Protestants: how do you know that your interpretation of the Bible is the right one?

[christian1]

To Humble_in_doubt

Doesn’t it mean you really don’t have faith? If you think you might lose your faith then you logically can’t have a complete faith now can you? This is what moral assurance means to me anyway

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To have faith is to believe. If I said to you, “Joe” (I know that’s not your name) I’m going to give you five dollars if you do such and such for me."

Now, if you believe me, or have faith in me, that I will perform what I say, you can do that which I ask and have assurance that I will fulfill that which I have said, correct?

You can also be assured that if you do not do as I have asked, then I am not obligated to do that which I have said, correct?

This is a matter of not only believing that God wants to save us and wants us saved, it is a matter of believing what He said concerning the conditions one must meet to attain it. He didn’t have to offer us salvation but He did. But we cannot deny that there are conditions to this salvation that must be met.

To believe in what the bible says about these conditions does not make us unsure of our salvation. It makes it CLEAR as to how to attain it.

It makes it CLEAR as to how we are to REMAIN in Him.

We should be assured there is a Hell and certain ones will go there. We should be assured as to what qualifies us to go to Hell as what qualifies us to go to Heaven. The thing that we are assured of is this…that if we obey God and accept His plan of salvation unto obedience, we are surely His and belong to Him. We can also be assured that if we do not, Hell awaits us. These are our assurances. God is offering His hand of salvation through His son by grace, we can accept it along with it’s promises and conditions, or we can reject it. It’s up to us and this is our assurance.

We are as much assured of Hell as we are of Heaven. Assurance should not mean that no matter what we do, we go to Heaven. Assurance means that we KNOW God that if we do not obey Him as the conditions require, that we do not get the promises He offers. It is our choice. We don’t have to accept His deal, but if we do, we must comply with His laws, His ways, for they are HOLY and RIGHTEOUS and PROFITABLE to us.

This is what perfect faith looks like. We are all called to this perfect faith. But we do not all answer this call.

 

[Howie01]

elvisman:

Your problem is that you don’t know the difference between justification and salvation. Justification is our transformation from the state of unrepentant unrighteousness to a state of holiness and sonship of God. We can still sin (and do) and can still be cut off.

Salvation is when we are finally sanctified – final liberation from the evils of this world.

There is no difference between justification and salvation, elvisman—those He justified HE ALSO glorified (Rom 8:30).

elvisman:

Apparently, you have no idea what “Hope” is. Hope is the desire of something together with the expectation of obtaining it
If I have a million dollars coming to me because of a service I provided – I have hope that the contract will be fulfilled and that I’ll be paid as promised.
If I have the million dollars in my pocket (certainty) after being paid, I no longer HOPE for it because I HAVE it.

Biblical hope is complete confidence in God and His promises. It’s not the hope-so hope you seem to have.

elvisman:

Finally, about Romans 11. Tell me something, Howie – who is Paul writing to in Romans? He is writing to the Christians in Rome.

In Romans 11, he is warning them about losing favor with God, lest they be cut off as Israel was.
If you can’t see this, then you have no business exegeting scripture.

Not so, elvisman.**Romans 11:25-2725 For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery—so that you will not be wise in your own estimation—that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in;

26 and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written, “The Deliverer will come from Zion, He will remove ungodliness from Jacob.”

27 “This is My covenant with them, When I take away their sins.”
**That’s the reason for Paul’s writing what he wrote in Romans 11—context, elvisman, context.

The Gentiles are brought in on that Covenant God made with Israel. :yup:

elvisman:

Truly, there are none so blind as they who refuse to see . . .

My friend, ISTM, you’re the blind wanting to mislead the sighted, IMO.

 

[christian1]

To Jerry

i don’t understand where you coming from my friend but if you believe you can lose your salvation fine. in your quote of Scripture above that i’ve highlighted in bold letters states it very clearly of those who are saved will not perish.

God bless you

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How can you say, I don’t understand where I’m coming from? Do you not see that all that I have put before you is biblical? Are you saying, you don’t know where those who wrote the remaining scriptures I posted are coming from? I’m not sure what you don’t understand. The scriptures that I gave completely contradict your doctrine. And that is merely a small portion of them.

You cannot simply ignore these other scriptures Jerry. You must reckon them with your belief, or your belief is not biblical. For if your belief cannot be embraced with the remaining scriptures, you have simply created a doctrine that is false.

 

[MrS]

Obedience is involved, but not perfection as Catholics believe. Nothing can separate the justified from the love of God.

When one is regenerate he dies to the law, therefore, the consequences of the law can no longer harm him (Rom 7:1-6).

A common protestant misconception. Paul is both very clear that the list of sins he gives are not what separates us from God.

He is also very clear that it is US who separate ourselves from God. Hence, our justification is ongoing, and we must endure till the end. Nothing external is stronger than God’s desire that we come to him. He will forgive ALL of those transgressions when we repent. And repentance, due to our ongoing sinfullness, is also a continuing gift from God… IF we accept it. Again Paul never says or implies that we, ourselves, with free will, can never be separated from God.

 

[christian1]

To Howie

It’s the final destination of the fallen angelic hosts, and those humans who disobey the command to repent and believe.

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Perhaps I have been misinformed about your doctrine. I had heard that God had pre chosen people to be saved.

What does your doctrine really say about that? Are the ones that will be saved predestined? If so, how are they predestined?

 

[MrS]

To Howie

It’s the final destination of the fallen angelic hosts, and those humans who disobey the command to repent and believe.

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Perhaps I have been misinformed about your doctrine. I had heard that God had pre chosen people to be saved.

What does your doctrine really say about that? Are the ones that will be saved predestined? If so, how are they predestined?

The Catholic Doctrine and teachings of what you suggest are not so. That is Calvin speaking.

Certainly God knows the destination of all of us But to say that Has pre-chosen people to be saved would also imply He has chosen people to not be saved.

Perhaps the Judas example would help. Did God chose Judas to be not saved? No, God creates all things for good. Man has the free will to reject. Only man. God did not create Judas to be not saved. For if Judas did what God wanted him to do, then he was obedient and should be saved by doing what he was created for ? Dumb huh?

Don’t be boxed in on predestination like Calvin is. Are we predestined…?? in so far as God knows what our response will be…yes. As far as God determining what our response will be … no. He gives us free will… so that our choice to love Him will mean so much more! OSAS denies this gift by suggesting that a point-in-time decision by us eliminates the future possibility of rejecting God, perhaps re-accepting Him, rejecting Him again etc…

We see this in the life of David. Many Protestants don’t or won’t accept that.

 

[Howie01]

MrS:

A common protestant misconception. Paul is both very clear that the list of sins he gives are not what separates us from God.

What list of sins?

MrS:

He is also very clear that it is US who separate ourselves from God.

Paul says that no "created thing" can separate us from the love of God in Christ (Rom 8:39).

Are you a "created thing," MrS?

MrS:

Hence, our justification is ongoing, and we must endure till the end.

Sanctification is ongoing:** Hebrews 10:1414 For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.**Those being sanctified Jesus has perfected continually.

MrS:

Nothing external is stronger than God’s desire that we come to him. He will forgive ALL of those transgressions when we repent. And repentance, due to our ongoing sinfullness, is also a continuing gift from God… IF we accept it. Again Paul never says or implies that we, ourselves, with free will, can never be separated from God.

IYO.

 

[Howie01]

The Catholic Doctrine and teachings of what you suggest are not so. That is Calvin speaking.

Certainly God knows the destination of all of us But to say that Has pre-chosen people to be saved would also imply He has chosen people to not be saved.

Perhaps the Judas example would help. Did God chose Judas to be not saved? No, God creates all things for good. Man has the free will to reject. Only man. God did not create Judas to be not saved. For if Judas did what God wanted him to do, then he was obedient and should be saved by doing what he was created for ? Dumb huh?

Don’t be boxed in on predestination like Calvin is. Are we predestined…?? in so far as God knows what our response will be…yes. As far as God determining what our response will be … no. He gives us free will… so that our choice to love Him will mean so much more! OSAS denies this gift by suggesting that a point-in-time decision by us eliminates the future possibility of rejecting God, perhaps re-accepting Him, rejecting Him again etc…

We see this in the life of David. Many Protestants don’t or won’t accept that.

Predestination of some to eternal blessedness is a Catholic dogma which must be believed de fide.

 

[elvisman]

There is no difference between justification and salvation, elvisman—those He justified HE ALSO glorified (Rom 8:30).

Biblical hope is complete confidence in God and His promises. It’s not the hope-so hope you seem to have.

Not so, elvisman.
Romans 11:25-27
25 For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery—so that you will not be wise in your own estimation—that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in;
26 and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written, “The Deliverer will come from Zion, He will remove ungodliness from Jacob.”
27 “This is My covenant with them, When I take away their sins.”
That’s the reason for Paul’s writing what he wrote in Romans 11—context, elvisman, context.

The Gentiles are brought in on that Covenant God made with Israel. :yup:

My friend, ISTM, you’re the blind wanting to mislead the sighted, IMO.

No** difference between justification and salvation? Then there is no need to continue this conversation because you obviously haven’t a clue as to what you’re taking about. BUT, I’ll offer a few thoughts.**

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R.C. Sproul** – probably the most respected of all living Protestant theologians - has this to say about the difference:
“Salvation is completed at the point of our death (often called “glorification”). ***
Justification is a legal or forensic declaration of not guilty and the merits of Christ’s perfect life are credited to us.”*

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If he’s wrong, which Protestants are right? Can you answer that?

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As for Romans 11 - look at the red text above in your post. Not ALL of israel will be save - but the new Israel, the new Jersusalem spoken of in Rev. 21:2. One that includes the gentile believers - the rest of US.
Paul is speaking to ROMAN Christians - not Jews - and is using Israel as a warning.

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Lastly - your comment about Biblical hope vs. hope – it’s the** same****. Hope is hope and nothing else – just as truth is truth. Show me the source for your definition and maybe we’ll talk. Until then, you’re blowing hot air because now you’re sinking deeper into the dense mire of relativism – you’re truth vs. my truth. **As I already stated - truth is truth.

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[Howie01]

elvisman:

No difference between justification and salvation? Then there is no need to continue this conversation because you obviously haven’t a clue as to what you’re taking about. BUT, I’ll offer a few thoughts.

R.C. Sproul – probably the most respected of all living Protestant theologians - has this to say about the difference:
“Salvation is completed at the point of our death (often called “glorification”).
Justification is a legal or forensic declaration of not guilty and the merits of Christ’s perfect life are credited to us.”

If he’s wrong, which Protestants are right? Can you answer that?

You also read RC out of context, elvisman, I know first hand, that RC agrees with me, and not with you.

elvisman:

As for Romans 11 - look at the red text above in your post. Not ALL of israel will be save - but the new Israel, the new Jersusalem spoken of in Rev. 21:2. One that includes the gentile believers - the rest of US.
Paul is speaking to ROMAN Christians - not Jews - and is using Israel as a warning.

Paul is not using Israel as a warning, but is explaining why the Roman Christians ought not to boast that they’re better than Israel—had there been no secure promise to Israel, there would have been no secure promise to Gentiles. Read the chapter in its context.

elvisman:

Lastly - your comment about Biblical hope vs. hope – it’s the same. Hope is hope and nothing else – just as truth is truth. Show me the source for your definition and maybe we’ll talk. Until then, you’re blowing hot air because now you’re sinking deeper into the dense mire of relativism – you’re truth vs. my truth. As I already stated - truth is truth.

IYO.

 

[josie_L]

Obedience is involved, but not perfection as Catholics believe. Nothing can separate the justified from the love of God.

When one is regenerate he dies to the law, therefore, the consequences of the law can no longer harm him (Rom 7:1-6).

You have not answered the question Howie, if obedience is involved and/or is a condition of faith, then what happens to one who is disobedient (and promised to follow Christ) to the ways of the Lord if by faith we are justified?

P.S. I am asking you to uphold your belief in OSAS, not to question the stance of the CC.

 

[josie_L]

IYO.

No, not just in his opinion, but mine too, Hope is hope, Howie, whether weak or strong, whether confident or not, it is always hope.

 

[Howie01]

You have not answered the question Howie, if obedience is involved and/or is a condition of faith, then what happens to one who is disobedient (and promised to follow Christ) to the ways of the Lord if by faith we are justified?

I have answered the question, Josie.

God justifies sinners. Entrance into heaven is not based upon the perfection of the redeemed sinner, but upon the perfection of Christ.

 

[christian1]

MrS part 1

you said:
We have placed marriage as a sacrament in the Church. If you are married, I would assume that you value that union as union with God.

However, a visible sign of that union is your wedding ring… truly a pagan symbol. Perhaps you should remove it.

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I suppose the origin of what is practiced in the catholic church and other churches is irrelevent. What should be considered however are the doctrines being taught for salvation.

I had posted once and was rebuked for not listing who had written it. I really had hoped to get some feed back on the issue so that you would have a fair chance to dispute these claims concerning the changing dogma in the Catholic Church. I’ll post it again with the reference this time.

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Where does the As to doctrines and dogmas… do you understand the difference? Do you understand what a Catholic discipline is? Or a Catholic tradition? Or do you, like many others, lump anything you may not understand , and anything which you do not practice, into the same arena of “pagan”? Have you any sense of the Jewish roots of Catholicism?

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I can honestly say that I did not know but am learning the differences between doctrine an dogma and discipline. I do not have a full understanding yet and so am continuing in my search. I will probably be more informed than most catholics although I am not a catholic. But then, I don’t really hold to any denomination but that of the scriptures. I still consider myself just ‘a christian’ and I do believe that I am grafted into the body of Christ by the power that belongs to the Holy Spirit. I do understand that God uses men and people to accomplish this as well, but I also know that He is by no means restricted to such when it comes to the sincere prayers of a sinner as myself, redeemed by His mercy and grace and dwelling in the sanctuary of His Holy Temple, which is my heart, body and spirit.

As for these dogma questions I will post them now: Please feel free to enlighten me of any errors I should be aware of.

bible.ca/cath-one-true-church.htm

“If only one instance could be given in which the Church ceased to teach a doctrine of faith which had been previously held, that single instance would be the death blow of her claim to infallibility.” (Cardinal Gibbons, The Faith of Our Fathers, p74)
“if it be not identical in belief, in government etc., with the primitive Church, then it is not the Church of Christ.” (Catholic Facts, 27)
“Catholic controversialists soon proved to the Protestants that to be logical and consistent they must admit unwritten tradition.” (Catholic Encyclopedia, Vol. XV, p. 7)

Before 1965: No Salvation outside the Catholic church!

Pope Pelagius II (A.D. 578 - 590)

“Consider the fact that whoever has not been in the peace and unity of the Church cannot have the Lord. …Although given over to flames and fires, they burn, or, thrown to wild beasts, they lay down their lives, there will not be (for them) that crown of faith but the punishment of faithlessness. …Such a one can be slain, he cannot be crowned. …[If] slain outside the Church, he cannot attain the rewards of the Church.” (Denzinger 246-247)

Pope Saint Gregory the Great (A.D. 590 - 604)

“Now the holy Church universal proclaims that God cannot be truly worshipped saving within herself, asserting that all they that are without her shall never be saved.” (Moralia)

Pope Innocent III (A.D. 1198 - 1216)

“Indeed, there is but one universal Church of the faithful outside of which no one at all is saved.” (Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council, 1215; Denz. 151)

“With our hearts we believe and with our lips we confess but one Church, not that of the heretics, but the Holy Roman Catholic and Apostolic Church, outside which we believe that no one is saved.” (Denzinger 423)

Pope Boniface VIII in his Bull Unam Sanctam issued in 1302:

“We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.” (Denz. 469) [note: This definition (de fide definita) seems unanswerable, but the liberals boldly claim that this is not a definition intended for the universal Church, but only a pronouncement meant to deal with the local problem of Philip the Fair. But when Philip demanded of Pope Clement V, the first Avignon Pope, that he withdraw Unam Sanctam, Pope Clement did not do so, but issued the Brief Meruit February 1, 1306, which despite its extremely conciliatory tone, clearly states that Unam Sanctam contains a “definition”:] “That is why we do not wish or intend that any prejudice be engendered for that king and kingdom by the definition and declaration of our predecessor Pope Boniface VIII of happy memory, which began by the words Unam Sanctam.” (51 Corpus Juris Canonici, (Extravag. commun., lib. V, tit. VII, cap. 2) ed. Freiburg, Vol. II, p. 1300.)

Pope Leo X reaffirmed the teaching of Boniface VIII: (1512-1517)

“Where the necessity of salvation is concerned all the faithful of Christ must be subject to the Roman Pontiff, as we are taught by Holy Scripture, the testimony of the holy fathers, and by that constitution of our predecessor of happy memory, Boniface VIII, which begins Unam Sanctam.” (Pope Leo X, Fifth Lateran Council (1512-1517) Conciliorum Oecumenicorum Decreta, Edidit Centro di Documentazione, Instituto per Science Religiose, Herder, Bologna, 1962, no. 40, pp. 619, 620.)

Pope Leo XII (A.D. 1823 - 1829)

“We profess that there is no salvation outside the Church. …For the Church is the pillar and ground of the truth. With reference to those words Augustine says: `If any man be outside the Church he will be excluded from the number of sons, and will not have God for Father since he has not the Church for mother.’” (Encyclical, Ubi Primum)

Pope Pius IX (A.D. 1846 - 1878)

“It must be held by faith that outside the Apostolic Roman Church, no one can be saved; that this is the only ark of salvation; that he who shall not have entered therein will perish in the flood.” (Denzinger 1647)

Pope Leo XIII: (A.D. 1878 - 1903)

 

[christian1]

part 2

Pope Leo XIII: (A.D. 1878 - 1903)

“By the ministry of this Church so gloriously founded by Him, He willed to perpetuate the mission which He had Himself received from the Father; and on the one hand, having put within her all the means necessary for man’s salvation, on the other hand, He formally enjoined upon men the duty of obeying His Church as Himself, and religiously taking her as a guide of their whole lives. “He that heareth you, heareth Me; he that despiseth you, despiseth me.” (Luke 10:16) Therefore, it is from the Church alone that the law of Christ must be asked: and, consequently, if for man Christ is the way, the Church, too, is the way, the former of Himself and by His nature, the latter by delegation and communication of power. Consequently, all who wish to reach salvation outside the Church, are mistaken as to the way and are engaged in a vain effort.” (Pope Leo XIII, Encyclical, Tametsi, November 1, 1900; Papal Teachings: The Church, Benedictine Monks of Solesmes, St. Paul Editions, Boston, 1962, par. 647.)

“This is our last lesson to you: receive it, engrave it in your minds, all of you: by God’s commandment salvation is to be found nowhere but in the Church; the strong and effective instrument of salvation is none other than the Roman Pontificate.” (Pope Leo XIII, Allocution for the 25th anniversary of his election, February 20, 1903; Papal Teachings: The Church, Benedictine Monks of Solesmes, St. Paul Editions, Boston, 1962, par. 653.Encyclical, Annum Ingressi Sumus)

“He scatters and gathers not who gathers not with the Church and with Jesus Christ, and all who fight not jointly with Him and with the Church are in very truth contending against God.” (Pope Leo XIII, Encyclical, Sapientiae Christianae)

Pope St. Pius X: A.D. 1903 - 1914)

"Strong in this faith, unshakably established on this Peter, We turn the eyes of Our soul both to the heavy obligations of this holy primacy and at the same time to the strength divinely imparted to Our heart. In peace We wait for those to be silent who are loudly proclaiming that the Catholic Church has had her day, that her teaching is hopelessly reactionary, that she will soon be reduced either to conformity with the data of science and a civilization without God, or to withdrawal from the society of men. And while We wait, it is Our duty to recall to everyone, great and small, as the Holy Pontiff Gregory did in ages past, the absolute necessity which is ours to have recourse to this Church to effect our eternal salvation, to obtain peace, and even prosperity in our life here below. "That is why, to use the words of the Holy Pontiff, we say: “Make firm the progress of your souls, as you have begun to do, with the firmness of this rock: on it, as you know, Our Redeemer founded the Church throughout the world, so that sincere hearts, guiding their steps by her, would not stray on to the wrong road.” (Pope St. Pius X, Encyclical, Jucunda sane, March 12, 1904, Papal Teachings: The Church, Benedictine Monks of Solesmes, St. Paul Editions, Boston, 1962, par. 668.)

Pope Pius XI:

“Furthermore, in this one Church of Christ no man can be or remain who does not accept, recognize and obey the authority and supremacy of Peter and his legitimate successors. Did not the ancestors of those who are now entangled in the errors of Photius and the reformers, obey the Bishop of Rome, the chief shepherd of souls? Alas their children left the home of their fathers, but it did not fall to the ground and perish for ever, for it was supported by God. Let them therefore return to their common Father, who, forgetting the insults previously heaped on the Apostolic See, will receive them in the most loving fashion. For if, as they continually state, they long to be united with Us and ours, why do they not hasten to enter the Church, ‘the Mother and mistress of all Christ’s faithful?’ Let them hear Lactantius crying out: ‘The Catholic Church is alone in keeping the true worship. This is the fount of truth, this is the house of Faith, this is the temple of God: if any man enter not here, or if any man go forth from it, he is a stranger to the hope of life and salvation. Let none delude himself with obstinate wrangling. For life and salvation are here concerned, which will be lost and entirely destroyed, unless their interests are carefully and assiduously kept in mind.’” (Pope Pius XI, Encyclical, Mortalium animos, January 6, 1928, The Papal Encyclicals, Claudia Carlen, I.H.M., McGrath Publishing Co., 1981, pp. 317, 318.)

Pope Pius XII: (A.D. 1939 - 1958)

"Nor against this may one argue that the primacy of jurisdiction established in the Church gives such a Mystical Body two heads. For Peter in virtue of his primacy is only Christ’s Vicar; so that there is only one chief Head of this Body, namely Christ, Who never ceases Himself to guide the Church invisible, though at the same time He rules it visibly, through him who is His representative on earth, after His glorious Ascension into heaven this Church rested not on Him alone, but on Peter too, its visible foundation stone. That Christ and His Vicar constitute one only Head is the solemn teaching of Our predecessor of immortal memory Boniface VIII in the Apostolic Letter Unam Sanctam; and his successors have never ceased to repeat the same. “They, therefore, walk in the path of dangerous errors who believe that they can accept Christ as the head of the Church, while not adhering loyally to His Vicar on earth. They have taken away the visible bonds of unity and left the Mystical Body of the Redeemer so obscured and so maimed, that those who are seeking the haven of eternal salvation can neither see it nor find it.” (Pope Pius XII, encyclical Mystici Corporis which appeared in 1943; The Papal Encyclicals 1939-1958, Claudia Carlen, I.H.M., McGrath Publishing Co., 1981, p. 45.)

 

[christian1]

“By divine mandate the interpreter and guardian of the Scriptures, and the depository of Sacred Tradition living within her, the Church alone is the entrance to salvation: She alone, by herself, and under the protection and guidance of the Holy Spirit, is the source of truth.” (Pope Pius XII, Allocution to the Gregorian, October 17, 1953)

“O Mary Mother of Mercy and Refuge of Sinners! We beseech thee to look with pitying eyes on poor heretics and schismatics. Do thou, who art the Seat of Wisdom, enlighten the minds wretchedly enfolded in the darkness of ignorance and sin, that they may clearly recognize the Holy, Catholic, Roman Church to be the only true Church of Jesus Christ, outside of which neither sanctity nor salvation can be found. Call them to the unity of the one fold, granting them the grace to believe every truth of our holy faith and to submit themselves to the Supreme Roman Pontiff, the Vicar of Jesus Christ on earth, that, thus being united with us by the sweet chains of charity, there may soon be but one fold under one and the same Shepherd; and may we all thus, O Glorious Virgin, exultantly sing forever: ‘Rejoice, O Virgin Mary! Thou alone hast destroyed all heresies in the whole world!’ Amen.” (Pope Pius XII, The Raccolta, Benzinger Brothers, Boston, 1957, No. 626.)

Pope Gregory XVI (A.D. 1831 - 1846):

“It is not possible to worship God truly except in Her; all who are outside Her will not be saved.” (Encyclical, Summo Jugiter)

Pope Benedict XV (A.D. 1914 - 1922):

“Such is the nature of the Catholic faith that it does not admit of more or less, but must be held as a whole, or as a whole rejected: This is the Catholic faith, which unless a man believe faithfully and firmly, he cannot be saved.” (Encyclical, Ad Beatissimi Apostolorum)

Pope John XXIII:

“The Saviour Himself is the door of the sheepfold: ‘I am the door of the sheep.’ Into this fold of Jesus Christ, no man may enter unless he be led by the Sovereign Pontiff; and only if they be united to him can men be saved, for the Roman Pontiff is the Vicar of Christ and His personal representative on earth.” (Pope John XXIII, homily to the Bishops assisting at his coronation on November 4, 1958Papal Teachings: The Church, Benedictine Monks of Solesmes, Boston, St. Paul Editions, 1962, par. 1556.)

“And you, venerable brothers, will not fail, in your teaching, to recall to the flocks entrusted to you these grand and salutary truths; we cannot render to God the devotion that is due Him and that is pleasing to Him nor is it possible to be united to Him except through Jesus Christ; and it is not possible to be united to Jesus Christ except in the Church and through the Church, His Mystical Body, and, finally, it is not possible to belong to the Church except through the bishops, successors of the Apostles, united to the Supreme Pastor, the successor of Peter.” (Pope John XXIII, Address on the creation of three new dioceses on Taiwan, L’Osseratore Romano, June 29, 1961.)

Pope John Paul I:

“According to the words of St. Augustine, who takes up an image dear to the ancient Fathers, the ship of the Church must not fear, because it is guided by Christ and by His Vicar. 'Although the ship is tossed about, it is still a ship. It alone carries the disciples and receives Christ. Yes, it is tossed on the sea, but, without it, one would immediately perish.” (Sermon, 75,3; PL 28, 475) Only in the Church is salvation. ‘Without it one perishes.’ (Pope John Paul I, First Allocution, August 27, 1978, L’Osservatore Romano, August 28,29, 1978.)

“It is difficult to accept some truths, because the truths of faith are of two kinds: some pleasant, others unpalatable to our spirit. For example, it is pleasant to hear that God has so much tenderness for us, even more tenderness than a mother for her children. Other truths, on the contrary, are hard to accept. God must punish if I resist. That is not agreeable, but it is clear that Jesus and the Church are the same thing: indissoluble, inseparable. Christ and the Church are only one thing. It is not possible to say: ‘I believe in Jesus, I accept Jesus, but I do not accept the Church.’ When the poor Pope, when the bishops, the priests, propose the doctrine, they are merely helping Christ. It is not our doctrine; it is Christ’s: we must merely guard it and present it.” (General Audience, September 13, 1978; Quoted in The Message of John Paul I, Daughters of St. Paul, Boston, 1978, pp. 106,107.)

 

[MrS]

I have answered the question, Josie.

God justifies sinners. Entrance into heaven is not based upon the perfection of the redeemed sinner, but upon the perfection of Christ.

Hoopie, I don’t have to be perfect to get into heaven… the Bible got it wrong.

Christ redeemed us. He redeemed us all. However, our definitions of redeem seem to be quite different

Christ’s passion and death allowed for the gates of heaven to be reopened. He appeased the Father in a way we could not.

His death allows us to share in His inheiritance. But nothing imperfect enters those gates of heaven… nothing that is imperfect.

We are justified, made right with God, when we repent and accept His gift, His inheiritance. But like David, or like the prodigal son, we CAN lose that inheiritance. And like David, or the prodigal son, we can again repent and regain favor with God. Not of their sins - adultry, murder etc - is what separates us from God… it is US turning our back on God through those sins… and it is US repenting of those sins that brings us back to God’s favor.

It is an ongoing process and struggle because we are still sinners when justified. It is the sanctification part of justification that continues.

Most of these posts are pointless… our separated brethren not only left the sheepfold, but have developed different meanings to words used in the Catholic Church.

Reminds me of the problems here with illegals… they choose to live outside the laws of the country, still want the benefits… and expect us to learn their language on top of it all. They are still God’s children, and He loves them all. They deserve our love too. But for a lot of various reasons, they break the law, and thus break away …
(now I better hide … )

.

 

[christian1]

To Howie again:

I see your busy. I just didn’t want you to forget my question in the mix.

I’ll post it again.

To Howie

It’s the final destination of the fallen angelic hosts, and those humans who disobey the command to repent and believe.

---

Perhaps I have been misinformed about your doctrine. I had heard that God had pre chosen people to be saved.

What does your doctrine really say about that? Are the ones that will be saved predestined? If so, how are they predestined?

 

[MrS]

the Church alone is the entrance to salvation: She alone, by herself, and under the protection and guidance of the Holy Spirit, is the source of truth." (Pope Pius XII, Allocution to the Gregorian, October 17, 1953)

…

, enlighten the minds wretchedly enfolded in the darkness of ignorance and sin, that they may clearly recognize the Holy, Catholic, Roman Church to be the only true Church of Jesus Christ, outside of which neither sanctity nor salvation can be found. Call them to the unity of the one fold, granting them the grace to believe every truth of our holy faith and to submit themselves to the Supreme Roman Pontiff, the Vicar of Jesus Christ on earth, that, thus being united with us by the sweet chains of charity, there may soon be but one fold under one and the same Shepherd; and may we all thus, O Glorious Virgin, exultantly sing forever: ‘Rejoice, O Virgin Mary! Thou alone hast destroyed all heresies in the whole world!’ Amen." (Pope Pius XII, The Raccolta, Benzinger Brothers, Boston, 1957, No. 626.)

“Such is the nature of the Catholic faith that it does not admit of more or less, but must be held as a whole, or as a whole rejected: This is the Catholic faith, which unless a man believe faithfully and firmly, he cannot be saved.” (Encyclical, Ad Beatissimi Apostolorum)

.)

Rather than repost all that you offered… You are correct. The statements declare that only the Church founded by Christ is the entity He gave us to guide us to heaven.

The Church further teaches that one can reach heaven, while not formally a Catholic… but only if that one does not see the Truth and then reject it. God judges the heart. And all hearts have an inborn yearning to know love and serve God. One hardens his own heart when he rejects, bit by bit, the Truth that is Christ Himself. Invinceable ignorance thus is not damnation.

Example, those in John 6 were said to have walked away. They were not said to have not understood or did not hear. They walked away. When that happens, it is by free choice, and of course God allows for this to happen… otherwise grace is not grace.

so.

I would suggest two items…
one brief… catholic.com/thisrock/2005/0512fea3.asp

one not so brief…
amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/193170936X/ref=nosim/xangacom

which may aleviate your concerns. It offers the deeper understanding … not the harse understanding of Fr Finney et al.

 

[christian1]

More to MrS

No Pope was considered infallible until 1870 AD

Pope Adrian VI - It is certain that the Pontiff … may err in those things which pertain to faith.
Pope Paul IV - I do not doubt that I and my predecessors may sometimes have erred.
Archbishop Purcell said in his debate with Alexander Campbell in Cincinnati on 1-13-1837: “the bishop of Rome, though he was not believed to be infallible. Neither is he now. No enlightened Catholic holds the pope’s infallibility of be an article of faith. I do not; and none of my brethren, that I know of, do. The Catholic believes the pope … to be as liable to error, as almost any other man in the universe. Man is man, and no man is infallible, either in doctrine or morals.”

Catachism changed after 1870 AD:

“A Doctrinal Catechism,” by Keenan, bearing the Imprimatur (official sanction) of Scotch Roman Catholic bishops, pre 1870: Must not Catholics believe the pope himself to be infallible? This is a Protestant invention; it is no article of the Catholic faith; no decision of his can oblige, under pain of heresy, unless it is received and enforced by the teaching body, that is, the bishops of the church. After 1870, this Q&A was dropped from Keenan’s catechism.

Roman Catholics and Eastern Greek Orthodox churches accuse the other of false doctrines both base upon tradition:

The Catholics reject several of the specific canons of the early ecumenical councils, but the orthodox accept them as inspired.
Catholics and Orthodox disagree on the dates of Christmas and Easter. While the Orthodox church claims council at Nice was inspired, yet is rejects the canons of Nicea on the date of Easter which the Catholics accept.
The Catholics teach purgatory, yet the Orthodox reject it.
Universal papal jurisdiction was a rather large dogfight in 588-606 AD.
Although the Orthodox reject Papal infallibility, the decisions of the orthodox synods are considered infallible.
The Immaculate Conception is utterly rejected by the Orthodox.
The orthodox baptized by full immersion (thrice), the Catholics sprinkle.
Orthodox Church, priests can marry, but Catholics priests cannot.
The Roman Catholic church introduced instrumental music no earlier than the 7th century and the Orthodox church has never used instrumental music, but like the apostles, sang without instrument.
In Catholic communion, the cup is withheld from the members, while the Orthodox float the “crouton looking” bread cubes in the wine. Catholics believe the bread and wine (transubstantiation) become the literal body of Christ when the priest says, “this is my body”. The Orthodox disagrees and says the change takes place at prayer. Catholics use unleavened bread, while Orthodox use leavened bread. Orthodox must keep a ridged schedule of fasts in order to have communion every week, but the most common practice is a minimum of four times a year during the four Orthodox Lents "Christmas, Easter, Peter and Paul, The virgin Mary. Catholics on the other hand, need not eat the hour before, to have communion every day. In the end, Orthodox offer communion weekly and Catholics daily. In practice most Orthodox laity have communion four times year and Catholics weekly. So which of these two traditions is the one the apostles used? All this proves that they have no valid “apostolic tradition”, otherwise they would all agree! They differ on the frequency of communion, the fasting requirements and the actual method of partaking.
Transubstantiation is a false doctrine that says the bread and grape juice of the Lord’s supper actually molecularly change to become the flesh and blood of Jesus. Of course this old doctrine was formulated before the advent of molecular microscopes which see no change. For Catholics the “Transubstantiation” occurs when the priest says the words, “this is my body”. For Orthodox the change occurs when the priest offers the prayer of thanks.
The “Filioque” scandal: Following the Nicene creed, the Orthodox Church believed the Holy Spirit proceeded from the Father alone. Then in 1054 AD the Roman church added to the wording of the Nicene creed “And the Son” or the “Filioque.” The Roman church believed the Holy Spirit proceeded from BOTH the Father and the Son.
Orthodox keeps the original Nicene Creed, accepted by the Universal Church, East and West, during the first millennium without the addition of “And the Son” or the “Filioque.” It accepts, on faith, Christ’s words in the Gospel, that the Father is the Unoriginate Source of the Life of the Trinity, with the Only-Begotten Son and the Holy Spirit Proceeding from the Father Alone. We cannot know how the Begetting of the Son and the Proceeding of the Spirit from the same Father is different, only that it is and this distinguishes the two Persons.