passed and protected in this world that are ‘gray’.

To bring it into perspective, calling the world ‘gray’ is the fruit of protestantism - . This lack of clarity is caused by not having the luxury of, or faith in any institution to give you the Truth. There is no one to teach black and white. If there is no right and wrong, then you have moral relativism. What’s true for one may not necessarily be true for another. This is what a CHURCH is for. Lack of moral certainty is what causes anarchy and what allows the enemy to gain the upper hand. Because if a man says that a girlfriend is his and another man says that the girl is his, there will be a fight. If a nation claims the West Bank as theirs and another says it’s theirs, there will be a war. In both cases, there is no gray. There is a truth. Knowing the truth would prevent the anarchy. This is what the MISSION of the Church COMBATS! When people join a church, they wish to escape the grays of the world - they wish to be told the black and white truth. They are exhausted by the anarchy of the gray.

It all brings into clarity WHY Jesus prayed what he prayed in John 17.

The High Priestly Prayer
17:1 When Jesus had spoken these words, he lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, “Father, the hour has come; glorify your Son that the Son may glorify you, 2 since you have given him authority over all flesh, to give eternal life to all whom you have given him. 3 And this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent. 4 I glorified you on earth, having accomplished the work that you gave me to do. 5 And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.

6 “I have manifested your name to the people whom you gave me out of the world. Yours they were, and you gave them to me, and they have kept your word. 7 Now they know that everything that you have given me is from you. 8 For I have given them the words that you gave me, and they have received them and have come to know in truth that I came from you; and they have believed that you sent me. 9 I am praying for them. I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours. 10 All mine are yours, and yours are mine, and I am glorified in them. 11 And I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, keep them in your name, which you have given me, that they may be one, even as we are one. 12 While I was with them, I kept them in your name, which you have given me. I have guarded them, and not one of them has been lost except the son of destruction, that the Scripture might be fulfilled. 13 But now I am coming to you, and these things I speak in the world, that they may have my joy fulfilled in themselves. 14 I have given them your word, and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. 15 I do not ask that you take them out of the world, but that you keep them from the evil one. [1] 16 They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. 17 Sanctify them [2] in the truth; your word is truth. 18 As you sent me into the world, so I have sent them into the world. 19 And for their sake I consecrate myself, [3] that they also may be sanctified [4] in truth.

20 “I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, 21 that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 The glory that you have given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one, 23 I in them and you in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that you sent me and loved them even as you loved me. 24 Father, I desire that they also, whom you have given me, may be with me where I am, to see my glory that you have given me because you loved me before the foundation of the world. 25 O righteous Father, even though the world does not know you, I know you, and these know that you have sent me. 26 I made known to them your name, and I will continue to make it known, that the love with which you have loved me may be in them, and I in them.”

He sought unity - VISIBLE unity - and not just through unity of spirit as the protestants like to claim. They like to think that there is no VISIBLE church - because then they can cover the physical evidence of where it started. But it flies in the face of logic because human beings are body and spirit tightly interwoven to glorify God the Father as our Creator and Provider. God the Father, being the good Father He is, has through His Son given us a VISIBLE Church - and empowered it to teach the Truth. Would a good Father allow his children to play roulette and place his bet on the wheel of which church teaches the fullness of His Truth? There was only one Church - the Catholic Church. For 1500 years, the Catholic Church existed to infallibly teach this Truth in matters of faith and morals. For the last 500 years, some sects of protestantism has sought to systematically destroy this Teacher of Truth with fabrications and half truths - ‘grays’ if you will.

Be not afraid, Catholics. The Church Militant lives strong. She will shine forth like the Bride of Christ that She is in that day of reckoning. Be steadfast in your Faith - the Faith given to you by Christ Himself and was handed down through the ages from the Apostles to their successors. You have the fullness of Truth - there is no gray for you who are loyal to the Holy Father and the Magisterium.

God bless you,
luke1_28
 
One knows if one is following the Holy Spirit because it is from God.
And you know it is from God, because … ?
An outsider cannot judge another in this matter.
Who do you classify as “an outsider”? The Apostles were doing this for their followers all the time. Remember Ananias and Sapphira? They were certainly judged by “outsiders,” and God agreed with their judgement.

I have an acquaintance at my church who is married, who was dating a man who was not her husband. When we (church members) told her that she was acting outside of God’s will for her life, she asserted that Jesus had told her personally that this man (and not her husband) was the man for her.

Then, the things happened that usually happen in these situations (which is why God warns us not to do these things), and now, she has lost everything, with no place to live, and no one to be with.

All she had to do was listen to the teachings of the Catholic Church, and she would have avoided this situation. But she chose instead to “follow her heart” and to “follow the voice of God” that she was hearing in her mind’s ear, without testing that voice against the teachings of the Catholic Church, and she ended up in really deep trouble.

But people do this sort of thing every day. They are genuinely convinced that God has told them that they, personally, are an exception to whatever the rule may be - that they are “special” and that the rules for ordinary people don’t apply to them.
 
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