Protestants: how do you know that your interpretation of the Bible is the right one?

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people bickering over irrelevant matters when the thread has to do with interpretations, you guys please continue to muse me.

Praise Jesus!!

my father just got out of surgery and all well, Thank God.
 
people bickering over irrelevant matters when the thread has to do with interpretations, you guys please continue to muse me.

Praise Jesus!!

my father just got out of surgery and all well, Thank God.
What is irrelevant?
Sounds like you’re chomping at the bit to get into an argument.:rolleyes:


**PS **
 
people bickering over irrelevant matters when the thread has to do with interpretations, you guys please continue to muse me.

Praise Jesus!!

my father just got out of surgery and all well, Thank God.
What is irrelevant?
Sounds like you’re chomping at the bit to get into an argument.:rolleyes:

PS - Glad to hear you father is doing well.👍
 
the bickering

i don’t want to argue, i know that catholics have their point of view and protestants have theirs as well. to argue these point are senseless, cause where does one find salvation?

baptists and pentecostals don’t see eye to eye on all minuet doctrinal differences and they’re both on the evangelical side of the spectrum. the list goes on and on so to argue on these issues is irrelevant.

what is the purpose of the Bible from cover to cover?

JESUS CHRIST!

God bless you
 
If you key in denominations you get a lot more information pertaining to white-led pentecostals, it’s only a matter of common sense and practicality that I should use it for my search.
And you got that many results but still could not give me two examples? I could Key in Catholics denominations and get thousands of results too, but that hardly proves each result is a denomination of Catholicism, wouldn’t you agree? Common sense and practicality say that every google result is not relevant.
It was to show you that even if you did not believe the stats given thus far, we are supposed to be one, holy catholic and apostolic, and this list is contrary to the will of God.
Your list listed LOTS of Catholic Denominations. IT proved in no way that you are more right than anyone else. It in no way confirmed that Barrett is right. Listing denominations is the weakest way to prove what you want to prove mainly cause most protestants already know that you are using false figures. If i find some site that makes up false stuff about Catholics and use it to prove some thesis about Catholics, you’d complain just as adamantly even if the thesis has weight on its own.
. Also, if you were quoting from World Christian Trends, why did you keep refering to Barrett?
Word Christian Trends is WRITTEN by Barrett!! Have you even glanced at the book?
**World Christian Trends
**
***World Christian Trends AD 30 - AD 2200. Interpreting the annual Christian megacensus. ***David Barrett and Todd Johnson. Pasadena: William Carey Library, 2001. 934p. CD included.
World Christian Trends is available separately or in a package with
the two volume World Christian Encyclopedia
For example, the RC was stated to have 236 denominations, however, when viewing each separate country in which the RC resided, the denomination always remained at 1.
Yes but realize that all Protestant denominations are also not found in only one country each, so just like Catholics they are found in multiple countries, making it silly to say that there are so many. as I showed dividing by that many countries would mean there are less than 200 denominations! I even said hey add a lot more cause all are not in every country… and it still is less than one thousand. even though you know this, you still simply subtract your 242 and do not apply the exact same logic to the other denominations listed! Why do you think that every Protestant denomination is only in one country each and Catholics are in all countries? There is no reason to believe that.
The problem I think you seem to have is your narrow view of what a denomination is.
I was going by the definitions given by the study we are discussing. You are not answering my questions but now suddenly jumping to other sources. But even in these other sources it STILL defines denomination as Groups under one authority… so then you claim a single individual church is a group of churches? that is making no sense. how is one = to a group? This isn’t as hard as you are making it out to be. Each individual church cannot be also a “Group of Churches.” You are an individual person can I now say josie is a class. No A class implies a group of people.

Independent individual churches cannot be denominations at all, because they are not united in a single legal and administrative body.
Don’t understand your reasoning.
My reasoning is that the definition as provided by Barrett, by the world christian encyclopedia and as by Webster ALL say that a denomination is a group under a single legal administrative body. If its not a group and its not under a single body then its not a denomination.
Yet again, you are wrong. You are oversimplifying the situation.
Give some details, answer some of my objections jsut saying “I dont get it, you are oversimplifying” doesnt give any proof that I am. I am quoting form the sources YOU are saying are true. If Im oversimplifying then so are all your sources.
It was to show you that even if you did not believe the stats given thus far, we are supposed to be one, holy catholic and apostolic, and this list is contrary to the will of God.
Ok So let me get this straight. Instead of saying “Having alot of denominations is contrary to the will of God” A position we could have discussed reasonably, you prefer to approach it by accusing Protestants unfairly of having 33,000 denominations, then saying that it isn’t unfair, and present with evidence that your source is not even saying we have 33,000 denominations in the first place you say welll what you wanted to prove is true anyhow? You credibility is gone. Why should I listen to you about this now when your facts are not accurate and you cant admit to it? Most of the time Ignore this and this is why… You are perfectly willing to use inaccurate info without verifying it to prove something that may or may not be true. I ahve no reason to believe you about anything if you are willing to spread any myth that sounds good to you.
I will give you a website, apart from Alpha and Omega, since they are pretty anti-catholic, it is where I derived a good portion of what I know concerning this issue:
Yeah Ive seen that site too, why don’t you try reading the source material… Like the book and excepts form the encyclopedia available free onlline?
 
If you can’t point to an infallible math teacher, how do you have any certainty that 2+2=4?

Eagerly awaiting your response. 🙂
I learned arithmetic from a competent teacher of arithmetic, that teacher was not a Pope however…
 
elvisman, did you notice I’ve been calling you evilsman? Sorry about that, but don’t they like look exactly the same? They must because you never said anything. It wasn’t until I asked myself…‘why would a good man want to be called evilsman’ that I thought to look closer. Or you just didn’t care one way or another.

Ok, well concerning the topic at hand. You first asked how I would feel about this if it were true.

It’s like, the point of contention here is so slight yet it’s the crack that has fractured the body of Christ. To p(name removed by moderator)oint this fracture properly will take careful communication. I’ll try this. If I live my life according to the written word and nothing more, what crime in Christs church have I committed? If I only concerned myself with spreading the gospel of Christ as Paul taught we are to do, how have I sinned? If Ipray only to God through his son, where have I gone astray? If I deem the mother of Jesus, as simply what the bible reveals of her, the earthly mother of Jesus and consider her my sister, what scripture have I violated?

My point is, the only place where I, as a protestant fail the catholic church is in dogma only. And my contention is, it is not I who have failed the church, but those who would add upon the Holy Word such things that prevent all men with the equal right to God’s love, grace and power, from receiving it simply because we do not support dogmas that are not found in scripture.

For instance, the word Catholic is not found in scripture. But I understand what it means, but I feel that I am a true catholic in the sense, I uphold to the orignal teachings of the first churches. The churches led by Paul and Peter who were true catholics in the sense did not have such dogmas as are there today. I, as a true catholic, do not appreciate the dogmas that usurp the origninal scriptures taught by the first popes.

I feel that we have gone astray, and it is time to go back to our first love. Christ alone. I feel that the catholic church has led the flock into idoloatry even though they pretend they are not. The scapulars and their power, the rosary and its power, the elevated and unbiblical position of Mary as co-redemptrix and evervirgin, the cannozation of men into sainthood on grounds unbiblical. These things are contrary to scripture and true catholics do not follow a man, whether or not he is in a religious position of authority, when that man begins to introduce to the pure church, such things that set itself against the written word. That’s why I no longer associate with the once true church. It has defiled itself.

It has exempted itself from error, even though Christ warned there would be and that we should be warned and take care not to be deceived from the origninal preachings of that time.

The gates of hell will not prevail against His church. But me calling attention to doctrines of men that are contrary to the written word of God is not the gates of hell prevailing, and neither is men creating doctrines of men contrary to the word of God considered the gates of hell prevailing. It will not prevail. For those who are willing to place the word of God as the ultimate authority by which to compare other doctrines created by man, will clearly see. Therefore the gates of hell will not prevail against such. But those who choose to believe that men eho have been given an authority and esteemed position in the body of Christ to guide and keep the flock are beyond corruption will not hear. But many will. And they will come out of this institution that has become filled with wolves in sheeps clothing and commit once again to the pure religion that was in place from the beginning. We will not be asked to pray rosarys for power or wear different scapulars bearing for themselves different powers. We will not be taught that we have need of praying to anyone but God through His son Jesus Christ as is seen throughout all of the Word of God and the former never seen.
 
the bickering

i don’t want to argue, i know that catholics have their point of view and protestants have theirs as well. to argue these point are senseless, cause where does one find salvation?

baptists and pentecostals don’t see eye to eye on all minuet doctrinal differences and they’re both on the evangelical side of the spectrum. the list goes on and on so to argue on these issues is irrelevant.

what is the purpose of the Bible from cover to cover?

JESUS CHRIST!

God bless you
Debating, sharing common beliefs and stating one’s opinions are what these forums are all about.

It’s not irrelevant when you consider that many non-Catholics come on these board with some pretty warped views on what the Catholic Church actually believes and teaches.

You’re right about bickering, though - it’s not healthy - but dabate sometimes is.
 
then please enlighten me with what the church teaches if one doesn’t keep the sacraments?
 
Can I just add my :twocents: to this “denominations” argument?

To me, it has always been a futile, unproductive discussion. As a Catholic, it doesn’t matter if there are 1 million protestant denominations, or just 1.

The question is…what exactly do we mean by denomination?

If we define it simply as “a name or designation”, then every single “church” out there that shares the same name is a denomination. Even all the Catholic ones that don’t have the same parish “names” would be a denomination.

Obviously, this is not what we mean by denomination. But the other definition isn’t that much better…

“a religious group, usually including many local churches, often larger than a sect”

This is closer to what we are all talking about, but it doesn’t clarify what constitutes a “group”. So, this is still way too vague.

The entire Catholic argument about the problem with the vast numbers of non-Catholic “denominations” is an attempt to somehow appeal to the problem of Christian disunity that exists among all non-Catholic groups. So, in that spirit, here is my definition of a “denomination”

Any Christian group who have, within their body of teaching, a different set of beliefs and practices regarding faith and morals, from another Christian group. Faith, in this context, means salvific doctrine and worship practices (i.e. baptism, and male-only priesthood). Morals, means arbitration on determining the sinful nature of any and all human actions (i.e. contraception, abortion, etc).

Now, within this definition of “denomination”, I would concede that the Catholic Church is a single undivided denomination, although Catholics don’t like the term “denomination” because it is a post-Reformation concept. As an aside, this definition also highlights the fact that there is no such thing as a non-denominational church, no matter how much the people of that church want to claim it.

Some Catholics erroneously claim that every church that is not Catholic is, in and of itself, a denomination. To me, this is speculative and too broad a generalization, and probably untrue. For example, I would certainly think that there are a significant number of individual churches which affiliate themselves with the title “Lutheran”, or “Methodist” etc. which do, in fact, share identical practices and beliefs, including all matters of salvific faith. Perhaps not all of them, but many. I would go so far as saying, if any church (or group), regardless of it’s official non-Catholic affiliation (baptist, quaker, presbyterian, etc) shares precisely the same teachings on faith and morals as any other non-Catholic church (or group), then they are part of the same, single denomination. So, what I’m emphasizing is that it’s not the title or the affiliation which makes one a denomination…rather it is the continuity and consistency of the faith and moral teachings.

So, how do we count these denominations? It’s harder than we think because you have to look at the precise teachings of each church, and even when you look hard, you have to look at specific significant teachings. The litmus test, as I see it, comes down to this…

do you teach something different from another group regarding…

what is required for salvation
what is immoral in God’s eyes

If you teach any part of these things differently than anyone else (even within your own affiliation), you are a separate denomination. If you can find other churches that teach it exactly like you, you and all of them are one denomination. One caveat, just simply teaching salvation and morals precisely like the Catholic Church does not unify you with her as part of that “denomination”. Apostolic succession must be demonstrated (i.e. the Orthodox churches which are “in communion” with the Church)

Finally, one of the big reasons Catholics don’t think non-Catholic churches are authentic is not just because we believe the Catholic Church is the only one verifiably linked back directly to the apostles and subsequently the early Church, and not only because The Church has no variance in teaching the above concepts…but also because no non-Catholic church has any regulating body to discern and arbitrate matters of Christian morality. This is also (even more so) true of the non-Catholic notion that “church” is limited to an invisible body of believers.

Bottomline, there are to be no denominations. The concept of “denomination” ceases to exist as soon as you have full unity of teaching. Even 2 churches on earth is 1 too many. Somehow, we all have to find a way to find, and enter into, ONE Church.
 
then please enlighten me with what the church teaches if one doesn’t keep the sacraments?
The Sacraments are there for OUR benefit - not God’s.
For example, Matt. 16:19, Matt. 18-18 and John 20:22-23 all show that the Church has the power to bind and loose - to firgive sin or to hold it bound on heaven and earth. If you choose to be in a state of sin which causes spiritual death (1 John 5:16) and have chosen not to seek what Jesus prescribed, then you have chosen to be cut off from God.

Same thing goes for receiving the Eucharist. Apparently, Jesus thought it was important enough to tell uis that we have no life within us unless we eat his flesh and drink his blood. (John 6:40-71). And, before you tell me this was only a metaphor - prove it.
 
i am not gonna prove anything other than my question remains unaswered
 
elvisman, did you notice I’ve been calling you evilsman? Sorry about that, but don’t they like look exactly the same? They must because you never said anything. It wasn’t until I asked myself…‘why would a good man want to be called evilsman’ that I thought to look closer. Or you just didn’t care one way or another.
No*** problem! Sort of gives a whole new meaning to the song, “Devil in Disguise” . . .***
For instance, the word Catholic is not found in scripture. But I understand what it means, but I feel that I am a true catholic in the sense, I uphold to the orignal teachings of the first churches. The churches led by Paul and Peter who were true catholics in the sense did not have such dogmas as are there today. I, as a true catholic, do not appreciate the dogmas that usurp the origninal scriptures taught by the first popes.
You** have laid out much to cover, but I’ll try to hit the main points.**

First of all, praying to saints is not worship. We pray for intercession – much like I would ask you – a flawed imperfect human being to pray for me. The only difference is that they have been mad perfect in God. these are not “dead people” as many Protestants assert. On the contrary, they are much mor alive than we are. for examples of this, I would point to the Transfiguration of Jesus (Matthew 17:1-9, Mark 9:2-8, Luke 9:28-36) and the “great cloud of witnesses” that Paul points to in Hebrews 12:1.

**As for the word, “Catholic” not being found in the bible – show me where “Trinity” and “Bible” are found. While we’re at it – show me where the Bible lists that are supposed to be in the Bible. You won’t find ****any ****of this but you will find the ****concepts **that were later named.

Much of what Protestants refuse to accept boils down to a question of Authority. Jesus gave ALL power ALL authority to His Church (Matt. 16:19, Matt. 18-18, John 16:13-15, John 20:22-23 to name a few places).
He prays for the UNITY of that Church – that they remain ONE - as He and the Father are ONE (John 17:11-12, 21-23)
He, then goes on to say that he would be with His Church until the end of time (Matt. 28:20).
Then, in Acts, he seals the deal by identifying his very self with his Church (Acts 9:4-5). This is why the Church CANNOT “defile itself”, as you assert. This is alsowhy the Church CANNOT “err”, as you state.

You say that if you “live your life according to the written word and nothing more, what crime in Christ’s Church, have you committed?” I would say, “None”. Because of you were to live your life this way, you would cease being Protestant and would have no choice by to be a Catholic.

PS
** - Please show me how the Church teaches idolatry, as you have stated.**
(By the way - if you’re wondering why some of your post is missing here it’s because I had to delete part of your text so I could fit mine.)
 
How can you rely only on the private interpretation of your church tradition?
JL: How can you rely on the Tradition the bible is the word of God? You only know it is the word of God, because that Tradition has been handed on to you and you accept that Tradition by faith.
Can you really trust the interpretation of people who tell you that the Bible says only they can interpret the Bible?
JL: No I do not really trust the interpretation of people, especially self. I do not rely on my understanding nor on that of any man, no matter how learned, who in the last analysis gives only his own opinion, although he could be right at times. I prefer the assurance of those Christ SENT to lead in all truth, not hit and miss truth, Jn16:13. I prefer to follow those, whom Christ has set over me, who have the gift of the Holy Spirit by laying on of hands in an unbroken line, to recall all Christ has taught, those to whom Christ promised the gates of hell shall never prevail against, Mt 16:18, the house of God, the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of truth, 1 TM 3:14.

*What did people do when the gospel was first orally preached to them, before the NT was written, before most people could even read? * Acts2:41 Then THEY THAT gladly RECEIVED HIS WORD were BAPTIZED: and the same day there WERE ADDED UNTO THEM about three thousand souls. 42 And THEY CONTINUED steadfastly IN the APOSTLES’ DOCTRINE and FELLOWSHIP, and in BREAKING OF BREAD, and in PRAYERS. Those that received, not read, his word were baptized. They were brought into the Church by baptism and continued steadfastly in the One Holy Catholic Apostolic Fellowship.] 1Cor 1:9 God is faithful you were called into THE FELLOWSHIP OF his Son JESUS CHRIST 10 I appeal to you BREATHREN by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ that all of you AGREE that there be no dissensions among you that you BE UNITED in the same mind and the same judgment. 1Thes2:13 And we also thank God continually because, when you RECEIVED the word of God, which you HEARD from US, you ACCEPTED it NOT AS the word of men, BUT as it actually is, THE WORD OF GOD, which is at work in you who believe. 1Jn 4:6 WE ARE OF GOD Whoever knows God LISTENS TO US and he who is not of God DOES NOT LISTEN TO US BY THIS WE KNOW the spirit of TRUTH and the spirit of ERROR

With whom did Paul, who wrote scripture, check his own teaching to make sure he had not run in vain? Gal2:1 Then fourteen years after I WENT UP AGAIN TO JERUSALEM with Barnabas, and took Titus with me also. 2 And I went up BY REVELATION, and COMMUNICATED UNTO THEM that GOSPEL which I PREACH among the Gentiles, but privately to them which were of reputation, LEST BY ANY MEANS I SHOULD run, or HAD RUN, IN VAIN.
How do we come to a correct understanding of other domains like math, science, history, language, etc? By ceding control to one dogmatic interpreter or by collaborating and comparing knowledge in order to be “led into all truth” while “studying to show ourselves approved?” 👍
JL: * We have no authority to cede control to one dogmatic interpreter or anyone. That magisterium, teaching authority, was given to them by our Lord himself.* [Mt 28:16 the eleven disciples 18 Jesus spoke to THEM ALL POWER IS GIVEN TO ME in heaven and in earth 19 GO TEACH ALL NATIONS baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit 20 TEACHING to observe ALL things whatever I have COMMANDED you I AM WITH YOU always even TO THE END.] The great commission to the Church, the apostles fellowship. Christ to whom all power in heaven and earth is given, sent with his authority the apostles, to TEACH ALL NATIONS, to observe what he taught, they were to go to all nations (universal, catholic). Only the apostles were sent to teach all nations, with the authority of Christ. Christ promised to be with them till the end of the world. Those individuals would not be around till the end, but their SENT successors in the Apostolic Fellowship would, by passing on their authority to teach, sanctify and rule by laying on of hands from bishop to bishop till the end.
[2 TIM 1:6 …stir up the GIFT OF GOD IN YOU BY THE PUTTING ON OF MY HANDS 7 GOD HAS GIVEN US the SPIRIT OF POWER. TITUS 1:5 For this I left you in Crete that you should set in order …and ORDAIN ELDERS in EVERY CITY AS I APPOINTED YOU.

*The Church does collaborate and compare knowledge, through discernment, by study, by theologians, Church Fathers, the lived out Apostolic Traditions, the collective knowledge of the college of bishops in union with the pope throughout the world and also with prayer. Scripture indicates, to be a valid minister one must be SENT, [Rm 10:14 …how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 how shall they preach EXCEPT THEY BE SENT? Lk 6:12 And it came to pass in those days, that HE went out into a mountain to pray, and CONTINUED ALL NIGHT IN PRAYER to God. 13 And when it was day, he called unto him his disciples: and OF THEM HE CHOSE TWELVE, whom also he NAMED APOSTLES; JN 17:18 As you have SENT me into the world I also SENT them into the world 20 I do not pray for these alone but for those who will BELIEVE IN ME THROUGH THEIR WORD 21 THAT THEY ALL MY BE ONE as you Father are in me and I in you THAT THE WORLD MAY BELIEVE you SENT ME.] [Acts15:28 It seemed good to the HOLY SPIRIT and to US not to burden you with anything beyond the following requirements:] Using their authority to teach ALL and bind and loose, Mt16:18. That magisterial teaching authority speaks with the authority of Christ, guided by the Holy Spirit, and all Christian knew it. That’s why the decision was accepted with JOY in Antioch, Acts15.
 
The truth of the matter is: Catholics use the very same private judgment to determine that (in their own minds) the RCC is the ‘true church’. The 2 Peter passage refers to the inspiration of Scripture: “Knowing this first, that no prophecy of Scripture is of any private interpretation” (2 Pet 1:20)

I am in full agreement with this verse as it indicates that no SCRIPTURE was given of any private interpretation. In other words, these words have been inspired by the Holy Spirit and are without error. Peter does not condemn an INDIVIDUALS own interpretation of Scripture anywhere in this text.👍
 
If I only concerned myself with spreading the gospel of Christ as Paul taught we are to do, how have I sinned?
The primary problem with this, and the rest of the presumptions you make about doing or not doing what is scriptural is this…

You are basing EVERYTHING on what YOU personally believe Scripture reveals. This is the one and only problem here. You believe that you have the capacity to determine what is biblical and what is unbiblical, merely because you claim to have faith, and personal protection from error by the Holy Spirit in reading Scripture.

The Holy Spirit descended unto earth to give that particular charism to SPECIFIC people (apostolic people)…not every Joe who picks up a Bible, that at the time, didn’t exist in fullness.

The Holy Spirit is with Christians in beautiful ways…but not in THAT way. We must leave the biblical interpretation to the ones SENT by Christ…and their ordained (laid hands on) successors.

This is why we disagree with your assertions. You also have to understand that the Church stands on a tripod of Sacred Scripture, Sacred Tradition, and Authoritative Magisterial teaching (of both). Scripture does not contradict Catholic teaching. You may not find in the Bible every discipline the Church promulgates to the faithful, but nothing the Church does in it’s shepherding contradicts Sacred Scripture. If you think it does, the most likely reason is that you misinterpret the teaching. For many teachings, it’s not enough to speculate on the specifics, you have to dig deep into tradition to fully understand why She does what She does

But, be assured of one thing…All She does…I mean everything…is centered on Christ. It’s all for the Glory of God. Not men…not money…Not even Mary (although she is most significant and blessed)…or whatever anyone might tell you. Take it from an inquisitive, unsatisfied, prove-it-to-me, seeker of Christ…I spent 6 years exploring all the treasures of the Church to verify both authority, and Christ-centeredness. It’s all there…and much more.

God Bless
 
elvisman you said: First of all, praying to saints is not worship.

I never really considered it worshipping but also I have never seen it done by those who were alive in Christ in the recordings of the Holy Word, old testament or new. And frankly, if it were a practice done by Paul and the apostles and I am missing it, please inform me and I would end this with, ‘oh wow, I never saw that in the Word before.’

you said: We pray for intercession –

But do you realize, if I choose to pray directly to God through His son as He said that I should, that I am committing no sin?

you said: The only difference is that they have been mad perfect in God.

Are you saying they were made perfect after they died? Or before? Paul tells us to pray for one another before we are even made perfect. But I’ve never seen him seek to ask those that have passed on to heaven to pray. Only while they were alive. I’m not thinking that this is positively so, for perhaps I’m missing something in the scripture.

you said: these are not “dead people” as many Protestants assert.

I agree. They are alive in Heaven with a new body.

you said: As for the word, “Catholic” not being found in the bible – show me where “Trinity” and “Bible” are found. While we’re at it – show me where the Bible lists that are supposed to be in the Bible. You won’t find any of this but you will find the concepts that were later named.

I totally agree here. My mentioning it was sincerely to point out that the name catholic church by definition could be translated universal Christian Church. Names are hardly important but deeds are. When Jesus warned of wolves in sheeps clothing, it meant that many would wear the nametag but their actions and teachings would prove them.

you said: Much of what Protestants refuse to accept boils down to a question of Authority. Jesus gave ALL power ALL authority to His Church (Matt. 16:19, Matt. 18-18, John 16:13-15, John 20:22-23 to name a few places).

And you know, I have no problem with this authority. My problem is…those in the position of authority given by God are defiling it with practices I find offensive to God as revealed in His word.

you said: He prays for the UNITY of that Church – that they remain ONE - as He and the Father are ONE (John 17:11-12, 21-23)

And I couldn’t agree more. Indeed we should. We need to purge the church of practices that clutter the way to Heaven that Jesus died to pave. We need to become one in mind and deed. By the way, I was wondering, do all people of the current catholic church pray the rosary and wear the scapulars and stuff? Do all feel the need to pray to saints?

you said: He, then goes on to say that he would be with His Church until the end of time (Matt. 28:20).

and He will. And I believe the time to purge the Church as is revealed in revelation, of things that do not please Him has come and is now.

you said: Then, in Acts, he seals the deal by identifying his very self with his Church (Acts 9:4-5). This is why the Church CANNOT “defile itself”, as you assert. This is alsowhy the Church CANNOT “err”, as you state.

The church can defile itself and does. That is why judgement will begin at the house of God, the church, His body as is stated by Paul. We are not exempt from temptation, from sin, from falling away. Why I ask you, would the apostles and Jesus go through such length to warn us of such evils, if in fact the church, the body of Christ, those saved by calling upon His name, were not able to fall? Do you see that we must consider these points of scripture when saying ‘the church cannot defile itself’ or ‘be in error’?

you said: You say that if you “live your life according to the written word and nothing more, what crime in Christ’s Church, have you committed?” I would say, “None”. Because of you were to live your life this way, you would cease being Protestant and would have no choice by to be a Catholic.

And I would say, I never ceased being a true catholic, but the current catholic church has forsaken the Holy Ways in their traditions and dogma.

you said: PS - Please show me how the Church teaches idolatry, as you have stated.

The scapular. If you wear it when you die, you have its power, whichever that particular scapular holds. It’s like thinking the Bible itself holds power just by possessing it. As though if I were to have it in my arms when I died, I would be granted some exemption by merely possessing it. Obedience to the Bible is where the power lies, nowhere else. God is looking for a people that will love and worship Him in spirit and truth not in scapulars. Don’t you find this practice the least bit disturbing as a follower of Christ? If those that are in authority do abuse their position in any way contrary to the Word of God, who will you obey? God or man? When Paul was put in this position with the popes of Jesus day, he said clearly, “I obey God not man”.

you said: (By the way - if you’re wondering why some of your post is missing here it’s because I had to delete part of your text so I could fit mine.)

I know what you mean.

 
i was but that is not my purpose here anyway i love you guys put your trust in Christ alone for your salvation.
 
elvisman you said: First of all, praying to saints is not worship.

I never really considered it worshipping but also I have never seen it done by those who were alive in Christ in the recordings of the Holy Word, old testament or new. And frankly, if it were a practice done by Paul and the apostles and I am missing it, please inform me and I would end this with, ‘oh wow, I never saw that in the Word before.’

But do you realize, if I choose to pray directly to God through His son as He said that I should, that I am committing no sin?
Are you saying they were made perfect after they died? Or before? Paul tells us to pray for one another before we are even made perfect. But I’ve never seen him seek to ask those that have passed on to heaven to pray. Only while they were alive. I’m not thinking that this is positively so, for perhaps I’m missing something in the scripture.

I agree. They are alive in Heaven with a new body.
The intercessory prayers of those in heaven for us are spoken of in Revelation 8:4 & 5:8. We are made perfect after we die in Christ.
The Church has never taught that you are sinning if you don’t ask for intercessory prayer. It is foolish, however, to throw away that opportunity because, as it says in James 5:16:
"Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The fervent prayer of a righteous person is verypowerful."

And you know, I have no problem with this authority. My problem is…those in the position of authority given by God are defiling it with practices I find offensive to God as revealed in His word.
As I pointed out - the Church cannot defile itself because Christ identifies his ver self with it. Christ cannot defile Christ.
By the way, I was wondering, do all people of the current catholic church pray the rosary and wear the scapulars and stuff? Do all feel the need to pray to saints?
The Rosary and the Scapular are devotions - NOT necessities or mandates.
Even Protestants practice certain Lenten and Advent Devotions.

you said: He, then goes on to say that he would be with His Church until the end of time (Matt. 28:20).

and He will. And I believe the time to purge the Church as is revealed in revelation, of things that do not please Him has come and is now.
Agreed - but the Church does not displease him, although individuals may.
you said: Then, in Acts, he seals the deal by identifying his very self with his Church (Acts 9:4-5). This is why the Church CANNOT “defile itself”, as you assert. This is alsowhy the Church CANNOT “err”, as you state.

The church can defile itself and does. That is why judgement will begin at the house of God, the church, His body as is stated by Paul. We are not exempt from temptation, from sin, from falling away. Why I ask you, would the apostles and Jesus go through such length to warn us of such evils, if in fact the church, the body of Christ, those saved by calling upon His name, were not able to fall? Do you see that we must consider these points of scripture when saying ‘the church cannot defile itself’ or ‘be in error’?
The Church CANNOT defile itself. Like I sais above - the Body is Christ and therefore cannot defile itself. I also said that individuals can defile, the Church cannot defile itself. For this reason, itt cannot be in error either, though individuals may be.**
I would say, I never ceased being a true catholic, but the current catholic church has forsaken the Holy Ways in their traditions and dogma.
See my answers above.
you said: PS - Please show me how the Church teaches idolatry, as you have stated.

The scapular. If you wear it when you die, you have its power, whichever that particular scapular holds. It’s like thinking the Bible itself holds power just by possessing it. As though if I were to have it in my arms when I died, I would be granted some exemption by merely possessing it. Obedience to the Bible is where the power lies, nowhere else. God is looking for a people that will love and worship Him in spirit and truth not in scapulars. Don’t you find this practice the least bit disturbing as a follower of Christ? If those that are in authority do abuse their position in any way contrary to the Word of God, who will you obey? God or man? When Paul was put in this position with the popes of Jesus day, he said clearly, “I obey God not man”.
What you have just described is not what the Church teaches. It is another anti-Catholic myth.

**Obedience to the Bible is NOT where power lies. It lies in Jesus through the obedience of faith (Romans 1:5, 16:26). **

Also - there were no “Popes of Jesus day”. The Pharisees were not popes.
 
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