Protestants: how do you know that your interpretation of the Bible is the right one?

[elvisman]

Of course now you’re resorting to misrepresenting my position (unless this was an honest oversight on your part). I embrace, affirm, and defend real presence. We simply disagree on what real presence means. I do not view the Eucharist as a mere representation of Christ or solely a rememberance (though it is also a rememberance).

Moreover, John didn’t author the bread of life discourse, he simply recorded the words of Christ. You mention Ignatius, who wrote one sentence on the Eucharist (affirming real presence, or that it is the flesh of our Lord). However, he never elaborated beyond that (as I said before).

Anyway … tell me what does it mean to you to say that the bread retains the appearance of bread, but in substance it is the flesh of Christ? Is this a spiritual or physical reality? In other words if we did an MRI on a real die hard 100% faithful Catholic while he or she was ingesting the Eucharist … would we see the bread transform into flesh or would it continue to retain the “appearance” of bread (yet in substance be flesh)? If it’s the latter (which I suspect it is) then how can you say it’s an objective physical reality? Isn’t that a bizarre proposition.

Isn’t it more correct to say real presence means a pneumatic presence?

Reformed theology has also historically taught that when the Holy Communion is received, not only the spirit, but also the true body and blood of Jesus Christ (hence “real”) are received through the Spirit, but these are only received by those partakers who eat worthily (i.e., repentantly) with faith. (link here)

The above statement represents the doctrine of my denomination (Presbyterian), which I embrace whole heartedly.

Joen wrote the Bread of Life discourse under the guidance of the Holy Spirit.
It is said that John’s Gospel was written toward the end of the 1st century and is very different from the previous 3 “synoptic” gospels for a reason.

John’s Gospel is very heavy on the Sacraments because of the heretical views of Gnostics and other people of his day who were twisting the word of God to their own destruction (2 Pet. 3:16).

Jogn 6:60-66:
***Then many of his disciples who were listening said, “This saying is hard; who can accept it?” ******Since Jesus knew that his disciples were murmuring about this, he said to them, "Does this shock you? ***
***What if you were to see the Son of Man ascending to where he was before? ***
**It is the spirit that gives life, while the flesh is of no avail. The words I have spoken to you are spirit and life. **
**But there are some of you who do not believe." Jesus knew from the beginning the ones who would not believe and the one who would betray him. **
***And he said, “For this reason I have told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by my Father.” ***
As a result of this, many of his disciples returned to their former way of life and no longer accompanied him.

The belief in what Jesus was saying must be revealed to those who truly follow and obey him.

The belief in Transubstantiation and the Real Presence is why so many of the Early christians were put to death. they accused of being “cannibals” by the Jews and the Romans during those first few hundred years because of their ardent belief in these doctrines.

It has apparently not been reveraled to you yet. Pray that you might be less prideful and that God may reveal this truth to you.

 

[christian1]

to stevegc: you said: I don’t create doctrine, friend.

Please know for future reference that when I say ‘you’ I mean who ‘you’ represent.

you said: For starters, the very verses in which the Spirit descends upon the apostles proves The Church’s position.

Yes it does.

**you said: **But you know, it doesn’t matter if I show you a hundred verses where the apostles are the only appointed ones for teaching the Truth…

you won’t find such a scripture.

**you said: **would it matter to you?

I base my entire belief on scripture, why would you think it wouldn’t matter to me? I’m sola scriptura remember (those are you guys title for me)

you said: No. Why? Reference my previous post about how you judge everything through your own private interpretation. I do not. I judge it on the apostolic (Church) interpretations.

I’m not trying to interpret any scripture here, I’m merely trying to interpret how you came to your doctrines that are declared as ‘truth’ when there is much evidence in scripture saying it is not.

 

[Always_For_Him]

Christian1,
You have answered from YOUR perspective. You are human. You are fallible. Your perspective won’t stray because of the WAY you interpret the Word of God as long as you believe you have the authority to interpret it the WAY you interpret it. Can you ever be proven wrong? Are you always right? Why do you hold so strongly to YOUR opinion, your feeling over Apostolic Teaching??? You believe you are right, but you just might be wrong. According to 2,000 years of Church teaching, YOU are wrong. Get OUT of yourself and submit to Christ. It is hard for anyone to admit being wrong, especially when it is something so intimately close as our faith. I have had to do it. All of us have. Just look at the stories of all of the converts. They have REALLY had to strip it down and admit their error. How beautiful their stories are!

 

[christian1]

To MrS you said: most of which are actually written down, canonized and are still in the Bible, the Book of the Catholic Church.

Most of which. These are the ones in question. And of course those that claim to have scriptural origin, these I would like to see such scriptures.

I’m not here to prove my point. I’m here to prove your ‘truths’ declared as doctrines of which prevent men from entering heaven unless embraced.

 

[djrakowski]

That is correct. Either he is wrong, or I am wrong, or we are both wrong. Who will judge. I have to make a final judgement for myself as I am ultimately responsible for my own soul, no man can save it but me through my decision to follow Christ and the first fathers teachings and ALL other mens teachings that do NOT CONTRADICT or ADD in such a way that discredits the first teachings. This Paul COMMANDED us to be sure to not believe ANOTHER GOSPEL OR SPIRIT DIFFERENT FROM WHAT HE TAUGHT.

What if you’ve judged incorrectly, and Jerry Marino is correct? What does scripture teach us about believing in false doctrines? Is God divided, such that the Father teaches one truth, the Son another, and the Holy Spirit something else?

Either you, Jerry or both are wrong, and it’s pretty important to know which is the case. The Bible is pretty clear about the dangers of believing in false doctrines, so I’d really want to know, if I were you, whether I’d gotten it right.

Which brings me back to my original point - it seems like the way to determine whether a person believes/church teaches right doctrines is to determine whether they agree with you. Or from Jerry’s perspective, whether they agree with him (and you’ve pointed out that you and Jerry disagree on the matter of OSAS - a pretty significant disagreement, don’t you think)?

Who said He isn’t still guidning all of us into full truth. If I had not tested the spirit of what he was teaching, then I would believe him. But I obeyed the written word and tested the spirit, in this case I simply used the very scripture that he was using to teach his doctrine. those who know the word of God fully know that doctrine in scripture is supported by ALL scripture. It must past the scripture test.

So Jerry’s wrong, and you’re right? I think he believes just as strongly that you’re wrong and he’s right. There has to be something more than the fact that you’ve “tested the spirit of what he was teaching” and that it must “past the scripture test.”

Jerry most certainly believes that his views pass the scripture test. But you hold to an opposing viewpoint, and you believe that passes the scripture test. There has to be a way to tell which of you is right (and whether both of you might possibly be wrong).

Further… and I must admit, this is getting a bit tedious… to whom did Jesus promise to guide into all truth by the Holy Spirit? Note that the passages in question were directed to the apostles - not you, not me, and not Jerry.

So now, it must be determined, who continues this apostolic ministry?

Concerning once saved always saved, I don’t have to be catholic to know that this doctrine is not found in scripture, but the opposite. I know this by simply KNOWING the scriptures. In this case it is not a matter of interpretaion but a matter of knowing the Word fully. He just needs to continue as always. Asking God to continue to lead Him as He promised He would into truth. The truth will uncover the lie.

Does that mean that Jerry, who believes in OSAS, is not in possession of the truth? He searched the scriptures just as diligently as you and came up with that interpretation. And he says he’s been enlightened by the Holy Spirit, just as you have. So are you saying that you’re right and he’s wrong (and thus not guided by the Holy Spirit, and therefore not a true believer)?

I understand that many have need of teachers. But how long must we have needs to be taught before we come to the knowledge? Before we are equipped to teach the gospel?

Did scripture say the apostolic ministry would end? What’s the point of St. Paul instructing Timothy and Titus how to lay hands on worthy men to lead the church if there’s a point at which this ministry would end?

You’re all over the place with this one, christian1.

 

[djrakowski]

**you said: **But you know, it doesn’t matter if I show you a hundred verses where the apostles are the only appointed ones for teaching the Truth…

you won’t find such a scripture.

To whom was Jesus speaking in John 16:13, when he said this: “But when he comes, the Spirit of truth, he will guide you to all truth. He will not speak on his own, but he will speak what he hears, and will declare to you the things that are coming.”

It’s really not that hard… just look through a a few chapters and you’ll see that this promise was given to the apostles, not to each and every believer.

 

[MrS]

To MrS you said: most of which are actually written down, canonized and are still in the Bible, the Book of the Catholic Church.

Most of which. These are the ones in question. And of course those that claim to have scriptural origin, these I would like to see such scriptures.

I’m not here to prove my point. I’m here to prove your ‘truths’ declared as doctrines of which prevent men from entering heaven unless embraced.

You have the free will to accept God’s grace. I have no idea at what point you are right now in your walk with the Lord.

He will open your eyes in His time… not mine, not yours.

For now all I ask is that you admit that not everything the Lord taught is written in the Scriptures. If you have a problem with that, so be it… for even that Truth is written in the Scriptures.

Perhaps you should be asking yourself what might not be explained in Scripture, and where you might find the source of those Truths.

Perhaps you should be asking who has legitimate authority to offer these Truths.

Perhaps you should be rejecting EVERY faith community that has been formed by a man or woman…regardless of how holy or sincere or inspired they appear to be.

After all, Jesus Himself said He would build only One Church and that she would be His. Not for just a generation, but His… period.

.

 

[christian1]

to Cestertonrules, you said: The Holy Spirit can work through all of us, but if we deny the teaching of the apostles, we are not following the Holy Spirit.

I do not deny the teachings of the apostles.

**you said: **Jesus promised the disciples that the Holy Spirit would lead them into all truth.

This promise was given to all believers. Consider these scriptures.

Luk 11:13 If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him?

and this one:

Joh 7:39 (But He spoke this about the Spirit, which they who believed on Him should receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.)

Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, the Holy Spirit whom the Father will send in My name, He shall teach you all things and bring all things to your remembrance, whatever I have said to you.

When the gift of the Holy Spirit is spoken of it is spoken interchangebly to the apostles present and to all those who were to believe on Him through their words.

The scriptures do not indicate that only certain ones would receive the gift of being led into all truth. The following show what the apostles have been given and tells that they in fact pass the same gifts of the spirit onto all those who should believe in the gospel they were passing.

Eph 1:7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace,
Eph 1:8 which He caused to abound toward us in all wisdom and understanding;
Eph 1:9 having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself,
Eph 1:10 for an administration of the fullness of times, to head up all things in Christ, both the things in Heaven, and the things on earth, even in Him,
Eph 1:11 in whom also we have been chosen to an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His own will,
Eph 1:12 for us to be to the praise of His glory, who previously had trusted in Christ;
Eph 1:13 in whom also you, hearing the Word of Truth, the gospel of our salvation, in whom also believing, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 1:14 who is the earnest of our inheritance, to the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.
Eph 1:15 Therefore I also, hearing of your faith in the Lord Jesus and love to all the saints,
Eph 1:16 do not cease giving thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers,
Eph 1:17 that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him,
Eph 1:18 the eyes of your understanding being enlightened, that you may know what is the hope of His calling, and what is the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints,
Eph 1:19 and what is the surpassing greatness of His power toward us, the ones believing according to the working of His mighty strength id not limit some gifts to some the gifts of the Spirit to some

you said: Those who stray from their teachings are not being led into all truth by the Spirit.

By scripture, I have not strayed at all.

you said: Some scripture for you to consider:

1 John 4

6We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit of truth and the spirit of falsehood.

You understand that I do listen to the first fathers and any after them that have disregarded these very scriptures for the sake of their tradition?

Luke 10
16"He who listens to you listens to me; he who rejects you rejects me; but he who rejects me rejects him who sent me."

*Again, you realize I am not rejecting the first fathers, nor any other that come after them unless their traditions and doctrines begin to clutter the way to God as do several of the doctrines of the Catholic Church do, namely the doctrine of Mary. *

John 20
21Again Jesus said, “Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.” 22And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.”

*I hope you have considered the fullness of scripture in your understanding of this. For we know that the scriptures also indicate that this same Holy Spirit was
promised to all those who believe. see below:

Joh 7:39 (But He spoke this about the Spirit, which they who believed on Him should receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.)

Act 2:3 And tongues as of fire appeared to them, being distributed; and it sat upon each of them.
Act 2:4 And they were **all **filled of the Holy Spirit, and began to speak in other languages, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Not just the apostles. Around 120 people, women too.*1 Timothy 3
15if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God’s household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.

2 Thes 2
15So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.

Indeed we should.

Acts 15

23With them they sent the following letter: The apostles and elders, your brothers, To the Gentile believers in Antioch, Syria and Cilicia: Greetings. 24We have heard that some went out from us without our authorization and disturbed you, troubling your minds by what they said.

Already, many were beginning to teach things contrary to what they were teaching. Showing from the earliest of days the devils intentions.

---

 

[SteveGC]

christian1…my friend in Christ, it is truly mind-boggling to dialogue with you. We have tried to be so carefully clear about the problem with your theology, of your premise that YOU can extract the fullness of truth from the Bible. I am going to go slowly here, and address some of your posts…

That is correct. Either he is wrong, or I am wrong, or we are both wrong. Who will judge. I have to make a final judgement for myself as I am ultimately responsible for my own soul, no man can save it but me through my decision to follow Christ and the first fathers teachings and ALL other mens teachings that do NOT CONTRADICT or ADD in such a way that discredits the first teachings. This Paul COMMANDED us to be sure to not believe ANOTHER GOSPEL OR SPIRIT DIFFERENT FROM WHAT HE TAUGHT.

OK. Here’s a prime example of where you fail to see the problem. Dj asked you how you determine conflicting interpretations between you and another person. You said, in essence, that **both of you **would be the judges. You will judge for yourself…the other person for himself. This position basically says one of two things: 1) there is more than one truth out there (it is subjective)…or 2) whoever of us is wrong, or if we’re both wrong, we’ll be guided unto the truth at some other time. OK, so we KNOW option #1 is wrong, right? So, what’s wrong with option #2? First of all, this blows OSAS completely out of the water, because by taking this position, you admit you could be wrong about your understanding of salvation. But, we Catholics don’t believe in OSAS anyway, so what’s even MORE wrong about #2? It’s this…now listen closely please…the truth about salvation (about faith and morals) is NOT HIDDEN in Scripture…waiting there for you to unearth it for yourself! You really have to connect with this, christian1. In all seriousness…this is your fundamental error. You think the Bible is there for you to “find” the truth. It’s not. The truth has been revealed…it is not in a book. It has been passed down, outside of the book, through “breathed on” men, who then “laid hands on” other men. And these men are SENT to teach us all. This does NOT demean or downplay the significance of Sacred Scripture. It is a treasure of the Church, held as highly as any other sanctuary of Truth (along with Tradition and the Magisterium), all three of them GOD instituted. So, what’s the REAL answer to DJ’s question? It’s this…The Church decides which one of you is right. Now, She shouldn’t HAVE to do this, because you shouldn’t be off trying to extract doctrine out of scripture in the first place. The Church is there to settle disputes about understanding and context, about moral questions and such. The point, again, is that doctrine is settled…faith and morals is settled…it lies with The Church…but you have to stop thinking that by “The Church” we mean MAN. We don’t. We mean CHRIST, and specifically THE HOLY SPIRIT, working THROUGH men…breathed on men, and their successors.

It must past the scripture test.

This idea of “passing the scripture test” is a man-made attempt at authentic authority replacement. It will lead you NOWHERE. Scripture was NEVER intended to be used the way you (and so many others) continue to obstinately use it.

prove to me by the Holy Word that your doctrines of man do not nullify the word of God as the priests of Jesus day were doing?

The priests of Jesus’ day were NOT the apostles, of whom our bishops and priests are descendants.

In this case it is not a matter of interpretaion but a matter of knowing the Word fully.

What’s the difference between interpreting the Scriptures and KNOWING the Scriptures? You had to first interpret them on your own before you KNEW them. And either way, you’re not supposed to be doing EITHER of those things when it comes to finding the truth

I understand that many have need of teachers. But how long must we have needs to be taught before we come to the knowledge? Before we are equipped to teach the gospel?

When you align yourself first with the TRUE teachers, accept THEIR teaching…then, perhaps, you will begin to be equipped to teach (preach it to) others.

 

[josie_L]

to show the world you are a follower of Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior.

and what do you think He did it for?

The previous poster whom I was talking to, said it was to fulfil all righteousness (as per the Bible), my question is what does baptism have to do with fulfilling all righteousness, as we can agree that Jesus was free of all sin (original or personal sin)? What does baptism do for us, apart from proclaiming us followers of Christ?

 

[MrS]

Luke 10
16"He who listens to you listens to me; he who rejects you rejects me; but he who rejects me rejects him who sent me."

Again, you realize I am not rejecting the first fathers, nor any other that come after them unless their traditions and doctrines begin to clutter the way to God as do several of the doctrines of the Catholic Church do, namely the doctrine of Mary.

John 20
21Again Jesus said, “Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.” 22And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.”

*I hope you have considered the fullness of scripture in your understanding of this. For we know that the scriptures also indicate that this **same Holy Spirit was ***
promised to all those who believe. see below:

*Joh 7:39 (But He spoke this about the Spirit, which they who believed on Him should receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.) *

*Act 2:3 And tongues as of fire appeared to them, being distributed; and it sat upon each of them. *
*Act 2:4 And they were **all ***filled of the Holy Spirit, and began to speak in other languages, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

*Not just the apostles. Around 120 people, women too.*1 Timothy 3
15if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God’s household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.

2 Thes 2
15So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.

Indeed we should.

Acts 15

23With them they sent the following letter: The apostles and elders, your brothers, To the Gentile believers in Antioch, Syria and Cilicia: Greetings. 24We have heard that some went out from us without our authorization and disturbed you, troubling your minds by what they said.

Already, many were beginning to teach things contrary to what they were teaching. Showing from the earliest of days the devils intentions.

1] unless So is this unless you just don’t see it, or don’t understand it ? Or perhaps God has not given you the graces to move deeper in faith. For now, it appears you trust in your own understanding. True Faith is complete trust in God alone… you obligate yourself entirely to Him.

2] ***Holy Spirit was ***promised to all those who believe The devil believes. I find all to often that many non-Catholics reject Jesus Himself from John 6 just as the early non-believers did. They walked away, and so do many Protestants… only today they blame in on Mary.
If one wishes to be saved, one must believe fully to the best of their ability with the graces given. You will know when you have faith… because then you will pray for more of it.

3] church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth. Surely you can’t think this is meant simply as the body of believers and ignore the teaching authority of His Church. Jesus used the word Church for the first time in Matthew. It was His choice of word, His choice of quantity (one), and His choice of possession (My). Scripture is NOT the pillar and foundation of Truth. Scripture is the collection of canonized writings of much that was taught by Jesus to the Apostles. If all those in the upper room on the Birthday of the Catholic Church at Pentacost were to be treated with equal authoriity or teaching ability… then how come only TWO qualified to fill Judas’ spot?

4] word of mouth or Thanks for the quote. So what is the difficulity in accepting Truth coming from oral teaching?

5] **24We have heard that some went out from us without our authorization and disturbed you **And so it continues with the Catholic Church addressing each heresy from the years right after Christ’s ministry, through the centuries, into the Reformation, and even to today when a new faith community - NOT a Church - seems to appear daily… each claiming inspiration from the Holy Spirit.

The Holy Spirit will not divide…

The Holy Spirit leads a Believer into one Truth, one Church.

The self proclaimed believer, the one who misuses Paul’s teachings, is the one who is in danger… inspite of the visible good fruits they may display.

.

 

[josie_L]

so let us look into scripture to tell us where we get OSAS.

John 6:37 Everything that the Father gives me will come to me, and I will not reject anyone who comes to me, 38 because I came down from heaven not to do my own will but the will of the one who sent me. 39 And this is the will of the one who sent me, that I should not lose anything of what he gave me, but that I should raise it (on) the last day. 40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in him may have eternal life, and I shall raise him (on) the last day."

Of course, God does not wish us to lose what he gave us, he wants all to be saved, but does that mean that we ourselves cannot lose our faith and/or the gift of our salvation. Why is John even mentioning that God should not want us to lose anything if there wasn’t a real possibility of losing it in the first place.

That it is the will of the Father that we attain Eternity is not in doubt.

Also, when John states that we must believe in Jesus it is understood that we do so in word and deed, that is believing in him (as our Lord and Saviour) entails believing his every word (as it was given to the Apostles) and following him in his ways, by staying true to this we MAY attain Eternity.

v37 states that we did not find Jesus but the Father gave us to Him and we went towards Him plus when we go to Jesus He will not reject us.

Again, this speaks of God’s will but not our own which can and does reject God’s will.

John 16:43 Jesus answered and said to them, "Stop murmuring among yourselves. 44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draw him, and I will raise him on the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets: ‘They shall all be taught by God.’ Everyone who listens to my Father and learns from him comes to me. 46 Not that anyone has seen the Father except the one who is from God; he has seen the Father. 47** Amen, amen, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life.**

Believing means more than a verbal or intellectual assent of Jesus’s divinity and resurrection.

My friends that is where i get the OSAS belief and i will state once more i did nothing to earn my salvation cause if i did then i would then probably lose it, but my friends the great news is that is not from what we do but rather what God has done and will do in one’s life if one listens.

And you believe that Catholics earn their salvation, don’t you, even though it is directly stated in the Cathecism that we believe and do no such thing (probably one of the reasons you are no longer Catholic). The grace which opened our heart, soul and mind in accepting Jesus was a purely unmerited gift, a gift, however, that entails bearing a cross in imitation of Christ. It is my opinion that those who believe in OSAS, do not want to carry the Cross.

Love in Christ
God bless you

God bless you too.

 

[Jerry_Marino]

oh well for those of you who fear of losing your salvation, i have come to one conclusion.

you are not sure of your own commitment to the LORD, for if the Father gives us to the Son and He WILL not LOSE one that the Father has given Him then one as a believer does not have to fear cause it is not of his or her own accord that he or she has come to Christ, but if one thinks that through whatever means he or she does has the power to secure their salvation then their salvation is under false pretense cause as SCRIPTURE says:

John 6:39 And this is the will of the one who sent me, that I should not lose anything of what he gave me, but that I should raise it (on) the last day. 40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in him may have eternal life, and I shall raise him (on) the last day."

my friends the scripture is clear, remember Jesus is speaking and He says, ‘I should not lose anything’, when i read through the thread on this matter, i read you all to say, ‘that one can lose their salvation’. now how hold on cause i don’t want you to fall and crack your noggin after you read my next statement:

i agree with you! one can lose their salvation! that’s right i agree with you, but you know what i still believe in OSAS! yes cause i don’t base salvation on what i do rather on what God has done in my life.

God bless you.

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

i hear you two but how can we tell?

i don’t dispute the book of Acts in how the church got started nor do i dispute, lets say the first three centuries of the church, but today my friends how can one tell if what the speak is of God and not man?

We have to take these guys seriously given their relationship with the apostles.

St. Ignatius, writing to the Smyrnaeans circa 105. He met the apostle John in person and was thed bishop of Antioch.

Chapter 8. Let nothing be done without the bishop
See that you all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery as you would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as being the institution of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude [of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. It is not lawful without the bishop either to baptize or to celebrate a love-feast; but whatsoever he shall approve of, that is also pleasing to God, so that everything that is done may be secure and valid.

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

oh well for those of you who fear of losing your salvation, i have come to one conclusion.

you are not sure of your own commitment to the LORD, for if the Father gives us to the Son and He WILL not LOSE one that the Father has given Him then one as a believer does not have to fear cause it is not of his or her own accord that he or she has come to Christ, but if one thinks that through whatever means he or she does has the power to secure their salvation then their salvation is under false pretense cause as SCRIPTURE says:

John 6:39 And this is the will of the one who sent me, that I should not lose anything of what he gave me, but that I should raise it (on) the last day. 40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in him may have eternal life, and I shall raise him (on) the last day."

my friends the scripture is clear, remember Jesus is speaking and He says, ‘I should not lose anything’, when i read through the thread on this matter, i read you all to say, ‘that one can lose their salvation’. now how hold on cause i don’t want you to fall and crack your noggin after you read my next statement:

i agree with you! one can lose their salvation! that’s right i agree with you, but you know what i still believe in OSAS! yes cause i don’t base salvation on what i do rather on what God has done in my life.

God bless you.

Speaking of scripture, let’s not ignore these passages:

2 Timothy 2:12 “If we endure, we shall also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us”.

2 Peter 2:20-21 “They were made free from the evil in the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. But if they return to evil things and those things control them, then it is worse for them than it was before. Yes, it would be better for them to have never known the right way than to know it and to turn away from the holy teaching that was given to them.”

Matthew 10:22 "And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved.

Matthew 24:13 "But he who endures to the end shall be saved.

Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, Lord, Lord, shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father.”

John 15:4-6 “Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you, unless you abide in Me. I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me, and I in him, he bears much fruit; for apart from Me you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch, and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned”.

Hebrews 10:26-27 “For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries.”

Hebrews 10:29 “How much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by those who have spurned the Son of God, profaned the blood of the covenant by which they were sanctified, and outraged the Spirit?”

 

[SteveGC]

oh well for those of you who fear of losing your salvation, i have come to one conclusion. you are not sure of your own commitment to the LORD,

So, St Paul was “not sure of his commitment to the LORD”, even though he taught the Philipians*…"just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling;Phil 2:12.* Is that your position? We are not “afraid”, Jerry. We are simply properly taught that salvation, while being a free unmerited gift, must be accepted and cooperated with throughout our lives to attain it. You make the mistake of making Jesus out to be Santa Claus, coming down to us and putting salvation under the tree, so it’s ours and we can never give it back to Santa. Not true. We must COME to Christ, GO TO Him, and abide in him for our entire lives if we are to receive the free gift. This doesn’t diminish the “freeness” of the gift, nor the fact that we did nothing to make God “want” to give us this gift…but there is responsibility and yes, work, to do for us to attain this free gift.

i read you all to say, ‘that one can lose their salvation’. now how hold on cause i don’t want you to fall and crack your noggin after you read my next statement: i agree with you! one can lose their salvation! that’s right i agree with you, but you know what i still believe in OSAS! yes cause i don’t base salvation on what i do rather on what God has done in my life.

Too late, I fell and cracked my noggin. Jerry, you can’t “lose” something you never HAD…to agree with us that you can “lose” your salvation, means you agree that you can fall from the hand of God. We believe this, but I doubt you really do…I think by “lose your salvation” you mean that you can fail to receive it if you don’t believe…this is not what “lose” means. Besides, what do you think “believe” means, Jerry? Did you know that it is a “work”? Yes, you “worked” for your salvation, and by continuing to “believe”, you continue to “work” on your salvation. Believing is something you DO, and what’s more…belief is both profession and acceptance of Christ, AND obedience to His will. It’s all “work”, Jerry, something we all DO. Granted, it’s by Grace that we DO it, but it’s a free will act, Jerry…make no mistake about it.
God bless

 

[orange_man]

Joen wrote the Bread of Life discourse under the guidance of the Holy Spirit.
It is said that John’s Gospel was written toward the end of the 1st century and is very different from the previous 3 “synoptic” gospels for a reason.

John’s Gospel is very heavy on the Sacraments because of the heretical views of Gnostics and other people of his day who were twisting the word of God to their own destruction (2 Pet. 3:16).

let’s stop right here. First, read John 6:25-59 (the bread of life discourse) … these are the words of Jesus (hopefully I don’t have to copy & paste half of John 6 for you to acknowledge this point). Secondly, you have no evidence that John wrote this chapter (much less his entire Gospel) in response to the challenge of Gnosticism. In fact, to the contrary, Gnostics generally look to the Gospel of John (and other Johannine works) for affirmation.

The theory that the Gospel of John was actually a work to silence Gnostics is generally asserted by those who deny Johannine authorship (are you in that group)?

Let’s think about this logically. Here’s a verse that presents problems for Gnostics:

“I have spoken openly to the world,” Jesus replied. "I always taught in synagogues or at the temple, where all the Jews come together. I said nothing in secret (John 18:20). Emphasis mine.

The crux of the Gnostic belief system is secret knowledge withheld from the general public (only a select few enlightened people gain access i.e. the word Gnostic itself means knowledge). To have Jesus say “I said nothing in secret” is obviously a blow to the Gnostics … however, for you to say John wrote this in response to the Gnostics is rather absurd isn’t it? Didn’t John merely record the words of Jesus? Are you saying the Holy Spirit inspired John to misrepresent the words of Jesus? Or are you saying that John only wrote select quotes from Jesus in order to respond to the theological challenges of his day? Does any of this make sense to you? First off … this notion itself would affirm that there is secret knowledge not available to the general public – wouldn’t it? Moreover, if John’s Gospel were designed within the confines of a certain context and historical period … wouldn’t this dilute its timeless application?

I suspect you haven’t thought this issue through very well?

The belief in Transubstantiation and the Real Presence is why so many of the Early christians were put to death. they accused of being “cannibals” by the Jews and the Romans during those first few hundred years because of their ardent belief in these doctrines.

Early Christians were accused of many things … were they true or were they mis-perceptions by Roman authorities? Ironically early Christians were commonly accused of atheism, they were charged with burning Rome, etc. Were the early Christians atheists (for which they were persecuted)? Did they burn Rome (for which Nero slaughtered hundreds of Christians … if not more)?

It has apparently not been reveraled to you yet. Pray that you might be less prideful and that God may reveal this truth to you.

I keep reading this same statement from you … I guess this is how you try and strike a blow at your opponent (with an illogical ad hom statement with absolutely no relevance to the issue at hand). Pretty weak … but that’s OK, take your cheap shots? Maybe they make you feel better about yourself?

 

[jlhargus]

i hear you two but how can we tell?

i don’t dispute the book of Acts in how the church got started nor do i dispute, lets say the first three centuries of the church, but today my friends how can one tell if what the speak is of God and not man?

JL: You say, “nor do i dispute, lets say the first three centuries of the church,” If you don’t dispute the first three centuries then it is a simple matter of checking the teaching and writtings of the church in the first three hundred years, with the teachings of the Catholic Church today. Also check the first three hundred years with your faith group today. I challenge you to do so.

 

[josie_L]

oh well for those of you who fear of losing your salvation, i have come to one conclusion.

you are not sure of your own commitment to the LORD, for if the Father gives us to the Son and He WILL not LOSE one that the Father has given Him then one as a believer does not have to fear cause it is not of his or her own accord that he or she has come to Christ, but if one thinks that through whatever means he or she does has the power to secure their salvation then their salvation is under false pretense cause as SCRIPTURE says:

John 6:39 And this is the will of the one who sent me, that I should not lose anything of what he gave me, but that I should raise it (on) the last day. 40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in him may have eternal life, and I shall raise him (on) the last day."

my friends the scripture is clear, remember Jesus is speaking and He says, ‘I should not lose anything’, when i read through the thread on this matter, i read you all to say, ‘that one can lose their salvation’. now how hold on cause i don’t want you to fall and crack your noggin after you read my next statement:

i agree with you! one can lose their salvation! that’s right i agree with you, but you know what i still believe in OSAS! yes cause i don’t base salvation on what i do rather on what God has done in my life.

God bless you.

God has done miraculous things for us, my friend, but that in itself is a continuous gift, once we start to live the faith we have received. As a Catholic I believe His grace everpresent **grows ** when we cooperate with His will. And yet, it is God that has enabled me to do and be good. The question Jerry, is how much grace do you wish to attain? Are you happy with the bare minimum?

Con Dio sempre. Dio Benedicte.

 

[Jerry_Marino]

well i am not going to tackle all of you at once but paul was sure of his salvation, why is the verse of phillipians 2:12 the one you all use without looking at the second part of that text in verse 13?

i will post it one more time:

Phillippians 2:12 So then, my beloved, obedient as you have always been, not only when I am present but all the more now when I am absent, work out your salvation with fear and trembling. 13 For God is the one who, for his good purpose, works in you both to desire and to work.

the two verses are in the same context to take one without the other, yeah, it would look like we were the ones working out but if you read it is God who works in us, my friends.

the other responses i will not get into cause you all fail to believe the words of Jesus, from John 3:16, John 6:29,39-40, but that is where faith is begins at the Cross.

now willingly sinning, i don’t say that one can go on sinning nor does the bible say that so why even bother with that verse. some of you have said that we stray from the topic but as all can see to the previous verses it is not us who want to confuse and bring up different issues entirely.

i was asked about OSAS, and i give not my opinion about but God’s Word. what you all fail to realize is that Salvation is from God not from your own doing. Jesus said in Matthew 9:13 ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice.’ I did not come to call the righteous but sinners." we are called by Him and we answer if we believe the Gospel of Jesus Christ. my friends the verse i posted from John 6 it clearly states that what the Father has given the Son, He will not lose. them aren’t my words but the Word of God.

John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish. No one can take them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, 13 and no one can take them out of the Father’s hand. 30 The Father and I are one."

yet with the voice of Truth you do not listen cause you are depending on what you can do just to say later on or even now, ‘hey look at me, i lead a perfect life, i am without sin, i do the sacrifices required by the church, i help out my neighbor, God is please with me cause i am working out my salvation’; bolongna!

Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him

again these are not my words but the Word of God, so you don’t argue with me, my friend you argue with God cause it is He who says, “No one can take them out of my hand.” so if He says that then once saved always saved cause he saved me, i did not save myself.

God bless you all