Protestants, How could an Infallible book be of use to you, w/o an Infallible Interpreter?

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larkin31 said:
I don’t read every passage you cite because sometimes you simply provide a list of them with hardly any commentary. Most of us are here for the commentary rather than for a re-reading of the Bible (which can be performed on one’s own rather than sitting in front of a computer). This thread initially was a theoretical question about the logical necessity of an infallible interpreter for an infallible text. So, “infallibility” ended up a large focus of the discussion. The only passages given on this specific topic were debated at length, not ignored.

If you consider us “swine,” then I suggest that you find a different animal pen to linger in. After all, some animals are more equal than others.
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I was eating a BLT from Sonic when I read that comment. I found it both crunchy…and ironic…
 
ProdigalSon1
You bring up something every time we get into this. I do not care if you are Catholic. I dont not care if you go to Mass every Sunday and every weekday. I do not care if you have children, well I hope you do if you wish to, and they go to Notre Dame and are all named Mary, Margaret, and Joseph. I do not care if you say a Hail Mary every day for the rest of your life. Catholics are fine by me. I love your hospitals (the quality of health care is a biggie for me). I am pro-life like you are. I believe that only men should be ministers. I have no problem with a great deal of what we share in common.
I am just defending what I believe and have led enough people to the Lord to not get too hung up about you. I would fully expect to see you when I get to heaven although I am not sure the feeling is reciprocated.
No one is trying to talk you out of anything. So quit playing that card. Its annoying and unneccessary. If you have not noticed, we are defending our faith in a thread designed to question it. Its not a gloves off type fight but we are not just going to slap either.
Thanks
Now quit doing internet at work!!!
 
Prodigal_Son1 said:
Christ appointed the 12. He said so.

**Joh 15:16 You have not chosen me: but I have chosen you; and have appointed you, that you should go and should bring forth fruit; and your fruit should remain: that whatsoever you shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you. **

Paul spoke of one he appointed to an authoritative position through the imposition of hands.

**1Ti 4:14 Neglect not the grace that is in thee, which was given thee by prophecy, with imposition of the hands of the priesthood. **

Acts tells us of appointments of positions through imposed hands of the Apostles.

**Act 6:3 Wherefore, brethren, look ye out among you seven men of good reputation, full of the Holy Ghost and wisdom, whom we may appoint over this business.
Act 6:4 But we will give ourselves continually to prayer and to the ministry of the word.
Act 6:5 And the saying was liked by all the multitude. And they chose Stephen, a man full of faith and of the Holy Ghost, and Philip and Prochorus and Nicanor, and Timon and Parmenas and Nicolas, a proselyte of Antioch.
Act 6:6 These they set before the apostles: and they praying, imposed hands upon them. **

The Protestant approach to the Bible is confusing to me to say the least. Everything you question must be specifically spelled out, and all inclusive. But, it appears this is only on Catholic beliefs. When we ask for things specifically spelled out, or even implied, we receive no response to our requests.
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Where the 7 of Acts 6 chosen as teaching authorities or as servants to help the church leaders?​

When I was ordained, hands were laid on me. Does that count?
 
Rightlydivide said:
No.
You made an assertion now support it. Its a historical one and should be easy to do if accurate…except its not…at least what I have read.
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Some early Christians said the book of Revelation didn’t belong in the canon. Others said Pope Clement’s Letter to the Corinthians (written circa A.D. 80) and The Shepherd, an early second-century allegory written by a Christian writer named Hermas did belong in the New Testament.

Of course this is from Catholic sources.
 
schaick said:
WHAT!?!

So on any given Sunday the Holy Spirit only in one Catholic Church in the whole world?

You must realize that all Trinitarian Christians hold the same basic tenets of faith. We simply celebrate our faith differently.

I am glad someone brought up the different Catholic denominations- what is going on with that?
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What Catholic denomination?
List one please
 
Prodigal_Son1 said:
It’s taking an example, from scriptures, and showing that scriptures alone cannot be understood. Nehemiah 8 shows that the priests had to explain scriptures so they people could understand. Christ even preached scriptures to those on the road to Emmaus and opened scriptures for them. Those men knew scriptures but didn’t understand them until Christ opened them to them. Did the average Jew own Scripture to be studied? Let’s face it, most of the real learned missed the real Messiah when He came
But, then there I go using scriptures to support a view. When we use Scripture, some think we are privately interpreting. That’s something I haven’t seen from Protestants in this discussion. Not true. And any time we use comment on the Scriptures you quote with your understanding, we are using Scripture - the ones you quoted.

Philip was an authority from the Church (the verses you quoted said God spoke to Philip directly, not by the church) and He preached the same message as the others. Same Holy Spirit; no suprise to me. Once a truth is infallible, it can be taught by those of authority. True enough; that’s not the question; who claims the authority and is it theirs to claim are the real questions.

So, it’s acceptable to have many different interpretations? As I’ve said over and over again - NO Would you please provide scriptures that even imply this? If the answer is there are not Holy Spirit inspired different interpretation, then I can’t porvide Scriptures. BTW, I think there is a difference between interpretation (only one true interpretation) and application (can be different application)​

Here’s a series of verses for you: Romans 14. Paul said there are different understanding of issues like which day of the week is more important or more holy? Paul doesn’t slam any one for different interpretations. In fact, Paul seems to be saying the same church has people that think one way and others that think another way on some issues. Paul allows for the differences. (I hope I’m understandable.)

Again, please provide the examples from scriptures that show it’s acceptable to have different interpretations, therefore different teachings?

Oh look, there are Catholics weak in the faith that don’t agree, therefore it’s perfectly alright for Protestants to go off in any direction we want and be of whatever mind and judgment we want. Care to provide Scripture to support this claim? - Kind of a dumb question isn’t it?

Distorted numbers, smoke screen explanations, exaggerated examples of explanations provided with scriptures, but no scriptures to support your view yet…it speaks loud and clear. 😉
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mark_a said:
Some early Christians said the book of Revelation didn’t belong in the canon. Others said Pope Clement’s Letter to the Corinthians (written circa A.D. 80) and The Shepherd, an early second-century allegory written by a Christian writer named Hermas did belong in the New Testament.

Of course this is from Catholic sources.
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Do not change the subject Mark.

This is what you said
If you are refering to some of the non-canonical “scripture”, these books did not merely fall out of favor, but did not meet the criteria of the Holy Spirit-led council(s) of books to be included.
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I am asking for proof that these councils considered other books then what specific criteria they used. You made the statement, now defend it. We are talking about the councils. You seem to know of books that were discussed at these councils and you seem to know about criteria.
 
Dokimas
you said that infallibility is something that no one Earth can have correct?
Only Christ,The Father and Holy Spirit can have infallibility?I agree with this
now

as Christians we all have different Churches( approximately 38,000 of them all contradicting one another’s belief)
Did you really think that Christ would let his Church( which to you is Christianity, since you said the Church is it’s members) run in disunity and disagreements amongst one another?

now as Christians we all agree that christ is our saviour and he died for our sins.
which to me is what one would call FAITH

yet as Christians we all cannot agree on one thing, and that is how to serve the Lord.
which to me is what one would call WORKS

surely the Lord would not let us quarrel amongst ourselves
and he did say he will build his church and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it(38,000 reason that Christianity is not the Church of Christ)
 
polgas733 said:
Dokimas
you said that infallibility is something that no one Earth can have correct?
Only Christ,The Father and Holy Spirit can have infallibility?I agree with this
now

as Christians we all have different Churches( approximately 38,000 of them all contradicting one another’s belief)
Did you really think that Christ would let his Church( which to you is Christianity, since you said the Church is it’s members) run in disunity and disagreements amongst one another?

now as Christians we all agree that christ is our saviour and he died for our sins.
which to me is what one would call FAITH

yet as Christians we all cannot agree on one thing, and that is how to serve the Lord.
which to me is what one would call WORKS Doesn’t 1 Corinthians 12 & Romans 12 say there are diffing way to serve the Lord? As Paul said we are not all hands, not all feet, not all ears or eyes.

surely the Lord would not let us quarrel amongst ourselves Reality disagrees with you unless I’m not a Christian and you are. and he did say he will build his church and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it (and hell is not and will not prevail)(38,000 reason that Christianity is not the Church of Christ - maybe your understanding of what’s going on with the 38,000 churches is incorrect)
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polgas733 said:
Dokimas
you said that infallibility is something that no one Earth can have correct?
Only Christ,The Father and Holy Spirit can have infallibility?I agree with this
now

as Christians we all have different Churches( approximately 38,000 of them all contradicting one another’s belief)
Did you really think that Christ would let his Church( which to you is Christianity, since you said the Church is it’s members) run in disunity and disagreements amongst one another?

now as Christians we all agree that christ is our saviour and he died for our sins.
which to me is what one would call FAITH

yet as Christians we all cannot agree on one thing, and that is how to serve the Lord.
which to me is what one would call WORKS

surely the Lord would not let us quarrel amongst ourselves
and he did say he will build his church and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it(38,000 reason that Christianity is not the Church of Christ)
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I know that I am an agnostic. But when I lived as a full Christian in a minister’s household, we discussed this kind of thing. One thing my father/minister said was that likely Jesus had no real idea nor plan that his following would spread so largely around the entire planet. He did not even know what “the planet” was. We were never taught that Jesus had that kind of knowledge, nor foreknowledge, nor did it matter. What Jesus began was a small movement, an epicenter (so to speak). I don’t think that Jesus cared one way or another a whole lot about “unity” or whether people disagreed or not, because of course they were going to. He even allowed Peter to deny him three times (talk about disagreements!) Even his followers disagreed with him at times. So what? Hands are still laid on, the spirit is shared, the Eucharist is shared, the teachings are shared, the church lives in that community. If God had meant for there to be a detailed blueprint of what Jesus’s messages (mostly narrative in nature, or symbolic) meant, then I imagine that more than just those Ten Commandments would have been sent in writing among us.

Thus spoke Agnosticus.
 
polgas733 said:
hahaha
The Polish National Catholic Church (PNCC) is a Christian church founded and based in the United States by Polish-Americans **who were Roman Catholic. **

So are you saying that all Orthodox and Protestant Churches today are Catholic Denomination? hahahaha

Come home 😃
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It is a Catholic denomination. It comes from the Catholic Church and maintains valid orders and apostolic succession. Its as much as a denomination as any other offshot of a Baptist or Methodist church. Whats the difference? It would seem to me that we have to be careful. Whatever criteria you use to say there are no Catholic denominations could apply to any group as well. So do be cautious
 
yet as Christians we all cannot agree on one thing, and that is how to serve the Lord.
which to me is what one would call WORKS Doesn’t 1 Corinthians 12 & Romans 12 say there are diffing way to serve the Lord? As Paul said we are not all hands, not all feet, not all ears or eyes.
There is only One True way not 38,000 way
for Truth is One

surely the Lord would not let us quarrel amongst ourselves Reality disagrees with you unless I’m not a Christian and you are. and he did say he will build his church and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it (and hell is not and will not prevail)(38,000 reason that Christianity is not the Church of Christ - maybe your understanding of what’s going on with the 38,000 churches is incorrect)

how’s our argument for example 😃 we cannot both agree on who has the right to interpret an infallible book
 
Rightlydivide said:
It is a Catholic denomination. It comes from the Catholic Church and maintains valid orders and apostolic succession. Its as much as a denomination as any other offshot of a Baptist or Methodist church. Whats the difference? It would seem to me that we have to be careful. Whatever criteria you use to say there are no Catholic denominations could apply to any group as well. So do be cautious
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So is the Orthodox and the Protestant Churches
😊
they all came from the Catholic Church
and all declared she’s wrong

the great schism, the reformation
 
polgas733 said:
hahaha
The Polish National Catholic Church (PNCC) is a Christian church founded and based in the United States by Polish-Americans **who were Roman Catholic. **

So are you saying that all Orthodox and Protestant Churches today are Catholic Denomination? hahahaha

Come home 😃
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And Jesus was a practicing Jew.
 
polgas733 said:
So is the Orthodox and the Protestant Churches
😊
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Ok but lets do be careful. The first Baptists. The first Methodists. The first Lutheran can all ALSO claim they have no denominations by whatever standard Catholics say they do not have denominations. So while you have not listed the criteria, I am merely stating it has to apply to everyone else as well.
 
Rightlydivide said:
I am asking for proof that these councils considered other books then what specific criteria they used. You made the statement, now defend it. We are talking about the councils. You seem to know of books that were discussed at these councils and you seem to know about criteria.
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The criteria: Apostolic authenticity, orthodoxy, antiquity, and usage by earlier Church Fathers.

I have no more on-hand “proof” of this than you do of the sinfulness of dancing.
 
mark_a said:
The criteria: Apostolic authenticity, orthodoxy, antiquity, and usage by earlier Church Fathers.
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This is not proof. Which council used these and how do you know? Do you also have the evidence that they discussed other books as you claimed?
 
Rightlydivide said:
This is not proof. Which council used these and how do you know? Do you also have the evidence that they discussed other books as you claimed?
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There is plenty of info available if you are interested. The info I’ve included is a good start, but I’m not jumping through hoops for you.

You have the same attitude as pro-choice folks who say we can’t “prove” when life begins.
 
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