Protestants: How do you determine which denomination holds the truth?

[pablope]

I am not willing to concede that sola scriptura is the cause

of divergent beliefs. I consider that a simplistic explanation.

If not SS, then what do you think caused, and is continuing to cause these massive divisions and divergent beliefs?

Could it be disregarding the authority of the church embodied by the Pope referring to the office as anti-Christ?

The fact is that division had been there long before the 1500’s.

 

[rcwitness]

We should focus and agree with our Protestant brothers that Scripture is not the cause of division (not that anyone suggested it was).

The problem is when individuals use Scripture against the authority of the Church. Scripture can be used to correct and confirm behavior. It can even be used to reject false teachings and uphold true Teachings. But if any of us try to contrast a Teaching of the Church with a Teaching of the Scripture, we are not understanding the meaning of Scripture. Scripture is the most High level of authoritative writings we have. Nothing is higher in authority, not even the Pope. But Catholic Teaching has always recognized and upheld the authority to make final interpretations on Scripture. The interesting thing, is that there are only 12 passages in particular which have the Prophetic interpretation affirmed by the Church. Not that the whole of Scripture is not considered in her doctrines and dogmas, but that these particular passages have been officially interpreted with its prime meaning. Other aspects can be drawn from them, but must not contradict the prime meaning revealed.

Maybe the first hint of Schism within the Church is found in Scripture.

3 JOHN

9 I have written something to the church; but Diot′rephes, who likes to put himself first, does not acknowledge my authority. 10 So if I come, I will bring up what he is doing, prating against me with evil words. And not content with that, he refuses himself to welcome the brethren, and also stops those who want to welcome them and puts them out of the church.

Diotrephes is even considered to be the Bishop of the Church which John is writing privately to one of its laymen.

So, we have a difficult challenge sometimes. It can be a Bishop who is the cause of problems. But that’s the beauty of our humble Lord. He made Himself to be even the lowest servant in the Church, so that the lowest member can refute the poor behavior of even a Bishop. But there must be respect and lawfulness in doing this. A member who is not in a leadership possition should not blast accusations, but take the issues he has to higher authorities. We must have faith that God will provide for His correction if we behave in humility and lawfullness.

My concern for Protestantism, is that it may eventually grow much larger than the Catholic faithfull and be taken away into the hands of the Deceiver. It will then persecute the small Catholic faithfull, and this will be the elect, which if it weren’t for the Lord stepping in and saving her, all would be lost.

 

[spina1953]

We should focus and agree with our Protestant brothers that Scripture is not the cause of division (not that anyone suggested it was).

The problem is when individuals use Scripture against the authority of the Church. Scripture can be used to correct and confirm behavior. It can even be used to reject false teachings and uphold true Teachings. But if any of us try to contrast a Teaching of the Church with a Teaching of the Scripture, we are not understanding the meaning of Scripture. Scripture is the most High level of authoritative writings we have. Nothing is higher in authority, not even the Pope. But Catholic Teaching has always recognized and upheld the authority to make final interpretations on Scripture. The interesting thing, is that there are only 12 passages in particular which have the Prophetic interpretation affirmed by the Church. Not that the whole of Scripture is not considered in her doctrines and dogmas, but that these particular passages have been officially interpreted with its prime meaning. Other aspects can be drawn from them, but must not contradict the prime meaning revealed.

Maybe the first hint of Schism within the Church is found in Scripture.

3 JOHN

9 I have written something to the church; but Diot′rephes, who likes to put himself first, does not acknowledge my authority. 10 So if I come, I will bring up what he is doing, prating against me with evil words. And not content with that, he refuses himself to welcome the brethren, and also stops those who want to welcome them and puts them out of the church.

Diotrephes is even considered to be the Bishop of the Church which John is writing privately to one of its laymen.

So, we have a difficult challenge sometimes. It can be a Bishop who is the cause of problems. But that’s the beauty of our humble Lord. He made Himself to be even the lowest servant in the Church, so that the lowest member can refute the poor behavior of even a Bishop. But there must be respect and lawfulness in doing this. A member who is not in a leadership possition should not blast accusations, but take the issues he has to higher authorities. We must have faith that God will provide for His correction if we behave in humility and lawfullness.

My concern for Protestantism, is that it may eventually grow much larger than the Catholic faithfull and be taken away into the hands of the Deceiver. It will then persecute the small Catholic faithfull, and this will be the elect, which if it weren’t for the Lord stepping in and saving her, all would be lost.

Hi rcwitness: I think you made great points in your post. As for sola scriptura I think it more the matter of who has authority to interpret Scripture the Church or the individual? While the main-line Protestants like Lutheran’s and Anglians may go that way, most of the denominational’s have gone that way. We see for example the Fundelmentalists take a literal meaning of Scripture, and many of the bible based churches do the same. Then there are those who make or teach some sort of prophecy based teaching like Hal Lindsy Tim LaHale. it does seem that every day new churches are starting up everywhere or sort seems. They just grow and grow and each has their own way of interpreting Scripture, each saying that they have the truth. it sure makes it very hard to know which church has the fullness of truth if one does not examine or look into the beliefs systems and seek the truth, one will just float by. There are some who believe yet do not go to any church at all. So in many ways its due to how one is brought up, some into the church of the parents or their friends, or talked into. Never really thinking if that particular church has the truth or not, its more that they feel welcomed so they stay. But churches will continue to splinter whenever those who attend decide that church is not longer preaching the truth as they themselves see it.

 

[Tomster]

Hi rcwitness: I think you made great points in your post. As for sola scriptura I think it more the matter of who has authority to interpret Scripture the Church or the individual? While the main-line Protestants like Lutheran’s and Anglians may go that way, most of the denominational’s have gone that way. We see for example the Fundelmentalists take a literal meaning of Scripture, and many of the bible based churches do the same. Then there are those who make or teach some sort of prophecy based teaching like Hal Lindsy Tim LaHale. it does seem that every day new churches are starting up everywhere or sort seems. They just grow and grow and each has their own way of interpreting Scripture, each saying that they have the truth. it sure makes it very hard to know which church has the fullness of truth if one does not examine or look into the beliefs systems and seek the truth, one will just float by. There are some who believe yet do not go to any church at all. So in many ways its due to how one is brought up, some into the church of the parents or their friends, or talked into. Never really thinking if that particular church has the truth or not, its more that they feel welcomed so they stay. But churches will continue to splinter whenever those who attend decide that church is not longer preaching the truth as they themselves see it.

And splinter they do. Judging by the many different Synods of Lutheranism, for example, and all of the different human authorities regulating each of those Synods, is it any wonder?

 

[spina1953]

And splinter they do. Judging by the many different Synods of Lutheranism, for example, and all of the different human authorities regulating each of those Synods, is it any wonder?

Hi Tomster: Yes, I agree and its no wonder since when those who belong to a church decide that for whatever reason they are not in agreement with that church they go off and either start a new church or find one that meets their needs or thinking. In some ways I think that liberalism has creeped into religious theology in that now one thinks that women can be priests or that same sex marriage is ok or a number of other things that had never been accepted. its like whatever society decides is correct, the various denominations decide that its ok too.
It also seems or at least appears that secular thinking is moving more and more towards or into religious thinking so that in effect what the world says is ok so to does the churches say is ok also. That's not to say that all churches are that way but as you mentioned as an example that the many different synods of Lutheranism each with its different human authorities deciding to either go along or split because one wants to accept or agree to while the other does not. In the end people will do what they will and believe what they want to believe and accept what they want to accept while there will those who will not with the flow.

 

[Dave_Noonan]

If not SS, then what do you think caused, and is continuing to cause these massive divisions and divergent beliefs?

 

[spina1953]

pablope;12348805:

In the Die fröhliche Wissenschaft

, Nietzsche argues that once Luther asserts that the Church and Church Councils can and have erred (I think he’s probably referring to Luther’s famous declaration of the Diet of Worms), and then once scholars (the “philologists”) show that the Bible isn’t necessarily inerrant either, people are pretty much left to their opinions.

Hi Dave Noonan: You might be correct. its a thought anyway. If one is not going to accept the authority of the Church than either one or someone’s has to decide who or what will become the authority that they are willing to submit to.

 

[daddyd]

I am a former Evangelical, and I never asked myself this question, but when I did, I personally saw no other alternative than Catholicism or Orthodoxy. The roots of the tree were there, and the closer to the time if Christ, the more Catholic it looked.

So, if any of you have found another method besides history to determine the true expression of Christian faithfulness in a Protestant denomination, I’d love to hear it.

Thanks!

John17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
The denomination that aligns itself with the bible, that is the one that has the truth.

 

[FathersKnowBest]

John17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
The denomination that aligns itself with the bible, that is the one that has the truth.

Whose interpretation of the Bible?

 

[rcwitness]

John17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
The denomination that aligns itself with the bible, that is the one that has the truth.

1 Timothy 3:15

“If I am delayed, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth.”

 

[Jon_S_1]

John17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
The denomination that aligns itself with the bible, that is the one that has the truth.

So which denomination is that?

HOW much “alignmen” is needed?

Who judges who is aligned with the Bible?

The catholic says they are, the Mormon says they are, the liberal episcopalian says they are.

You need to seriously think about this. You cannot be the test. You are not the infallible source of truth, but as long as your interpretation of the bible is your litmus test you make yourself the infallible source of truth.

Not to mention you have no basis for saying the book of John is truth without an outside source declaring it so.

 

[daddyd]

Whose interpretation of the Bible?

How much interpretation do you need to understand this?

John8
31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

or this?

John5
39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

 

[callmesaint]

So which denomination is that?

HOW much “alignmen” is needed?

Who judges who is aligned with the Bible?

The catholic says they are, the Mormon says they are, the liberal episcopalian says they are.

You need to seriously think about this. You cannot be the test. You are not the infallible source of truth, but as long as your interpretation of the bible is your litmus test you make yourself the infallible source of truth.

Not to mention you have no basis for saying the book of John is truth without an outside source declaring it so.

Protestants: How do you determine which denomination holds the truth?
Quote:
Originally Posted by guanophore;

In response to the OP, it does not seem to me that Protestants actually investigate “denominations” for holding the truth. I think it is more a manner of looking for a congregation that holds most closely to their conception of the Bible. I remember when I was in college, many of the people in my Christian fellowship really did not care where they went to church, and had no interest in a denomination, but just looked for a bible based and welcoming community. This is why I think non-denoms are so popular.
I think you are absolutely right. It was true for me in Protestant upbringing. I went to Baptist, evangelical, non denoms, and even Pentecostal. All that mattered was a welcoming community that gave me what I wanted.

I will admit, my question was to get the Protestants stumbling onto this page something to think about. Something that would never even cross their mind in most cases.

---

“Opinion threads, I am starting to realize are vanity, and chasing after wind.” -StevenFrancis

the following is what happened to me when Jesus sent me to meet some penecostal prophets–

and like acts 8;16

because the Holy Spirit had not yet come on any of them; they had simply been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

16 For las yet He had fallen upon none of them. mThey had only been baptized in nthe name of the Lord Jesus.

17 Then othey laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.

18 And when Simon saw that through the laying on of the apostles’ hands the Holy Spirit was given, he offered them money,

19 saying, “Give me this power also, that anyone on whom I lay hands may receive the Holy Spirit.”

this is the answer–

1 Samuel 19:20-24King James Version (KJV)

20 And Saul sent messengers to take David: and when they saw the company of the prophets prophesying, and Samuel standing as appointed over them, the Spirit of God was upon the messengers of Saul, and they also prophesied.

21 And when it was told Saul, he sent other messengers, and they prophesied likewise. And Saul sent messengers again the third time, and they prophesied also.

22 Then went he also to Ramah, and came to a great well that is in Sechu: and he asked and said, Where are Samuel and David? And one said, Behold, they be at Naioth in Ramah.

23 And he went thither to Naioth in Ramah: and the Spirit of God was upon him also, and he went on, and prophesied, until he came to Naioth in Ramah.

24 And he stripped off his clothes also, and prophesied before Samuel in like manner, and lay down naked all that day and all that night. Wherefore they say, Is Saul also among the prophets?

 

[Jon_S_1]

How much interpretation do you need to understand this?

John8
31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

or this?

John5
39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

You of course dodge all of the hard questions. Which denomination do you belong to, and how is it you can plainly read the Bible one way and a host of others read it a different way.

As for John 5, I hope you realize that refers to the Old Testament.

 

[daddyd]

1 Timothy 3:15

“If I am delayed, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth.”

A pillar and a bulwark are archetectual terms they are parts of a structure that hold up or support the building. This is what Paul is saying here, that the church holds up or supports the truth and we know that truth to be the word of God.

John17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

 

[Jon_S_1]

Protestants: How do you determine which denomination holds the truth?
Quote:
Originally Posted by guanophore;

In response to the OP, it does not seem to me that Protestants actually investigate “denominations” for holding the truth. I think it is more a manner of looking for a congregation that holds most closely to their conception of the Bible. I remember when I was in college, many of the people in my Christian fellowship really did not care where they went to church, and had no interest in a denomination, but just looked for a bible based and welcoming community. This is why I think non-denoms are so popular.
I think you are absolutely right. It was true for me in Protestant upbringing. I went to Baptist, evangelical, non denoms, and even Pentecostal. All that mattered was a welcoming community that gave me what I wanted.

I will admit, my question was to get the Protestants stumbling onto this page something to think about. Something that would never even cross their mind in most cases.

---

“Opinion threads, I am starting to realize are vanity, and chasing after wind.” -StevenFrancis

the following is what happened to me when Jesus sent me to meet some penecostal prophets–

and like acts 8;16

because the Holy Spirit had not yet come on any of them; they had simply been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

16 For las yet He had fallen upon none of them. mThey had only been baptized in nthe name of the Lord Jesus.

17 Then othey laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.

18 And when Simon saw that through the laying on of the apostles’ hands the Holy Spirit was given, he offered them money,

19 saying, “Give me this power also, that anyone on whom I lay hands may receive the Holy Spirit.”

this is the answer–

1 Samuel 19:20-24King James Version (KJV)

20 And Saul sent messengers to take David: and when they saw the company of the prophets prophesying, and Samuel standing as appointed over them, the Spirit of God was upon the messengers of Saul, and they also prophesied.

21 And when it was told Saul, he sent other messengers, and they prophesied likewise. And Saul sent messengers again the third time, and they prophesied also.

22 Then went he also to Ramah, and came to a great well that is in Sechu: and he asked and said, Where are Samuel and David? And one said, Behold, they be at Naioth in Ramah.

23 And he went thither to Naioth in Ramah: and the Spirit of God was upon him also, and he went on, and prophesied, until he came to Naioth in Ramah.

24 And he stripped off his clothes also, and prophesied before Samuel in like manner, and lay down naked all that day and all that night. Wherefore they say, Is Saul also among the prophets?

So you base truth on emotional experience. The Mormons do that too, they call it a “burning in their bosom”

I would caution that such experiences can be misleading.

But I do not want to dismiss your experience, I was an evangelical a long time, I know God works in other denominations. That is not the issue. The issue is what is the Best for you to receive Gods grace and sanctification.

More importantly, it is, what does God desire from us. We should give him what he wants. Division is not what he wants. He wants us to submit and be a part of his one church, the bulwark of truth as the Bible describes.

 

[FathersKnowBest]

How much interpretation do you need to understand this?

John8
31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed;
32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

or this?

John5
39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

A LOT, actually.

Just to start:

What does it mean to have “believed on him”?
What does He mean by “continue in my word”?

How do we discern what actually is His word? In other words, is the Gospel of Luke, a gentile, “His word”? How do we even know that Luke wrote that gospel? [Hint: the Catholic Church tells us so.]

How about more obscure books, like the letter to the Hebrews? Is THIS “His word”? Is it Theopneustos? How do we know? [Hint: the Catholic Church tells us so.]

“His word” tells us such things as:
54 Then Jesus said to them: Amen, amen I say unto you: Except you eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you.

55 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath everlasting life: and I will raise him up in the last day.

56 For my flesh is meat indeed: and my blood is drink indeed.

57 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, abideth in me, and I in him.

58 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father; so he that eateth me, the same also shall live by me.

59 This is the bread that came down from heaven. Not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead. He that eateth this bread, shall live for ever.

and
15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

I’d have to say that many, many protestant denominations don’t “continue in” THIS part of “His word”!!!

 

[Jon_S_1]

A pillar and a bulwark are archetectual terms they are parts of a structure that hold up or support the building. This is what Paul is saying here, that the church holds up or supports the truth and we know that truth to be the word of God.

John17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

Which church holds up and supports the truth?

Mormons? JHW? SDA? Methodist? Pentecostals? Evangelicals? Lutherans?

This is the root of the question.

 

[pablope]

John17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

Thy word…where does the Bible says the “thy word” specifically refers to the written word in the Bible? Or the written words alone?

For all you know…“thy word” could be referring to the real presence of the Word in the Eucharist.

The denomination that aligns itself with the bible, that is the one that has the truth

 

[JonNC]

It is really beyond my comprehension that you cannot see that sola Scriptura is not the cause of divergent Christian Beliefs. Even before the reformation it was a transfer of authority from the church to scripture and personal opinion that caused heresies.
In your mind what causes this exponential growth of division if not sola Scriptura and rejection of the Church’s teaching authority??

Hi Jon,
I think guan touched on it, when quoting: 12 We see now through a glass in a dark manner: but then face to face. Now I know in part: but then I shall know even as I am known. (1 Co 13:12).
It is human sin that causes division. look, there are a number of communions that teach Scripture and Sacred Tradition as the model, and yet they are separated from each other: CC, EO, OO, PNCC, Union of Utrecht. One can’t blame that on sola scriptura.
So, it must be the fault of Tradition. Right? No. There is something else involved.
It is human sin.

How could there be divergent beliefs if everyone submitted to the church and her teaching authority?

Which Church, Jon. I know you are speaking of the Catholic Church in communion with the Bishop of Rome. But the Patriarchate at Rome is not the only one. Whose teaching authority is the true authority?

Jon