Protestants, how can this be possible?

[PJM]

Jmcrae, PJM, PRmerger, JRKH:
From Anna

I believe God’s Word is “living and active”; and I believe God can use His Word in an infinite number of ways to accomplish His Divine Purposes. I am not referring to an infinite number of doctrines, though Protestantism seems to have gone to “infinity and beyond.”

Anna, allow me please to try to add a bit of perspective to your concerns.

Please don’t take any of my comments personally or as a criticism. I tend to be pragmatic.

It ought to be clear to any that actually care that individual interpretation of the Bible was from start to finish not intended as a personal option.
**
How can one know this?** Well lets review a few facts that are historically proveable, which gets us out of the area n of personal opinion.

Clearly Christ founded Only One Church. The term “The [SINGULAR] Church” appears some 37 times in the NT section of the Bible. Giving indisputable support to Mt. 16:15-19.

History attest that from the time of Christ Death on the Cross-until the first Protestant church came into being was just shot of 1,600 years. {King Henry the Eight in the late 1,500’s, Church of England.} So simple logic affirms that whenever the Bible speaks of “the Church” it was specifically limiting itself to the Catholic Church. The Terms “Catholic and Christian” of which neither appear in the Bible because they were yet “to be invented and used,” is but an excuse not founded on logic.

The Bible was completed shortly before the end of the “First Century” and there is evidence of both of these terms being used shortly their after.[20/30 years.] St. Ignatius in the year 107 AD, for example.

Add to this who wrote the Bible and why.

The Bible is a Catholic book. The OT was collected by early church Fathers [keep in mind there was only the One Church.] And the entire New Testament is “eye witness” accounts by [the Catholic Apostles and authors] of the life of Christ and travels of Saint Paul. Quite simply the Bible has to be a Catholic book or there would be no bible at all.

No other Bible appeared on the scene until the King James Bible in roughly the year 1,650. So are we to assume that no bible existed prior to the King James? Of course not! Luther himself said that the Bible came “from the Church.”

So what was and for that matter what is the purpose of the Bible. And why did the Catholic Church refuse to publish it in “common language” until forced to do so by Luther, as to try to blunt the amount of ERROR that no doubt would be added to the Kings James Bible.

To avoid debate on this point, let us understand that the Bible is “The Inspired Words of our God.” Thus it is true so far as what they contain, are complete. Logic again affirms that any and all changes are an abomination to the God that inspired them.

Jesus Himself tells us that the “word of God is to be heard.” HEARD, not read! Why is this?

Mt. 13: 14 “With them indeed is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah, which says: 'You shall indeed hear but never understand, and you shall indeed see but never perceive. For this people’s heart has grown dull, and their ears are heavy of hearing, and their eyes they have closed, lest they should perceive with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, ’ But blessed are your eyes, for they see, and your ears, for they hear”
**
Jn. 8: 47 ”** He who is of God hears the words of God; the reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God." [Meaning not ungodly, but not obedient to my teaching.]

**Acts 15: 6 **“The apostles and the elders were gathered together to consider this matter. And after there had been much debate, Peter rose and said to them, "Brethren, you know that in the early days God made choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe.”

Judith 8: 17 “Therefore, while we wait for his deliverance, let us call upon him to help us, and he will hear our voice, if it pleases him.” [If he grants understanding?]
**
1 Thess.1: 5** “for our gospel came to you not only in word, but also in power and in the Holy Spirit and with full conviction.”

There is no ambiguity, to lack of clarity here. And that is precisely why Protestants have mushroomed into over 30,000 different sects in a few hundred years, each with there own understanding, there own interpretation of God’s Sacred Scripture. And God will not stop this growth rooted in grievous error and disobedience until He is HEARD and listened to.

That is why Catholics cannot apply their own understanding. Everything we share must conform to the Teaching Authority that Christ set up within His Catholic Church.

2 Cor. 4: 2 “We have renounced disgraceful, underhanded ways; we refuse to practice cunning or to tamper with God’s word, but by the open statement of the truth we would commend ourselves to every man’s conscience in the sight of God. And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled only to those who are perishing.”

---

Perhaps recognizing the Bible as the “Mission Statement” of the Catholic Church, as God intends it, is a better way to view it?***

The Bible is far more complex than any Mystery novel, and throughout thousands of years not one verse contradicts another. Truly this is Divinely Inspired authorship. And it’s truths can only “be heard” in the light of other truth. God Himself has ordained that on all matters of Faith and or Morals, that thee single truth reside within the confines of His One Church, where the Holy Spirit, God Himself, assures and explains His truth.

Telling God what he means, rather than hearing what God means, puts one at great and unnecessary risk.

Love and prayers,

Pat

 

[Libertarian_FL]

2 Corinthians 1:1 This letter is from Paul, chosen by the will of God to be an apostle of Christ Jesus, and from our brother Timothy.
I am writing to God’s church in Corinth and to all of his holy people throughout Greece.*

1 Thessalonians 1:1 This letter is from Paul, Silas,* and Timothy.
We are writing to the church in Thessalonica, to you who belong to God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
May God give you grace and peace.

Philemon 1:2 and to our sister Apphia, and to our fellow soldier Archippus, and to the church that meets in your* house.

Galatians 1:2 All the brothers and sisters* here join me in sending this letter to the churches of Galatia.

Just these four passages read Four Churches unless you dispute the term Church used in each text. Now it is true Paul did visit these but all had unique leadership structures that didn’t answer to a main church as the Roman Catholic Church wants to point out. Not to mention references to other Churches in Rome and Jerusalem etc.

 

[Libertarian_FL]

Sorry t comply with the publisher all quotations are NLT.

 

[Justy90]

The Holy Spirit has always spoken through human authorities.

In the Old Testament the Holy Spirit spoke through Abraham, Moses, and the Prophets. In the New Testament, the Holy Spirit spoke through Christ. In modern times, the Holy Spirit speaks through Christ’s Church, which He set up with Peter at its head as the first Pope, and the rest of the Apostles, and the Bishops, together with the faithful.

The Holy Spirit goes where it wishes, it is not steered by the Catholic church.

 

[JRKH]

Anna, allow me please to try to add a bit of perspective to your concerns.

Please don’t take any of my comments personally or as a criticism. I tend to be pragmatic.

(Snip)

History attest that from the time of Christ Death on the Cross-until the first Protestant church came into being was just shot of 1,600 years. {King Henry the Eight in the late 1,500’s, Church of England.} So simple logic affirms that whenever the Bible speaks of “the Church” it was specifically limiting itself to the Catholic Church. The Terms “Catholic and Christian” of which neither appear in the Bible because they were yet “to be invented and used,” is but an excuse not founded on logic.

The Bible was completed shortly before the end of the “First Century” and there is evidence of both of these terms being used shortly their after.[20/30 years.] St. Ignatius in the year 107 AD, for example.

(Snip)
Pat

Pat,
As a point of clarification and correction, to your very fine post. The term Christian DOES appear in the Bible in two places. Acts 26:28 and 1Peter 4:16.

Peace
James

 

[JRKH]

2 Corinthians 1:1 This letter is from Paul, chosen by the will of God to be an apostle of Christ Jesus, and from our brother Timothy.
I am writing to God’s church in Corinth and to all of his holy people throughout Greece.*

1 Thessalonians 1:1 This letter is from Paul, Silas,* and Timothy.
We are writing to the church** in **Thessalonica, to you who belong to God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
May God give you grace and peace.

Philemon 1:2 and to our sister Apphia, and to our fellow soldier Archippus, and to the church that meets in your* house.

Galatians 1:2 All the brothers and sisters* here join me in sending this letter to the churches of Galatia.

Just these four passages read Four Churches unless you dispute the term Church used in each text. Now it is true Paul did visit these but all had unique leadership structures that didn’t answer to a main church as the Roman Catholic Church wants to point out. Not to mention references to other Churches in Rome and Jerusalem etc.

Are you saying that these are 4 doctrinally independent Churches Or four locations of the same Church? Do you think that these 4 Church locations that Paul is writing to tech different doctrines?
That it is possible that the Church meeting at Apphia’s house might believe that the Eucharist is only a symbolic presense of Christ, while the Church in Galatia teaches that the Eucharist is the REAL Presence? That the Church in Corinth teaches that infants should not be baptized while the Chuch in Thessalonica teaches that infants should be baptized?

What do you think St Paul’s reaction would be to such differences in teaching?

My point being that just because St Paul addresses each church by the name of it’s location does not mean they were doctrinally independent Churches. I could be talking to someone and say, “I grew up in St Michael’s in Chicago, but now attend St Thomas in Cincinnati”. Does this mean I am attending a different Church or just a different location of the same Church?
The Council of Jerusalem in Acts 15 should give you a clue that the Churches in different locations looked to the Authority of “The Apostolic Church” to resolve doctrinal issues.

Peace
James

 

[JRKH]

The Holy Spirit goes where it wishes, it is not steered by the Catholic church.

This is certainly true.
The Catholic Church does not steer the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit Steers the Catholic Church.
How odd that you would think it was otherwise.

Peace
James

 

[PRmerger]

The Holy Spirit goes where it wishes, it is not steered by the Catholic church.

That is a very Catholic statement you just made!

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

CHESTERTONRULES:

Hey, so nice that you followed the link.

This issue of doctrine and authority of the Church is very serious.

When you come across my Posts, it doesn’t take long to see that I am struggling in the Protestant Sector.

Yet, making that leap into Catholicism requires the acceptance of an entirely different way of understanding Christianity. Having spent my 54 years in the Protestant Sector; the idea of relinquishing authority is extremely difficult—even though I am painfully aware of all the divisions within Protestantism.

I’m here. So, that does say something about my search.

Anna

Searching is good as long as you are trying to get closer to God.

As a convert, I can say with assurance:

Come on in, the water’s fine! (and Holy!!)

 

[Anna_Scott]

Searching is good as long as you are trying to get closer to God.

As a convert, I can say with assurance:

Come on in, the water’s fine! (and Holy!!)

CHESTERTONRULES:

Your invitation is very kind.

Anna

 

[PJM]

=Libertarian_FL;5718441]2 Corinthians 1:1 This letter is from Paul, chosen by the will of God to be an apostle of Christ Jesus, and from our brother Timothy.
I am writing to God’s church in Corinth and to all of his holy people throughout Greece.*

1 Thessalonians 1:1 This letter is from Paul, Silas,* and Timothy.
We are writing to the church in Thessalonica, to you who belong to God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
May God give you grace and peace.

Philemon 1:2 and to our sister Apphia, and to our fellow soldier Archippus, and to the church that meets in your* house.

Galatians 1:2 All the brothers and sisters* here join me in sending this letter to the churches of Galatia.

Just these four passages read Four Churches unless you dispute the term Church used in each text. Now it is true Paul did visit these but all had unique leadership structures that didn’t answer to a main church as the Roman Catholic Church wants to point out. Not to mention references to other Churches in Rome and Jerusalem etc.

Two points, though seperate in geography they held all common bleiefs, and practices.

Do a Bible “word search” on the term “The [SINGULAR] Church.” I did and it appears 37 times.

Sorry to spoil your fun.

 

[Anna_Scott]

. . . The OT was collected by early church Fathers [keep in mind there was only the One Church.] And the entire New Testament is “eye witness” accounts by [the Catholic Apostles and authors] of the life of Christ and travels of Saint Paul. Quite simply the Bible has to be a Catholic book or there would be no bible at all.

. . . .And why did the Catholic Church refuse to publish it in “common language” until forced to do so by Luther, as to try to blunt the amount of ERROR that no doubt would be added to the Kings James Bible.

Granted, the KJV contains many errors and was translated from inferior manuscripts.

I think it would be very difficult to prove that the CC refused to publish the Bible in “common language” in order to “blunt the amount of error.”

According to the Bible Translation Guide (Faith Tab-this site,) the recommended Bible translation for Catholics, is the Revised Standard Version-Catholic Edition.
Link: catholic.com/library/Bible_Translations_Guide.asp

Ironically, the RSV is a Protestant Bible Translation, adopted by the Catholic Church, edited for Catholic use (very few changes were made,) and reissued by Ignatius Press under the title “The Ignatius Bible.”

**Quote from Introduction to the Catholic Edition of the Revised Standard Version, found in the The Catholic Comparative New Testament:
**
“For four hundred years, following upon the great upheaval of the Reformation, Catholics and Protestants have gone their separate ways and suspected each other’s translations of the Bible of having been in some way manipulated in the interests of doctrinal presuppositions. It must be admitted that these suspicions were not always without foundation. At the present time, however, the sciences of textual criticism and philology, not to mention others, have made such great advances that the Bible text used by translators is substantially the same for all–Protestants and Catholics alike.”

This edition of the Revised Standard Version of the Bible has been prepared for the use of Catholics by a committee of the Catholic Biblical Association of Great Britain.** It is published with ecclesiastical approval and by agreement with the Standard Bible Committee and the Division of Christian Education of the National Council of the Churches of Christ in the United States**. . . . "

. . . Jesus Himself tells us that the “word of God is to be heard.” HEARD, not read! Why is this?

I’m not sure that means the written word should only be in the hands of the Leadership in the Catholic Church and not the common man. Obviously, that is not the case today. The Catholic Church approves a number of English Bible Translations for use by the “common man.”

If I recall correctly, the literacy rate, at the time of N.T. authors, was only about 10%. Even within the 10%, some who could read, could not necessarily write. So, the early Church would have had someone read the Letters of Paul, etc. to them. Oral transmission preceded written Scripture. When the N.T. Books/Letters were finally penned, they circulated separately. A literate Church member would read to the largely-illiterate congregation.

. . .And that is precisely why Protestants have mushroomed into over 30,000 different sects in a few hundred years, each with there own understanding, there own interpretation of God’s Sacred Scripture. And God will not stop this growth rooted in grievous error and disobedience until He is HEARD and listened to.

This is a very misleading number. You would have to review the methodology used to arrive at that number to understand the statistical significance.

This idea of different belief systems is being discussed on Thread: How many different Beliefs Systems are there within Post Reformation Western Christianity?, started by JRKH, at this link: forums.catholic-questions.org/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=5264870.

. . .That is why Catholics cannot apply their own understanding. Everything we share must conform to the Teaching Authority that Christ set up within His Catholic Church.

This idea is expressed often. Yet, does the Catholic Church claim infallible interpretation of Scripture? Maybe I have misunderstood the following article in the Catholic Encyclopedia:

Link: oce.catholic.com/index.php?title=Biblical_Commission

"Biblical Commission, the, a committee of cardinals at Rome who, with the assistance of consultors, have to secure the observance of the prescriptions contained in the Encyclical “Providentissimus Deus” for the proper interpretation and defense of Sacred Scripture. Its official name is “Commissio Pontificia de re biblica”. It was formally established by the Apostolic letter of Leo XIII, “Vigilantiae”, October 30, 1902. "

See Authority of its Decisions, which states that even “decisions approved by the Pope”; “are not infallible or unchangeable.”

. . . “Its decisions are approved by the pope and published by his command. Such approval, when given in forma communi, does not change the nature of the decisions as emanating from a Congregation or Commission, nor does it make them specifically pontifical acts; much less does it imply an exercise of the pope’s personal prerogative of infallibility. Hence they are not infallible or unchangeable, though they must be received with obedience and interior assent, by which we judge that the doctrine proposed is safe and to be accepted because of the authority by which it is presented.”

. .The Bible is far more complex than any Mystery novel, and throughout thousands of years not one verse contradicts another. Truly this is Divinely Inspired authorship. And it’s truths can only “be heard” in the light of other truth. God Himself has ordained that on all matters of Faith and or Morals, that thee single truth reside within the confines of His One Church, where the Holy Spirit, God Himself, assures and explains His truth.

I agree that the Bible contains divine inspiration; however, there are actually many contradictions–but that would be a topic for another Thread.

Since we do not have any known autographs; Biblical Scholars must work with more than 5,000 N.T. manuscripts and try to determine which, of the many variants, are most likely to be the original words. New manuscripts continue to be discovered. So, this is an ongoing endeavor. I do believe that God’s truth does and will prevail.

. . .Telling God what he means, rather than hearing what God means, puts one at great and unnecessary risk.

I agree.

Anna

 

[PRmerger]

This is a very misleading number. You would have to review the methodology used to arrive at that number to understand the statistical significance. This idea of different belief systems is being discussed at this link:
http://forums.catholic-questions.org/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=5264870 by JRKH.

Anna, I am on that thread as well, and my understanding from that discussion is that the 30,000 denomination statistic is quite accurate–in fact, it *under-*estimates the number of denominations that have arisen from assuming that the HS inspires the Bible-reader to understand doctrine.

 

[Anna_Scott]

Anna, I am on that thread as well, and my understanding from that discussion is that the 30,000 denomination statistic is quite accurate–in fact, it *under-*estimates the number of denominations that have arisen from assuming that the HS inspires the Bible-reader to understand doctrine.

Are the 30,000 “Denominations” named? i.e. Baptist, Lutheran, etc.

I would like to see that list.

Anna

 

[PRmerger]

Are the 30,000 “Denominations” named? i.e. Baptist, Lutheran, etc.

I would like to see that list.

Anna

Here’s some…and check out this website to see the rest, for, obviously, I can’t list the 30,000 on this post.

(quoted from the above website)
Independents (about 22,000 denominations)

Let’s deal with these first, since this is the largest mega-bloc (22000+ “denominations” of the total 33000+). These are broken down into various large groups, and their lists and numbers span from the bottom of page 16, through page 17, and most of page 18. I’m not going to type all of these since the list is quite long – much longer than any of the groupings in the other mega-blocs which are listed below in full. I will quote a major sampling of these “Independent” Christian groups, and still try to cover the whole list:

African Independent Apostolic
Black American Apostolic
Filipino Apostolic
Indian Apostolic
another 8 groups have “Apostolic”
African Independent Charismatic
Black American Charismatic
Chinese Charismatic
another 14 groups have “Charismatic” or “Neocharismatic”
African Independent Full Gospel
Black American Full Gospel
Chinese Full Gospel
another 10 groups have “Full Gospel”
three have something-“grassroots”
another 20 groups have “house-church network” or “cell-based network”
five have “Messianic”-something
another 14 are something-“neocharismatic”
another 12 are something-“Oneness pentecostal”
another 18 are something-“pentecostal”
another 12 are something-“radio/TV believers [or “network”]” (i.e. the “pastor” for these independent Christians is some personality on radio or TV)
final 2 on page 17 are something-“Spiritual”
then we have a couple deliverence/pentecostal groups
Word of Faith / Prosperity groups
a couple of “mixed traditions”
some “Zionist” groups
Independent Anglicans or Anglo-Catholic groups in both Catholic and Protestant directions
Independent Adventists
apocalyptic or eschatological (“end times”) groups
Independent Baptists
British-Israelites
Hidden Buddhist believers in Christ
some Independent Orthodox groups
independent Christian Brethren (Plymouth Brethren)
schismatic Conservative Catholics
Independent Congregational, Congregationalists
Independent Disciple, Restorationist, Christian
Independent Dunkers (Tunker, Dipper)
Independent Exclusive Brethren (Closed, Strict)
episcopi vagantes (“wandering” bishops-at-large, very small under 100 members)
Independent Estonian Orthodox
Independent Anglican Evangelical
Independent Fundamentalist
Gay/Lesbian homosexual tradition (i.e. so-called “gay churches” such as Metropolitan Community Churches)
Independent Greek Orthodox
Hidden Hindu believers in Christ
Holiness or Conservative Methodist (non-Pentecostal)
Independent Hungarian Orthodox
Independent Jehovah’s Witnesses
Messianic, Jewish-Christian congregations
Independent “Latin-rite” Catholics
Independent “Liberal” Catholics (Theosophical, Masonic, Gnostic)
another seven Independent Protestant or Orthodox churches
Hidden Muslim believers in Christ
Independent Assyrian or Nestorian
No-Church Movement
Non-denominational (no church or anti-church groups)
Old Believer, Old Ritualist
Old Catholics (i.e. split from Rome after Vatican Council I)
Old Calendarist (Authentic Orthodox)
various schisms from Orthodoxy, in Protestant directions
Orthodox sect/sectarian
Independent Friends (Quakers)
three indy “Reformed” groups (Anglican, Catholic, Orthodox)
more Independent Reformed or Orthodox
Independent Spiritualist, spiritists, occultists
Traditionalist Anglicans
True Orthodox (Conservative Russian Orthodox)
Independent Ukrainian Orthodox
United church (various united bodies)
community church or union congregation
ethnic or monoethnic denominations
independent evangelicals (dispensationalist)
marginal independent Christian (Black / Third-World)
isolated radio churches (unorganized)
single autonomous congregations
Whew!

While the World Christian Encyclopedia does refer to “only” 9000 or so denominations as “Protestant” the source also includes 22,000 or so denominations as “Independent” and if you look at the names of these “Independent” groups above, you’ll see most of them are clearly Protestant (the “Apostolic”, the “Charismatic”, the “Full Gospel”, the house or home churches, the pentecostals, probably all the TV/radio Christians, and all the independents of other Protestant denominations listed, etc). None of these are Catholic or Orthodox, but there appear to be some renegade Orthodox, Anglicans, and schismatic Catholics among the “Independents.” The largest of these Independent Christians are “White-led charismatic” (17,478,000 members [year 1995], in 2856 separate denominations [year 2000]), “African independent pentecostal” (18,943,000 members [year 1995], in 5385 separate denominations [year 2000]), and “African neocharismatic of mixed traditions” (1,500,000 members [year 1995], in 3333 separate denominations [year 2000]). These three are all Protestant (neither Catholic, nor Orthodox) and account for more than half (53%) of the 22,000 “Independent” denominations.

Another section of these “Independents” with a decent number of denominations include (ordered by smallest to largest denominations, year 2000):

65 Filipino Charismatic
70 Chinese neocharismatic
71 Chinese Charismatic
78 Black American pentecostal
82 Holiness (Conservative Methodist, non-pentecostal)
86 Afro-Caribbean Oneness pentecostal
92 Latin American Charismatic
92 Anglican/Independent Evangelical
92 Independent Methodist
95 Indian pentecostal
96 African Oneness pentecostal
96 marginal independent (Black/Third World)
99 White-led Oneness pentecostal
102 Arab Charismatic
133 Black American Oneness pentecostal
133 Independent Disciple, Restorationist, Christian
136 Independent Reformed, Presbyterian
158 Zionist African Independent
167 Korean pentecostal (mixed traditions)
177 Indonesian pentecostal
208 New/Old Apostolic, Catholic Apostolic (Irvingite, an Anglican / Presbyterian / Adventist sect)
221 Brazilian/Portuguese pentecostal
225 ethnic or monoethnic denomination
226 White-led Full Gospel
236 Nondenominational (no church or anti-church)
271 Independent Baptist
281 Latin American grassroots
281 Filipino neocharismatic
300 Brazilian grassroots
343 Afro-Caribbean pentecostal
439 African Independent Spiritual
475 Indian Charismatic
609 African Independent Charismatic
644 Latin American pentecostal
805 single autonomous congregations
813 White-led pentecostal

 

[PRmerger]

Again, from the cited website:

Protestants (about 9000 denominations)

The second largest group of “denominations” are Protestants. The encyclopedia breaks these down into major groupings like this:

Adventist
Baptist
Christian Brethren (Plymouth Brethren, Open only)
Congregational, Congregationalist
Disciple, Restorationist, Restorationist Baptist, Christian
Dunker (Tunker), Dipper, German Baptist, Brethren
Exclusive Brethren (Plymouth Brethren, Closed, Strict)
Anglican Evangelical, Independent Evangelical
Fundamentalist
Holiness (Conservative Methodist, Wesleyan, Free Methodist)
Lutheran / Reformed united church or joint mission
Lutheran
Mennonite, Anabaptist (Left Wing or Radical Reformation)
Methodist (mainline Methodist, United Methodist)
Moravian (Continental Pietist)
Nondenominational (no church or anti-church groups)
Oneness-Pentecostal or Unitarian-Pentecostal: Jesus Only
Baptistic-Pentecostal or Keswick-Pentecostal
Holiness-Pentecostal: 3-crisis-experience
Apostolic, or Pentecostal Apostolic (living apostles)
Pentecostal (Protestant; Classical Pentecostal)
Friends (Quaker)
Reformed, Presbyterian
Salvationist (Salvation Army)
United church (union of bodies of different traditions)
Waldensian
community church or union congregation

 

[jmcrae]

Are the 30,000 “Denominations” named? i.e. Baptist, Lutheran, etc.

I would like to see that list.

Anna

I consider it a useless number to bandy around. We don’t know how many Protestant groups there are, because we don’t really know what we are counting. We could count the number of heads of denominations, but then we would be leaving out a lot of Anabaptist denominations, because they don’t have any kind of formal leadership structure - but they are certainly distinct from one another - Amish is not just another word for Hutterite - these are two distinctly different belief systems; thus, two different denominations.

I think in order to make an accurate count you would have to interview each and every Protestant leader, individually, and get his perspective on how he fits in to the bigger picture. And you’d still come out with an inaccurate number because of the ones who say, “Well, I’m just a Christian. I don’t consider myself part of a man-made organization” - while sweeping out his man-made church building, and setting out his woman-made bulletin inserts, to get ready to welcome his congregation - all of whom were invited by human members of the evangelism outreach team.

 

[wisdomseeker]

2 Corinthians 1:1 This letter is from Paul, chosen by the will of God to be an apostle of Christ Jesus, and from our brother Timothy.
I am writing to God’s church in Corinth and to all of his holy people throughout Greece.*

1 Thessalonians 1:1 This letter is from Paul, Silas,* and Timothy.
We are writing to the church in Thessalonica, to you who belong to God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
May God give you grace and peace.

Philemon 1:2 and to our sister Apphia, and to our fellow soldier Archippus, and to the church that meets in your* house.

Galatians 1:2 All the brothers and sisters* here join me in sending this letter to the churches of Galatia.

Just these four passages read Four Churches unless you dispute the term Church used in each text. Now it is true Paul did visit these but all had unique leadership structures that didn’t answer to a main church as the Roman Catholic Church wants to point out. Not to mention references to other Churches in Rome and Jerusalem etc.

are you serious?

the Church is one. the Church is everywhere. One Church lead by the leaders.
you know just like today. the holy father writes letters to the Church in Brasil, USA, and in every country. although in every part of the world she is One Church.

that is how the the Truth of our Lord is spreaded. throught the Church everywhere. although many, she is still One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church. the same faith, same HS, same teachings, all connected. we are not brazilian Catholics or American Catholics or whatever. we are Catholics period. no matter where we are. we are one Nation although spreaded throughout the world, we are One.

 

[Anna_Scott]

This number is for all Christian Denominations, including 242 Roman Catholic Denominations.

Aren’t they counting the denominations within each country separately; even though the same Denominations exist in other countries?

Link: bringyou.to/apologetics/a106.htm
“The source does refer to 33000+ total “Christian” denominations, but it defines the word “denomination” as an organized Christian group within a specific country:”

Roman Catholics (242 denominations)

Now for the “Roman Catholic” denominations. These appear to be broken down by various rites:

* Armenian (Eastern-rite Catholic)
* Bulgarian (Byzantine rite)
* St. Patrick's Cathedral, New YorkByzantine-rite (jurisdiction for more than one ethnic group)
* Chaldean (Eastern Syrian rite)
* Coptic (Alexandrian rite)
* Ethiopic (Alexandrian rite)
* Greek (Byzantine rite)
* Hungarian (Byzantine rite)
* Italo-Albanian (Byzantine rite)
* Jurisdiction for both Latin-rite and Eastern-rite Catholics
* Latin-rite Catholic
* Malankara (Syro-Antiochian, Eastern Syrian), Syro-Malankarese
* Maronite (Syro-Antiochian, Western Syrian)
* Melkite (Byzantine, Greek Catholic; Arabic-speaking)
* plural Oriental (jurisdiction for several Eastern rites)
* Romanian Byzantine rite
* Russian (Byzantine rite)
* Ruthenian (Byzantine rite)
* Slovak (Byzantine rite)
* Syro-Malabarese (Eastern Syrian)
* Syrian, Syriac-speaking (Syro-Antiochian, West Syrian)
* Ukrainian Byzantine rite

From these western and smaller eastern rites the encyclopedia gets 242 “Roman Catholic denominations” (year 2000 numbers). The largest is by far the Latin-rite (commonly called “Roman Catholics” by non-Catholic Christians) with 976 million members of the 994 million total members (or 98% of the total, year 1995 numbers). However, since virtually all of these western and smaller eastern rites are in union with the Pope (I am not sure of some of them), there is actually one Catholic Church, not 242 churches or denominations. Based on the encyclopedia’s own definition of “denomination” the editors appear to be separating and counting by country which is how you get to 242 (or 238 countries plus 4) “denominations” of Roman Catholics. The Catholic Church in Canada is not a different “denomination” from the Catholic Church in the U.S., which is not a different Catholic Church from the one in England, etc. If you search the available “World Christian Database” online, there is indeed one Catholic Church in the U.S.A., (see also Barrett, Encyclopedia, volume 1, page 783 for the U.S.A.) and in the world there are indeed 238 “Roman Catholic” denominations (for exactly 238 countries), i.e. one Catholic Church for each country. The same “counting by country” seems to be the case with some of the denominations in the other mega-blocs.

When dividing these “denominations” by country as they do, there are definitely some problems in figuring out the true total “denominations” since many of them are being counted more than once – and in fact 241 times too much in the case of “Roman Catholic” denominations. Barrett’s Encyclopedia states this explicitly:
“As a statistical unit in this Encyclopedia, a 'denomination' always refers to one single country. Thus the Roman Catholic Church, although a single organization, is described here as consisting of 236 denominations in the world's 238 countries.” (Barrett, et al, World Christian Encyclopedia, volume 1, page 27, in the "Glossary" under definition for "Denomination" [later updated to 242], emphasis added)

 

[PRmerger]

This number is for all Christian Denominations, including 242 Roman Catholic Denominations.

Aren’t they counting the denominations within each country separately; even though the same Denominations exist in other countries?

Link: bringyou.to/apologetics/a106.htm
“The source does refer to 33000+ total “Christian” denominations, but it defines the word “denomination” as an organized Christian group within a specific country:”

Roman Catholics (242 denominations)

Now for the “Roman Catholic” denominations. These appear to be broken down by various rites:

* Armenian (Eastern-rite Catholic)
* Bulgarian (Byzantine rite)
* St. Patrick's Cathedral, New YorkByzantine-rite (jurisdiction for more than one ethnic group)
* Chaldean (Eastern Syrian rite)
* Coptic (Alexandrian rite)
* Ethiopic (Alexandrian rite)
* Greek (Byzantine rite)
* Hungarian (Byzantine rite)
* Italo-Albanian (Byzantine rite)
* Jurisdiction for both Latin-rite and Eastern-rite Catholics
* Latin-rite Catholic
* Malankara (Syro-Antiochian, Eastern Syrian), Syro-Malankarese
* Maronite (Syro-Antiochian, Western Syrian)
* Melkite (Byzantine, Greek Catholic; Arabic-speaking)
* plural Oriental (jurisdiction for several Eastern rites)
* Romanian Byzantine rite
* Russian (Byzantine rite)
* Ruthenian (Byzantine rite)
* Slovak (Byzantine rite)
* Syro-Malabarese (Eastern Syrian)
* Syrian, Syriac-speaking (Syro-Antiochian, West Syrian)
* Ukrainian Byzantine rite

From these western and smaller eastern rites the encyclopedia gets 242 “Roman Catholic denominations” (year 2000 numbers). The largest is by far the Latin-rite (commonly called “Roman Catholics” by non-Catholic Christians) with 976 million members of the 994 million total members (or 98% of the total, year 1995 numbers). However, since virtually all of these western and smaller eastern rites are in union with the Pope (I am not sure of some of them), there is actually one Catholic Church, not 242 churches or denominations. Based on the encyclopedia’s own definition of “denomination” the editors appear to be separating and counting by country which is how you get to 242 (or 238 countries plus 4) “denominations” of Roman Catholics. The Catholic Church in Canada is not a different “denomination” from the Catholic Church in the U.S., which is not a different Catholic Church from the one in England, etc. If you search the available “World Christian Database” online, there is indeed one Catholic Church in the U.S.A., (see also Barrett, Encyclopedia, volume 1, page 783 for the U.S.A.) and in the world there are indeed 238 “Roman Catholic” denominations (for exactly 238 countries), i.e. one Catholic Church for each country. The same “counting by country” seems to be the case with some of the denominations in the other mega-blocs.

When dividing these “denominations” by country as they do, there are definitely some problems in figuring out the true total “denominations” since many of them are being counted more than once – and in fact 241 times too much in the case of “Roman Catholic” denominations. Barrett’s Encyclopedia states this explicitly:

“As a statistical unit in this Encyclopedia, a 'denomination' always refers to one single country. Thus the Roman Catholic Church, although a single organization, is described here as consisting of 236 denominations in the world's 238 countries.” (Barrett, et al, World Christian Encyclopedia, volume 1, page 27, in the "Glossary" under definition for "Denomination" [later updated to 242], emphasis added)

Yes, as I stated earlier, this number of 242 Roman Catholic denominations would falsely elevate the number of denominations…so the number is actually 242 less than the final count (which today is 41,027, according to the cited source). Still, it decreases the number of denominations by a miniscule amount.

The rest of the denominations, which may list by countries, say, Korean pentecostal and Indonesian pentecostal are indeed quite accurate. For the Korean pentecostal church and Indonesian pentecostal church have distinctly different central authorities and leadership*–neither is in communion with the other*. Thus, it is correct to count them as 2 separate denominations with separate doctrines.