Protestants: How Do You Know That Your Interpretation of the Bible is the Right one? Part II

[MDK]

Instead of answering me, you choose to more or less call me a liar.

You are right though, the Holy Spirit does not guide us into err. The problem lies within those who lead the spirit. If only you could see that.

I tell the truth, which bears true witness to your behaviors. If you don’t like what the truth reveals about your behaviors, then you need to change them so that you are pleased when someone speaks the truth about your behaviors.

We do see one who is not being led by the Spirit of God, but by an errant spirit of the world into worldly misinterpretations of the Heavenly Truths. In doing this, you are preferring to make water from wine that God made, as in taking God’s grace and protection out of the equation. Why not do things the way God set it up? Are you even open to this, to investigate with an open mind the way God set things up?

 

[MDK]

Image that.

He who says he loves God, but hates his brother is a liar. I can honestly say I love you, can you do the same?

I didn’t see any hatred from Peter in his response. So, how can you say that you love someone, and at the same time bear false witness?

 

[Louie1983]

Louie1983:Sorry, bud, but I must respectfully disagree with you on the issue of dressing for church,especially after watching men enter a catholic church wearing Levi’s and a casual shirt, just ten(10) days ago! Why do so many people busy themselves with the outside of the cup? When you come to Christ, is it necessary to wear a tuxedo, or a $2000 suit? You never know where you are gong to be, when the Holy Spirit leads you to the Saviour! And what is a bibel? Anything like a Bible, which your church claims to have written? Jesus Himself, told me not to call any man on this earth Father; and no matter how you call him, the pope is not holy, and he is NOT my Father! The only Holy Father I recognize, is the Almighty, Living God! And tone down the condemnation a bit

I apologise for mispelling the word Bible, but that’s pretty much where your argument ends my friend.

Typically, you have taken my comments way out of context. I’m not asking for anyone to wear $2000 suits ot tuxedos, just dress respectfully as when you enter a Catholic Church you are facing Jesus himself in the Eucharist. And by the way if you are saying that dressing in casual clothes and levi’s is OK or it doesn;t matter how you dress, then why are you portraying the men who wore the casual clothes and levis in a bad light? i thought it didn’t matter to you how they dress?. 1beleevr, just because some Catholics don’t dress appropriately doesn’t mean everyone does it, you shouldn’t base your arguments on the conduct of some who don’t dress respectfully.

And to correct you, the Catholic Church does not claim to have written the Bible, Just the New Testament (maybe a refresher in history might serve you well here? oh that’s right, the holy spirit guides you to the truth…)

You say “you never know where you will be when the holy spirit leads you to the saviour”, clearly, you don’t know where you are because you are outside God’s holy church (the Catholic churchjust incase you were confused)

No-one claimed that the Pope is your Father, And YES he is holy i’m sorry to say (well actually i’m not). He is the leader of God’s church here on earth as he handed him the keys to the kigdom of heaven (Matt. 16:17 ,Matt. 16:18 ,Matt. 16:19 ). So you clearly disagreeing with what Jesus has instituted here and backed up also by hundreds of quotes from early church fathers. Oh wait, you don’t trust them right? Tell me, if you don’t trust them then why should anyone trust you? are you not human like them? we obviously know what the difference here is between the early church fathers and you.

As you can see i have clearly rebutted all your arguments but i know what your response will be because you are blind to truth and to God’s word. Your argument is basically your ability to take my comments way out of context and to then quote bible passages without really knowing what they mean.

And you ask me to tone down the condemnation? This is just honest dialogue between 2 lovers of Christ,nothing personal. If anything it’s you who needs to tone down the condemnation, come home to God’s church before it’s late!

 

[Louie1983]

Image that.

He who says he loves God, but hates his brother is a liar. I can honestly say I love you, can you do the same?

Yes definately! i can definately say i love you! and it’s because i love i want you to come to the fullness of the truth which only lies in the Holy Catholic Church!

 

[Peter_J]

Originally Posted by Peter J
Same here, except for the “Sorry” part.

I’m a little confused with regard to your response-to-my-response, but yes I can honestly say I love you (and I believe you say you love me).

 

[PRmerger]

Are you sure? I am not bound by my previous interpretations…I am not bound by EO interpretations…I am not bound by RC interpretations

Or I guess you could be saying that we all decide for ourselves what it is that we will believe…and that we are all bound by our own beliefs and follow our own consciences. After all Christ asks, “Who do you say I am?” and not “Who did others tell you to say I am?”

Accepted. But what you are bound by is the notion that you are your own ultimate authority.

 

[Peter_J]

Was it God’s will to kill or torture in the name of Christ? Did not Jesus say to turn the other cheek, to love our enemies. I usually don’t like going in this direction, but feel I must at this time. Your claim over and over again that the CC is the one true church can be bebunked just by using history. Or was there just some bad popes?

There have been some very bad popes, including heretical ones. (Not that they completely account for all the atrocities done by Catholics over the centuries – for example, during the Crusades there were a lot of bad stuff done by a lot of different Catholics.)

 

[1beleevr]

Louie1983: W-H-E-W! Settle down, son! Man, if you are an example of catholic “love” then I’ll pass! I of course, purposely exaggerated the issue with $2000 suits, and tuxedos, to point out the absurdity of someone else on this thread, making such a big deal about dressing"appropriately for church! You see, your church’s idea of appropriate, and mine are most likely polar opposites! I added the part about the men entering the catholic church, because this writer(I don’t remember who), made it sound like that every catholic dressed up for church! And if you don’t believe that you can meet Jesus outside of the church, then you are sadly deluded! You are putting chains on Him, and saying the only time there is real presence is in the eucharistCan anybody say Paul, on the road to Damascus; or two believers on the road to Emmaus? And with all due respect to the pope, the last time I looked, he was still human, which means that, like the rest of us, he is not yet holy:thumbsup: For me the title of Holy Father is for the Almighty Living God, and none other I respect the pope(and forgive his membership in the Hitler Youth), but cannot accept him as my authority.Philllippians1:6, Matthew 23:9,Matthew 23:25.

 

[JRKH]

JRKH;I know that you claim to be led by the Holy Spirit and that your understanding of Scripture (Interpretation) is correct.
I too claim to be led by the Holy Spirit and claim that my understanding of Scripture is correct.
This has nothing to do with “catholic indoctrination” since it was by the prompting of the Holy Spirit that I came home to the Church.
The Spirit led me to understand that the Catholic Church is the One True and Protected Church that Christ founded.
The Spirit did this through Scripture and through Prayer.

So in response to your assertion above, The teachings of the Church cannot be different than the Word of God since The Church has the Protection of God.

You are right when you say the church has the protection of the Holy Spirit, but in your opinion it is only the CC.

Was it God’s will to kill or torture in the name of Christ? Did not Jesus say to turn the other cheek, to love our enemies. I usually don’t like going in this direction, but feel I must at this time. Your claim over and over again that the CC is the one true church can be bebunked just by using history. Or was there just some bad popes?

So I will ask you this, should the Church have blood on it’s hands?

Heis,
How sad your response is.

I find this most interesting - How it is that you can change subject and direction - in direct contradiction to your previous assertion that you discuss faith by the “Word of God”.
I have included the relevent quotes above so that you can hopefully see how disingenuous you are at times.
You said that we were wrong for using “interpretations” of the Word of God and that you use ONLY the Word of God.
When I expressed to you that I, by the prompting of God’s Holy Spirit and using scripture, came home to the Catholic Church, you immediately attacked that Church which the Spirit Led me to AND you want to do it by Appealing to HISTORY and not Scripture.
So you undercut your own argument right there.

**James said **

So now -
With our positions clearly stated, I will ask you again, as I have in the past, to explain how we discern who is right and who is wrong?
Scripture does not give the answer because we both claim scripture basis.
Claiming the Holy Spirit does not give the answer but only points to the problem for two opposing answers cannot both be “Of the Spirit”.
Who can we Take it to?
I know - Let’s obey Christ, who prayed for our unity -
Let us obey Christ, our King and Savior -
Let us Obey Christ and "Tell it To The Church.

Until you can obey this Command of Christ - what are we to make of your assertions that we are wrong?
Nothing more than just one more “interpretation”.

So when will your pope be showing up at my church?

How do I respond to such childish silliness???
Should I even try???
Did the Holy Spirit Himself inspire your pithy response?

You claim to use only Scripture - So I have asked you a perfectly legitimate question - From Scripture.
A question which, if you are a true follower of Christ, you should be able to honestly and charitably answer.
Instead, you respond with a snide quip.
How sad.
Is this the best you can do?

As to when the Pope will show up at your Church, perhaps you should invite him.
Perhaps someone from the Diocese would come and discuss the differences with you. Have you ever thought of that? Would you listen, honestly and openly if they did?

The Truth is that you Cannot “Tell it to the Church” because you reject Christ’s plea for unity, you reject Christ’s command that we submit to His Authority through His Church. You do this and cannot even see it. All you can do is attack His Church based soley on your “Anti-Catholic Indoctrination”.

What do they call a person who helps another commit a crime? Even if he is only the getaway driver, he is charged just the same. So if what a man defends is wrong, and the man instead of admitting it, turns his head, is he not guilty as well?

I suggest you go back and read the events that occurred in World War II and what position your church took.

Do the Jews deserve to die since they are the ones who killed Jesus? Does God still view the Jewish people as his chosen people?

None of the Above has anything to do with "discussing faith using the “Word of God”.
ALL of the Above is a clear demonstration of your own “Anti-Catholic indoctrination” that blinds you to the Truth of the Church. You accuse us of being “indoctrinated” but cannot see your own “indocrination”. Sad-Sad-Sad

Since you stated originally that you use only the “Word of God” to discuss Faith, and that is precisely how I responded to you, by using Scripture, I suggest you go back and ponder my assertions about Christ wanting us to be of one mind, and of Christ commanding us to “Tell it to the Church” - Both of which are from Scripture.
If you do this, and pull away from your “Anti-Catholic Indoctrination” you might actually learn something.

I’m sorry if the above sounds harsh, but you might recall heis, that you and I have been down this road before. I know how misinformed you are about the Catholic Church.

I suggest that if you wish to discuss historical issues you start another thread on the topic.

Peace
James
[/QUOTE]

 

[JRKH]

Instead of answering me, you choose to more or less call me a liar.

You are right though, the Holy Spirit does not guide us into err. The problem lies within those who lead the spirit. If only you could see that.

Heis,
In this response, which is to MDK’s post about your own error, you demonstrate once again the need for an earthly “tie-breaker”. Christ Clearly Saw this and provided for it in His Church which has the Authority to Bind and Loose.

Take note please that the term “Church” is used only twice in the Gospels, both times by Christ Himself and Both times in the context of granting Authority to Govern and to Bind and Loose.

Peace
James

 

[Peter_J]

MDK;5201900:

Well, this once again confirms that you really don’t understand the meaning of Scriptures. In other words, you don’t understand without error what God has revealed. It’s not that you’ve got it 100% wrong, but you’ve got a lot of error, so that you are so far off track that you call the lightness as dark, and the darkness as some shades of gray.

You’re right that God didn’t intend a bunch of different denominations. That’s why He didn’t make one. The Catholic Church built by God is not a denomination, but is the one true Church. There is not a need for any others, as God never made any others. The one true Church has all seven of Jesus’ Sacraments, including the first which is Baptism by water and the Spirit. This is how God established it, and this is how the Church has done it from the early Church with the Apostles until today with the successors of the Apostles.

The Holy Spirit does not guide into error, and so you are not being guided by the Holy Spirit. Why? Because you have shown a lot of error in what you write.

The teachings you reject are God’s teachings. The understandings and meaning of the Scriptures you accept and hold higher than God’s teachings, are in fact erroneous.

Instead of answering me, you choose to more or less call me a liar.

You are right though, the Holy Spirit does not guide us into err. The problem lies within those who lead the spirit. If only you could see that.

Hi heiscominginthe and MDK,

To be honest, following the conversation between you two is pretty tiresome. Who wants to read an endless series of rhetoric and triumphalism? (Although I have to admit that you’re both pretty good at finding and new interesting ways of saying I’m right and you’re wrong. ) Sorry, but I’m not going to read it anymore.

 

[guanophore]

Sorry, but if the teachings of the CC are different from the Word of God, I will not accept them.

This is understandible, since you have been given a great deal of misinformation about the Catholic Church.

However, there are no teachings of the CC that are “different from the Word of God”. You see, Jesus deposited the Word into the Church, and the Church then produced the Bible. There is nothing in the Bible that contradicts the Teaching of Jesus found in the CC.

What does contradict is your perceptions of what the Bible says. You have already admitted that your perceptions, unlike those of the CC, are not infallible. But, what you are saying, then, is that you have more confidence in your own perceptions than what God has revealed.

I discuss the faith using the Word of God. Most catholics here discuss, using the interpretation of the CC. Can you not look and discuss using the Word of God only, without the CC indoctrination?

Sure, one can discuss the Scriptures apart from the Apostolic Teaching. That is how error results. This started shortly after the scriptures were penned, and has been going on ever since. Here is an early testimony against such heresy:

“Those, therefore, who desert the preaching of the Church, call in question the knowledge of the holy presbyters, not taking into consideration of how much greater consequence is a religious man, even in a private station, than a blasphemous and impudent sophist. Now, such are all the heretics, and those who imagine that they have hit upon something more beyond the truth, so that by following those things already mentioned, proceeding on their way variously, in harmoniously, and foolishly, not keeping always to the same opinions with regard to the same things, as blind men are led by the blind, they shall deservedly fall into the ditch of ignorance lying in their path, ever seeking and never finding out the truth. It behooves us, therefore, to avoid their doctrines, and to take careful heed lest we suffer any injury from them; but to flee to the Church, and be brought up in her bosom, and be nourished with the Lord’s Scriptures." Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 5,20:2 (A.D. 180).

Irenaeus was surrounded by those who tried to interpret the scriputures against the Teaching of the Apostles alive and well in the Church. Jesus committed His teaching to the Apostles. It is from them that we learn properly the meaning of the scriptures.

Is it not your responsibility to be defenders of the faith, guarding against false teachings? Yet, to do this, one must be free of indoctrination, but will stand on truth alone whether it comes by way of any denoms or nondenoms.

Yes, it is our duty to guard against false teaching. However, you are wrong about how this is to be done. Contrary to what you say, we are to be steeped in right doctrine.

1 Tim 1:3
3 As I urged you when I was going to Macedonia, remain at Ephesus that you may charge certain persons not to teach any different doctrine,

How is Timothy to know what doctrine is “different”? He is to cling ot what he received from the Apostle.

1 Tim 6:20-21

20 O Timothy, guard what has been entrusted to you. Avoid the godless chatter and contradictions of what is falsely called knowledge, 21 for by professing it some have missed the mark as regards the faith.

This is what the Magesterium has done. All the Bishops, from Timothy until today, are charged with this duty to guard what has been entrusted to them. The Spirit of God, infallible, has protected this divine deposit of faith in the Church.

Titus 2:1
2:1 But as for you, teach what befits sound doctrine.

How can Titus teach sound doctrine, if he has not been indoctrinated?

2 John 9-11
9 Any one who goes ahead and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God; he who abides in the doctrine has both the Father and the Son. 10 If any one comes to you and does not bring this doctrine, do not receive him into the house or give him any greeting; 11 for he who greets him shares his wicked work.

What doctrine is “this doctrine”? It was that which was committed to theApostles:

Mark 4:33-34
33 With many such parables he spoke the word to them, as they were able to hear it; 34 he did not speak to them without a parable, but privately to his own disciples he explained everything.

Jesus “indoctrinated” them, showing them the truth.

Jesus Himself showed them how to understand the scriptures:

Luke 24:44-45
45 Then he opened their minds to understand the scriptures…"

The Apostles then chose faithful men who were able to teach others also. God watched over His word, so that it would not fail in the Church. This is what is meant by “the HS will lead you into all Truth”.

Is the CC infallible,

Yes, because her Head is Christ, and her Soul is the HS. These divine elements of the Church is what make her infallible.

the only bearer of the truth of the Word of God?

No, the Word of God is not confined to the Church any more that it is the Scripture. The Word of God is living and active, and may appear anywhere.

What we know is that the Word of God committed to the Church is infallible, and we can trust it absolutely.

Is the Methodist church infallible, the only bearer of the truth of the Word of God?

No, all Church’s emanating from the Reformation have men at their head. They are not churches founded by Christ, but by those who rejected the authority appointed by Christ.

 

[guanophore]

The point I am trying to make here is there are infallible truths alone which come only from God, the author of all truth.

It is very Catholic of you to say that!

These infallible truths subsist in the Catholic Church because that is where God put them.

How long will men hide behind their demoninations before they discover there are no denominations in heaven. There is only the gospel of Jesus Christ.

You probably can answer that better than anyone, heis. Why are you not Catholic? Basically what you are saying here is that you perceptions of what is right matter more to you than what God has revealed to humankind.

For did Christ die for all men or just for those destined to be part of this denom or that nondenom.

Christ’s death is effective for all, but not all choose to participate in saving blood by which we are saved.

Are all who are born again only catholic or only methodist or only presbyterian.

The Apostles taught that anyone who was validly baptized was born again of water and Spirit.

It is written that God is not a respector of persons. So salvation comes by the Word of God, comes by the way of the Holy Spirit, not by the hands of an infallible religion.

The Word of God has come to us through the Church He established. He indoctrinated (put right teaching into) His Apostles, then sent the HS to remind them of what He had taught, and to lead them into all truth. Jesus does not separate Himself from His Bride, the church.

Instead of answering me, you choose to more or less call me a liar.

I do not think you are a liar. I don’t even believe the persons who gave you the misinformation you were taught are liars. I don’t even think the Reformers, who initially invented the lies did so in a deliberate attempt to deceive. I think all of you are sincere well meaning Christians, wanting the truth. I think, in all honesty, you believe what you were told, and your own perceptions are the truth. I think you all are convinced you are led by the HS.

You are right though, the Holy Spirit does not guide us into err. The problem lies within those who lead the spirit. If only you could see that.

Exactly! And how are we to discern this? Should we rely on our own fallible perceptions? This is what you are suggesting. However, the Apostles taught differently.

Gal 1:6-9

6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and turning to a different gospel - 7 not that there is another gospel, but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to that which we preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again, If any one is preaching to you a gospel contrary to that which you received, let him be accursed.

The Apostles taught that we should hold fast to the gospel they preached.

You are right when you say the church has the protection of the Holy Spirit, but in your opinion it is only the CC.

We say that because we know that Jesus only founded One Church, and it is Catholic. There are, however, many Catholic Truths, protected by the HS, that exist in other ecclesial communities. The belief in the inerrancy of the Bible one of the main ones.

Was it God’s will to kill or torture in the name of Christ? Did not Jesus say to turn the other cheek, to love our enemies. I usually don’t like going in this direction, but feel I must at this time. Your claim over and over again that the CC is the one true church can be bebunked just by using history. Or was there just some bad popes?

You are confused about the gift of infallibility. This gift protects the Church from teaching error. It does not protect men who decide to sin against God from falling away from the faith. The HS does not prevent people from turning their back on God. YEs, there have been bad popes, bad bishops, bad priests, bad laypersons. These people do not invalidate the Teaching any more that the denial of Judas invalidates the teaching of Jesus.

So I will ask you this, should the Church have blood on it’s hands?

Certainly not. And, since she is holy and pure, she will never. However, evil men who choose not to follow the teachings of holy mother church do have plenty of it, and will answer for it to God.

 

[Good_Fella]

… the catholic position seems to be, that if you didn’t hear it from “us”, it aint’ true! Hebrews 13:8 says that"Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, as He is today, and will be tomorrow."

Then stop presuming you can change our Lord as he has revealed his mind and will through the traditional teachings of his Church these past 2,000 years on the foundation of the Apostles. We Catholics are on our guard against the likes of you. :knight2:

If anyone preaches to you the gospel other than the one that you received, let that one be accursed.
Galatians 1, 9

For if someone comes and preaches another Jesus than the one we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it well enough.
2 Corinthians 11, 4

… I can’t believe that Jesus"s commands Matthew 28:19-20] were directed soley to His apostles!

Jesus is strictly addressing his apostles when he commands them to make disciples of all nations by baptism and to teach them how to observe the word of God. The authority to teach and purvey the sacraments was conferred solely on the apostles and their successors. General believers do not have a share in the ministerial priesthood. :nope:

So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the holy ones of the household of God, built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the capstone.
Ephesians 2, 20

But the one who gives us security with you in Christ and who annointed us is God; he has also put his seal upon us and given the Spirit in our hearts as a first installment.
2 Corinthians 1, 21-22

They were to make disciples, and those disciples, were to make disciples, and so on! And it doesn’t stop there!

These disciples you speak of are those who constitute the common royal priesthood of believers by virtue of their one common baptism in Christ. :yup:

*“To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood, who has made us into a kingdom, priests for his God and Father” *
Revelation 1, 6

They have not been appointed by the Holy Spirit to share in the public ministry of Jesus in the divine office as were the apostles and are their valid successors in the episcopacy. Bishops, with priests as their co-workers, are “heralds of faith” as “authentic teachers of the apostolic faith who draw new disciples to Christ endowed with the authority of Christ”.
(cf. CCC 888)

“As the Father has sent me, so I am sending you.”
John 20, 21

Keep watch over yourselves and over the whole flock of which the holy Spirit has appointed you overseers, in which you tend the church of God that he acquired with his own blood.
*Acts 20, 28 *

We as Christians are charged with going forward with the Good News of the Gospel, making disciples of those who were once lost!

To preserve the Church in the purity of faith Christ willed to confer on his bride a share in his own infallibilty under the guidance of the Magisterium: the pope in communion with the college of bishops. When individual Catholic clerics such as Arius, Nestorious, and Luther attempted to go forward, as you put it, with the Good News of the Gospel with no divine authority, the result was heresy and the scattering of Christ’s flock. But the Scriptures warn us about such presumptuous individuals who have not been appointed by the Holy Spirit to free lance.

“And from your own group men will come forward perverting the truth to draw disciples after them. So be vigilant.”
Acts 20, 30-31

…And I also believe, that to say God only speaks to and through those who are identified as being in the line of “apostolic succession” is doing a disservice to him.

When Jesus promised to send the Paraclete to assist his apostles in understanding and teaching what has truly been divinely revealed as an article of faith, he had their valid successors also in mind. This divine mandate to authentically teach has not been conferred on the laity. It rests on the foundation of the apostles and continues until the end of time through an unbroken lineage in the Church hierarchy. Jesus willed that his flock be shepherded unceasingly until he returns when he commissioned his apostles.

The wall of the city had twelve courses of stones as its foundation, on which were inscribed the twelve names of the twelve apostles, of the Lamb.
Revelation 21, 14

PAX :harp:

 

[guanophore]

 So when will your pope be showing up at my church?

There is only one church, heis, and the Pope is the vicar thereof. If you want to receive the Petrine Gift, just turn on your TV or radio. He is on it every day, shepherding and guiding the flock. This week, he is in Palestine, trying to reconcile those who are of the faith of Abraham.

What do they call a person who helps another commit a crime? Even if he is only the getaway driver, he is charged just the same. So if what a man defends is wrong, and the man instead of admitting it, turns his head, is he not guilty as well?

Indeed, at least guilty of conspiracy. Why would you lay such guilt at the feet of Jesus, as Head of His pure Bride,the Church? Do you think that Jesus deprived men of their free will, and ability to do evil?

I suggest you go back and read the events that occurred in World War II and what position your church took.

We can sure do this, but it really belongs in another thread. I recommend you reconsider, though, since it was the words and attitudes of your spiritual ancestor, Martin Luther, that fanned the flames of atrocities committed there.

Do the Jews deserve to die since they are the ones who killed Jesus? Does God still view the Jewish people as his chosen people?

This is off topic in this thread, but a very good point for discussion! Perhaps you did not know that Mr. “grace alone by faith alone” did not apply his teaching to the Jews?

I usually don’t like going in this direction, but feel I must at this time.

Have you ever considered that going by one’s feelings is not necessarily a good idea?

What changed, the you now believe you must give in to slander and calumny? Are you feeling so defeated by the fact that Catholics here are well formed in their faith (indoctrinated)?

The truth is, you don’t have to “go in this direction”. You could be more noble,and accept that what you have been taught is not not true.

 

[MDK]

Hi heiscominginthe and MDK,

To be honest, following the conversation between you two is pretty tiresome. Who wants to read an endless series of rhetoric and triumphalism? (Although I have to admit that you’re both pretty good at finding and new interesting ways of saying I’m right and you’re wrong. ) Sorry, but I’m not going to read it anymore.

Well, I’d have to say you weren’t reading it as it truly existed in the first place. It is ignorant (whether willfully or innocently I don’t know) to say mine for instance is about me being right. Perhaps the behavior of projection plays a role in your mischaracterization. It may bother the lukewarm in the Church, that others refuse to engage in behaviors denigrating either the Church or of genuine Catholic beliefs, and who go on to defend the Church as the pillar and bulwark of the truth. Any Catholic understanding the truth must understand that the context of this thread (and in general), is that no moral equivalency exists between Catholicism and Protestantism. One of these of course deserves defense, but Protestantism deserves to be exposed for what it really is, and the harm it can do to its adherents. Unfortunately, adherents to Protestantism exist inside the Church as well as outside. I for one never find truth tiresome, but find it fascinating and desire more.

 

[heiscominginthe]

I tell the truth, which bears true witness to your behaviors. If you don’t like what the truth reveals about your behaviors, then you need to change them so that you are pleased when someone speaks the truth about your behaviors.

We do see one who is not being led by the Spirit of God, but by an errant spirit of the world into worldly misinterpretations of the Heavenly Truths. In doing this, you are preferring to make water from wine that God made, as in taking God’s grace and protection out of the equation. Why not do things the way God set it up? Are you even open to this, to investigate with an open mind the way God set things up?

It is written, judge and ye will be judged. I will pray the Lord forgive you. I already have.

 

[Peter_J]

I will pray the Lord forgive you. I already have.

I don’t suppose you’ve ever read Moliere?

“Forgive him, Lord, as I’ve already done.”

• Tartuffe, Act III Scene VII (translation by Richard Wilbur)

 

[MDK]

It is written, judge and ye will be judged. I will pray the Lord forgive you. I already have.

Thank you, I always appreciate prayer. Our Cardinal DiNardo asks that we pray for him as well. Will you do me the favor of praying for him that he can do his job better which includes preachig God’s true teachings to help bring into the fold those espousing non Catholic teachings, i.e. heretical teacings?

Yes it has never been a problem for you to directly quote Scripture, as anyone can. The problem is with assumption of false authority leading to improper interpretation and then application. Sadly, like almost everything we’ve seen from you, you misapply this passage as well. For example, if “I tell the truth, which bears true witness to your behaviors” then it is the truth bearing witness against false behaviors. The person honestly discerning what I wrote would admit that it is not me who bears witness against you, but the truth compared to your chosen behaviors. It is for you to compare, and hopefully learn. To “shoot the messenger” of the truth will never get you anywhere.

I also tell you truthfully “we do see one who is not being led by the Spirit of God, but by an errant spirit of the world into worldly misinterpretations of the Heavenly Truths.” There is no condemnation of you, but of these behaviors which are not serving you, but leading you away from Christ. Christ did exactly the same, and like anyone who truly loves Him, I follow. This is for your own benefit, as mine is not the objective of the admonition here.

I also asked “why not do things the way God set it up? Are you even open to this, to investigate with an open mind the way God set things up?” Do you have some problem with this? Please at least consider this to yourself, even if you don’t reply to us.

So, if you listened to the truth, you could help yourself. As it is, you seem more satisfied with those misleading you, happily embracing those who tell you falsehoods. This kind of behavior must be examined and compared to the truth as much as we can. If you listened to me, I could be the best friend you’ve ever had, as I tell you the truth of Christ. But, it’s not me you need to listen to, but we all need to listen to those men protected by the Holy Spirit whom Christ sent to continue His mission. If you continue to reject them, your eventual judgement by the Lord may not go as well as you hope. Neither would mine if I were to engage in that same behavior, and so I desire to show my love for Christ by among other things, listening to those Christ sent.

I apprecite your willingness to forgive, and I hope you are also willing to forgive in case there is a genuine trespass that occurs. I pray that the Lord forgives my shortcomings as well, even if there is no tresspass in regard to what I’ve told you. By implying one, then that would be considered bearing false witness against the one innocent of the charge. Perhaps I can bank it in case there is something in the future from me to you that requires your forgiveness, or it can be used in some case where it truly is needed.

I ask you to please continue praying for me, perhaps learning and praying a Rosary a day would be appreciated. When you pray the Our Father, please think about “Thy Kingdom come” includes the spreading of God’s earthly Kingdom of the Catholic Church; “Thy Will be done” means His instead of our own personal will, which many who even though feeling sincere… reject His teachings in favor of their own.

 

[MDK]

Dear Peter,

In post 1009, you write:

Hi heiscominginthe and MDK,…Sorry, but I’m not going to read it anymore.

in post 1015, heiscoming… wrote:

It is written, judge and ye will be judged. I will pray the Lord forgive you. I already have.

then in post 1016, you respond to post 1015:

I don’t suppose you’ve ever read Moliere?

“Forgive him, Lord, as I’ve already done.”

• Tartuffe, Act III Scene VII (translation by Richard Wilbur)

Is this behavior “not reading”, or “selectively not listening”? Granted that when something or someone passionately supprts Catholicism, it may be out of other people’s comfort zones, and tend to selectively feel more comfortable or “listen” to something not so passionate… behavior not unheard of. On the other hand, perhaps my post 1014 cleared up the intent for you, so you understand.

Heiscoming, can you please pray for Peter too?