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josie_L
Guest
What is faith, Howie, does it not entail obedience, and as such if you disobey, i.e., sin, can you not lose your justification/salvation?
Protestants: how do you know that your interpretation of the Bible is the right one?
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jevinslil
Guest
I have read 15 pages or so of this debate. Has the original question even been answered?
Many of you are much more learned than I. So I will not even attempt to debate.
I agree that more than one denomination is too many. We should be working on resolving our doctrinal differences, not browbeating one another about who’s right and who’s wrong.
As a Catholic I believe the Church has the fullness of truth. It is hard for me to understand these other interpretations.
The main point to me is that we should promote Christian unity, and treat each other with charity and kindness.
To answer the question of the thread, is it not obvious from history that the RCC put together and preserved the Holy Scripture?
God Bless,
jevinslil
:grouphug:
Many of you are much more learned than I. So I will not even attempt to debate.
I agree that more than one denomination is too many. We should be working on resolving our doctrinal differences, not browbeating one another about who’s right and who’s wrong.
As a Catholic I believe the Church has the fullness of truth. It is hard for me to understand these other interpretations.
The main point to me is that we should promote Christian unity, and treat each other with charity and kindness.
To answer the question of the thread, is it not obvious from history that the RCC put together and preserved the Holy Scripture?
God Bless,
jevinslil
:grouphug:
M
MrS
Guest
We have placed marriage as a sacrament in the Church. If you are married, I would assume that you value that union as union with God.
However, a visible sign of that union is your wedding ring… truly a pagan symbol. Perhaps you should remove it.
As to doctrines and dogmas… do you understand the difference? Do you understand what a Catholic discipline is? Or a Catholic tradition? Or do you, like many others, lump anything you may not understand , and anything which you do not practice, into the same arena of “pagan”? Have you any sense of the Jewish roots of Catholicism?
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rinnie
Guest
So do I. Thats why I am Roman Catholic. I was raised RC since birth. I was touched by God about 3 days after my birth. That is when I received the gift of Grace and Love through the Sacrament of Baptism, Then at about third grade I received the Sacrament of communion. That is when I learned the actual presense of Jesus Christ. Then in about 8th grade I received the sacramement of Comfirmation. Then At 19 received the sacarment of Marriage.
Jesus Christ told us early to be carefull that the devil can get to any of us. I know there were many good Priests that fell from Grace. Why, because they are human, and the devil really wants the good. Like my Mom always said he has the bad, he is after the good. Why did some priests fall out of grace and into sin, who knows. That is not my problem, But Jesus left us the Church. The Catholic Church is the living Christ. Jesus promised me that the CHurch would never fail. I don’t recall him ever telling me that Priests would not fall from grace. Actually as I told you Jesus did warn me about that. But his Church never would. And thats all that I need to worry about. If you feel that you have found a Church that your leaders are perfect and never fell from grace, God bless you, because you are very very misled. My Church has never misled me in the truth. Have some of its leaders fell from Grace, yes it did. Show me a human being, Just one. in this world who has not sinned. Jesus, the Blessed Mother and John the Baptist don’t count.
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MrS
Guest
I encourage all protestants to consider re-reading Paul, St Paul that is, in this light:
In the chapters of Romans that deal with Faith, Paul is clear about opening and closing that instruction with the words Obedience of Faith. And for all the times he uses the word faith, and for all the times he uses alone… the Holy Spirit NEVER inspired him to use the words together. Paul was a scholar, not a dummy. He knew what we wrote. But… much of what he wrote can be confusing, and that is why the Holy Spirit is there to guide …??
to guide each of use to different conclusions? Nope
to guide some of us 2000 years later to a new form of enlightenment? Nope
to continue to guide those chosen to fill the offices in the only Church Jesus founded? Yep
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MrS
Guest
Good post rinnie… it appears that you know that when you have faith, you want more of it… that is the Catholic way. Outside the Church, many “who have faith” present themselves as “I got it, job done”.
The problem of many denominations is possibly this… the founders of those groups have tried to think like God thinks. They will deny this… but when you shun the teaching authority given by God, it is like telling Phillip to “get out of my carriage, I can do this…”
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Jerry_Marino
Guest
i don’t understand where you coming from my friend but if you believe you can lose your salvation fine. in your quote of Scripture above that i’ve highlighted in bold letters states it very clearly of those who are saved will not perish.
God bless you
M
MrS
Guest
agreed… those who are saved will not perish. That would be impossible… to be both.
Your error is in thinking once saved, always saved… that is erroneous, unreasonable, unhistorical, and unbiblical.
You know it… it think you really know that. But it is easier for fragile mankind, to think that way and be relieved of any concern for tomorrow. Thankfully, St Paul did not think that way… and recognized that he was still a sinner, still had free will, and still could lose what he had gained… thus he asked for prayers, and strength to continue the fight, to endure, to the end.
He knew that our individual judgment did not come in this lifetime (at that moment we “did” something - accept Jesus)… OSAS implies we have already been judged… another error of thinking that justification is a forensic moment… a “courtroom” declaration.
Nope, Catholics received it right, got it right, teach it right, and share it right. You are in error. Angels will rejoice when you come home.
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Howie01
Guest
josie L:
When one is regenerate he dies to the law, therefore, the consequences of the law can no longer harm him (Rom 7:1-6).
Obedience is involved, but not perfection as Catholics believe. Nothing can separate the justified from the love of God.
When one is regenerate he dies to the law, therefore, the consequences of the law can no longer harm him (Rom 7:1-6).
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Jerry_Marino
Guest
oxymoron with your statement in bold mrs
i never said i was sinless cause to say i am without sin is to call God a liar. that is why when i sin i confess it to God and ask Him to help me with that weakness.i have free will like all do that is why each and everyone of us must surrender our will to that of God’s will and what is that will?
you say that i am in error with me accepting Christ?
if that is what your stating, i beg to differ, that you may be sitting in error. read John 1:12-13.
osas does imply we’ve been judged it implies we are justified. read your Bible as to what paul writes on justification.
God bless you
E
elvisman
Guest
Who’s** using Israel for doctrine?? I was pointing out that PAUL was using them as a warning because they didn’t remain in God’s kindness and were cut off from the vine.**If your going to use Israel for doctrine, you must use all of her history, not just selective, out-of-context cherry picking, such as you’re engaging in, IMO.
God called Israel for no special reason. God kept Israel even when they rebelled and apostatized. God kept Israel even though they crucified His Son. God kept Israel even though they were cut away from the vine and Gentiles were grafted in. God promises to save Israel in the end (Is 66:7-9; Zech 12:10-13:1) so that even their disobedience will exalt His mercy (Rom 11:32).
Just as God has remained faithful to undeserving Israel, so will He be faithful to undeserving believing sinners. God will never annul His promise or cast out those who have come to Him through Christ (Jn 6:37; 17:2).
God’s promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and be guaranteed to those who have faith (Rom 4:16). Justification is assured when one believes. Those who think justification can be earned or maintained by human faithfulness nullify God’s grace and His promise of eternal security. Anyone who counts on attaining and preserving justification can have no assurance.
Right you are.
Actually, if you continue reading the passage, you’ll find those who Christ never knew are those who plead their works for justification (v22).
Moral assurance? Paul doesn’t preach moral assurance.
That’s an old, hackneyed appeal to emotion.
C’mon, Paul is speaking rewards (v18).
Moses is a prime example of one who was disqualified from finishing the race, but still reaped the benefits of eternal life. Paul’s not speaking of justification in that passage—he knew his citizenship is heaven (Php 3:20).
Biblical hope is a confident hope based upon the promises of God; it’s not a hope-so-hope, based upon a moral assurance.
BTW, what is a moral assurance, elvisman? (Bet it has to do with your works.)
Secondly, since you have no true understanding of the scriptures (because you refuse to read them in context) , you twist them to your own destruction (2 Pet. 3:16). Instead of addressing my points, you resort to cheap ad hominem attacks. By the way, the comparison of God to a monster and a rapist was taken from a highly-respected Protestant apologist – Hank Hanagraff.
Lastly, moral assurance is the hope that we have within us of the promises of Christ – if we persevere. (2 Pet. 1:10-11)
You can continue to turn a blind eye to the truth and live in an OSAS fantasy which is unsupported by the CONTEXT of scripture – or you can accept the truth.
Here are but a few examples of the scriptural evidence of moral assurance or “moral certitude”:
Gal. 5:5** - for through the Spirit by faith we wait for the “hope” (not the certainty) of righteousness. **
Phil. 1:20** - as it is my eager expectation and “hope” (not certainty) that I shall not be at all ashamed before Christ. **
1 Thess. 5:8** - we must put on the helmet of “hope”" (not of certainty) of salvation. **
Titus 3:7** - Paul says we have been given the Spirit so we might become heirs in the “hope” (not the certainty) of eternal life. **
Heb. 10:23** - let us hold fast the confession of our “hope” without wavering, for He who promised is faithful. **
Heb. 11:1** - now faith is the assurance of things “hoped” for (not guaranteed), the conviction of things not seen (heaven). **
James 1:12** - we must endure trial and withstand the test in order to receive the crown of life. It is not guaranteed.**
Rev. 3:11 - Jesus says to hold fast to what we have, so that no one may seize our crown. Jesus teaches us that we can have the crown of salvation and lose it.
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SteveGC
Guest
MrS,
As you reply to Howie’s previous post, you can also read my response to it, and his attempt to rebut it…
Post 1000
God Bless
S
SteveGC
Guest
How is it that you are not already judged if you are already saved?
Also, if you agree you must confess sin, which you stated above, why do you not believe this confession (repentance) is necessary for your salvation?
H
Howie01
Guest
Romans 11 is about Israel, elvisman.
You rail that I don’t read scripture in context when in fact, it’s you who doesn’t recognize the context of Romans 11.
You’re the one who doesn’t recognize the context of Romans 11, elvisman.
I haven’t attacked you, elvisman, but your out-of-context use of Romans 11.
I don’t care who uses the comparison, it’s an old and hackneyed appeal to emotion.
There’s no statement of “moral assurance” in that passage, but an exhortation to those who are Christ’s to live rightly.
Simply referring to a passage with the word “moral” in it, doesn’t prove your position. Peter also says of the justified that it’s God who "has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time."
That’s much more sure than morally sure.
IMO, you’ve yet to demonstrate that you can recognize context.
So you think posting a bunch of out-of-context verses with the word “hope” in it, and without any explanation, proves your point?
Where’s the context, and some kind of explanation? :ehh:
C
christian1
Guest
To Howie
Paul begins the chapter with this question: God has not rejected people, has He? May it never be! The context again is national Israel.
God does not and will not ever reject those who ACCEPT HIS WAY.
His way is faith with obedience. The entire bible is FULL of examples and it applies to ALL of those who wish to REMAIN in Him.
We are predestined because the plan of God has been from the foundation of the world. If we accept His plan and His way, and His terms, which the Bible is overflowing with, THEN, we will be His and stay His and nothing can remove us EXCEPT US, the individual believer.
I must ask you, why is there a hell?
Paul begins the chapter with this question: God has not rejected people, has He? May it never be! The context again is national Israel.
God does not and will not ever reject those who ACCEPT HIS WAY.
His way is faith with obedience. The entire bible is FULL of examples and it applies to ALL of those who wish to REMAIN in Him.
We are predestined because the plan of God has been from the foundation of the world. If we accept His plan and His way, and His terms, which the Bible is overflowing with, THEN, we will be His and stay His and nothing can remove us EXCEPT US, the individual believer.
I must ask you, why is there a hell?
H
Howie01
Guest
It’s the final destination of the fallen angelic hosts, and those humans who disobey the command to repent and believe.
E
elvisman
Guest
Your problem is that you don’t know the difference between justification and salvation.Romans 11 is about Israel, elvisman.
You rail that I don’t read scripture in context when in fact, it’s you who doesn’t recognize the context of Romans 11.
You’re the one who doesn’t recognize the context of Romans 11, elvisman.
I haven’t attacked you, elvisman, but your out-of-context use of Romans 11.
I don’t care who uses the comparison, it’s an old and hackneyed appeal to emotion.
There’s no statement of “moral assurance” in that passage, but an exhortation to those who are Christ’s to live rightly.
Simply referring to a passage with the word “moral” in it, doesn’t prove your position. Peter also says of the justified that it’s God who "has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time."
That’s much more sure than morally sure.
IMO, you’ve yet to demonstrate that you can recognize context.
So you think posting a bunch of out-of-context verses with the word “hope” in it, and without any explanation, proves your point?
Where’s the context, and some kind of explanation? :ehh:
Justification** is our transformation from the state of unrepentant unrighteousness to a state of holiness and sonship of God. We can still sin (and do) and can still be cut off.**
Salvation** is when we are finally sanctified – final liberation from the evils of this world.**
Apparently, you have no idea what “Hope” is. Hope is the desire of something together with the expectation of obtaining it
If I have a million dollars coming to me because of a service I provided – I have hope that the contract will be fulfilled and that I’ll be paid as promised.
If I have the million dollars in my pocket (certainty) after being paid, I no longer HOPE for it because I HAVE it.**
**Finally, about Romans 11. Tell me something, Howie – who is Paul writing to in Romans? He is writing to the Christians in Rome. **
**In Romans 11, he is warning them about losing favor with God, lest they be cut off as Israel was. **
If you can’t see this, then you have no business exegeting scripture.
One last time – Romans 11:21-23 (read slowly and carefully):
***“For if God did not spare the natural branches (Jews), (perhaps) he will not spare you either (Christians). ***
***See, then, the kindness and severity of God: severity toward those who fell (Jews), but God’s kindness to you, provided you remain in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off (Christians). ***
And they also (Jews), if they do not remain in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them (Jews) in again.”
Truly, there are none so blind as they who refuse to see . . .
C
christian1
Guest
To Howie
Just as God has remained faithful to undeserving Israel, so will He be faithful to undeserving believing sinners. God will never annul His promise or cast out those who have come to Him through Christ (Jn 6:37; 17:2).
Yes, God will always be faithful and we will always be undeserving of His goodness because while we were in sin He gave the gift of salvation. Through one man sin entered into the world and we inherited that sin and were separated from God. It is this sin that we could not be cleansed of unless another Adam were to come and live a sinless life and offer His blood to pay for mankinds redemption. This is the sin that is payed for that allows us to be in relationship with God once more. If we had lived a sinless life, this sin would still separate us from God, which is why a second Adam was necessary. Anybody is allowed to partake in this gift. As you know God’s desire is that NONE perish but have everlasting life. It does not ever say that because God desires it, it will be done. The opposite in fact is spoken because all of our existance hangs on our decisions as free moral agents.
If we are not free to choose, choices would not be presented. But choices have been presented all over the Bible. Everything God offers comes with a condition. It’s a divine law. Grace has it’s conditions, salvation, justification, sanctification, all have conditions. All of nature operates under the same law as it should. Everything is dependant upon the actions of something in the natural and the spiritual. The coexist together. To take away this law that is widespread throughout the bible, is like taking away the effects of gravity. When you throw the rock up, it falls down.
When you disobey God, there are consequences. It has nothing to do with grace as it has to do with a divine law preordained and set into place before the foundation of the world.
You cannot say you believe and not obey. The bible says your a liar if you do say this and do not obey. Obeidience alone cannot save you. Faith alone cannot save you. You well know that it is faith accompanied with works that demonstrates salvation in it’s entirety.
God is not a respector of persons. We are also children of God. What applies to Israel applies to us in respect to God’s laws of salvation though they were delivered at different times and in different ways, the underlying law is the same. Faith with obedience. You CANNOT have one without the other or else your faith is DEAD. None existant, null and void. Faith is believing, and if your belief is dead, it doesn’t exist, THEREFORE…you can say your saved all day long, but unless you produce fruit in keeping with your claim, you are a liar and the truth is not in you.
God does not lose you, you lose God. God loses no one for He is always faithful and never changing. We, however are not. Nobody can take us from God’s hand. But God does not hold us beyond our wills either.
God’s promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and be guaranteed to those who have faith (Rom 4:16).
Yes God’s promise comes by faith, and it is guaranteed to those who ACCEPT JESUS. To accept Him is not just a verbal contract but a contract of obedience.
Justification is assured when one believes.
This is only true for those who believe. And the Word of God clearly demonstrates that those who believe or have ‘faith’ also have works that reflect that faith. If you do not, your faith, your belief is a lie. So yes, only those that ‘believe unto repentance’ are truly justified. The rest honor God with their lips but their hearts are far from Him. These profess to be His children but in fact these will be told, ‘depart from me, I never knew you’.
Those who think justification can be earned or maintained by human faithfulness nullify God’s grace and His promise of eternal security.
Justification is a result of obedience unto faith. I’m not sure what your not understanding. We cannot be justified by works alone. But our faith with our works is what justifies us. As is given the example in
Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Jas 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
Jas 2:23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
Jas 2:25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
Jas 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
Anyone who counts on attaining and preserving justification can have no assurance.
This is simply not true. I have assurance that if I remain faithful to God and follow Him, that I am saved. My assurance is firm. I know that He WILL DO exactly as He promises to those WHO OBEY and to those WHO DO NOT.
Which is why there is a hell.
Just as God has remained faithful to undeserving Israel, so will He be faithful to undeserving believing sinners. God will never annul His promise or cast out those who have come to Him through Christ (Jn 6:37; 17:2).
Yes, God will always be faithful and we will always be undeserving of His goodness because while we were in sin He gave the gift of salvation. Through one man sin entered into the world and we inherited that sin and were separated from God. It is this sin that we could not be cleansed of unless another Adam were to come and live a sinless life and offer His blood to pay for mankinds redemption. This is the sin that is payed for that allows us to be in relationship with God once more. If we had lived a sinless life, this sin would still separate us from God, which is why a second Adam was necessary. Anybody is allowed to partake in this gift. As you know God’s desire is that NONE perish but have everlasting life. It does not ever say that because God desires it, it will be done. The opposite in fact is spoken because all of our existance hangs on our decisions as free moral agents.
If we are not free to choose, choices would not be presented. But choices have been presented all over the Bible. Everything God offers comes with a condition. It’s a divine law. Grace has it’s conditions, salvation, justification, sanctification, all have conditions. All of nature operates under the same law as it should. Everything is dependant upon the actions of something in the natural and the spiritual. The coexist together. To take away this law that is widespread throughout the bible, is like taking away the effects of gravity. When you throw the rock up, it falls down.
When you disobey God, there are consequences. It has nothing to do with grace as it has to do with a divine law preordained and set into place before the foundation of the world.
You cannot say you believe and not obey. The bible says your a liar if you do say this and do not obey. Obeidience alone cannot save you. Faith alone cannot save you. You well know that it is faith accompanied with works that demonstrates salvation in it’s entirety.
God is not a respector of persons. We are also children of God. What applies to Israel applies to us in respect to God’s laws of salvation though they were delivered at different times and in different ways, the underlying law is the same. Faith with obedience. You CANNOT have one without the other or else your faith is DEAD. None existant, null and void. Faith is believing, and if your belief is dead, it doesn’t exist, THEREFORE…you can say your saved all day long, but unless you produce fruit in keeping with your claim, you are a liar and the truth is not in you.
God does not lose you, you lose God. God loses no one for He is always faithful and never changing. We, however are not. Nobody can take us from God’s hand. But God does not hold us beyond our wills either.
God’s promise comes by faith, so that it may be by grace and be guaranteed to those who have faith (Rom 4:16).
Yes God’s promise comes by faith, and it is guaranteed to those who ACCEPT JESUS. To accept Him is not just a verbal contract but a contract of obedience.
Justification is assured when one believes.
This is only true for those who believe. And the Word of God clearly demonstrates that those who believe or have ‘faith’ also have works that reflect that faith. If you do not, your faith, your belief is a lie. So yes, only those that ‘believe unto repentance’ are truly justified. The rest honor God with their lips but their hearts are far from Him. These profess to be His children but in fact these will be told, ‘depart from me, I never knew you’.
Those who think justification can be earned or maintained by human faithfulness nullify God’s grace and His promise of eternal security.
Justification is a result of obedience unto faith. I’m not sure what your not understanding. We cannot be justified by works alone. But our faith with our works is what justifies us. As is given the example in
Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Jas 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
Jas 2:23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
Jas 2:25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
Jas 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
Anyone who counts on attaining and preserving justification can have no assurance.
This is simply not true. I have assurance that if I remain faithful to God and follow Him, that I am saved. My assurance is firm. I know that He WILL DO exactly as He promises to those WHO OBEY and to those WHO DO NOT.
Which is why there is a hell.
A
Always_For_Him
Guest
This thread will close soon, when it does will you please continue this discussion on the part II?
Here is the link:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=324962
Here is the link:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=324962
- Status