Protestants: How do you determine which denomination holds the truth?

[Wildkit]

Why do all these miracles only seem to happen in this one Church? St. Januarius feast day in Itlay is today. Did his blood run through the viles today, or is someone trying to tell me something?

 

[Jon_S_1]

Why do all these miracles only seem to happen in this one Church? St. Januarius feast day in Itlay is today. Did his blood run through the viles today, or is someone trying to tell me something?

This is a good point, when I was protestant I sort of believed most miracles had ceased. Yeah there was an occasional unexplained healing, or some one having a situation work our just right…but only on the road to Catholicism did I see the tons of miracles, blatant miracles that had been happening for the last 2000 years.

But while amazing for the one with faith, it is not going to be a convincing argument for the skeptics.

 

[JonNC]

=Jon S;12349677]Thats fair enough, the LDS submit to their communion as well, so it kind of brings us back to the real question of why does your communion have the authority for you to submit to it?

Why does yours?

For me unless one says that Luther was a prophet of God, one cannot say that their is authority in Lutheranism It was such a departure from the apostolic faith held for 1500 years prior that it is either wrong and man made, or Luther was a prophet and God told him to change things.

Then you completely misunderstand our tradition. First, in our tradition, Luther was no more no less a man than you or me. He was not a prophet, nor a savior. Second, we do not accept the charge that our teachings (not Luther’s, ours) depart from the apostolic faith. Third, the notion that Lutherans believe the teachings of the historic Church were wrong fails to square with the history of our tradition, in which the three ancient creeds are confessed, the early general councils are accepted, and the Fathers are held in high esteem and their teachings in high regard.

In this respect, I feel the Mormons have a stronger position than the Lutherans because they in fact claim that Joseph Smith received divine revelation, which basically can justify any vast number of changes. They are wrong and fail on many levels, but at least on the issue of authority their t’s are crossed and their i’s dotted.

Seems like a rather interesting “I” statement on your part. But at least you recognize that we don’t hold Luther to that level, that we instead preach Christ crucified.

Jon

 

[Jon_S_1]

Why does yours?

Then you completely misunderstand our tradition. First, in our tradition, Luther was no more no less a man than you or me. He was not a prophet, nor a savior. Second, we do accept the charge that our teachings (not Luther’s, ours) depart from the apostolic faith. Third, the notion that Lutherans believe the teachings of the historic Church were wrong fails to square with the history of our tradition, in which the three ancient creeds are confessed, the early general councils are accepted, and the Fathers are held in high esteem and their teachings in high regard.

Seems like a rather interesting “I” statement on your part. But at least you recognize that we don’t hold Luther to that level, that we instead preach Christ crucified.

Jon

WAIT A SECOND!!

Did I read that right, you “accept the charge that your teachings depart from the apostolic faith.”?

Really, on what grounds would you ever want to depart from the apostolic faith?

 

[JonNC]

WAIT A SECOND!!

Did I read that right, you “accept the charge that your teachings depart from the apostolic faith.”?

Really, on what grounds would you ever want to depart from the apostolic faith?

Thank, Jon. I’ve corrected the sentence.

Jon

 

[Jon_S_1]

Thank, Jon. I’ve corrected the sentence.

Jon

Freudian Slip no doubt!

You must admit though that sola scripture played no part in the church for the first 300 years clearly as there was no consensus on scripture, the first 70 years as the scripture was not yet completed, and the first 1500 years as countless writings describe the opposite of sola scripture.

Church councils and the formation of the creeds should be proof enough that sola scripture is false.

Then you say, well we hold to tradition and scripture, that is fine, show me where in the tradition it holds that one can be in disobedience to the Bishop. Where it shows that division and schism is a virtue? Where it shows that one can reject the pronouncements of the church councils.

 

[Isaiah45_9]

I hope you can see by the vast number of I statements in your response, that it is in fact you who is the ultimate authority.

With me, it is the church. I will say there are plenty of things that I don’t like that much, or I don’t quite understand, but it is not I who decides, it is the Church.

Bro,

I don’t think this is a fair assessment of what JonNC is saying.

If you were to explain why [you] are Catholic, [you] would have as many *'s as Jon has. Unless you didn’t have freedom of choice.

Also, JonNC submits to his communion as much as we do to ours. He is not making himself an authority. His particular communion recognizes the historical Church and the first 7 Ecumenical Councils. While their Bishops, Priests and others separated from us during the Reformation, they still hold to most of the creeds and beliefs we do. They separated and don’t recognize the later developments after the East-West separation for the most part.

That his communion is further splitting is a fact inasmuch as them and others further split from us originally.*

 

[Jon_S_1]

Bro,

I don’t think this is a fair assessment of what JonNC is saying.

If you were to explain why [you] are Catholic, [you] would have as many *'s as Jon has. Unless you didn’t have freedom of choice.

Also, JonNC submits to his communion as much as we do to ours. He is not making himself an authority. His particular communion recognizes the historical Church and the first 7 Ecumenical Councils. While their Bishops, Priests and others separated from us during the Reformation, they still hold to most of the creeds and beliefs we do. They separated and don’t recognize the later developments after the East-West separation for the most part.

That his communion is further splitting is a fact inasmuch as them and others further split from us originally.*

I agree to some extent, but to say that the reformation is so closely tied to us I think is an error, I am also trying to point out a frame of reference that is different between protestants and Catholics in my experience.

As a protestant, I would have never attended a church that held a teaching I disagreed with personally.

As a Catholic, it is not about what I agree with, it is about what the Church teaches.

Lutheranism and Jon NC is closer to us in that regard compared with most protestants, but it seems the frame of reference is still not quite on target.

 

[daddyd]

As far as I know, the Bible has no voice of its own…so how can the Bible speak? Can you provide the chapter and verse for this?

The bible is the inspired word of God. And sometimes His actual voice.

Deu5
24 And ye said, Behold, the Lord our God hath shewed us his glory and his greatness, and we have heard his voice out of the midst of the fire: we have seen this day that God doth talk with man, and he liveth.

Deuteronomy 8:20
As the nations which the Lord destroyeth before your face, so shall ye perish; because ye would not be obedient unto the voice of the Lord your God.
How can the Bible determine or tell you which has the truth and which has no truth?

Deuteronomy 13:18
When thou shalt hearken to the voice of the Lord thy God, to keep all his commandments which I command thee this day, to do that which is right in the eyes of the Lord thy God.

Jeremiah 7:28
But thou shalt say unto them, This is a nation that obeyeth not the voice of the Lord their God, nor receiveth correction: truth is perished, and is cut off from their mouth.

Hebrews 1
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

 

[pablope]

The bible is the inspired word of God. And sometimes His actual voice.

Deu5
24 And ye said, Behold, the Lord our God hath shewed us his glory and his greatness, and we have heard his voice out of the midst of the fire: we have seen this day that God doth talk with man, and he liveth.

Deuteronomy 8:20
As the nations which the Lord destroyeth before your face, so shall ye perish; because ye would not be obedient unto the voice of the Lord your God.
How can the Bible determine or tell you which has the truth and which has no truth?

Deuteronomy 13:18
When thou shalt hearken to the voice of the Lord thy God, to keep all his commandments which I command thee this day, to do that which is right in the eyes of the Lord thy God.

Jeremiah 7:28
But thou shalt say unto them, This is a nation that obeyeth not the voice of the Lord their God, nor receiveth correction: truth is perished, and is cut off from their mouth.

Hebrews 1
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

Wait a minute…in a prior post…you said you do not even need the OT…

Anyway, this does not answer the question, how can the Bible speak?

You quote on Heb 1 says, God speaks through His Son…but did not mention the Bible.

So again, to my question…how can the Bible speak?

 

[daddyd]

The Bible was given totally by God, through the Church…both OT and NT.

So you are disregarding the OT then?

By the way…can you cite the chapter and verse where it says to disregard the OT?

If you cannot find one, then with you disregarding the OT…you following only a partial Bible.,and would you say then you are being unbiblical?

And you did not answer my question…which is the correct Bible, the protestant 66 Bible or the 73 book Catholic Bible?

There can only be one…so which is it?

Well, again pablope, If there is nothing in these books that will lead me to salvation. That is not in the other 66 books, I don’t need them. Can you show me something that is?

 

[Jon_S_1]

The bible is the inspired word of God. And sometimes His actual voice.

Deu5
24 And ye said, Behold, the Lord our God hath shewed us his glory and his greatness, and we have heard his voice out of the midst of the fire: we have seen this day that God doth talk with man, and he liveth.

Deuteronomy 8:20
As the nations which the Lord destroyeth before your face, so shall ye perish; because ye would not be obedient unto the voice of the Lord your God.
How can the Bible determine or tell you which has the truth and which has no truth?

Deuteronomy 13:18
When thou shalt hearken to the voice of the Lord thy God, to keep all his commandments which I command thee this day, to do that which is right in the eyes of the Lord thy God.

Jeremiah 7:28
But thou shalt say unto them, This is a nation that obeyeth not the voice of the Lord their God, nor receiveth correction: truth is perished, and is cut off from their mouth.

Hebrews 1
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

On what basis do you accept those books, I see no reason why you should accept them? The book of mormon claims to have God’s word in it too. Just because someone wrote something down and attributes it to God does not make it so.

You must have some other reason why you think the Bible is the Word of God?

Why do you reject parts of the Word of God in the Bible but not others?/

You realize every Bible printed before 1650…EVERY ONE…had 73 books in it.

Even every protestant Bible between 1550 and 1650 had 73 books in it…so why don’t you have 73 books in yours??

 

[spina1953]

What seems to me to be the important question is who has the authority to interpret Scripture, the CC or the individual. We know that Scripture is the Word of God, but has the authority to determine what it is saying and what it means? If it is not the Cc then it has to someone else; the individual unless they are willing to give it to someone the authority to say what it means and says. So if not the Church then who?

 

[Per_Crucem]

Then you say, well we hold to tradition and scripture, that is fine, show me where in the tradition it holds that one can be in disobedience to the Bishop. Where it shows that division and schism is a virtue? Where it shows that one can reject the pronouncements of the church councils.

If schism and division disprove the Reformation, then how does it figure that schism and division does not disprove the so-called apostolic churches? There were larger and more numerous schisms and divisions before the Reformation then the split between Rome and the Lutherans.

 

[Jon_S_1]

Well, again pablope, If there is nothing in these books that will lead me to salvation. That is not in the other 66 books, I don’t need them. Can you show me something that is?

This is the stupidest idea for a test of what books should be in the Bible I have heard!

First, define salvation, I would say there is lots in the deutercanonicals you need for salvation.

But even if there wasn’t, there is plenty in many of the other books of the Bible that is not critical for the message of salvation.

What in the book of Genesis is needed? Exodus? The Psalms? The minor prophets? Song of Solomon?

How about Judges and Kings?

1-3 John?

And many more…

Is you r bible the book of John and Romans only? You can probably get by with those for “salvation”.

Why have any of the rest if this is your litmus test?

 

[spina1953]

Why do all these miracles only seem to happen in this one Church? St. Januarius feast day in Itlay is today. Did his blood run through the viles today, or is someone trying to tell me something?

Hi Wildkit: I just read Catholic Worlds News Headlines and it said that the blood of St. Januarius did in fact run. So the miracle continues.

 

[Jon_S_1]

If schism and division disprove the Reformation, then how does it figure that schism and division does not disprove the so-called apostolic churches? There were larger and more numerous schisms and divisions before the Reformation then the split between Rome and the Lutherans.

I of course hold that the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church is the bearer of truth, the light in the dark, the holder of the apostolic faith.

The fact that groups have split from her is of no reflection on her.

I would ask which side are you on? The side of the dividers? Arius, Luther, Calvin?

OR

Are you in line with the Bishop? Are you of one mind with the Bishop.

Again, I share with you an apostolic father you claim to revere and ask how you can justify acting contrary to his description. Note he does not say submit to the Bishop as long as you agree with the Bishop.

“Not that I have found any division among you, but exceeding purity. For as many as are of God and of Jesus Christ are also with the bishop. And as many as shall, in the exercise of repentance, return into the unity of the Church, these, too, shall belong to God, and they may live according to Jesus Christ. Do not err, my brethren. If any man follows him that makes a schism in the Church, he shall not inherit the kingdom of God. If any one walks according to a strange opinion, he agrees not with the passion [of Christ].” -Epistle to the Philippians Chapter III 107 AD

“In like manner let all reverence the deacons as an appointment of Jesus Christ, and the bishop as Jesus Christ, who is the Son of the Father, and the presbyters as the sanhedrim of God, and assembly of the Apostles.” -Epistle to the Trallians Chapter III 107AD

“See that ye all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery as ye would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as being the institution of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude [of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. It is not lawful without the bishop either to baptize or to celebrate a love-feast; but whatsoever he shall approve of, that is also pleasing to God, so that everything that is done may be secure and valid.” -Epistle to the Smyrenaens Chapter VIII 107AD

 

[Isaiah45_9]

I agree to some extent, but to say that the reformation is so closely tied to us I think is an error,

What!? We were the main character

I am also trying to point out a frame of reference that is different between protestants and Catholics in my experience.

Didn’t Catholicism suddenly clicked for you? Didn’t it feed your spirit? On a personal level, our experience is not that different than any of them or any other religion for that matter.

I don’t think this is the best way to approach this situation. Because it is really something relevant to the individual.

Say I ask you:

“How do you determined that Catholicism holds the truth?” You can say the Church all day long, but the bottom line is that you are the one that attends, you are the one who believes, you are the one that submits. Now substitute all the [you’s] with * and please tell me how is that any different from what Jon is saying?

As a protestant, I would have never attended a church that held a teaching I disagreed with personally.

As a protestant I attended any church I could find! I was thirsty for learning, things didn’t make sense - some still don’t! lol.

As a Catholic, it is not about what I agree with, it is about what the Church teaches.

Fallacious reasoning. You agree as a person with what the Church teaches. You accept it as a person. We can’t reasonably agree with things we don’t fully understand.

What is Spirit?

How exactly does the Trinity work?

I doubt any one of us can reasonably and logically explain those 2 subjects. Even thou we agree with them, we don’t truly fully understand them.

It is still you, Jon S, an individual making a personal decision.*

 

[daddyd]

I do look to God, I look only to God and his word. God led me from Evangleical Protestantism to the Catholic Church. It was a pure miracle. I did not know a single Catholic, it was all by his grace and guidance.

This is how you are dodging questions.

You cannot answer the question, you just continue to point to Bible verses in the Catholic Bible.

What question?

Do you think we don’t read it? Do you think that in 2000 years there have not been volumes written by Catholics on every verse you post?

Yet, it is you who declare what is true. You who declares that the Bible is the Word of God.

So do you

I do look to God, I look only to God and his word.

You have absolutely zero ways of telling us what books belong in the Bible and which Books are part of the Bible without the Catholic Church, yet you quote it as if God handed it to you directly? And on top of that you don’t even have a complete Bible!!

So, you are saying that the bible is the word of God? You think it is a Catholic book I don’t , but I don’t think it matters.

I would love for you to honestly address the questions.

Again what questions?

I know you are new here, but thus far you think you are clever, but it is nothing we have not seen a million times. When we see arguments like yours we all just laugh and shake our heads at how silly you are being.

Well I’m glad I can be the source of some amusement for you. As for arguments like mine, all I am saying is the bible is the word of God and all the information we need for our salvation is in it. Don’t you believe this?

 

[pablope]

Well, again pablope, If there is nothing in these books that will lead me to salvation. That is not in the other 66 books, I don’t need them. Can you show me something that is?

You are dodging and trying to change the subject.

The question is:

And you did not answer my question…which is the correct Bible, the protestant 66 Bible or the 73 book Catholic Bible?

There can only be one…so which is it?