Protestants: How Do You Know That Your Interpretation of the Bible is the Right one? Part II
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C
ckempston
Guest
Hardly. Nice bit of question begging and misrepresentation.So you would object, I gather, to the “suggestion” that we keep holy the Lord’s Day?
or perhaps you accept only what you feel the Lord has said directly…
and opine differently when He directly gives the authority to shepherd His flock to an Catholic (the Apostles)
understood… another denomination forms…
.
M
MDK
Guest
Yes,… a genius in your own mind. The truth is quite different that your words. Like all things, it is meant in certain context, which you are quite happy to take it out of context in which it is true. Therefore, you create a falsehood, which you then deride. Is this really service of the truth, or personal ego? Does God’s eighth commandment have any light guiding you before making such false accusations?
For those who seek to understand, rather than to misunderstand and misrepresent and denigrate, does it really matter what the numbers are? That you don’t like the truth of the Catholic Church is evident, but is there really a need to find dirt where there is none? These rites are, nevertheless, Catholic. If they were in full communion, why would there be a different Rite?
The conscience must be an informed and trained conscience at the service of truth. Are you advocating that inner city gang members simply follow their undeveloped consciences?
The truth of Christ is not up for individual interpretations that contradict His revealed truth. As much as you promote you own fabrications about Christ, you are at odds with the Truth, which is not something, but Someone. When you have a developed conscience, you will follow what Christ has asked of us. This includes being humble, and so the arrogant and proud will have a great deal of trouble complying. Please adopt some measure of humility, as it will start you on a great journey of discovery of truth. I’ll pray for you, as I do for myself to learn more about the Truth, who is Jesus the Christ.
M
MDK
Guest
It is good guidance, and so this is why I follow those Christ sent, instead of engaging in Protestantism. The creator of the Catholic Church is the Second Person of the Holy Trinity, Jesus the Christ. The Holy Spirit protects the Catholic Church from teaching error in faith and morals.
The Holy Scriptures were indeed inspired by the Holy Spirit, written by Catholics in the context of Catholicism for Catholics. They only make sense in the context of Catholicism. The Catholic Church as the pillar and bulwark of the truth teaches and protects the truths about Scriptures. All those who follow Christ were meant to be in the Catholic Church, which stems from the will of God.
On the other hand, unfortunately, the father of Protestantism is pride and arrogance. Since you agree that you should follow God instead of man, why do you engage in that which you condemn?
S
SD_Catholic
Guest
Under your authority of interpretation no less?
If the Church implements a discipline that they feel is beneficial to the faithful, and in no way contradicts God’s Revealed Truth, then what is your problem with it?.. If being married was a requirement why wasn’t Jesus ordering his Apostles to marry as they spread his message?
It seems we have another authority problem, since the discipline in no way affects you. That or you just enjoy stirring up arguments… oh yeah you did say you sometimes like to play d’s-advocate.
SD
C
ckempston
Guest
Oh, the irony. Appealing to the commandments that the Catholics conveniently changed by removing one and making one into two.
There is dirt. When a Catholic claims that Priests can marry, this is misleading as I have pointed out.
Exactly. How do we train our consciences?
I could make the same accusation against you. This is empty rhetoric.
I indeed have a conscience, and I would not suggest that you do not, regardless of any disagreement we might have over doctrine. Contrary to what you might think, all my time is not spent thinking of ways I can “denigrate” Catholic teaching.
M
MDK
Guest
SD,
Some do test, just to see that we’re up to it. It’s hard to believe someone being honestly as obstinate and averse to truth as the posts have been presented.
M
MDK
Guest
Wrong… Catholic Church has the correct meaning of the Commandments. Anti-Catholics have chosen to separate statements that go together, in order to simply promote anti-Catholicism, having no relation to the truth.
There is none, except to those who have “dirt colored glasses.” It is not misleading. It is correct in context in which it applies. It also indicates that this is not doctrine which will not be changed, but a custom which can change. Someday, Roman Rite priests may have the custom of being married. Unlike the teaching of women priests, of which there will not happen.
How about listening to those Christ sent? That’s a good start. If you listen to those Christ sent, you are listening to Christ. Those Christ sent are Catholic Pope, and Bishops in union with the Pope.
… and you would once again be wrong if you did this. Those who call truth empty rhetoric are living not according to the Holy Spirit, but some other.
I didn’t suggest you didn’t have a conscience, but will say now that yours needs to become formed according to truth, as you are largely distant from lovely truths. I think denigration comes from you simply because you are so far from the truth, that you speak of the truth as though it were evil. This is no recipe for walking in friendship with Christ, who is the Truth.
C
ckempston
Guest
Give me the correct interpretation…
It does contradict. Anybody is free to marry, and anybody is free to observe or abstain from any holy day they so choose, provided that in doing so they do not violate other commandments (such as the command to not give up meeting together - clearly this passage is not about regular Christian gatherings, but specific “Holy Days”).
I have a problem with teachings that run contrary to plain passages that require no interpretation (unless a Catholic wants to cop-out with the “personal interpretation” accusation). I’m not playing devil’s advocate. Telling some people they cannot serve in some capacity if they do not become celibate is contrary to New Testament teaching.
It’s quite simple. Were Paul and the other Apostles and the Lord’s brothers permitted to have a wife? If so, how could it possibly be justifiable to teach something contrary to this? Even if we allow that Paul was merely instructing Timothy and Titus that Bishops, if they just happen to be married, should have one wife and believing children, this still means that Bishops are, at the very least ALLOWED to have a wife and children.
M
MDK
Guest
When one is motivated by such hatred for God’s one true Church, do our words really answer your need? I pray that the Holy Spirit will guide you to a heart for the truth. Then, you will have the ability to understand and accept what we tell you. Until then, sadly your hatred and prejudice will continue to rule over your ability to accept truth.
J
JRKH
Guest
Earlier today I was considering the issue of “Church Authority” and the various Schisms over the centuries. Now -correct me if I am wrong, but it seems that up until the 16th century there was [uNever a schism that involved a rejection of Church Authority or the doctrine of Bible Over Church.
Between:
33 AD and 400 AD, the Church United and Catholic taught from the Canon of OT books as well as various written texts of “New” writings along with Sacred Oral Tradition thorugh the magisterial authority of the Church and settled issues in Councils of Bishops.
400 AD and 1000 AD, the Church United and Catholic taught from the 72 Book canon of the Bible along with the Sacred Church Tradition, as held by the magisterial authority of the Church and settled issues in Councils of Bishops.
1059 AD or so comes the big split between East and West.
The issue is Authority - What Authority? The Bishop in Rome’s Authority.
What about Scripture? It remains under the authority of “The Church” Catholic, whether in the Roman Rite or the Eatern Rite.
I know of no great splintering of groups after this splitting East/West but rather the two camps went on as Authoritative and Apostolic Churches.
So for another 500 years or so we have the East west Split but little or no additional Splitting.
Now we come to the “Reformation” and, not just Papal Authority, but Church authority is attacked and the Protestants remove the Church’s Scripture from the Church and declare this is all they need.
In the 500 years since, the Catholic and Orthodox churches have plodded steadily onward in Apostolic Authority and Security.
The Protestants in the meantime have split literally thousands of times, and even churches in the same doctrinal community have split over doctrinal issues. In short it has been a mess.
I will not say that Martin Luther and Co, did not have noble ideals in mind. I believe they honestly thought that the Holy Spirit would provide the “Guidance” they needed. They were quickly and completely disillusioned. Even Martin Luther himself was discusted with the state of the “reform” late in his life. Because everyone, no matter what their education level or spiritual development felt that they could interpret the Bible for themsleves. He had opened a Pandora’s box and the result is Doctrinal Chaos.
For 1500 years from the Apostles down, even through the East West Split, the Church was held as the Authority in Spiritual Matters and maintained a high degree of unity. 500 years after the “Reformation” the Catholic and Orthodox still enjoy this high degree of doctrinal unity, while the Protestants cannot agree among themselves.
This begs the question, - Where is the Holy Spirit Truly at work?
Is it in the C & O Churches with apostolic succession and Earthly Authority, or in the plethora of Protestant denominations who cannot agree on doctrinal issues?
Say what you will about this or that Bible passage, and this or that Church Practice. The History Christianity through the ages speaks the loudest of all.
Peace
James
Between:
33 AD and 400 AD, the Church United and Catholic taught from the Canon of OT books as well as various written texts of “New” writings along with Sacred Oral Tradition thorugh the magisterial authority of the Church and settled issues in Councils of Bishops.
400 AD and 1000 AD, the Church United and Catholic taught from the 72 Book canon of the Bible along with the Sacred Church Tradition, as held by the magisterial authority of the Church and settled issues in Councils of Bishops.
1059 AD or so comes the big split between East and West.
The issue is Authority - What Authority? The Bishop in Rome’s Authority.
What about Scripture? It remains under the authority of “The Church” Catholic, whether in the Roman Rite or the Eatern Rite.
I know of no great splintering of groups after this splitting East/West but rather the two camps went on as Authoritative and Apostolic Churches.
So for another 500 years or so we have the East west Split but little or no additional Splitting.
Now we come to the “Reformation” and, not just Papal Authority, but Church authority is attacked and the Protestants remove the Church’s Scripture from the Church and declare this is all they need.
In the 500 years since, the Catholic and Orthodox churches have plodded steadily onward in Apostolic Authority and Security.
The Protestants in the meantime have split literally thousands of times, and even churches in the same doctrinal community have split over doctrinal issues. In short it has been a mess.
I will not say that Martin Luther and Co, did not have noble ideals in mind. I believe they honestly thought that the Holy Spirit would provide the “Guidance” they needed. They were quickly and completely disillusioned. Even Martin Luther himself was discusted with the state of the “reform” late in his life. Because everyone, no matter what their education level or spiritual development felt that they could interpret the Bible for themsleves. He had opened a Pandora’s box and the result is Doctrinal Chaos.
For 1500 years from the Apostles down, even through the East West Split, the Church was held as the Authority in Spiritual Matters and maintained a high degree of unity. 500 years after the “Reformation” the Catholic and Orthodox still enjoy this high degree of doctrinal unity, while the Protestants cannot agree among themselves.
This begs the question, - Where is the Holy Spirit Truly at work?
Is it in the C & O Churches with apostolic succession and Earthly Authority, or in the plethora of Protestant denominations who cannot agree on doctrinal issues?
Say what you will about this or that Bible passage, and this or that Church Practice. The History Christianity through the ages speaks the loudest of all.
Peace
James
S
SD_Catholic
Guest
If I set a curfew for my kids in my house will you please come tell me if it’s right or wrong… certainly you will know what’s best for my children.
I will admit, many things the CC teaches are contrary to your understanding of the NT.
SD
M
MDK
Guest
Some are easier to understand, but not all. You are always interpreting, and when you choose one means such as interpreting literalistically, it will definitely lead you astray, as it has. The Scripture which you quote was meant to be understood in the context in which it was written. Those living then understood it, using different customs, phrases and norms than we do. These meanings have been passed down generationally. God’s truths have been protected by the Holy Spirit in the Catholic Church. What makes you think that you picking up and reading something written almost 2000 years ago, God’s Holy Word at that, that you understand exactly what it means as though you were reading a contemporary newspaper? Also, why would you understand it better than the Church that has been around almost 2000 years teaching these truths that Christ left for us in the deposit of faith? It doesn’t follow, and your posts provide good evidence of that. Please consider the love of Christ, and what He established for all of us. God loves you, and He established His One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church to help you find Him and be close to Him.
H
heiscominginthe
Guest
Well spoken, You are correct in saying that Paul said it is better to be celibate, but not manditory.
M
MrS
Guest
Thank you for your kind remark
M
MDK
Guest
You’re always telling the author of Sacred Scriptures they don’t know what they meant, so why not tell me that as well on the piece I authored…
It was indeed an example in a modern context to illustrate a point, not intended as a comparison based on resemblance implying all areas. When writing, I was keenly aware of the differences, and thought there was a possibility you would not understand… I was right. It was used as an illustration in modern context and terms. I knew you would object, because that’s what you do, rather than seek truth the way it was meant.
How can you be wrong almost all the time. If you could just turn that around, it would be wonderful. I wasn’t referring to the Scriptures as a line of reasoning. I was referring to what you were describing that they meant, and what you were trying to promote as a result… that was your line of reasoning. It was and is wrong. I don’t see the need to try and dress that up… your line of reasoning just plain falls flat on its face. It doesn’t work, because it lacks truth. For years, the dark has been denigrating the light, just as you denigrate God’s Church. That we disagree is not the point. It’s obvious what the correct teachings have been, from where honesty of discussion has been promoted. I’ll pray for you, that you may come to know the truth, and the truth will set you free.
You can’t hide the falsehoods you have promoted, and erroneous line of reasoning by simply quoting Scriptures. Anyone can quote Scriptures. Satan quotes Scriptures. Do you know what they mean, and present these correct and true teachings in discussions? Thus far, you don’t, but I hope you will come around. It will take some adjustments on your part, and dropping the pride in favor of humility. It’s worth it. The truth is very lovely and wonderful to behold. It is not at odds with Christ’s one Church, but the two go hand in hand.
C
ckempston
Guest
You have a pretty rosy view of the history of Christianity (especially the early part) that does not at all reflect reality.
Yeah, so the claim goes anyway. The problem is that if a “tradition” gets handed down and continually grows with the telling, that is referred to as a fairy tale.
Take off your rose colored glasses. Look at the iconoclasts, for example, and the antipopes. Clearly, your version of history is in need of some more facts. You have also conveniently left out the fact that Roman Catholic authority was enforced by secular authorities. Not too hard to keep “unity” when you just call in this or that army and send it to whatever country is getting uppity.
Well, if you have 21 Flavors of Liturgy (C), then it’s pretty easy to maintain so-called unity, but in actuality, what this does is makes the word “unity” absolutely meaningless.
C
ckempston
Guest
You’re almost right: many things the CC teaches are contrary to the NT.
You’d be wrong about your kids; I’d point you to the Scriptures, but you can’t be blamed for your assumption that I’d try to tell you what to do, because your church doesn’t teach you to rely on the written Word of God; it teaches you that somebody else has to direct every affair of your religious and personal life.
Of course, the answer to your kids statement is that the Bible gives us a lot of guidelines for raising our kids. If you’ve never seen these before, I consider it my Christian duty to point them out:
Deuteronomy 11:19 Teach them to your children, talking about them when you sit at home and when you walk along the road, when you lie down and when you get up.
Matthew 19:14 Jesus said, “Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.”
2 Corinthians 12:14 Now I am ready to visit you for the third time, and I will not be a burden to you, because what I want is not your possessions but you. After all, children should not have to save up for their parents, but parents for their children.
Ephesians 6:1,4 Children, obey your parents in the Lord, for this is right…Fathers, do not exasperate your children; instead, bring them up in the training and instruction of the Lord.
It’s amazing how many answers are sitting there right in front of our faces. I could go on for pages, but I think that’s sufficient to demonstrate that the Word of God contains the answers, not somebody sitting in a chair in Rome.
S
SteveGC
Guest
ckempston, just curious…
1a) Was not your present understanding of Scripture developed under human teaching?
1b) If so, going back to the first question, how is it you decided to trust the human teaching you’ve been exposed to, without knowing for sure that what they were teaching was, in fact, biblical truth?
If your answer is “I don’t…I just read Scripture myself for it”, then…
1c) would you say the answer to question 1a is “no”?
These may seem like loaded questions, but I truly am simply curious about how a Bible-only Christian reconciles these things to him/herself.
Thanks and God Bless
- who do you trust to teach you authentic Christianity?
1a) Was not your present understanding of Scripture developed under human teaching?
1b) If so, going back to the first question, how is it you decided to trust the human teaching you’ve been exposed to, without knowing for sure that what they were teaching was, in fact, biblical truth?
If your answer is “I don’t…I just read Scripture myself for it”, then…
1c) would you say the answer to question 1a is “no”?
These may seem like loaded questions, but I truly am simply curious about how a Bible-only Christian reconciles these things to him/herself.
Thanks and God Bless
S
SD_Catholic
Guest
No… I was right the first time… The CC teaches many things contrary to your understanding of the NT.
Thank you sooo much for the Scripture on raising kids… all the family challenges are now behind me… being a Catholic I’ve never had a chance to read them on my own, because the CC suppresses all my thoughts… plus they try to tell me to follow all these stupid moral rules that I know aren’t in my best interest because I know I don’t see ABC talked about anywhere in Scripture… yeah you bet:banghead:
Just curious… have you ever been invovled with the military?
SD
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