Protestants, How could an Infallible book be of use to you, w/o an Infallible Interpreter?

[tweetymom]

Catholics are Christian. Protestants are Christian. Orthedox or Christian. We are all Christian.

 

[AmateurPianist]

What is the Holy Spirit?
What is God?
What is Jesus?

They are all Truth and Yes they are all ONE
Truth is ONE

w/o TRUTH nothing makes sense
not even the Bible

Do you Agree that the Catholic Church was right about the Trinity?

(coming back here)

Yes the apostolic church (that is not the domain of only one organization) was right about the Trinity.

I have no idea how this relates to the thread though.

 

[AmateurPianist]

I will hope they are both in heaven, but cannot presume anyone to be in heaven or hell. That is only up to the one judge that will judge us all.

I do know there was one Church of the Bible, that Christ built, and I believe that to be the Catholic Church. As we have brought up a few times, this was not in dispute during the reformation. Martin Luther was a Catholic priest, who founded the Lutheran Church. He founded the Lutheran Church after He was no longer affliated with the Catholic Church and his separation was over the selling of indulgences. Why are there so many denominations now? Why aren’t Protestants all Lutheran? That’s the heart of this discussion.

Now we are getting off topic. You are claiming that the Bible as an infallible book is useless without an infallible interpreter. I do not believe this to be the case.

The issue on why aren’t Protestants all Lutheran have nothing to do with the topic of this thread.

We believe there are many denominations because of private interpretations, all claiming guidance by the Holy Spirit. Each denomination having slight to great differences in teachings and doctrines. Now, in the matter of our salvation, or simply our response to God’s love being to worship Him as He wills us to worship Him, it seems to be of utmost importance that we are responding with the correct interpretation.

While it is our hope that those of different beliefs are in heaven, there is no assurance of such, at least it’s not written in scriptures. I am open to correction on that, but expect a discussion with a view of the unified Church being supported by scriptures. We are working out our salvation with fear and trembling.

That’s the point Catholics try to make all the time. We have faith in Christ’s promises and in scriptures that there is an infallible interpreter of scriptures. The men that wrote the scriptures shared their interpretation with those they gave them too. Those passed the scriptures and interpretations on to their successors. At some point they, the holders of scriptures and interpretations, defined the canon of the New Testament. Then the holders of scriptures and interpretations preserved them through the centuries. Martin Luther made it quite clear who those holders were.

Now, considering who ‘held’ the scriptures until the reformation who, 500 years later, should we trust to have the correct interpretation? I’m going to keep my salvation in my faith in Christ and in the Church He gave us, as well as the scriptures.

Christ gave us a Church, that gave us scriptures, in that order.

Now this statement is nice preaching and nice polemic, but I see nothing in this statement that even attempts to make a case that the Bible as an infallible book requires an infallible interpreter.

I still claim the premise of this thread is nonsense. And I assume by you constantly going off topic, that you really can not prove that an infallible book is useless without an infallible interpreter.

But maybe I am not understanding something.

So please do the following.

Lay out a clear case A,B,C,D that proves that the Bible as an infallible book is* useless* without an infallible interpreter. Please don’t go all over the globe. Please stick to the topic of this thread.

Then maybe I can respond do your case.

I don’t know how to respond to polemic that is not related to the original claim. But then again my old screen name was NotTooSmart and maybe that is the issue here.

But that will be tomorrow sometime anyway, It is getting late.

 

[polgas733]

That is not the question at hand. The question is "How could an Infallible book be of use to someone without an infallible interpreter. The answer is, from a Protestant’s view, is it is of use to everyone, Catholic and Protestant alike. We all learn from it. There is no one infallible on earth. There will always be questions because the only person who is infallible is God. He will answer your questions when you get to heaven. True, various people are called to spread The Word. But that does not make them infallible. They will make mistakes like you and me. Protestants are just as “called” to seminary as Catholics are. The end result is the same. A human being interpreting The Bible.

Protestants believe the True Chruch is made up of all Christians (regardless of denomination), filled with Love and guided by the Holy Spirit. Not by one person who clames to be above everyone else and closer to God.

But, it has been about 500 years since Martin Luther nailed his 95 Theses on the door of the Church and Protestants and Catholics still disagree. It is sad. Fighting is not what God wanted. And Martin Luther just wanted to take the Corruption out of the church.

We all believe in Jesus so the end result is the same. We will all meet again in Heaven.

Its really funny how you say “Protestants (Plural) believe the True Chruch is made up of all Christians (regardless of denomination), filled with Love and guided by the Holy Spirit(singular). Not by one person who clames to be above everyone else and closer to God.”

The end result is the same. A human being interpreting The Bible.( Differently)

Every Christian denomination contradicts the beliefs of one another into serving the Lord.
Disunity is not what God wanted. He prayed that we may all be One, Is Christianity One now?

Infallibility is upon us
hence the Trinity Father, Son and Holy Spirit is One, One Truth

Matthew 28:20
Jesus said he will be with the “True Church” for all days

Jesus promised, "I will build my Church*(Singular)** and the gates of hell will not prevail against it" (Matt. 16:18).

 

[polgas733]

Catholics are Christian. Protestants are Christian. Orthedox or Christian. We are all Christian.

Yes we are all Christians, But Christianity isn’t just about Believing in Christ
It’s about serving the Lord, knowing him and loving him.(according to his will)
and sadly even though WE ARE ALL CHRISTIANS there is still no unity
not One Christian has the same Belief as another one when It comes to serving God(unless they are from the same Church)

Now to me, Believing in Christ is not sufficient enough to become a “Christian”
Believing without serving him according to his will is nothing

Faith and Works

 

[polgas733]

(coming back here)

Yes the apostolic church (that is not the domain of only one organization) was right about the Trinity.

I have no idea how this relates to the thread though.

I am trying to point out that there can only be One Truth
and Surely there is One True Church present in our time
God loves us so much, he won’t leave us alone and lost

 

[polgas733]

How right you are we are the church: believers in Christ.

Unless you are Catholic (kidding)
Christianity isn’t a Church
because if it is… I would be atheist by now

 

[polgas733]

Yes we are all Christians, But Christianity isn’t just about Believing in Christ
It’s about serving the Lord, knowing him and loving him.(according to his will)
and sadly even though WE ARE ALL CHRISTIANS there is still no unity
not One Christian has the same Belief as another one when It comes to serving God(unless they are from the same Church)

Now to me, Believing in Christ is not sufficient enough to become a “Christian”
Believing without serving him according to his will is nothing

Faith and Works

Faith isn’t everything

 

[Dokimas]

2Pe 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are certain things hard to be understood, which the unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, to their own destruction.

Take a look at verse 15 of 2 Peter 3, also. If this is a good translation, looks like Peter was saying that Paul’s epistles were Scripture to him. I never noticed that before. Very interesting.

 

[Dokimas]

**Acts 9:31

(IGNT+) αιG3588 THE μενG3303 INDEED ουνG3767 THEN εκκλησιαιG1577 ASSEMBLIES καθG2596 THROUGHOUT οληςG3650 WHOLE τηςG3588 THE ιουδαιαςG2449 OF JUDEA καιG2532 AND γαλιλαιαςG1056 GALILEE καιG2532 AND σαμαρειαςG4540 SAMARIA ειχονG2192 [G5707] HAD ειρηνηνG1515 PEACE, οικοδομουμεναιG3618 [G5746] BEING BUILT UP καιG2532 AND πορευομεναιG4198 [G5740] GOING ON τωG3588 IN THE φοβωG5401 FEAR τουG3588 OF THE κυριουG2962 LORD, καιG2532 AND τηG3588 IN THE παρακλησειG3874 COMFORT τουG3588 OF THE αγιουG40 HOLY πνευματοςG4151 SPIRIT επληθυνοντοG4129 [G5712] WERE INCREASED.

G2596
κατά
kata
kat-ah’
A primary particle; (preposition) down (in place or time), in varied relations (according to the case [genitive, dative or accusative] with which it is joined): - about, according as (to), after, against, (when they were) X alone, among, and, X apart, (even, like) as (concerning, pertaining to, touching), X aside, at, before, beyond, by, to the charge of, [charita-] bly, concerning, + covered, [dai-] ly, down, every, (+ far more) exceeding, X more excellent, for, from . . . to, godly, in (-asmuch, divers, every, -to, respect of), . . . by, after the manner of, + by any means, beyond (out of) measure, X mightily, more, X natural, of (up-) on (X part), out (of every), over against, (+ your) X own, + particularly, so, through (-oughout, -oughout every), thus, (un-) to (-gether, -ward), X uttermost, where (-by), with. In composition it retains many of these applications, and frequently denotes opposition, distribution or intensity.

G3650
ὅλος
holos
hol’-os
A primary word; “whole” or “all”, that is, complete (in extent, amount, time or degree), especially (neuter) as noun or adverb: - all, altogether, every whit, + throughout, whole.

kata holos
kat-ah’ hol’-os
Catholic is an adjective derived from the Greek adjective καθολικός (katholikos), meaning “universal”.**

Interesting, but you must admit that that doesn’t mean the CC is THE church.

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Interesting, but you must admit that that doesn’t mean the CC is THE church.

By the evidence you provide? Or because you don’t believe it?

Martin Luther, the original reformer recognized the Catholic Church to be the Church. He believed over years it became corrupted and was in need of a reformation. Or do you deny the Lutheran Church as well?

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Now we are getting off topic. You are claiming that the Bible as an infallible book is useless without an infallible interpreter. I do not believe this to be the case.

The issue on why aren’t Protestants all Lutheran have nothing to do with the topic of this thread.

Now this statement is nice preaching and nice polemic, but I see nothing in this statement that even attempts to make a case that the Bible as an infallible book requires an infallible interpreter.

I still claim the premise of this thread is nonsense. And I assume by you constantly going off topic, that you really can not prove that an infallible book is useless without an infallible interpreter.

But maybe I am not understanding something.

So please do the following.

Lay out a clear case A,B,C,D that proves that the Bible as an infallible book is* useless* without an infallible interpreter. Please don’t go all over the globe. Please stick to the topic of this thread.
Then maybe I can respond do your case.

I don’t know how to respond to polemic that is not related to the original claim. But then again my old screen name was NotTooSmart and maybe that is the issue here.

But that will be tomorrow sometime anyway, It is getting late.

Bolded emphasis is mine in your quote.

The Ethiopian eunuch had infallible scriptures, yet he could not understand them on his own. He had to have an authority from the infallible Church preach Jesus to him.

Now, rather than claim someone is going off topic, try addressing the promises of Christ to be with His Church until the consummation of the world. Address why the God inspired word tells us the Church of the living God is the pillar and ground of truth, instead of scriptures? Because there has to be an infallible source to interpret the scriptures so that we are of the same mind and judgement, as the infallible scriptures tells us to be.

 

[Dokimas]

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Protestant_churches

tell me, which one is the right one?

I’m getting a bit tired of this separating catholics from protestants over this unity issue and interpretation issue. If catholics look honestly within their membership, they’d see differing understandings of what God intends. Take the abortion issue. How many, catholics believe in ‘choice’ for a woman? How many catholic women have had abortions? All those who do, if they were protestant, would start their own church over the abortion issue. How many don’t think the pope speaks infallibly on doctrine and morals? How many don’t believe the Bible is the Word of God? How many get divorced and remarried and call themselves catholics? Please don’t tell me about unity in the CC and then tell me about all the disunity in the protestant churches. Maybe protestants are more honorable by starting their own denomination over what they think are ‘important’ issues.​

 

[Dokimas]

By the evidence you provide? Or because you don’t believe it?

Martin Luther, the original reformer recognized the Catholic Church to be the Church. He believed over years it became corrupted and was in need of a reformation. Or do you deny the Lutheran Church as well?

Why are you destorting what I’ve said?

 

[Dokimas]

Bolded emphasis is mine in your quote.

The Ethiopian eunuch had infallible scriptures, yet he could not understand them on his own. He had to have an authority from the infallible Church preach Jesus to him. Actually, he had a man of God, filled with the Holy Spirit, willing to obey God. It had NOTHING to do with the CC. It had EVERYTHING to do with God the Holy Spirit and an obedient man.

Now, rather than claim someone is going off topic, try addressing the promises of Christ to be with His Church until the consummation of the world. Address why the God inspired word tells us the Church of the living God is the pillar and ground of truth, instead of scriptures? Seeing as Jesus is the Head of the church and the Foundation of church and the Rock upon which the church is built and that Jesus and His church can’t be separated and that Jesus is the Word of God, Jesus is whats make both the Scriptures and the church the pillar and ground of truth. It is JESUS, and JESUS alone. Because there has to be an infallible source to interpret the scriptures so that we are of the same mind and judgement, as the infallible scriptures tells us to be.

 

[polgas733]

I’m getting a bit tired of this separating catholics from protestants over this unity issue and interpretation issue. If catholics look honestly within their membership, they’d see differing understandings of what God intends. Take the abortion issue. How many, catholics believe in ‘choice’ for a woman? How many catholic women have had abortions? All those who do, if they were protestant, would start their own church over the abortion issue. How many don’t think the pope speaks infallibly on doctrine and morals? How many don’t believe the Bible is the Word of God? How many get divorced and remarried and call themselves catholics? Please don’t tell me about unity in the CC and then tell me about all the disunity in the protestant churches. Maybe protestants are more honorable by starting their own denomination over what they think are ‘important’ issues.​

The word free will applies to the members but not the Church
for the CC is the Pillar of Truth
and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

 

[polgas733]

I’m getting a bit tired of this separating catholics from protestants over this unity issue and interpretation issue. If catholics look honestly within their membership, they’d see differing understandings of what God intends. Take the abortion issue. How many, catholics believe in ‘choice’ for a woman? How many catholic women have had abortions? All those who do, if they were protestant, would start their own church over the abortion issue. How many don’t think the pope speaks infallibly on doctrine and morals? How many don’t believe the Bible is the Word of God? How many get divorced and remarried and call themselves catholics? Please don’t tell me about unity in the CC and then tell me about all the disunity in the protestant churches. Maybe protestants are more honorable by starting their own denomination over what they think are ‘important’ issues.​

You are just having a hard time trying to accept that there is One Truth.

 

[Dokimas]

You are just having a hard time trying to accept that there is One Truth.

Not true. I accept the words of Jesus when He said “I am the Way, the Truth and the Life.” Maybe you are having trouble realizing it is Jesus the is the One Truth.

 

[Dokimas]

The word free will applies to the members but not the Church
for the CC is the Pillar of Truth
and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

The church is it’s members. The word ekklesia is ‘called out ones’. Church isn’t a building or a teaching it is God’s children, God’s called out ones.

 

[polgas733]

Not true. I accept the words of Jesus when He said “I am the Way, the Truth and the Life.” Maybe you are having trouble realizing it is Jesus the is the One Truth.

Then if you agree, out of 5000 or 8000 Protestant denomination only one of them is right?
and out of 38,000 christian denomination only one is right?

No i am not having trouble, Not only is Jesus truth, the holy spirit and God too made into One.

then you should also accept when he said “My flesh is real food and my blood is real drink” (Jn 6:55),