Protestants, How could an Infallible book be of use to you, w/o an Infallible Interpreter?

[Matthew_P_Muehl]

Yet another thread derailed.

Always reminds me of the apostles and disciples that wanted to keep the children away from Christ when they tried to approach, and yet Christ said to let them come to him instead.

 

[Dokimas]

You need to argue with the early church fathers not me! It’s all right there in black and white if you would read it! I guess the history of the early church means nothing to you.

Matthew

How long did it take for misunderstanding to creep into the church? Not long. Look at some of the struggles with circumcising converts. Look at Paul’s first letter to the Corinthians and his letter to the Galatians. As some of your friend point out, look at the 30,000 or more denomiantions and the several divisions in the CC.

 

[Matthew_P_Muehl]

How long did it take for misunderstanding to creep into the church? Not long. Look at some of the struggles with circumcising converts. Look at Paul’s first letter to the Corinthians and his letter to the Galatians. As some of your friend point out, look at the 30,000 or more denomiantions and the several divisions in the CC.

So your saying the early church fathers were not guided by the holy spirit?
All the denominations you speak of are in the protestant church.
Authority seems to be a problem for you. Church history is not a strong point for you!

Matthew

 

[Dokimas]

So your saying the early church fathers were not guided by the holy spirit?
All the denominations you speak of are in the protestant church.
Authority seems to be a problem for you. Church history is not a strong point for you!

Matthew

Guess you got me pegged.

 

[Mosacked]

How could an Infallible book be of use to you, w/o an Infallible Interpreter?

please don’t say “we have the Holy Spirit with us”
because there is no way there can be morethan 30,000 Holy Spirit

and hence the word “Holy Spirit” it is not Plural

You are in error. There is only ONE Spirit of Truth.

.

 

[tweetymom]

Tweetymom, Sacred Scripture is for everyone, but, who or what has the authority to resolve doctrinal disputes when it comes to Sacred Scripture, and let’s assume it’s not the CC leadership? The bible does not, for the bible cannot arbitrate, evaluate or resolve anything, without an interpreter/arbiter.

I have read the whole Bible many times and the only interperter I had was the Holy Spirit.

 

[reteeks21]

I have read the whole Bible many times and the only interperter I had was the Holy Spirit.

And so did Luther, Calvin, the Albigensians, Wycliffe, and the list goes on and on. They all thought the Holy Spirit was guiding them, even to the point of throwing a word or two into the Bible! I wonder how all that turned out?

 

[tweetymom]

And so did Luther, Calvin, the Albigensians, Wycliffe, and the list goes on and on. They all thought the Holy Spirit was guiding them, even to the point of throwing a word or two into the Bible! I wonder how all that turned out?

When I read with the Holy Spirit, it does wonders for me!

 

[AmericanJosiah]

Do you believe Jesus was infallible?

I accept God as infallible, and thus, by His divine nature, Jesus. Yes.

Jesus spoke the words below, ONLY, to the men He appointed over His Church.

Joh 14:26 But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.

Joh 16:13 When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come.

Mat 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you. And behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world.

Good. Where does He state that The Catholic Church - specifically, particularly, exclusively and perpetually - is INFALLIBLE, UNACCOUNTABLE, EXEMPT FROM NORMING, and WHATEVER IT AND IT ALONE SAYS is simply to be accepted as correct “with docility” and “as Jesus speaking?”

He said, ‘But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things…’ He also said, ‘When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth…’ In the same sentence Jesus said, ‘…and he will declare to you the things that are to come.’ Lastly, I give you another statement from Christ, ‘…behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world.’

Yes, He did. Now, where did He state that The Catholic Church - specifically, particularly, exclusively and perpetually - is INFALLIBLE, UNACCOUNTABLE, EXEMPT FROM NORMING, and WHATEVER IT AND IT ALONE SAYS is simply to be accepted as correct “with docility” and “as Jesus speaking?”

AGAIN, I’m trying to understand where in the world you get the idea that if a teacher teaches, ergo the student is infallible and unaccountable for all that is taught? That if God leads, ergo it is impossible to not infallibly follow and the subject of such is unaccountable? Where do you get this idea that is so foundational to your entire apologetic? Certainly not from the Bible. Have you read about the fall of Adam and Eve? If not, it’s in Genesis, chapter 3, please read it. GOD (whom we agree is infallible - and thus infallibly lead Adam and Eve and infallibly taught Adam and Eve) even here in a perfect world (unlike our own) to sinless students (unlike any Catholic), and yet 100% of the subjects of His teaching and leading did WRONG - and God certainly held them accountable for it! Have you read the 4 Gospels in the New Testament? If not, please do. Jesus - and we agree He was infallible - for 3 years taught and lead the 12 Apostles. Directly from Jesus. For 3 years. Infallibly teaching, infallibly leading. But, did they constantly and perpetually and infallibly follow? Understand? Did Jesus hold them as accountable for what they did and said? Much of Jesus’ ministry was CORRECTING the 12, rebuking them, holding them accountable. Jesus called one of the Apostles “Satan” (do you know which one?). Now, in life - your point seems baseless, too. I was taught my job by a lady who held it for some 20 years and by my “boss” who understands it very well. Not “infallible”, either one, but outstanding. I got my degree at the age of 19 with honors from one of the top universities in the USA, but I didn’t understand everything infallibly and I AM held accountable for what I do. Are you in your work? Where do you get the idea that students are infallible and unaccountable?

You seem to admit that it’s the UNACCOUNTABLE interpretation of The Catholic Church that Jesus MEANT to say what you suggest, but didn’t. Friend, it’s just self claiming for self. Jesus didn’t promise these things it IT, IT simply claims that He did.

Now, in your repeated post of what’s not in the Bible, specifically, please provide where the Bible states it is the ONLY authority.

Show us where the ‘sole authority’ listed the letters and epistles that were to be included within the New Testament.

Show us, with scriptures, where interpretations were to be different, or that individuals were supposed to interpret them for themselves.

Show us where the Bible tells us how to know which interpretations of scriptures could be taken as correct and which were not correct.

Lastly, why not offer your interpretation of the scriptures provided in this post, so that we may critique it as you’ve critiqued ours?

1. You seem to suggest that I’m accountable. Why me but not The Catholic Church?
2. I never posted that Scripture is the sole authority, or that Scripture so states. I have stated that I think Scripture is the most sound rule/canon for our evaluation of doctrines. I didn’t say Scripture so states (although it does so example).
3. Your issue with self appointing self as the sole, authoritative, infallible/unaccountable interpreter of Scripture (one I COMPLETELY AGREE WITH) needs to be directed to the only one on the planet in all of human history that so does: The Catholic Church (read your own Catechism # 85, 87, etc.). Your “problem” is one of the reasons I left The Catholic Church.
4. The Bible doesn’t specifically outline the arbitive process. But I find it unsound for a defendant to simply exempt self alone from accountability, circumvent norming in the exclusively case of self alone, and rather just insist that whatever self alone says is simply to be accepted as correct “with docility.” That is not modeled. And it seems to conflict with the prophets who often rebuked others (holding them accountable, norming them) and with Jesus’ frequent, bold warnings about false teachers and his praise of the Ephesian Christians for regarding their teachers as accountable.

.

 

[reteeks21]

When I read with the Holy Spirit, it does wonders for me!

Great! It does for all of us…until we make it look, feel, taste, smell, and SAY what it is WE want it to say.

 

[Carlan]

Originally Posted by joe370
Tweetymom, Sacred Scripture is for everyone, but, who or what has the authority to resolve doctrinal disputes when it comes to Sacred Scripture, and let’s assume it’s not the CC leadership? The bible does not, for the bible cannot arbitrate, evaluate or resolve anything, without an interpreter/arbiter.

Tweety,
have read the whole Bible many times and the only interperter I had was the Holy Spirit.

There are many evil spirits roaming around fighting for control,we must be able to discern, and the best way for Catholics to get help doing that is though the teaching authority of the Church, the Magisterium. Scripture tells us not to rely on our own understanding.Peace, Carlan

 

[Carlan]

I have read the whole Bible many times and the only interperter I had was the Holy Spirit.

Tweety, Consider what Father Serpa says here,

Does Scripture have athority over Church?

Hi,
No it doesn’t. That passage doesn’t mention the Church at all. “All scripture is inspired by God and can profitably be used for teaching, for refuting error, for guiding people’s lives and teaching them to be holy.” (2 Tim 3:16) Everything that that passage says about Scripture has been taught by the Catholic Church for over 2000 years.

Also, it is speaking of the Old Testament because the Catholic Church had not compiled the New Testament yet since it was still being written—nor had the Church yet determined what books were inspired and which were not.

Fr. Vincent Serpa, O.P.

 

[tweetymom]

Tweety, Consider what Father Serpa says here,

Does Scripture have athority over Church?

Hi,
No it doesn’t. That passage doesn’t mention the Church at all. “All scripture is inspired by God and can profitably be used for teaching, for refuting error, for guiding people’s lives and teaching them to be holy.” (2 Tim 3:16) Everything that that passage says about Scripture has been taught by the Catholic Church for over 2000 years.

Also, it is speaking of the Old Testament because the Catholic Church had not compiled the New Testament yet since it was still being written—nor had the Church yet determined what books were inspired and which were not.

Fr. Vincent Serpa, O.P.

Carlan God Bless you in your beliefs, I have no problem with your beliefs. We should all respect people’s walk with Jesus. The only person who really knows us is Jesus.

 

[Tomster]

I have read the whole Bible many times and the only interperter I had was the Holy Spirit.

So did Luther, Calvin, Knox etc. and they thought the Holy Spirit was interpreting it for them too. The end result, division and more division about what the Bible really says.
Puhleese!

 

[CMatt25]

Carlan God Bless you in your beliefs, I have no problem with your beliefs. We should all respect people’s walk with Jesus. The only person who really knows us is Jesus.

 

[CMatt25]

So did Luther, Calvin, Knox etc. and they thought the Holy Spirit was interpreting it for them too. The end result, division and more division about what the Bible really says.
Puhleese!

No the end result is more people believing in Christ.

 

[Tomster]

Carlan God Bless you in your beliefs, I have no problem with your beliefs. We should all respect people’s walk with Jesus. The only person who really knows us is Jesus.

Case in point, “The only person who really knows us is Jesus.”.

Are you saying that the Father does not knows us? Are you saying that Holy Spirit does not know us? Are you saying that the Father and the Holy Spirit are not Persons?

What kind of theology are you trying to pass off on us and did the Holy Spirit lead you to believe what you just wrote?

Can you see the kind of trouble you can get into interpreting the Bible all by yourself?

 

[tweetymom]

So did Luther, Calvin, Knox etc. and they thought the Holy Spirit was interpreting it for them too. The end result, division and more division about what the Bible really says.
Puhleese!

Please read post # 593. And God bless you to as you liveup to your belief of what Jesus is to you. Jesus looks at our hearts!

 

[tweetymom]

Case in point, “The only person who really knows us is Jesus.”.

Are you saying that the Father does not knows us? Are you saying that Holy Spirit does not know us? Are you saying that the Father and the Holy Spirit are not Persons?

What kind of theology are you trying to pass off on us and did the Holy Spirit lead you to believe what you just wrote?

Can you see the kind of trouble you can get into interpreting the Bible all by yourself?

You really seem to like splitting hairs. Of course I meant The Father, Son and Holy Spirit. I am not trying to promote any theology to you or anyone else. I respect you also in what you believe. So God Bless you on your journey with our Savior.

 

[michaeldaniels]

Yeah…same with Luther, Calvin, Edwards, etc…There must be an infinite number of Holy Spirits leading each individual to a unique truth

I have read the whole Bible many times and the only interperter I had was the Holy Spirit.