Protestants, how can this be possible?

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Yes, as I stated earlier, this number of 242 Roman Catholic denominations would falsely elevate the number of denominations…so the number is actually 242 less than the final count (which today is 41,027, according to the cited source). Still, it decreases the number of denominations by a miniscule amount.

The rest of the denominations, which may list by countries, say, Korean pentecostal and Indonesian pentecostal are indeed quite accurate. For the Korean pentecostal church and Indonesian pentecostal church have distinctly different central authorities and leadership*–neither is in communion with the other*. Thus, it is correct to count them as 2 separate denominations with separate doctrines.
You seem to have a much better grasp of the statistical methodology used to calculate the number of denominations. While it is true that some denominations may very in different countries, that is not always the case. Do the statistics reflect the difference?

As for the 242 Catholic Denominations reducing the Protestant Denominations by a miniscule amount; while that is true, I keep hearing Catholics say, even 1 or 2 Protestants Denominations is too many.

The unity in Catholic doctrines is stressed here day, after day. So, do all 242 Catholic Denominations agree on all points of doctrine?

Anna
 
The unity in Catholic doctrines is stressed here day, after day. So, do all 242 Catholic Denominations agree on all points of doctrine?

Anna
Yes, that is what I am trying to say but am muddling it. :o

All 242 Catholic “denominations” are part of the One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church.

To quote from the website (again) that you and I cited: "However, since virtually all of these western and smaller eastern rites* are in union with the Pope *(I am not sure of some of them), there is actually one Catholic Church, not 242 churches or denominations." Source here.

However, all of the other denominations listed are to be counted as separate denominations, for they are not in union with each other. They do not agree on doctrines.
 
The unity in Catholic doctrines is stressed here day, after day. So, do all 242 Catholic Denominations agree on all points of doctrine?

Anna
All 242 of them follow the Pope, and teach what is taught in the Catechism. Someone is counting national Bishops’ conferences as “denominations” but all of them are in full communion with the Pope and subject to the Pope - I could go to a Catholic Church in Italy and it would be the exact same thing as going to the Catholic church that is here in my own neighborhood - I’m equally a member of both of them (which is why it is so weird when Catholic Churches ask “visitors” to stand up - none of us is a “visitor” - we are all equally Catholic).
 
=JRKH;5718861]Pat,
As a point of clarification and correction, to your very fine post. The term Christian DOES appear in the Bible in two places. Acts 26:28 and 1Peter 4:16.
Peace
James
James dear friend thank you. Don’t know how I missed that as I’m no stranger to the Bible.

I had a door to door Baptist Minister knock on my door this morning, so I invited them in and we had a “nice” chat. He told me also about the term being in Acts.

Darn, I hate it when that happens.🤷 😊

Love and prayers,
 
These two quotes are from the Thread: “How many different Beliefs Systems are there within Post Reformation Western Christianity?”
Link: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=342803
. . . .Other than non-denominational communities, all others have definite doctrine the limit the individual’s interpretation of Scripture. They may (or may not) recognize this, but start pushing the right issues and you will find it, hence the Protestant = personal interprtation = false paradigm is itself false.
Anna Scott;5721347:
CDNowak: This is a very insightful point, and as a Protestant, I have found this to be true.

As I’ve said before, I grew up in Southern Baptist Churches (no longer Baptist.) The Doctrines are strict.

A few years ago, Genesis was discussed in a Sunday morning Baptist Bible Class. The leader made it very clear that if we did not believe in the six literal days of creation, “we may have a faith issue.” Everyone sat in their chairs nodding in agreement, except me. Let’s just say, I got into a whole lot of trouble that day. Anna
All 242 of them follow the Pope, and teach what is taught in the Catechism. Someone is counting national Bishops’ conferences as “denominations” but all of them are in full communion with the Pope and subject to the Pope - I could go to a Catholic Church in Italy and it would be the exact same thing as going to the Catholic church that is here in my own neighborhood - I’m equally a member of both of them (which is why it is so weird when Catholic Churches ask “visitors” to stand up - none of us is a “visitor” - we are all equally Catholic).
. . .All 242 Catholic “denominations” are part of the One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church.

To quote from the website (again) that you and I cited: “However, since virtually all of these western and smaller eastern rites* are in union with the Pope ***(I am not sure of some of them), there is actually one Catholic Church, not 242 churches or denominations.” Source here.

However, all of the other denominations listed are to be counted as separate denominations, for they are not in union with each other. They do not agree on doctrines.
PRmerger & jmcrae: Thank you for the clarifications.

**Article from the Catholic Encyclopedia regarding the “Biblical Commission:” **
Link: oce.catholic.com/index.php?title=Biblical_Commission

. . . ."Biblical Commission, the, a committee of cardinals at Rome who, with the assistance of consultors, have to secure the observance of the prescriptions contained in the Encyclical “Providentissimus Deus” for the proper interpretation and defense of Sacred Scripture. Its official name is “Commissio Pontificia de re biblica”. It was formally established by the Apostolic letter of Leo XIII, “Vigilantiae”, October 30, 1902. "

See Authority of its Decisions, which states that even “decisions approved by the Pope”; “are not infallible or unchangeable.”

. . . “Its decisions are approved by the pope and published by his command. Such approval, when given in forma communi, does not change the nature of the decisions as emanating from a Congregation or Commission, nor does it make them specifically pontifical acts; much less does it imply an exercise of the pope’s personal prerogative of infallibility. Hence they are not infallible or unchangeable, though they must be received with obedience and interior assent, by which we judge that the doctrine proposed is safe and to be accepted because of the authority by which it is presented.”
I am trying to understand the Catholic authority in interpretation of Scripture and establishing doctrines.

Some Catholic Forum Members have said they may not completely agree with the CC’s interpretation on everything, but they submit to the authority of Church.

Is this “Biblical Commission” still in effect?

The articles says the decisions are “not infallible or unchangeable, though they must be received with obedience and interior assent, by which we judge that the doctrine proposed is safe and to be accepted because of the authority by which it is presented.”

So, you must submit to the authority of the CC, even though the decisions are not declared to be “infallible or unchangeable.”

Catholics criticize Protestants for holding “false doctrines” derived from “private interpretation.”

If the Catholic Church’s decisions on interpretation and doctrine are “not infallible or unchangeable;” that would open the door to the possibility that a contradicting doctrine in the Protestant Sector might actually be correct.

**I do not quite understand the CC’s “authority” to interpret Scripture; in light of a “disclaimer,” stating the interpretation is “not infallible or unchangeable.” **

Anna
 
So, you must submit to the authority of the CC, even though the decisions are not declared to be “infallible or unchangeable.”
Right - in addition to the charism of infallibility, the Church also has ordinary authority that is on the same level as the authority of your parents, your boss, and your government (all of which also come from God). We don’t expect our parents, our employers, or our governments to be infallible, or to not change their minds from time to time, and yet, the ordinary expectation is that we obey them, even so.

Other than during a rebellious phase in the teenage years, it would not occur to us to simply disobey our parents based on the idea that, “Well, they’re not infallible, so it’s okay to disobey.” No. You obey your parents because God set them in authority over you, for your benefit. In the same way, He created the creative people who establish businesses that create wealth, by which we receive our daily bread, and (unless we have some kind of a death-wish) we don’t normally disobey our bosses, even though we are often quite painfully aware of their shortcomings in the area of fallibility - and the same with our governments - God set our government over us, and we normally obey the laws of our country, unless there is some overriding reason of conscience not to - but in times of peace, we usually pride ourselves on being law-abiding citizens, even though we are perfectly well aware that our government officials are anything but infallible, and even though we know that the laws can be changed when the circumstances seem to make it necessary - very little is actually written in stone.

God has also set the Catholic Church in authority over us (“Whoever hears you, hears Me”) not only in those areas where it is infallible (which is a very limited area) but also in the Ordinary Magisterium, which is the day-to-day operations of the Church.
 
I consider it a useless number to bandy around. We don’t know how many Protestant groups there are, because we don’t really know what we are counting.
That’s the truest thing I have ever heard you say here.
We could count the number of heads of denominations, but then we would be leaving out a lot of Anabaptist denominations, because they don’t have any kind of formal leadership structure - but they are certainly distinct from one another - Amish is not just another word for Hutterite - these are two distinctly different belief systems; thus, two different denominations.

I think in order to make an accurate count you would have to interview each and every Protestant leader, individually, and get his perspective on how he fits in to the bigger picture. And you’d still come out with an inaccurate number because of the ones who say, “Well, I’m just a Christian. I don’t consider myself part of a man-made organization” - while sweeping out his man-made church building, and setting out his woman-made bulletin inserts, to get ready to welcome his congregation - all of whom were invited by human members of the evangelism outreach team. 😉
 
Right - in addition to the charism of infallibility, the Church also has ordinary authority that is on the same level as the authority of your parents, your boss, and your government (all of which also come from God). We don’t expect our parents, our employers, or our governments to be infallible, or to not change their minds from time to time, and yet, the ordinary expectation is that we obey them, even so.

Other than during a rebellious phase in the teenage years, it would not occur to us to simply disobey our parents based on the idea that, “Well, they’re not infallible, so it’s okay to disobey.” No. You obey your parents because God set them in authority over you, for your benefit. In the same way, He created the creative people who establish businesses that create wealth, by which we receive our daily bread, and (unless we have some kind of a death-wish) we don’t normally disobey our bosses, even though we are often quite painfully aware of their shortcomings in the area of fallibility - and the same with our governments - God set our government over us, and we normally obey the laws of our country, unless there is some overriding reason of conscience not to - but in times of peace, we usually pride ourselves on being law-abiding citizens, even though we are perfectly well aware that our government officials are anything but infallible, and even though we know that the laws can be changed when the circumstances seem to make it necessary - very little is actually written in stone.

God has also set the Catholic Church in authority over us (“Whoever hears you, hears Me”) not only in those areas where it is infallible (which is a very limited area) but also in the Ordinary Magisterium, which is the day-to-day operations of the Church.
I understand the idea of the CC’s authority. I have heard it many times on these Forums.

Yes, parents do have authority children. I believe in respecting one’s parents; but sometimes parents are abusive. Parents are not always worthy of the authority they hold over their children.

As adults, our government and employers do not hold authority over our beliefs in God, or the issue of salvation.

**If the Catholic Church’s decisions on interpretation and doctrine are “not infallible or unchangeable;” that would open the door to the possibility that a contradicting doctrine in the Protestant Sector might actually be correct.
**
Having left the Baptist Church, I am searching. I carefully consider what is written here. My goal on the Forums is not to show Catholics that they are wrong or attempt to prove a Protestant religion is right. I am sincerely, and prayerfully seeking God’s truth. So, theoretically; I would be an excellent potential convert to Catholicism.

However, I have not heard or read a convincing argument for the authority claimed by the Catholic Church; especially with a clear Catholic statement, that decisions on interpretation of Scripture are neither “infallible or unchangeable.”

I can find fallibility and changeable doctrines in the Protestant Sector. As we all know, they are plentiful.

Every verse that Catholics quote to prove the authority of the Catholic Church can be interpreted a different way. So, claiming authority, does not demonstrate or prove authority.

Actually it would be much easier to just convert to Catholicism, and simply do as I’m told and accept what I am told to accept. That is very tempting sometimes.

However, in light of a very personal experience with Matthew 16:19, I cannot accept that the only interpretation of that Scripture, is in reference to authority of the Catholic Church.

Praying for God’s Truth,
Anna

See next Post
 
For those who have not read it; this is my experience with Matthew 16:19:
What I am about to share with you is intensely personal. This may be awkward for some of the gentlemen on the Forum, but it is the best way I know to discuss the idea of “binding and loosing;” and, also, asking if Catholic interpretation of authority to “bind and loose,” extends to the individual Christian.

Several years ago, I had a PET Scan (head to knee scan for cancer.) An area of suspicious uptake was found in the thyroid, and in my right breast.

My Oncologist discussed the findings with me, saying he did not think I actually had breast cancer, citing “false positives” with PET Scans.

I began to pray there would be no cancer in my body. This was a very logical prayer.

The doctor changed his mind, and I had biopsies of both the thyroid and the breast–all came back negative for cancer. The breast tissue was even sent to MD Anderson’s Cancer Center for a second opinion. No evidence of cancer was found. My doctor did explain there was still a risk of thyroid cancer. Surgery was immediately scheduled.

I continued to pray to God that there would be no cancer in my body.

One evening, I was flipping through the TV channels trying to find something to watch. I came to a religious channel, and was about to move on (I’ve never been a fan of TV religion); but the words of the minister caught me attention. He was talking about praying for things to be “bound up and cast out.”

I recognized the Scripture: Matthew 16:19 (ESV): 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

Over the next few days; I kept thinking about this passage and the idea of “binding and casting out.” The passage entered my thoughts again and again.

Soon, I began to ask God, “if there is any cancer in my body, please bind it and cast it out.” The words in this prayer seemed to come from beyond my own logic, or inclinations in prayer.

The Pathologist, who had performed the biopsies on my neck and breast, decided I should have a needle-guided, surgical biopsy of the breast. He was not quite certain he had clipped the exact spot of suspicious tissue.

So, I had the needle-guided, surgical biopsy of the breast. One week later, I had a total thyroidectomy. When I was discharged from the hospital, the pathology reports for both the breast and the thyroid were pending.

A few days later, I returned to see the Surgeon who performed the surgical breast biopsy. The pathology report revealed breast cancer. I was stunned by the news.

One week after the total thyroidectomy, I had a lumpectomy of the right breast, removing a wider area of tissue, in case there were any cancer cells remaining—three surgeries, in three weeks. Praise God, the pathology report showed “clean margins”—no cancer in the surrounding breast tissue.

Shortly after the lumpectomy of the breast, I returned for a follow-up visit to see the surgeon who performed the thyroidectomy–no cancer cells were found in the Thyroid. Praise be to God.

Several weeks passed, and slowly I began to regain my strength, as my body healed from three surgeries. I praised God, again and again, for the early detection of breast cancer, and for sparing me the agony of a mastectomy and chemotherapy. I would only need 25 radiation treatments (5 weeks.) I told my family and friends, I was probably the happiest person with breast cancer, you could ever meet.

Though I continued to praise God for all He had done for me, I had forgotten the words of my prayers regarding the breast cancer.

Then one morning, in those first few moments upon awakening, when the voices of the world are still silent, I heard the words of my prayer repeated, “please bind the cancer, and cast it out.”

I realized for the first time, since my surgeries, that the cancer had been “bound.” I had Ductal Carcinoma In Situ, which is a localized cluster of cancer cells that have not penetrated the duct walls into the surrounding tissue. The cancer had not spread beyond the place where it originally developed. The cancer was literally “bound in the duct.”

As I thought of the rest of my prayer, asking that any “cancer be cast out”; I heard these words, “That can be done with a surgeon’s knife, you know.” I praised God with a joyous heart.

I knew, without a doubt, that hearing the words of the “T.V. minister,” who encouraged Christians to pray the words of Matthew 16:19, was not a coincidence. Today, I could not tell you the name of the minister or even his religious affiliation. However, the words in The Gospel of Matthew, will be forever in my heart.

Not only had the prayer been given to me, it had also been answered. The cancer was gone; it was, indeed, “bound and cast out”; and I had been healed.

Scripture tells us that the Spirit helps us in our weakness, and intercedes according to the will of God, when we do not know what to pray as we ought:

Romans 8:26-27 (ESV): 26 Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words. 27 And he who searches hearts knows what is the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.

It has two and a half years, since I completed the treatment for breast cancer. I remain cancer free. I think about this experience, often. It is always with me.

I realized, by the Spirit providing the words to pray—that “the cancer be bound and cast out;” and then answering the prayer by literally binding the cancer in the duct and casting it out with the surgeon’s knife; God’s Name was glorified in so many ways.

The power of God’s Word was demonstrated, as the Scripture came alive, through the Holy Spirit. I realized that just as God is infinite, the power to accomplish His purpose through Holy Scripture must surely be infinite, as well.

Hebrews 4:12 tells us that the “Word of God is living and active.” This experience opened my eyes to this truth.

Hebrews 4:12-13 (ESV): 12For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart. 13And no creature is hidden from his sight, but all are naked and exposed to the eyes of him to whom we must give account.

May God’s Name be Glorified, in the miracles He performs in our lives.

Anna
 
Do these Catholic Denominations all hold the same belief systems/doctrines?
  • Armenian (Eastern-rite Catholic)
  • Bulgarian (Byzantine rite)
  • St. Patrick’s Cathedral, New YorkByzantine-rite (jurisdiction for more than one ethnic group)
  • Chaldean (Eastern Syrian rite)
  • Coptic (Alexandrian rite)
  • Ethiopic (Alexandrian rite)
  • Greek (Byzantine rite)
  • Hungarian (Byzantine rite)
  • Italo-Albanian (Byzantine rite)
  • Jurisdiction for both Latin-rite and Eastern-rite Catholics
  • Latin-rite Catholic
  • Malankara (Syro-Antiochian, Eastern Syrian), Syro-Malankarese
  • Maronite (Syro-Antiochian, Western Syrian)
  • Melkite (Byzantine, Greek Catholic; Arabic-speaking)
  • plural Oriental (jurisdiction for several Eastern rites)
  • Romanian Byzantine rite
  • Russian (Byzantine rite)
  • Ruthenian (Byzantine rite)
  • Slovak (Byzantine rite)
  • Syro-Malabarese (Eastern Syrian)
  • Syrian, Syriac-speaking (Syro-Antiochian, West Syrian)
  • Ukrainian Byzantine rite
Curious,
Anna
We consider the various Churches as, well Churches, not denominations. But the ones in communion with Latin Church (sorry, not familiar enough with all of them to have checked the list, but nothing stood out) do have essentially the same beliefs. There are certainly differences in perspective on some things, but they have been reconciled in that regard.
I set aside non-denom’s because there are nondenominational communities that, by their nature, don’t have any official beliefs.

Several posters have approached this topic from the simplistic Catholic or protestant lens that presumes that all protestants subscribe to a strict policy personal interpretation that always leads them to false doctrines. These assumptions are so flawed as to make the conclusion so absurd that it demeans the one that holds it.
Link: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=342803
 
However, in light of a very personal experience with Matthew 16:19, I cannot accept that the only interpretation of that Scripture, is in reference to authority of the Catholic Church.

Praying for God’s Truth,
Anna

See next Post
The Catholic Church is very open to the idea of multiple interpretations of scripture.

For example, they have no problem accepting that Peter is the rock and the Peter’s confession of faith is also the rock.

Your experience is a remarkable witness for all Christians, but I don’t think it negates other truths contained in Matthew 16.
 
I understand the idea of the CC’s authority. I have heard it many times on these Forums.

Yes, parents do have authority children. I believe in respecting one’s parents; but sometimes parents are abusive. Parents are not always worthy of the authority they hold over their children.

As adults, our government and employers do not hold authority over our beliefs in God, or the issue of salvation.

**If the Catholic Church’s decisions on interpretation and doctrine are “not infallible or unchangeable;” that would open the door to the possibility that a contradicting doctrine in the Protestant Sector might actually be correct.
**
Having left the Baptist Church, I am searching. I carefully consider what is written here. My goal on the Forums is not to show Catholics that they are wrong or attempt to prove a Protestant religion is right. I am sincerely, and prayerfully seeking God’s truth. So, theoretically; I would be an excellent potential convert to Catholicism.

However, I have not heard or read a convincing argument for the authority claimed by the Catholic Church; especially with a clear Catholic statement, that decisions on interpretation of Scripture are neither “infallible or unchangeable.”

I can find fallibility and changeable doctrines in the Protestant Sector. As we all know, they are plentiful.

Every verse that Catholics quote to prove the authority of the Catholic Church can be interpreted a different way. So, claiming authority, does not demonstrate or prove authority.

Actually it would be much easier to just convert to Catholicism, and simply do as I’m told and accept what I am told to accept. That is very tempting sometimes.

However, in light of a very personal experience with Matthew 16:19, I cannot accept that the only interpretation of that Scripture, is in reference to authority of the Catholic Church.

Praying for God’s Truth,
Anna

See next Post
Anna,
It can be frustrating that there is no absolutely clear document from the Apostolic era that sets for the visible structure of “The Church”. We have clues and hints and “evidence” but no “organization chart” as to were. Yet we see in the very early Church those “embrionic” characteristics that the Church has today.
You are right. Every Scripture can be interpreted multiple ways and has been. However, that does not mean that when the author set that scripture down he had more than one meaning in mind. Such meaning must be the same from the earliest times. That is why St Paul famously says that it is "The Church. and not “scripture” or “the individual” that is the “Pillar adn foundation of Truth”, and that “Some will Twist Scripture to their own destruction” and why Christ told us ot “Tell it to the Church”.
This is why, not only must we look at the Bible scripures, but we ned to take a look at early Church history. The Early church(es) communicated with each other and even met in council to assure that “dis-ease” causing issues were resolved and the Church taught consistant doctrine. individuals, groups, and regions of the Church developed their own “devotional life” which is fine up to a point. That point is where two different “devotions” contradict each other. At this point the Authority of “The Church” comes into play to determine which is correct and which is not, or even which parts of devotion “A” is correct and which parts of devotion “B” is correct for sometimes each side can pocess good doctrine in a flawed devotion.
(Please note that I am not sure is “devotion” is the best term to use here but I could not think of a better term.)
I cannot think of a stronger “physical” evidence for the authority of the Catholic Church than this. That she is shown to exist from the earliest times, and that from the earliest times, she has met in council to assure that she taught consistant doctrine, and resolve andy issues that needed defining.

No Protestant Church can make such a claim. At least not over even a fraction of the time that the Catholic Church can. Even the early founders of the Protestants could not come together and hammer out their differences. If they had, perhaps there could be grounds for saying that the Holy Spirit", the “Spirit of the One Truth of God”, was working through them. Unfortunately this was not the case. Each went their own way, fully united only in their rejection of the Catholic Church.

Place the Councilior history and Doctrinal history of the Catholic Church up against the Councilior and Doctrinal history of the Protestants and see how they compare. Then ask yourself which demonstrates a spirit of Unity and Humility, and which demonstrates a spirit of Pride.

Once you do make the decision to come into the Catholic Church, you will come to see how often, when the Church was getting off course, God raised up someone WITHIN the Church to make a course correction. St Francis of Asissi, and St Catherine of Sienna are but two examples. These persons, through their example, through their writings, through their lives, were able to shame those who were too worldy, and effect great change and reenergize the Church toward Holiness.
Perhaps it wouldn’t be a bad idea to read up on some of this part of Church history. The Lives of some of the Saints.
Can anyone recommend any good reading in this regard? How God “Reformed” His Church from within?

I’m sorry for the rambling, it is late and I am tired. I just felt the need to respond to you.

Peace
James
 
Anna,
It can be frustrating that there is no absolutely clear document from the Apostolic era that sets for the visible structure of “The Church”. We have clues and hints and “evidence” but no “organization chart” as to were. Yet we see in the very early Church those “embrionic” characteristics that the Church has today.
You are right. Every Scripture can be interpreted multiple ways and has been. However, that does not mean that when the author set that scripture down he had more than one meaning in mind. Such meaning must be the same from the earliest times. That is why St Paul famously says that it is "The Church. and not “scripture” or “the individual” that is the “Pillar adn foundation of Truth”, and that “Some will Twist Scripture to their own destruction” and why Christ told us ot “Tell it to the Church”.
This is why, not only must we look at the Bible scripures, but we ned to take a look at early Church history. The Early church(es) communicated with each other and even met in council to assure that “dis-ease” causing issues were resolved and the Church taught consistant doctrine. individuals, groups, and regions of the Church developed their own “devotional life” which is fine up to a point. That point is where two different “devotions” contradict each other. At this point the Authority of “The Church” comes into play to determine which is correct and which is not, or even which parts of devotion “A” is correct and which parts of devotion “B” is correct for sometimes each side can pocess good doctrine in a flawed devotion.
(Please note that I am not sure is “devotion” is the best term to use here but I could not think of a better term.)
I cannot think of a stronger “physical” evidence for the authority of the Catholic Church than this. That she is shown to exist from the earliest times, and that from the earliest times, she has met in council to assure that she taught consistant doctrine, and resolve andy issues that needed defining.

No Protestant Church can make such a claim. At least not over even a fraction of the time that the Catholic Church can. Even the early founders of the Protestants could not come together and hammer out their differences. If they had, perhaps there could be grounds for saying that the Holy Spirit", the “Spirit of the One Truth of God”, was working through them. Unfortunately this was not the case. Each went their own way, fully united only in their rejection of the Catholic Church.

Place the Councilior history and Doctrinal history of the Catholic Church up against the Councilior and Doctrinal history of the Protestants and see how they compare. Then ask yourself which demonstrates a spirit of Unity and Humility, and which demonstrates a spirit of Pride.

Once you do make the decision to come into the Catholic Church, you will come to see how often, when the Church was getting off course, God raised up someone WITHIN the Church to make a course correction. St Francis of Asissi, and St Catherine of Sienna are but two examples. These persons, through their example, through their writings, through their lives, were able to shame those who were too worldly, and effect great change and reenergize the Church toward Holiness.
Perhaps it wouldn’t be a bad idea to read up on some of this part of Church history. The Lives of some of the Saints.
Can anyone recommend any good reading in this regard? How God “Reformed” His Church from within?

I’m sorry for the rambling, it is late and I am tired. I just felt the need to respond to you.

Peace
James
You are not rambling. I know it is late and you must be very tired, with all the demands on your time.

I appreciate all that you said.

Ironically, I am not a fan of Luther or Calvin. At the same time, it seems very clear that the Catholic Church was in need of reform. I do acknowledge that the CC did much to correct its course.

I would not say the Holy Spirit", the “Spirit of the One Truth of God,” is not at work in any Protestant Church.

Looking back through history, the Catholic Church committed its share of sins against humanity; and so did Luther and other reformers, for that matter. The violence throughout the history of Christianity has always been disturbing to me.

I have witnessed and experienced the power of the Holy Spirit in so many important and profound ways during the years. So, I can’t be that far off course. I can’t imagine God intervening in my life so many times, over so many years, if I am entirely outside of His Truth.

I have studied history of the early church fathers, and found a surprising number of conflicting beliefs and doctrines. I have not found a direct line of consistent doctrines.

As we know from the N.T. writings, disagreements and heresies sprang up quickly, within the early Church. There were many early Christian Sects, such as Gnosticism, Montanism, Marcionism, etc.

Maybe if you could direct me to the names of those in Apostolic Succession, that would help. Then, I would have something concrete to study. I did find this link: iclnet.org/pub/resources/christian-history.html#fathers. Is this the list the Catholic Church considers to be the Church fathers?

I welcome any books, references, etc.

It’s 2:35 a.m. here, so I’m signing off for now.

Anna
 
The Catholic Church is very open to the idea of multiple interpretations of scripture.

For example, they have no problem accepting that Peter is the rock and the Peter’s confession of faith is also the rock.

Your experience is a remarkable witness for all Christians, but I don’t think it negates other truths contained in Matthew 16.
I’m not saying that my experience negates other interpretations of Mathew 16:19.

As a result of that experience, I would say, without a doubt, the authority to “bind or loose” was somehow extended to me through the Holy Spirit, and I was given a prayer which accomplished a healing, for a cancer that was an “incidental finding.” So, it must apply to individuals, calling upon this authority in the name of Christ, and not just the leadership of the Catholic Church.

Anna
 
Statistics show the number of Protestant secs at well in excess of 30,000!

I am befuddled, confused, bewildered how this can be a fact [a rapidly growing fact] and yet it does not seem to register with non-Catholics that something is obviously wrong.

I am very sincere in not being able to comprehend the lack of concern that seems to indicate that this is fine, it’s somehow God’s Will. There can only be ONE truth on any particular issue. So how can this be:shrug:

I do not mean this as a disparagement of any type. I simply am confounded that this does not raise a “red flag” and questions? Can you enlighten me?

I have been faithfully answeing your questions for more more than a year. Help me out here:rolleyes:

Love and prayers,
Pat
Hi PJM,

The two points I would like to make is 1) these congregations are not breaking away from the Catholic Church. These self-proclaimed congregations are splitting from other self-proclaimed churches.

The Reformation separated from the Church. To name a few - Lutheran, Anglican, Presbyterian, Methodist. From these came all the 30,000 individual congregations. These protestants are protesting other protestants. The original reformists already had broke away from the Church.
  1. The way the individual churches were counted is that each country has a separate count of its churches from the next country (eg. USA Roman Catholics, the Great Britain Catholics,The French Catholics…even though this is one Church, the Stats book counts them as three separate Churches when in fact they are one)
Have a blesed day.

jpaul1953
 
There can only be ONE truth on any particular issue. So how can this be:shrug:

I do not mean this as a disparagement of any type. I simply am confounded that this does not raise a “red flag” and questions? Can you enlighten me?
Well we have stopped burning for people for heresy, so if a few hundred push off and proclaim themselves “the only true Christians,” there is not a lot we can do about it.
 
I ran a thread here on trying to determine Actual Doctrinal Belief Systems in order to get a more accurate number of “Different Denominations” and came up with a number somewhat under 200. The Thread Is Here
If you look about halfway down page two you’ll see taht we came up with about 17 different criteria. Of course this is merely a “Straw-poll” type of thing, but it clearly demonstrates a fallicy in the whole 30,000 number that keeps being tossed about.

That being said, even one split in His Church is wounding to Christ.

So many sins He had to bear - Even that one - That His children should fight and be splintered and estranged to each other.

Peace
James
I live in a small town–less than 30,000. There are close to 100 churches–most of which are Baptist. Of the nearly 100 churches, 23 are Baptist. In my neighbor hood alone there are four churches, none of which are considered mainline Protestant. I know a lady form school that got a mail-order ordination certificate. In the last year her ‘home church’ which is a blender of Judaism and many forms of Christianity has grown from herself and her daughter to over 20 members. All it takes to start a new ‘denomination’ is a desire to break away. Look at Luther. I grew up Lutheran and it wasn’t until recently that I realized that church history didn’t start with Luther, it started with Christ. I know that the Catholic Church is not perfect. As long as people are involved I don’t think we will ever have perfection. However, there are some basic facts that simply cannot be ignored about the Catholic Church. 1)Instituted by Christ Himself through Peter 2)although imperfect–still unified in thought and belief after 2,000 years 3)the authority of Christ has continued through the Apostolic succession that all Protestants seem to deny. Catholics do not break away over stupid little arguments.
Christ taught us that to have or hold anger in heart for your brother is same as murder. So, what is the Protestant faith based on? Please forgive me if I have offended anyone. I can only present what I have learned. Older Catholics in faith, Please correct me if I am wrong. I am still new to Catholicism and I do not want to misrepresent.
 
Yes Luther did break away and look what happened. we should all learn from that mistake.
 
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