Protestants: How Do You Know That Your Interpretation of the Bible is the Right one? Part II

[Radical]

So, you’re saying that you’ve come up with who Christ is all on your own?

well Christ’s comment to Peter would indicate that the Father has something to do with it…but who Christ is, is plainly stated in the NT

Indeed we all do decide for ourselves what we believe, but all of us have been introduced to, and have learned the essentials of Christianity, from others who have provided us with scriptural interpretation.

In my terminology to receive an introduction and an education is not to become bound by the giver.

As a Christian, you are bound to Christ’s teachings…to this you would agree.

exactly

And therefore you bind yourself to those beliefs you have decided upon, and they have come from the scriptural interpretations of others.

I have come to the habit of checking everything for myself.

Hence, my question…to whose interpretations do you bind yourself to? Is it a specific ecclesial community? A specific individual? A group?

No particular community. Regarding beliefs within the core rule of faith (as described by the very earliest creeds and by Tertullian and Irenaeus) I note that there is a great deal of unity among those who call themselves Christian. These beliefs are clearly set out in scripture and so there is little need to identify with any denomination. Outside of that core rule of faith (were the vast majority of variation exists) I have what you would seem to call a mosaic of people (whose opinions I consider), but I do not feel bound by any of their opinions.

Most non-Catholics bind themselves to a mosaic of human teaching they’ve encountered throughout their lives, adding and subtracting from this mosaic as their conscience moves them.

I think we are using “bind” differently….and I am not sure about “conscience” as I would also throw intellect into the mix.

Unfortunately, our consciences are not geared to discern what is absolute truth, but rather are geared to our behavior in light of accepted beliefs. The key, therefore, is to ensure we are recipients of authentic truth regarding Christ, so that our consciences can properly guide us in our walk in faith.

You are right that fallible humans have difficulty in determining truth. That being said I note that Paul says this regarding men: For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. Ever since the creation of the world his invisible nature, namely, his eternal power and deity, has been clearly perceived in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse;

Obviously there is a sufficient ability to discern truth (even by the unsaved) such that they are w/o excuse. That ability would only be enhanced by the presence of the Holy Spirit.

While we are noting man’s limitations I would point out a couple of others. JRKH asked, “Has Anyone ever seen a Priest or Preacher on a Sunday simply rise, read a passage of scripture and then sit down?” My answer would be “Rarely.” There is a tendency for men to read into a passage that which is not there. Usually, they will add a truth from another passage to the passage in question but occasionally they add their own inventions. I do not think that the ECFs were at all immune to this problem.

Second, Lord Acton observed: I cannot accept your canon that we are to judge Pope and King unlike other men, with a favorable presumption that they did not wrong. If there is any presumption it is the other way against holders of power, increasing as the power increases. Historic responsibility has to make up for the want of legal responsibility. All power tends to corrupt and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Great men are almost always bad men, even when they exercise influence and not authority: still more when you superadd the tendency or the certainty of corruption by authority.

Lord Acton may have overstated it a bit, but the man had a point.

You may disagree with all this, but as a former Bible-only Christian, I am interested in how you find comfort with the array of divergent human teachings that exist outside The Church.

It doesn’t bother me b/c I see it existing (for the most part) outside of the core rule of faith. What concerns me more is the tendency of men to add to the faith and the tendency for men to acquire power for themselves and their institutions. Combine those two tendencies and I see the very real possibility that a church would try to acquire for itself the status of The Church….and from there add to what must be believed.

For me, I could not find such comfort, as I was perpetually compelled to ask myself, “by what authority is this person preaching to me Christian doctrine?”

As long as he is not adding to the doctrine or claiming an authority for himself I don’t ask the question. The pastor at my church has certain authority b/c we appointed him to that position…so I know by what authority he acts. As for the congregation’s authority to appoint the fellow (and others), we follow the guidelines outlined by Paul wrt what qualifications a leader must possess.

 

[MDK]

Sorry, but if the teachings of the CC are different from the Word of God, I will not accept them.

I discuss the faith using the Word of God. Most catholics here discuss, using the interpretation of the CC. Can you not look and discuss using the Word of God only, without the CC indoctrination?

Is it not your responsibility to be defenders of the faith, guarding against false teachings? Yet, to do this, one must be free of indoctrination, but will stand on truth alone whether it comes by way of any denoms or nondenoms.

Is the CC infallible, the only bearer of the truth of the Word of God?

Is the Methodist church infallible, the only bearer of the truth of the Word of God?

The point I am trying to make here is there are infallible truths alone which come only from God, the author of all truth.

How long will men hide behind their demoninations before they discover there are no denominations in heaven. There is only the gospel of Jesus Christ.

For did Christ die for all men or just for those destined to be part of this denom or that nondenom.

Are all who are born again only catholic or only methodist or only presbyterian.

It is written that God is not a respector of persons. So salvation comes by the Word of God, comes by the way of the Holy Spirit, not by the hands of an infallible religion.

For there is an infallible church and is it not all those who are born again, being baptized into Christ through faith?

Well, this once again confirms that you really don’t understand the meaning of Scriptures. In other words, you don’t understand without error what God has revealed. It’s not that you’ve got it 100% wrong, but you’ve got a lot of error, so that you are so far off track that you call the lightness as dark, and the darkness as some shades of gray.

You’re right that God didn’t intend a bunch of different denominations. That’s why He didn’t make one. The Catholic Church built by God is not a denomination, but is the one true Church. There is not a need for any others, as God never made any others. The one true Church has all seven of Jesus’ Sacraments, including the first which is Baptism by water and the Spirit. This is how God established it, and this is how the Church has done it from the early Church with the Apostles until today with the successors of the Apostles.

The Holy Spirit does not guide into error, and so you are not being guided by the Holy Spirit. Why? Because you have shown a lot of error in what you write.

The teachings you reject are God’s teachings. The understandings and meaning of the Scriptures you accept and hold higher than God’s teachings, are in fact erroneous.

 

[MDK]

After 3 months in this forum, I have noticed that the catholic position seems to be, that if you didn’t hear it from “us”, it aint’ true! Hebrews 13:8 says that"Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, as He is today, and will be tomorrow."…

Since you’ve exhibited inability to interpret things whether in Scripture or what we write…, the Catholic position is not what you have stated, but is more like “if it contradicts what the Authoritative Infallible Church teaches, then it’s not true.” Why? Because you’re contradicting the only authority on earth that God promised to protect from error. As an individual, you are not protected, and yet put your very flawed interpretations of Scriptures above the ones God protects. Others have some truth here and there, which we hope can be used to come to the fullness of revealed truth as taught only in the Catholic Church. We have Magisterium, Godly Tradition, and Scriptures authored by the Catholic Church. You guys take our Scriptures, interpret them poorly and out of context, and tell us we are wrong. The truth is you are wrong in doing so.

Christ is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow, as He is perfect. So far, yesterday and today you don’t know what Christ taught and established. But what about tomorrow… will you know then? There is hope for one who is humble, but first you must become humble.

 

[guanophore]

Interpretation, is something that nearly all human beings do; regardless if it’s a movie, text, or as in this thread, the Holy Bible! I can’t remember having been accused of twisting, and or sculpting scripture, to fit my own agenda, by more people than I have in the last 3 months

Have you ever been on a forum previously that preserves and promotes the faith of the Apostles? This could account for the change. For the record, though, I believe your faith his sincere, and that you would never purposefully do this to scripture.

It is something that happens in an honest attempt to make sense of what is written, when one is separated from the Apostolic Tradition.

If I were going to interpret all scripture to fit what I believe, then, I might as well write my own Bible!

This is what your spiritual ancestor, Martin Luther tried to do. You are only harvesting the fruits of his work

I for instance, do not see how anyone can read James 5:16, and believe it is the basis for confessing your sins to a priestThat should be an option, not a mandate!

I agree. However, none of Catholic Teaching finds it’s “basis” on individual verses from scripture. The faith was whole and entire before a word of the NT was ever written. What Catholics believe is not derived from Scripture, but from Christ. It is reflected in scripture, just as this verse reflects the practice of confession in the early church.

And I still have not found any Spiritual directive to call any “mortal” man Holy Father(no one will be completely holy until we stand before our King, clothed in righteousness).

I understand this too.

I don’t understand confirmation, completely! I think this is where a catholic accepts Christ as their personal Saviour, right?

Pretty much, yep. Although, we do this every day in Eucharist also, and in the Eastern Rites, infants are communed and confirmed at baptism.

And does it say in Acts 15, that,1)not to drink blood(this must be why I don’t eat my steak rare), and 2) that we Gentiles(non-catholics have been grafted in.

This are pastoral instructions to help mixed communities get along together.

Heck, even popeJohnPaul II told us non-catholics, that we could be saved:thumbsup:And I read in Psalms, about the Lord’s people celebrating, banging the cymbal, playing the lyre, etc, shouting to the Lord; and yet the preferred style of music in catholic churches, is somber and sullen.

I admit that some of the hymns do seem quite somber. However, you may be suffering from limited experience on this one.

I grew up, singing and listening to hymns like,“The Old Rugged Cross,” etc, but now also enjoy contemporary Christian music as well!

Me too!

I also believe that when Jesus talks about sending an Advocate, or Comforter, He is talking to me also(and other Christians, who believe that one can have a personal relationship with Him).

Well, of course! That Spirit, though, leads to unity.

 

[Peter_J]

After 3 months in this forum, I have noticed that the catholic position seems to be, that if you didn’t hear it from “us”, it aint’ true! Hebrews 13:8 says that"Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, as He is today, and will be tomorrow." He spoke to His followers,including those in the OT, and NT, and when we read His words today, in the 21st century, He is talking to us, many times in a small, still voice! I can’t 100% believe that Jesus"s commands(Matthew 28:19-20, among others, were directed soley to His apostles! They were to make disciples, and those disciples, were to make disciples, and so on, and so on! And it doesn’t, (or shouldn’t) stop there! We as Christians(42 years tomorrow),are charged with going forward with the Good News of the Gospel, making disciples of those who were once lost! And I also believe, that to say that God only speaks to and through those who are identified as being in the line of “apostolic succession”, is doing a disservice to Him Who of us can say that God is not capable of anointing anyone to teach, preach and lead the flock! But, we will continue in our own ways, and someday meet on that beautiful shore, united in Christ, no longer concerned with how each other is dressed, or whether Mary was a perpetual virgin, confessing our sins to a priest, etc. I believe it was Louie1983, who commented that"well, if you don’t want to live by Christ’s commands…", in regards to my offering that confession should be an option, rather than a mandate! I can’t find anywhere, that my Saviour tells me to confess my sins to a priest! James 5:16 is a bit vague on that issue! But I don’t fault or condemn anyone for doing it; I choose not too! Just one of the many reasons I can’t convert!

Thank you for that post, 1beleevr. I shall give your words some thought.

 

[guanophore]

Why do so many people busy themselves with the outside of the cup?

I am not sure, but I think you are probably in the best position to answer this. Yours are the only posts I have read, complaining about the garb of the pope.

What is it, in you, that finds it necessary to judge another’s servant?

   Jesus Himself, told me not to call any man on this earth Father;

You are taking it out of context. At the time Jesus was preaching, each of the famous Pharisees had his own school, and there were rivalries among them, as all the disciples claimed to belong to “Father Gamaliel” or Father so and so. Jesus was trying to get them to avoid factiousness.

    and no matter how you call him, the pope is not holy,

Speaking of condemnatory remarks, who are you to day this? At the very least, he is holy in the sense that he has been set aside for God’s work.

Rom 12:1-2
12:1 I appeal to you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship. 2 Do not be conformed to this world but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that you may prove what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.

He has consecrated his whole life to God, a vessel for God’s work.

Furthermore, his personal sanctity no doubt far outweighs both yours and mine together, if for no other reason that the practice of spiritual disciplines all his life.

and he is NOT my Father! The only Holy Father I recognize, is the Almighty, Living God!

God has given him the Petrine gift, which means it is his duty to confirm the brethren. He is a spiritual source of fatherhood to the whole church. Your refusal to accept the gift God has given him does not nullify the gift. Your inability to recognize the eye or the hand in the body does not amputate it, either. It creates a loss for you, but does not change what God has put in place.

And tone down the condemnation a bit

Perhaps you might consider setting an example of what this might be like?

 

[Peter_J]

Sorry, but if the teachings of the CC are different from the Word of God, I will not accept them.

Same here, except for the “Sorry” part.

 

[1beleevr]

prmerger:Believe me, in my 42 years as a Christian, I have heard and seen many things that defied logic, or at least were in conflict with the teachings of Christ! I heaerd from someone that the Garden of Eden was in Missouri, that you could be baptized for the dead, that if your spouse died, and you remarried, you would be reunited with your first spouse in Heaven! I have been rebuked for not observing the 4th Commandment(Sabbath) on Saturday, and told that Jesus was not fully God and fully man, but a highly exalted prophet! Thanks to the guidance of the Holy Spirit(and protection too!), and the peace and discernment that I get from my Saviour, I have been able to dodge all the half-truths, and untruths out there, and remain grounded in Christ!

 

[guanophore]

Oh dear, the dreaded “if you don’t believe what I tell you, then you have made Jesus out to be a liar” ploy. Some originality please.

The originality lies in Christ. He is the one who promised He would lead the Church into “all Truth”. What is the reason you don’t believe He did, or could? If He is not a liar, or a weakling, was there another reason He did not?

If I believed that the RCC was the one and same church Jesus founded; and

The Catholic Church is not “Roman”, Radical. Your formulation of it as such reveals your ignorance and prejudice.

If I believed that “lead into all Truth” means “can’t make a mistake regarding official doctrine” (note the words aren’t at all the same)

Then your occusation might have some merit.

Well, can you explain how one can be led into all truth while making mistakes? How can the HS provide “mistakes”? Do you not agree that the teaching of error causes people to pass through the gates of hell?

 

[JRKH]

Sorry, but if the teachings of the CC are different from the Word of God, I will not accept them.

I discuss the faith using the Word of God. Most catholics here discuss, using the interpretation of the CC. Can you not look and discuss using the Word of God only, without the CC indoctrination?

I know that you claim to be led by the Holy Spirit and that your understanding of Scripture (Interpretation) is correct.
I too claim to be led by the Holy Spirit and claim that my understanding of Scripture is correct.
This has nothing to do with “catholic indoctrination” since it was by the prompting of the Holy Spirit that I came home to the Church.
The Spirit led me to understand that the Catholic Church is the One True and Protected Church that Christ founded.
The Spirit did this through Scripture and through Prayer.

So in response to your assertion above, The teachings of the Church cannot be different than the Word of God since The Church has the Protection of God.

So now -
With our positions clearly stated, I will ask you again, as I have in the past, to explain how we discern who is right and who is wrong?
Scripture does not give the answer because we both claim scripture basis.
Claiming the Holy Spirit does not give the answer but only points to the problem for two opposing answers cannot both be “Of the Spirit”.
Who can we Take it to?
I know - Let’s obey Christ, who prayed for our unity -
Let us obey Christ, our King and Savior -
Let us Obey Christ and "Tell it To The Church.

Until you can obey this Command of Christ - what are we to make of your assertions that we are wrong?
Nothing more than just one more “interpretation”.

Is it not your responsibility to be defenders of the faith, guarding against false teachings? Yet, to do this, one must be free of indoctrination, but will stand on truth alone whether it comes by way of any denoms or nondenoms.

(Snip)

Yes it is our responsibility to be defenders of faith and that is exactly what we are doing againts those persons. whether inside or outside the Catholic Church who teach error.

Peace
James

 

[PRmerger]

Sorry, but if the teachings of the CC are different from the Word of God, I will not accept them.

You can rest assured that there are no teachings of the CC that are different from the Word of God.

 

[MDK]

prmerger:Believe me, in my 42 years as a Christian, I have heard and seen many things that defied logic, or at least were in conflict with the teachings of Christ! I heaerd from someone that the Garden of Eden was in Missouri, that you could be baptized for the dead, that if your spouse died, and you remarried, you would be reunited with your first spouse in Heaven! I have been rebuked for not observing the 4th Commandment(Sabbath) on Saturday, and told that Jesus was not fully God and fully man, but a highly exalted prophet! Thanks to the guidance of the Holy Spirit(and protection too!), and the peace and discernment that I get from my Saviour, I have been able to dodge all the half-truths, and untruths out there, and remain grounded in Christ!

It’s very nice that you’ve been able to dodge some obviously wrong teachings. However, to say that you’ve been completely successful at every turn would be an overstatement. You have been able to dodge some, but unfortunately have adopted other falsehoods. To say that some success you’ve had equals or somehow guarantees similar success at every turn is simply not living in reality. The Holy Spirit has protected the teachings found in the Catholic Church. Each and every time you disagree with these official teachings, you are yourself promoting half-truths or untruths. If you want to really have the teachings without error all the time, you need to align yourself with the only authority on Earth whom God works through to present the fullness of His revealed truth… that being the Catholic Church.

 

[Always_For_Him]

Sorry, but if the teachings of the CC are different from the Word of God, I will not accept them.

This should read “Sorry, but if the teachings of the CC are different from the Word of God as I believe it to be, I will not accept them.”

There is no teaching of the CC that is different that the Word of God, since the Word of God IS Catholic Teaching as given to us by Christ. The Catholic Church is not based on the Bible. It predates the Bible, and was out proclaiming and teaching Jesus’ Word for centuries before ever compiling the canon of the Bible or the Bible itself.

The “different” teaching that you are referring to is your own that is different from what the Church has always taught. Your truth is truth to you, but it is fairly new, man-made, error and considered a different gospel, and will never negate the Truth as Christ gave us.

 

[MDK]

You can rest assured that there are no teachings of the CC that are different from the Word of God.

Yes, how can they be? God built His Church, through whom He makes known and protects the teachings of His revealed truths. It’s not because of man that the Church always teaches without error, but sometimes in spite of man.

 

[PRmerger]

It doesn’t bother me b/c I see it existing (for the most part) outside of the core rule of faith.

Does Scripture tell us what the core rule of faith is? It does not!

If someone claims that “__" is an essential aspect of the faith but "” is not and we’re free to disagree on that “non-core issue”, then he is being un-scriptural. He is using his man-made, fallible, non-authoritarian interpretation of what he believes is the core rule of faith.

I had one callow chap actually proclaim that the core rule of faith was expressed in John 3:16. Naturally, he had to backpedal as it became evident that the logical end of this is that it deems the remainder of Scripture “non-essential.” :bigyikes:

 

[Radical]

Does Scripture tell us what the core rule of faith is? It does not!

The gospel of John ends by saying that what he wrote was for the purpose of enabling one to believe and obtain eternal life…so presumably it contains all the essentials for eternal life. 1 Cor 15 contains what has been identified as the earliest creed and Paul says that those things included in it are of first importance…

If someone claims that “__" is an essential aspect of the faith but "” is not and we’re free to disagree on that “non-core issue”, then he is being un-scriptural. He is using his man-made, fallible, non-authoritarian interpretation of what he believes is the core rule of faith.

Actually you are free to disagree on all of it, the core issues, the non-core issues and where the line between the two is drawn. That said, at this point in history, what Tertullian and Irenaeus described as the rule of faith is shared nicely by RCs, EOs and most Protestants. We should celebrate that unity and act on it instead of trying to claim it as the possession of but one of us.

I had one callow chap actually proclaim that the core rule of faith was expressed in John 3:16. Naturally, he had to backpedal as it became evident that the logical end of this is that it deems the remainder of Scripture “non-essential.” :bigyikes:

I most certainly wouldn’t say that it is contained in John 3:16…but the core is fairly short and simple and that is a good thing…Otherwise, what do we do with all the oppressed Christians today that don’t have access to a complete NT? What do we do with the centuries full of RCs who received only a bit of the NT (and the bit they did receive was often in latin, a language that they couldn’t understand)?

 

[PRmerger]

I most certainly wouldn’t say that it is contained in John 3:16…but the core is fairly short and simple and that is a good thing…

What is the core, Radical?

Otherwise, what do we do with all the oppressed Christians today that don’t have access to a complete NT?

Whom do you mean? What part of the NT do these people have?

What do we do with the centuries full of RCs who received only a bit of the NT (and the bit they did receive was often in latin, a language that they couldn’t understand)?

You mean during the persecution by the Romans the Christians didn’t speak Latin? What language did they speak in the Roman Empire?

 

[heiscominginthe]

Well, this once again confirms that you really don’t understand the meaning of Scriptures. In other words, you don’t understand without error what God has revealed. It’s not that you’ve got it 100% wrong, but you’ve got a lot of error, so that you are so far off track that you call the lightness as dark, and the darkness as some shades of gray.

You’re right that God didn’t intend a bunch of different denominations. That’s why He didn’t make one. The Catholic Church built by God is not a denomination, but is the one true Church. There is not a need for any others, as God never made any others. The one true Church has all seven of Jesus’ Sacraments, including the first which is Baptism by water and the Spirit. This is how God established it, and this is how the Church has done it from the early Church with the Apostles until today with the successors of the Apostles.

The Holy Spirit does not guide into error, and so you are not being guided by the Holy Spirit. Why? Because you have shown a lot of error in what you write.

The teachings you reject are God’s teachings. The understandings and meaning of the Scriptures you accept and hold higher than God’s teachings, are in fact erroneous.

Instead of answering me, you choose to more or less call me a liar.

You are right though, the Holy Spirit does not guide us into err. The problem lies within those who lead the spirit. If only you could see that.

 

[heiscominginthe]

Same here, except for the “Sorry” part.

Image that.

He who says he loves God, but hates his brother is a liar. I can honestly say I love you, can you do the same?

 

[heiscominginthe]

JRKH;I know that you claim to be led by the Holy Spirit and that your understanding of Scripture (Interpretation) is correct.
I too claim to be led by the Holy Spirit and claim that my understanding of Scripture is correct.
This has nothing to do with “catholic indoctrination” since it was by the prompting of the Holy Spirit that I came home to the Church.
The Spirit led me to understand that the Catholic Church is the One True and Protected Church that Christ founded.
The Spirit did this through Scripture and through Prayer.

So in response to your assertion above, The teachings of the Church cannot be different than the Word of God since The Church has the Protection of God.

You are right when you say the church has the protection of the Holy Spirit, but in your opinion it is only the CC.

Was it God’s will to kill or torture in the name of Christ? Did not Jesus say to turn the other cheek, to love our enemies. I usually don’t like going in this direction, but feel I must at this time. Your claim over and over again that the CC is the one true church can be bebunked just by using history. Or was there just some bad popes?

So I will ask you this, should the Church have blood on it’s hands?

So now -
With our positions clearly stated, I will ask you again, as I have in the past, to explain how we discern who is right and who is wrong?
Scripture does not give the answer because we both claim scripture basis.
Claiming the Holy Spirit does not give the answer but only points to the problem for two opposing answers cannot both be “Of the Spirit”.
Who can we Take it to?
I know - Let’s obey Christ, who prayed for our unity -
Let us obey Christ, our King and Savior -
Let us Obey Christ and "Tell it To The Church.

Until you can obey this Command of Christ - what are we to make of your assertions that we are wrong?
Nothing more than just one more “interpretation”.

So when will your pope be showing up at my church?

Yes it is our responsibility to be defenders of faith and that is exactly what we are doing againts those persons. whether inside or outside the Catholic Church who teach error.

Peace
James

What do they call a person who helps another commit a crime? Even if he is only the getaway driver, he is charged just the same. So if what a man defends is wrong, and the man instead of admitting it, turns his head, is he not guilty as well?

I suggest you go back and read the events that occurred in World War II and what position your church took.

Do the Jews deserve to die since they are the ones who killed Jesus? Does God still view the Jewish people as his chosen people?