Protestants: How Do You Know That Your Interpretation of the Bible is the Right one? Part II

[Always_For_Him]

Good morning everyone!

I understand your first paragraph completely, except, how do you know what you speak isn’t arrogance or wrong? And I’m honestly so lost. What does the Tiber have to do with anything? reading the bible, looking it up

Someone who has crossed the Tiber is going to have to answer this.
jahsoul;5120656:

Now, I don’t think anyone who is non Catholic looks at themselves as the Pope. Christ commissioned us all (those who believe) as disciples and we are to make more. Throughout history, the Pope did many things that wasn’t Christlike because he was just man. The only thing that was called infallible in the Bible was the works of Jesus. Like I said earlier, I don’t put one over the other but to call someone arrogant for standing firm the same way you are (well, minus scripture) is a contradicting statement. .

Calling someone "their own pope’ to me anyway, is a way to say that that person is his/her own authority on Christianity, what it means, how we live it, etc… We were NEVER to interpret Scripture for ourselves. The personal interpretation and changes made to Scripture over the last 500 years is the destruction of those who feel they have authority to do so. We don’t!! Throughout history, God has always placed an individual in the place of authority. They were to abide by what that authority taught them. It is no different now. As we have these discussions, things can get a little heated. Sometimes people do come off arrogant.

The Bible is a Catholic book, written by Catholics for Catholics in the context of Catholic teaching. They were given Christ’s complete Deposit of Faith and the command, authority and protection BY Christ to go forth and teach all nations and baptize them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. The Catholic Church passed Christ’s teachings on by Oral and Sacred Tradition for centuries before the Bible was ever canonized. They painstakingly, through much study, prayer, meeting and comparision to Sacred Tradtion determined the canon of Scripture. They defeated many heresies to keep Christ’s Deposit of Faith pure. Not everything is written in Scripture either. Tradition is Catholic teaching, and Catholic teaching is Scripture, is the Bible. So, you have to understand that when Luther and those since him took our Holy Bible, made changes to it, developed a lot of error, then members of those churches 500 years later use their errant interpretation of our Bible to refute Catholic teaching, it is hard to be patient and understanding.

And the gifts aren’t given by the church. Romans 12/1Cor. 12 & 14 clearly states that these gifts are given from God through the spirit. While each gift differs, it is the same spirit. And again, I ask, how are we going against what Christ has sent. Christ sent his disciples to spread the Word and whoever believes can do the same thing. Jesus didn’t pray for the believer for nothing (John 17). And what I can TRUTH is the Word of God. Not a church, not traditions but the Word of God which was made flesh.

Are you talking about the gift of authority? We were all given special gifts from God. We all have the gift of the Holy Spirit given to us by God. The difference is that we all weren’t given the gift of authority to teach by God. That authority was given to the Apostles in the upper room. WE are to hold to the teachings and traditions as the Apostles handed down not change them to fit our lifestyle. We do not have any authority from Christ. The Holy Spirit is to guide us to Truth and help us, but it is up to us to be humble and open to the Truth as it is, not as we have come to believe it from churches that have been separated from Christ’s Church for almost 500 years teach it.

I know that is hard for any non-Catholic to hear. I had to admit the error that I had come to believe. It is a slap in the face to admit that part of my faith was error and I bought into it. I didn’t have to search long before I started realizing how easy it is for man to believe other man today, and to see just how much has changed to accommodate modern man to he can justify his actions and behavior. Good, beautiful, well-intentioned people not knowing they are teaching error, in the end, still teach error.

I pray that you open your heart and mind and really hear the Truth as everyone is trying to share on this thread. If your mind is closed to the Truth you already know and not open to the possibility that there is more, you won’t learn. There is always more Truth out there than we could possibly learn in a lifetime. Submitting to the authority of Christ’s Church to live the WAY HE commanded us to live is really beautiful and FULL OF GRACES. It is a narrow path, but it is THE way Christ paved for us. Nothing else will do.

 

[East_Anglican]

Thank you for the honesty. Yet, there is a way in which you can know without error. Do you think God would leave us without help or guidance? No. However, as long as you’re following Anglicanism, your answer will always be that you don’t know, as long as you remain honest as you so commendably have done. It’s only in following those whom Christ left to continue His mission, who have received authority handed down in an organic link for almost 2,000 years. Otherwise, we are like a kingdom with a King who is away, and no Prime Minister to act on behalf of the King. I can’t imaging God doing that to us, and true to Himself, He did not. We have a Prime Minister while the King is away on His Throne in Heaven. The King sends protection of the Prime Minister to truly act in His behalf, so that His Kingdom truly knows His Will and Truth about Him.

Jesus promised that The Holy Spirit shall guide us into all truth. I believe what Jesus said.

 

[JRKH]

Good morning everyone!

(Snip)

Now, I don’t think anyone who is non Catholic looks at themselves as the Pope.

If you don’t think that non-catholics think of themselves as "popes’ then you do you describe the difference in the view of non-catholics.
(Caveat here - I know I’m generalizing here but trying to be simple in my answer to jahsoul)
Non-catholics believe that the Pope, by himself, is some sort of ruler who tells us how to interpret the Bible.
Non-catholics believe that this is wrong and that THEY themselves are the ones who can tell us how to interpret the Bible.
Now - Noncathoics will be quick to admit that interpretation must be done in by the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Of course they are also quick to deny, either implicitly or explicitly that the Pope in Rome, with thousands of years of teaching history and supported by the Magisterium, is obviously NOT guided by the Holy Spirit.

Christ commissioned us all (those who believe) as disciples and we are to make more.

Your statement is not false, but neither is it completely true either.
Christ commissioned the Apostles and Peter in particular to build, feed, and lead His Church. He Promised His own Protection and the Guidance of the Holy Spirit. He gave them Authority for the purpose of building sais Church.
Now since He knew that He was not returning in their lifetimes doesn’t it make sense that He would leave a way by which this authority would be passed on??

Throughout history, the Pope did many things that wasn’t Christlike because he was just man.

Don’t confuse the man with the office.
We have had many poor to even criminal presidents in the US but that doesn’t make the Office criminal or invalidate it as the head of the government.
We have indeed had both Great Spiritual Leaders and Poor Spiritual Leaders. Which makes it all the mnore remarkable that after nearly 2000 years the Truth of the Gospel is still intact in The Church. Even Poor and sinful men have not been able to pollute God’s Holy Teachings.

The only thing that was called infallible in the Bible was the works of Jesus. Like I said earlier, I don’t put one over the other but to call someone arrogant for standing firm the same way you are (well, minus scripture) is a contradicting statement.

I agree that we should be careful about throwing words such as arrogant around.
This is true of both sides ofthe argument.

And the gifts aren’t given by the church. Romans 12/1Cor. 12 & 14 clearly states that these gifts are given from God through the spirit.

And Scripture also clearly states that it is The Church which is the Pillar and Foundation of Truth. The same Church that Jesus tells us to refer disputes to in Mt 18:15-18

While each gift differs, it is the same spirit. And again, I ask, how are we going against what Christ has sent. Christ sent his disciples to spread the Word and whoever believes can do the same thing. Jesus didn’t pray for the believer for nothing (John 17). And what I can TRUTH is the Word of God. Not a church, not traditions but the Word of God which was made flesh.

Yes - Each gift is different. I cannot confect the Eucharist or forgive sins. WHY because this requires the gifts given to the validly ordained priesthood. So you see that the Gifts are indeed different.

Yes Truth IS the Word of God - and that Word is Jesus.
So - Now that we have that straight lets look at what The Word Jesus tells us in the written scriptures.
He founds a Church - He does not write a book
He Gives that Church authority to "Bind and Loose " - “Whatever”
He inspires the very first Apostle to be called from outside His original circle to write that The Church is the Pillar and Foundation of Truth.

So - The Truth is that The Word of God, who is Jesus Gave us The Church as our guide, and Through Her gave us the collection of holy works called The Bible.

Praise God’s Holy Word for His Mercy and Blessing.

Peace
James

 

[MDK]

Jesus promised that The Holy Spirit shall guide us into all truth. I believe what Jesus said.

Well, let’s recap… you said before of yourself that “my interpretation of certain verses is probably completely wrong.” This honesty is a good start on the way to greater truth. Could it be that you don’t understand what Scriptures really mean in regard to how Christ sends His Holy Spirit?

Here, Christ was sending His Holy Spirit to His Apostles to continue His mission. Christ never once said that He would send His Holy Spirit to all the lay faithful so that they didn’t need a ministerial priesthood, or the Apostles (later Bishops) or the head Apostle Peter.

We receive the Holy Spirit by being obedient to Christ. By interpreting as you want, and denying those who Christ sent, you are thereby denying Christ and being disobedient.

From a practical perspective, how is it going with everyone beleiving the Holy Spirit leads them to individual truths. Do you really believe that if that were the case, there would be doctrinal differences? Do you believe the Father and Son differ on things like Infant Baptism, Confession, the Holy Eucharist? Yet, to believe you, one would have to believe that the Holy Spirit teaches each in opposition to the other, or else you’re the only one who has received the Holy Spirit. Either way, you’ve got a big problem here… either in logic and understanding, or being a megalomaniac… I vote for the first.

Currently, you only believe what you have interpreted Jesus to say. It’s not what Jesus actually meant, though. You can’t take it out of context, and come up with whatever you want.

 

[1beleevr]

MDK: For someone, who rebukes non-catholics, who strongly believe that the Almighty, living God is able to empowerANY believer, to evangelize, witness, and make disciples(Matthew 28:19-20), you yourself present an air of superiority, by telling us that we are wrong to believe such things1 You in effect, are keeping people from enjoying a closse, oersonal relationship with God, through Christ. I am not my own pope,priest, cardinal,etc., but I am a believer, and a witness for my KIng! Jesus did not specifically say,“You apostles are the only ones who can disciple people.” As I stated earlier, He speaks to all of us; catholics just decide to insulate their people, and reliant on men, who purportedly were ordained by laying on of hands, down through the ages! And I am not saying that catholics are wrong, just different,just as Mormons are different from Jews, and so on, and so on! Your church, however, considers anyone who doesn’t agree with them to be not only wrong, but ignorant, deluded and separated! Why can’t you just accept the gact, that we don’t believe that your pope is infallible, Mary was not a perpetual virgin, and that we don’t believe in purgatory? Sheesh!

 

[MDK]

This opened my eyes this morning!!!

It did in a good way. I am really glad to see this today. I battle a lot of Protestant influence on me. I have to re-train my thinking, my habits, and remind myself that is isn’t about me, it isn’t about what I want, or the way I want it - It is about how Christ established the Truth and what He wants us to do. It is not that I want to reject those who Christ sent, but it is that I want something else more sometimes. I don’t think that non-Catholics even see that they have been taught error from fallible men. It is just all they know. It is really amazing when God takes those blinders off and you see that there is so much more than what humans have minimized it to.

This is truly the Holy Spirit’s work, as you seek to be obedient to Christ. I don’t believe it was my words, as many people will read this and never see anything new or significant.

May God continue to bless you as you continue to seek Him and do His Will, and may He richly pour the gift of the Holy Spirit into your life.

 

[jahsoul]

MDK,

Is the Tiber in the Bible? No it isn’t so I don’t know anything about it. But why couldn’t they swin a river in Jerusalem, where the church was started?

Also, I don’t know about any teaching from Martin Luther and I don’t believe I’m the final authority of anything. God is.

Again, Catholics didn’t write the Bible. The OT was written by Jews and the NT was written by Jewish Christians who never once called themselves Catholic in the scriptures. And it was written for Christians. Now if you can point me to scripture that shows otherwise then I would concede that point, but you still haven’t given me any scriptural background to any words that you say. I don’t need a prime minister on this earth because the Bible tells us (as clear as day again) that we have a High Priest in Heaven that intercedes for us. I pray to God through Jesus like the Word says we should do.

And am I taking the Word out of context by quoting them? I could say that you are doing the same thing, but again, you haven’t given any, so the words of a man that you are taking as truth, even though you have no idea what he does behind closed doors or while the congregation isn’t around, is truth? Point out every scripture that I’ve quoted and tell me what I have misquoted or have taken out of context.

And to answer you two questions. The Word of God is more than a book. John 1 states.

1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2The same was in the beginning with God.

3All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

4In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

5And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

6There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.

7The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.

8He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.

9That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

10He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

11He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

14And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

So it is very clear that the word is more than a book. It is everything from God. Instruction comes from the Word, not man. The Holy Spirit is in us to lead and guide. Not the church. God saves and the church builds. The pillar of Truth is the Word, the church relays the truth.

And lastly, the Truth is right in front of me, with the words of Jesus in red. A church or denomination isn’t the truth but the Word of God. Again, being rooted in the Word gives me the right to speak firmly, not the church.

 

[jahsoul]

Are you talking about the gift of authority? We were all given special gifts from God. We all have the gift of the Holy Spirit given to us by God. The difference is that we all weren’t given the gift of authority to teach by God. That authority was given to the Apostles in the upper room. WE are to hold to the teachings and traditions as the Apostles handed down not change them to fit our lifestyle. We do not have any authority from Christ. The Holy Spirit is to guide us to Truth and help us, but it is up to us to be humble and open to the Truth as it is, not as we have come to believe it from churches that have been separated from Christ’s Church for almost 500 years teach it.

He actually gives the gift of teaching, ministering, and prophecy also. That’s in Romans 12.

 

[jahsoul]

If you don’t think that non-catholics think of themselves as "popes’ then you do you describe the difference in the view of non-catholics.
(Caveat here - I know I’m generalizing here but trying to be simple in my answer to jahsoul)
Non-catholics believe that the Pope, by himself, is some sort of ruler who tells us how to interpret the Bible.
Non-catholics believe that this is wrong and that THEY themselves are the ones who can tell us how to interpret the Bible.
Now - Noncathoics will be quick to admit that interpretation must be done in by the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Of course they are also quick to deny, either implicitly or explicitly that the Pope in Rome, with thousands of years of teaching history and supported by the Magisterium, is obviously NOT guided by the Holy Spirit.

Your statement is not false, but neither is it completely true either.
Christ commissioned the Apostles and Peter in particular to build, feed, and lead His Church. He Promised His own Protection and the Guidance of the Holy Spirit. He gave them Authority for the purpose of building sais Church.
Now since He knew that He was not returning in their lifetimes doesn’t it make sense that He would leave a way by which this authority would be passed on??

Don’t confuse the man with the office.
We have had many poor to even criminal presidents in the US but that doesn’t make the Office criminal or invalidate it as the head of the government.
We have indeed had both Great Spiritual Leaders and Poor Spiritual Leaders. Which makes it all the mnore remarkable that after nearly 2000 years the Truth of the Gospel is still intact in The Church. Even Poor and sinful men have not been able to pollute God’s Holy Teachings.

I agree that we should be careful about throwing words such as arrogant around.
This is true of both sides ofthe argument.

And Scripture also clearly states that it is The Church which is the Pillar and Foundation of Truth. The same Church that Jesus tells us to refer disputes to in Mt 18:15-18

Yes - Each gift is different. I cannot confect the Eucharist or forgive sins. WHY because this requires the gifts given to the validly ordained priesthood. So you see that the Gifts are indeed different.

Yes Truth IS the Word of God - and that Word is Jesus.
So - Now that we have that straight lets look at what The Word Jesus tells us in the written scriptures.
He founds a Church - He does not write a book
He Gives that Church authority to "Bind and Loose " - “Whatever”
He inspires the very first Apostle to be called from outside His original circle to write that The Church is the Pillar and Foundation of Truth.

So - The Truth is that The Word of God, who is Jesus Gave us The Church as our guide, and Through Her gave us the collection of holy works called The Bible.

Praise God’s Holy Word for His Mercy and Blessing.

Peace
James

I don’t know much about what the Pope does to discredit anything he does. I don’t make it my goal to see what he does because, he doesn’t really apply to me. I don’t say that the Holy Spirit doesn’t lead the Pope but to say the Holy Spirit doesn’t lead anyone with it is where I stand up. We all receive the same Holy Ghost, just a different gift through it.

So Jesus didn’t make us disciples and we do the same thing? And even Jesus doesn’t know when He is returning. Only the Father. He could have came back then.

And I’m not confusing the office with the man but the president is over the US, not strictly God’s people, so why would God place somebody in an office that will lead his people astray. God doesn’t operate like that.

And the last statement you made, Jesus and the church are two different things. The Word is the foundation of the church. It is one thing to found but to be the foundation is another. And John 1 tells us that Jesus was the Word made flesh.

 

[JRKH]

MDK,

Is the Tiber in the Bible? No it isn’t so I don’t know anything about it. But why couldn’t they swin a river in Jerusalem, where the church was started?

“Swimming the Tiber” is just a catchphrase. Don’t get hung up on it.

Also, I don’t know about any teaching from Martin Luther and I don’t believe I’m the final authority of anything. God is.

You may not know that certain teachings to which you hold are tracable to Martin Luther, but they are. So even without knowing it you are mired in the false teachings of the Protestant Reformation.

Again, Catholics didn’t write the Bible. The OT was written by Jews and the NT was written by Jewish Christians who never once called themselves Catholic in the scriptures. And it was written for Christians.

Since you don’t know much about how and where the Bible came from this can seem quite evident. However it is based upon a false assumption.
After the Incarnation there grew up a group of followers that were called “Christian”. They all belonged to a single “Church” That Christian Church was tagged with the Greek Word for Catholic, which simply means universal. Thus there was one Christian Church that was “Catholic” or “Universal”.
Members of this Universal Christian Church wrote memiors, and letters of instruction. This began to happen about 20 years after the ascention of Christ and continued unabated from that time until now. After about 3 and a half centuries, it was seen as good and necessary to gather together those writings of the Earliest Church that were believed to be inspired. In addition it was seen as prudent to include the inspired OT writings as support for the NT. It was by councils of the 'Universal" (that is catholic) Chrisitan Church at the End of the 4th Century that this work was accomplished creating the 72 book canon of the Bible.
This canon remained unchanged until about 500 years ago when Martin Luther and other Reformers removed decided to a different version of the OT and thus removed 7 books plus portions of 2 others from the Bible - Thus you are left with a 66 book canon.

Thus it can be seen that the Unified Christian Church was “Catholic” and that it is this unified Church that, 1) Wrote the texts of the Bible Books in the NT, 2) Assembled those books into the Bible canon, 3) Protected, defended, Translated, and taught from those books for 1000 years before martin Luther came along.
This Church NEVER taught that the Bible was the sole rule of faith - Which is what you believe. The bible does not teach this either. That Church taught - even before the Bible was compiled that Jesus founded a Church upon the Apostles and upon the Living Word, Himself.

So you see my friend - You are unwittingly influenced by Martin Luther and the false doctrine of Sola Scriptura.

Now if you can point me to scripture that shows otherwise then I would concede that point, but you still haven’t given me any scriptural background to any words that you say. I don’t need a prime minister on this earth because the Bible tells us (as clear as day again) that we have a High Priest in Heaven that intercedes for us. I pray to God through Jesus like the Word says we should do.

The Bible also tells us “As Clear As Day” that Christ Founded a Church - AND
That Church is the “Pillar and Foundation of Truth”

So it is very clear that the word is more than a book.

It is indeed - It is Christ, living in His Church and present to us All in the Holy Eucharist.

It is everything from God. Instruction comes from the Word, not man.

Yes - But don’t confuse the written words of the Bible, which can be twisted and misunderstood. with the Living Word of Christ.

The Holy Spirit is in us to lead and guide. Not the church. God saves and the church builds. The pillar of Truth is the Word, the church relays the truth.

The Holy Spirit Guides - Yes, but the Church provides the counterbalance that prevents error. The Pillar of Truth is “The Church” - Look it up.

And lastly, the Truth is right in front of me, with the words of Jesus in red. A church or denomination isn’t the truth but the Word of God. Again, being rooted in the Word gives me the right to speak firmly, not the church.

Again - you are confusing the written words of the Bible with THE WORD which is Christ.
As beautiful and necessary as The Bible is, - As Inspired and authoritative as it is, it is nothing without the proper guidance and interpretation.
Look into the bible and note that Christ founded a church and not a book.
Note that He gave that Church Authority
and that Paul (a “scripture only” pharasee convert) who says that it is “The Church” and not Scripture that is the pillar and foundation of Truth.

Peace
James

 

[JRKH]

I don’t know much about what the Pope does to discredit anything he does. I don’t make it my goal to see what he does because, he doesn’t really apply to me. I don’t say that the Holy Spirit doesn’t lead the Pope but to say the Holy Spirit doesn’t lead anyone with it is where I stand up. We all receive the same Holy Ghost, just a different gift through it.

In this you did not answer the question I asked.
You stated that you don’t think that non-catholics think of themselves as popes and I asked you what the difference is when a non-catholic feels that they can personally interpret scripture and tehn come here and tell us taht our interpretation is wrong?

So Jesus didn’t make us disciples and we do the same thing? And even Jesus doesn’t know when He is returning. Only the Father. He could have came back then.

You said ti yourself - Different gifts.

And I’m not confusing the office with the man but the president is over the US, not strictly God’s people, so why would God place somebody in an office that will lead his people astray. God doesn’t operate like that.

Please re-read my post and try not to let analogies run together.
God has not ever placed anyone in an office that will lead His people astray. That doe not mean that there haven’t been sinful Popes. the point is that, even with sinful men in office the dogmatic teachings of the Church were not damaged but survived intact.

And the last statement you made, Jesus and the church are two different things. The Word is the foundation of the church. It is one thing to found but to be the foundation is another. And John 1 tells us that Jesus was the Word made flesh.

I can’t answer this because i don’t understand what you are saying.

Peace
James

 

[MDK]

MDK,

Is the Tiber in the Bible? No it isn’t so I don’t know anything about it. But why couldn’t they swin a river in Jerusalem, where the church was started?

Also, I don’t know about any teaching from Martin Luther and I don’t believe I’m the final authority of anything. God is.

…

And to answer you two questions. The Word of God is more than a book. John 1 states.

So it is very clear that the word is more than a book. It is everything from God. Instruction comes from the Word, not man. The Holy Spirit is in us to lead and guide. Not the church. God saves and the church builds. The pillar of Truth is the Word, the church relays the truth.

And lastly, the Truth is right in front of me, with the words of Jesus in red. A church or denomination isn’t the truth but the Word of God. Again, being rooted in the Word gives me the right to speak firmly, not the church.

Why Christ made Peter go to Rome is interesting, but there it is. Your beef is with Christ on this one. The Prime Minister of Christ’s earthly Kingdom resides in Rome, where the first Prime Minister was martyred.

True enough, you may not have learned about Martin Luther. There was no implication that you had. The discussion was that you use the same tools has he came up with to deny the authority of God’s Church. Yes, you do decide for yourself, and so you are your own final interpreter. Otherwise, please tell us who interprets Scripture for you, and who do you defer to if yours conflicts with another’s?

Since you don’t know anything outside the Bible, you must be in really sad shape, because you don’t know the Bible either. Sadly, you don’t know where it came from, who wrote it, what it means, the context in which it was written, and where it fits into the bigger picture.

Since the Catholic Church is the New Covenant Church of Christ, they could have only written the NT. One would have to be willfully ignorant to interpret as though Catholics wrote what we call the OT Scriptures. Nevertheless, the Catholic Church assembled the Scriptures together into the OT and NT. There is no other authority on earth who did this. So, if you believe these texts are inspired, you also believe in the authority of the Catholic Church to assemble the correct ones, whether you admit this or not.

The NT was indeed written by Catholics. Peter was Catholic, James was Catholic, John was Catholic, Matthew was Catholic, Paul was Catholic… It was 10 years after Christ ascended that even the first Scriptures were written, and so the context of these Scriptures was in the context of the early Catholic Church. The Scriptures were written to the faithful, who were all Catholic… there was no other Church. The formal name came later, but it was and is this same Church in the early stages of it’s earthly life. What’s more, everyone in Heaven is Catholic, those in Purgatory are Catholic… not that you’ll admit this or even understand what this means. You would not even have a Bible if it were not for the Catholic Church. The addition of the descriptive word “Catholic” changed nothing about the Church. It was the same before and after.

It’s really funny that you say you don’t need a Prime Minister, and that the Bible gives you everything plain as day, and still you say you are not your own final interpreter of Scripture. Doesn’t really add up, does it?

There are plenty of Scriptural references, and if done more deeply deserve a different thread. However, I would recommend that you read 2 Peter 3:16:“As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are certain things hard to be understood*, which the unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, to their own destruction.*” This truly means that the Bible is not easy to read, and not plain as day. So, here is another example of you not really heeding Scriptures.

I have given you understandings, which anyone who really seeks truth would examine for themselves.

Peter as head Apostle - Matthew 16:18-19 (keys only given to Peter, who is the rock of the Church)
Office of Prime Minister - Isiah 22:19-25 (shadow of the real to come)
… there are more, but it would mean more if you actually did some work instead of denying the good others do for you.

Your pride and arrogance are great in you, and so need to be overcome. You will never see the truth unless you become humble enough to believe what Christ taught, instead of what you want.

You didn’t answer my questions honestly, did you? What are you afraid of? I hope you at least admit it to yourself, as this will be the beginning of something truly coming to God.

**Did God build a living Church for us, or simply give us a Book to read and figure it all out for ourselves?

What is the pillar and bulwark of the truth, is it the Church or a Book? **

Since you only go by your interpretation of our Book, the Bible, then you are missing out on the true picture, since you interpret our Book incorrectly.

It’s really funny that you deny the authority of the Church, and prefer the Bible because the Bible itself reads in 1 Tim 3:15 “But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.”

The Catholic Church is not a denomination, but is the one and only Church started by Christ, as the living pillar and bulwark of the truth, teaching without error the truth of Christ, with infallible Prime Minister of Christ’s earthly Kingdom as protected by the Holy Spirit. All other churches and individuals who interpret our Bible, are indeed creating their own man made religions…, and this currently includes you.

 

[MDK]

MDK, …

And am I taking the Word out of context by quoting them? I could say that you are doing the same thing, but again, you haven’t given any, so the words of a man that you are taking as truth, even though you have no idea what he does behind closed doors or while the congregation isn’t around, is truth? Point out every scripture that I’ve quoted and tell me what I have misquoted or have taken out of context…

No need to interject a straw man arugrment since you don’t have a leg to stand on. It’s quite clear that simply quoting Scripture is not under discussion, and I believe you know this.

What is being debated is your interpretations, which are pretty much all wrong since they start out in your own context of the Bible is all you need, you are your final interpreter, the Holy Spirit was promised to you to override what the Apostles taught, if it’s not in the Bible then it isn’t true, the Bible is easy to read and is plain as day… all of these contexts are false, no matter who is employing them.

The true context is that the Bible is a Catholic Church document and only makes sense in the context of Catholicism, as it was written by inspired Catholics for Catholics. God sends His Holy Spirit to protect the Church from teaching error to the faithful. The faithful are obedient to Christ by listening to those whom Christ sent. We can read the Bible, but must give right of final interpretation to the Pope and Magisterium, whom Christ established. This is the proper context of the Scriptures.

 

[po18guy]

I believe you are in error with respect to Seventh Day Adventist beliefs on the Trinity. adventist.org/beliefs/fundamental/index.html

Believing that Jesus is actually Michael the Archangel (a creation of God) definitely alters their concept of the Holy Trinity. Our Risen Lord cannot be both “begotten, not made” and at the same time, created as an Angel by God.

I went to exadventist.com/Home/Intro/tabid/64/Default.aspx a site which was established by a former Adventist pastor. On the info page, he writes:

1.  Do Seventh-day Adventists teach Jesus is Michael the Archangel?

Yes, Seventh-day Adventists share this belief with Jehovah’s Witnesses. Adventists are very firm in their belief that Jesus is Michael the Archangel. They must take this position because this is what their prophetess, Ellen G. White taught. They also believe that Jesus is God. There is a glaring contradiction here. Hebrews 1:13-14 says that Jesus is not an angel.

So, it all boils down to the SDA following a false prophet(ess), whose words are held to be “inspired”, just as scripture is. Reading through their beliefs that are non-biblical based reveals where they have been lead astray.

 

[MDK]

MDK: For someone, who rebukes non-catholics, who strongly believe that the Almighty, living God is able to empowerANY believer, to evangelize, witness, and make disciples(Matthew 28:19-20), you yourself present an air of superiority, by telling us that we are wrong to believe such things1 You in effect, are keeping people from enjoying a closse, oersonal relationship with God, through Christ. I am not my own pope,priest, cardinal,etc., but I am a believer, and a witness for my KIng! Jesus did not specifically say,“You apostles are the only ones who can disciple people.” As I stated earlier, He speaks to all of us; catholics just decide to insulate their people, and reliant on men, who purportedly were ordained by laying on of hands, down through the ages! And I am not saying that catholics are wrong, just different,just as Mormons are different from Jews, and so on, and so on! Your church, however, considers anyone who doesn’t agree with them to be not only wrong, but ignorant, deluded and separated! Why can’t you just accept the gact, that we don’t believe that your pope is infallible, Mary was not a perpetual virgin, and that we don’t believe in purgatory? Sheesh!

Sorry, but you’ve got this wrong as well. Like I’ve said before, my confidence in the truths taught by the Catholic Church is necessary, otherwise I would be arrogant and go against God. The Catholic Church is not only right, but is right where everyone else is wrong. Therefore, I have to tell you this, otherwise I would be a liar in telling you the Church is not true. It is precisely humility and acceptance of the truth in the way Christ established that you seem to call “air of superiority.” It’s is ironic then, that my knowledge and faith system (Catholicism) is superior to yours through my humility to God. While your knowledge and and faith system is inferior to mine due to your arrogance and pridefulness toward God. If I have superior faith system, it is strictly due to my humility in following what Christ established. How would anyone understand that as an "air of superiortiy? It is an air of humility which leads to understanding and obedience.

If you actually listened to the truths I am telling you, which come from those whom Christ sent to continue His mission, you would have a closer relationship with God.

It is precisely your errant beliefs that keep you further from our Lord. How can you be close to someone whom you really don’t understand much about, reject through rejection of His teachers, rejection of His Sacraments… how would that work out?

I’m telling you the truth, that’s all… Mary was sinless, ever Virgin, and the Mother of God… all by the grace of God. Jesus left us with a Prime Minister, or Pope. There is a Purgatory. I really don’t care whether you believe these or not, but it is my job to tell you the truth, and that I have done faithfully. Why you behave as if you are smarter than God, by rejecting those whom He sent, I don’t know… would your kind of behavior be considered an “air of superiority?” We only come to God by being humble. Currently, by your own choice, that leaves you on the outside throwing stones at the truth.

 

[po18guy]

So it is very clear that the word is more than a book. It is everything from God. Instruction comes from the Word, not man. The Holy Spirit is in us to lead and guide.

How can you be sure that it is the Holy Spirit that leads you?

The pillar of Truth is the Word, the church relays the truth.

Paul claims that the Church is the pillar and foundation of the truth. (1 Timothy 3:15). Again, how can you be so sure that it is the Holy Spirit leading you?

And lastly, the Truth is right in front of me, with the words of Jesus in red. A church or denomination isn’t the truth but the Word of God. Again, being rooted in the Word gives me the right to speak firmly, not the church.

Did God speak through Moses? Was Moses a sinner? Did Jesus say to the Apostles “He who hears you hears me” and “He who rejects you rejects me”? (Luke 10:16) It sure sounds like you reject those whom He sent. The Lord clearly uses humans to lead by the Holy Spirit and to teach. What do you suppose Christ was thinking in Matthew 28 when he gave the great commission to the Apostles?

 

[ckempston]

“Swimming the Tiber” is just a catchphrase. Don’t get hung up on it.

You may not know that certain teachings to which you hold are tracable to Martin Luther, but they are. So even without knowing it you are mired in the false teachings of the Protestant Reformation.

Since you don’t know much about how and where the Bible came from this can seem quite evident. However it is based upon a false assumption.
After the Incarnation there grew up a group of followers that were called “Christian”. They all belonged to a single “Church” That Christian Church was tagged with the Greek Word for Catholic, which simply means universal. Thus there was one Christian Church that was “Catholic” or “Universal”.
Members of this Universal Christian Church wrote memiors, and letters of instruction. This began to happen about 20 years after the ascention of Christ and continued unabated from that time until now. After about 3 and a half centuries, it was seen as good and necessary to gather together those writings of the Earliest Church that were believed to be inspired. In addition it was seen as prudent to include the inspired OT writings as support for the NT. It was by councils of the 'Universal" (that is catholic) Chrisitan Church at the End of the 4th Century that this work was accomplished creating the 72 book canon of the Bible.
This canon remained unchanged until about 500 years ago when Martin Luther and other Reformers removed decided to a different version of the OT and thus removed 7 books plus portions of 2 others from the Bible - Thus you are left with a 66 book canon.

Thus it can be seen that the Unified Christian Church was “Catholic” and that it is this unified Church that, 1) Wrote the texts of the Bible Books in the NT, 2) Assembled those books into the Bible canon, 3) Protected, defended, Translated, and taught from those books for 1000 years before martin Luther came along.
This Church NEVER taught that the Bible was the sole rule of faith - Which is what you believe. The bible does not teach this either. That Church taught - even before the Bible was compiled that Jesus founded a Church upon the Apostles and upon the Living Word, Himself.

So you see my friend - You are unwittingly influenced by Martin Luther and the false doctrine of Sola Scriptura.

The Bible also tells us “As Clear As Day” that Christ Founded a Church - AND
That Church is the “Pillar and Foundation of Truth”

It is indeed - It is Christ, living in His Church and present to us All in the Holy Eucharist.

Yes - But don’t confuse the written words of the Bible, which can be twisted and misunderstood. with the Living Word of Christ.

The Holy Spirit Guides - Yes, but the Church provides the counterbalance that prevents error. The Pillar of Truth is “The Church” - Look it up.

Again - you are confusing the written words of the Bible with THE WORD which is Christ.
As beautiful and necessary as The Bible is, - As Inspired and authoritative as it is, it is nothing without the proper guidance and interpretation.
Look into the bible and note that Christ founded a church and not a book.
Note that He gave that Church Authority
and that Paul (a “scripture only” pharasee convert) who says that it is “The Church” and not Scripture that is the pillar and foundation of Truth.

Peace
James

The church is not the foundation of anything. As I’ve pointed out elsewhere, this is a horrid mistranslation. Bulwark or support are better words, and they do not support the Catholic impression that the church is the “source” of truth or something that more truth gets built upon. Jesus Christ is the Foundation.

 

[MDK]

MDK: …Your church, however, considers anyone who doesn’t agree with them to be not only wrong, but ignorant, deluded and separated! Why can’t you just accept the gact, that we don’t believe that your pope is infallible, Mary was not a perpetual virgin, and that we don’t believe in purgatory? Sheesh!

Because there is objective truth, and part of that reality is that no other church or individual can tell you what the truth is other than the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church is the pillar and bulwark of the truth, as built by Christ. Those who are faithful to the Catholic Church teachings can be as disciples and repeat these teachings as well, as we are doing. There are not individual versions of truth which conflict. The Holy Spirit does not lead Christians in different “truths” which conflict with each other. That you are denying the truths of Christ is an insult to our Lord, and will not bring you any closer to Him. We are charitably telling you these things, for your own good, and of love for Christ.

 

[MDK]

The church is not the foundation of anything. As I’ve pointed out elsewhere, this is a horrid mistranslation. Bulwark or support are better words, and they do not support the Catholic impression that the church is the “source” of truth or something that more truth gets built upon. Jesus Christ is the Foundation.

Why should anyone believe your own interpretation, as though you are final interpreter for God?

Jesus (the King) is the cornerstone, and Peter (Prime Minister) is the rock of the Church as established by Christ. The Church is the one through whom Christ teaches on Earth. The Church is the Body of Christ, with Christ as the Head. Since the King went to Heaven to be seated on His Throne, the Prime Minister acts in His behalf as visible head while the King is away, all as Christ established. The Church only exists because of Christ. It is His Church, and we desire to be members of His Body, and so are in His Church.

 

[po18guy]

This opened my eyes this morning!!!

It did in a good way. I am really glad to see this today. I battle a lot of Protestant influence on me. I have to re-train my thinking, my habits, and remind myself that is isn’t about me, it isn’t about what I want, or the way I want it - It is about how Christ established the Truth and what He wants us to do. It is not that I want to reject those who Christ sent, but it is that I want something else more sometimes. I don’t think that non-Catholics even see that they have been taught error from fallible men. It is just all they know. It is really amazing when God takes those blinders off and you see that there is so much more than what humans have minimized it to.

Exactly! To follow Christ: 1. Deny yourself. 2. Take up your cross daily 3. Follow Him. (Luke 9:23) It must be in that order, as Christ, our perfect Teacher, gave it to us. Obedience is Denial of self. This is a very hard saying, especially in revolutionary, champion of the individual, self-sufficient America! Obedience was thrown out long ago.

We must follow those whom Christ sent (Luke 10:16) not only to hear Christ, but to retain unity amongst the faithful. Those who depart and go their own way are lead by many spirits. Are not 30,000+ disagreeing denominations proof of this?