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christian1
Guest
MrS
That would be 2 cor.5:8
That would be 2 cor.5:8
Protestants: how do you know that your interpretation of the Bible is the right one?
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christian1
Guest
Howie:
Your doctrine claims that those who are ‘elect’ cannot be lost.
Yet, Lucifer, who was an elect of God was.
Hell was created for satan and his angels. Angels that were once elect sons of God and perfect are going there. How does this fit with your doctrine?
Your doctrine claims that those who are ‘elect’ cannot be lost.
Yet, Lucifer, who was an elect of God was.
Hell was created for satan and his angels. Angels that were once elect sons of God and perfect are going there. How does this fit with your doctrine?
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Howie01
Guest
Well if you’re going to simply make the claim that Lucifer was elect without proof, then I’ll do the same.
Lucifer was not elect of God. How does that fit with your doctrine?
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elvisman
Guest
You read but you do not understand, so I’ll point it out yet again:Not so, e-man.
There’s a clear contrast set up in the verse: Those unclean continually practicing abominations and lies, will never, no not ever, enter the city BUT (here comes the contrast) Those whose names are written in the book will enter into the city.
By his own admission, Lewis is not a theologian.
Believers are cleansed from all sin by faith in Christ:
Titus 2:14
…who gave Himself for us to redeem us from every lawless deed, and to purify
FOR HIMSELF a people for His own possession, zealous for good deeds.
”Purify,” Gr, katharidzō, “to cleanse,” stated in that verse in the aorist, active—a past, completed act by the subject; namely, Jesus, and that act reflexively: cleansed a people FOR HIMSELF.
His are already cleansed, by Him, and for Him.
Revelation 21:27* “… and nothing unclean, and no one who practices abomination and lying, shall ever come into it, but only those whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life."***
**The text in RED ***(*κοινός) **is what I’m referring to. He ADDS to this, “***and no one who practices abomination and lying, etc.” *****
He has ALREADY stated that NOTHING unclean (κοινός) shall enter. Nothing unclean means NOTHING unclean.**
**You have to do hermeneutical backflips to get around this.
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Howie01
Guest
You’re just repeating yourself, e-man.
Those whose names are written in the book, are not among those who practice abomination and lying, and their not among those who are unclean.
You say they’re not unclean because they’ve been purged in purgatory. You infer purgatory because your church teaches a doctrine of purgatory.
I say they’re not unclean because they’ve been cleansed by Christ, when they believed (Col 2:13-14; Heb 10:14). I reject purgatory because scripture says nothing about a place called “purgatory.”
When they die, believers go to Christ, immediately.
You’re reasoning a later developed doctrine to the scripture, rather than formulating doctrine by reasoning from the scripture.
No backflips at all.
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elvisman
Guest
Howie** –**You’re just repeating yourself, e-man.
Those whose names are written in the book, are not among those who practice abomination and lying, and their not among those who are unclean.
You say they’re not unclean because they’ve been purged in purgatory. You infer purgatory because your church teaches a doctrine of purgatory.
I say they’re not unclean because they’ve been cleansed by Christ, when they believed (Col 2:13-14; Heb 10:14). I reject purgatory because scripture says nothing about a place called “purgatory.”
When they die, believers go to Christ, immediately.
You’re reasoning a later developed doctrine to the scripture, rather than formulating doctrine by reasoning from the scripture.
No backflips at all.
This is a silly argument. The word, “Purgatory” is not mentioned in scripture - so the doctrine of purgatory is false? As I’ve already pointed out, the word, “Trinity” is not in Scripture but that doesn’t mean the doctrine is false. For that matter, show me the word, “Bible” in the Bible.
The doctrine of Purgatory has been around as long as the Church because it IS taught in Scripture implicitly – just as the Trinity is taught implicitly – not explicitly. (2 Macc. 12:43–45, Matt. 12:32, 1 Cor 3:15, 1 Peter 3:19)**
**The Early Church Fathers believed in and taught the Doctrine of Purgatory and praying for the dead: Clement of Alexandria, Origen, Abercius, Tertullian, Cyprian, Cyril of Jerusalem, John Chrysostom, Ambrose of Milan, Augustine, to name a few. But I guess you know more than they did.
Howie** - just because you reject a particular belief of the Church doesn’t make it untrue.**
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Howie01
Guest
It’s not taught implicitly in scripture. But what is taught explicitly in Scripture is that Christ cleanses His from all unrighteousness, and from the guilt and penalty of sin, and that He has perfected them (Heb 10:14).
And I guess you didn’t post any support for that because I guess you’ve guessed that I’ve already read the support and have found it wanting. (Good guess.)
Elvisman, the converse is also true; viz: your acceptance of a particular belief of the Church doesn’t make the belief true.
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elvisman
Guest
It IS implicitly taught and I already gave you the verses - which you ignored.
As for the support from the Fathers - you found it wanting because of your refusal to believe.
**The Early Church Fathers believed in purgatory and prayers for the dead. **
Clement of Alexandria
**The believer through discipline divests himself of his passions and passes to the mansion which is better than the former one, passes to the greatest torment, taking with him the characteristic of repentance for the faults he may have committed after baptism. He is tortured then still more, not yet attaining what he sees others have acquired. The greatest torments are assigned to the believer, for God’s righteousness is good, and His goodness righteous, and though these punishments cease in the course of the expiation and purification of each one, “yet” etc. (Patres Groeci. IX, col. 332 A.D. 150-215]). **
Origen
If a man departs this life with lighter faults, he is condemned to fire which burns away the lighter materials, and prepares the soul for the kingdom of God, where nothing defiled may enter**. For if on the foundation of Christ you have built not only gold and silver and precious stones (I Cor., 3); but also wood and hay and stubble, what do you expect when the soul shall be separated from the body? (Patres Groeci. XIII, col. 445, 448 A.D. 185-232]).**
Tertullian
That allegory of the Lord Matt. 5:25-26] . . . is extremely clear and simple in its meaning . . . [beware lest as] a transgressor of your agreement, before God the judge . . . and lest this judge deliver you over to the angel who is to execute the sentence, and he commit you to the prison of hell, out of which there will be no dismissal until the smallest even of your delinquencies be paid off in the period before the resurrection. What can be a more fitting sense than this? What a truer interpretation? (The Soul 35 A.D. 210]).
Cyprian
It is one thing to stand for pardon, another thing to attain to glory; it is one thing, when cast into prison, not to go out thence until one has paid the uttermost farthing; another thing at once to receive the wages of faith and courage. It is one thing, tortured by long suffering for sins, to be cleansed and long purged by fire; another to have purged all sins by suffering. (Letters 51[55]:20 A.D. 253]).
Cyril of Jerusalem
Then we make mention also of those who have already fallen asleep: first, the patriarchs, prophets, apostles, and martyrs, that through their prayers and supplications God would receive our petition, next, we make mention also of the holy fathers and bishops who have already fallen asleep, and, to put it simply, of all among us who have already fallen asleep. For we believe that it will be of very great benefit to the souls of those for whom the petition is carried up, while this holy and most solemn sacrifice is laid out (Catechetical Lectures 23:5:9 A.D. 350]).
John Chrysostom
*Let us help and commemorate them. If Job’s sons were purified by their father’s sacrifice [Job l:5), why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them (Homilies on First Corinthians 41:5 A.D. 392]).
Augustine
There is an ecclesiastical discipline, as the faithful know, when the names of the martyrs are read aloud in that place at the altar of God, where prayer is not offered for them. Prayer, however, is offered for other dead who are remembered. It is wrong to pray for a martyr, to whose prayers we ought ourselves be commended (Sermons 159:1 A.D. 411]).
Temporal punishments are suffered by some in this life only, by some after death, by some both here and hereafter, but all of them before that last and strictest judgment. But not all who suffer temporal punishments after death will come to eternal punishments, which are to follow after that judgment (The City of God 21:13 A.D. 419]).
That there should be some fire even after this life is not incredible, and it can be inquired into and either be discovered or left hidden whether some of the faithful may be saved, some more slowly and some more quickly in the greater or lesser degree in which they loved the good things that perish, through a certain purgatorial fire (Handbook on Faith, Hope, and Charity l8:69 A.D. 421]).
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Matariel
Guest
I guess you missed or ignored my last post a few pages back. You might want to look it over. It most definitely is taught implicitly in Scripture.
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josie_L
Guest
I didn’t think I had to ask, but I put the scriptures for you to read and enboldened the parts I thought were interesting. And I’ll give you an explanation when you give me yours first. I thank you in advance.
P.S. If it is a popular argument against eternal security, then maybe there’s a reason for it.
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Jerry_Marino
Guest
law abiding citizens:
A digression: if the Mosaic law, then, does not save or bring life, why was it given? Elsewhere, Paul says the law served to show that sin is (Romans 3:20; 7:7-8). Here the further implication is that the law in effect served to produce transgressions. Moreover, it was received at second hand by angels, through a mediator, not directly from God (Gal 3:19). The law does not, however, oppose God’s purposes, for it carries out its function (Gal 3:22), so that righteousness comes by faith and promise, not by human works of the law.
God bless
A digression: if the Mosaic law, then, does not save or bring life, why was it given? Elsewhere, Paul says the law served to show that sin is (Romans 3:20; 7:7-8). Here the further implication is that the law in effect served to produce transgressions. Moreover, it was received at second hand by angels, through a mediator, not directly from God (Gal 3:19). The law does not, however, oppose God’s purposes, for it carries out its function (Gal 3:22), so that righteousness comes by faith and promise, not by human works of the law.
God bless
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brian231
Guest
What authority does the catholic church have to interpet the Bible as they do which is bordering on blasphemy?
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MrS
Guest
The Authority of Jesus the Christ, as given to His Apostles and their successors, and as eventually recorded in the canonized Scriptures.
On the other hand, no other group can rationally claim any authority other than that which comes from their own man or woman founder.
For those beliefs which we share, we are flattered… by the imitation… and saddened by the those which are rejected. We can avoid the frustration and have peace of mind knowing that God will convert in His time.
.
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elvisman
Guest
As MrS has already stated:
"The Authority of Jesus the Christ, as given to His Apostles and their successors, and as eventually recorded in the canonized Scriptures."
Here is the some of the proof, as recorded in the Scriptures:
Matt 16:19
**“I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.” **
Matt 18:18
"Amen, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."
Luke 10:16
**"Whoever *listens to you listens to *me. Whoever rejects you rejects me. And whoever rejects me rejects the one who sent me."
John 16:13-15
**"But when he comes, the Spirit of truth, he will guide you to all truth. He will not speak on his own, but he will speak what he hears, and will declare to you the things that are coming. **
**He will glorify me, because he will take from what is mine and declare it to you. **
Everything that the Father has is mine; for this reason I told you that he will take from what is mine and declare it to you."
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