Protestants how to you get by without confession

[SteveVH]

Aren’t we all a Priesthood? Don’t we all receive the Holy Spirit?

We are all part of the common priesthood by virtue of our Baptism, but we are not all part of the ministerial priesthood.

*"The characteristics which differentiate the ministerial priesthood of Bishops and Priests from the common priesthood of the faithful and consequently delineate the extent to which other members of the faithful cooperate with this ministry, may be summarized in the following fashion:

a. the ministerial priesthood is rooted in the Apostolic Succession, and vested with “potestas sacra”[29] consisting of the faculty and the responsibility of acting in the person of Christ the Head and the Shepherd.[30]

b. it is a priesthood which renders its sacred ministers servants of Christ and of the Church by means of authoritative proclamation of the Word of God, the administration of the sacraments and the pastoral direction of the faithful.[31]"* (The Catholic Religious Library)

Christ gave this authority to his Apostles and their successors, not to everyone. The ministerial priesthood is related to, but not the same as the common priesthood of the faithful. They have different functions.

 

[SteveVH]

All good info. Just curious, SteveVH. Can you describe what some of these aids to confession are and you do have any links to them? I am always open to confessing my sins more effectively to God.

The best I have seen is basically an amplification of the Ten Commandments. In other words, I may not have killed someone today, but did I kill or damage their reputation through gossip? I may not have stolen an item from another person, but did I waste time at work and therefore steal from my employer? I may not have slept with another woman, but have I broken fidelity to my wife by watching porn? I may not have missed Mass on Sunday, but did I keep the Lord’s day holy, all day long? You get the point. As you go through the Commandments and ask the probing questions many things come to light.

 

[SteveVH]

I feel that I can speak on this as my mother grew up Protestant and converted quite a ways into my parents’ marriage. Simply put, they believe that their faith in Jesus Christ saves them and that they can pray privately for the forgiveness that they need. My mother probably has only had one confession when she first converted a little over 10 years ago. I try to confess at least once a year, but to be honest, I don’t ever feel this pull that I am going to fall apart without a confession. I think that although I am a “cradle Catholic”, my mother did not set that example of “Catholic guilt” for me and so I don’t panic about confession (dad isn’t all that devout). I do like talking with the priest and feel better for having done it, but I can’t say that my guilt when I haven’t been in a while eats at me. I don’t know…maybe it should…

We can become callous to our sins. We should actually pray for contrition. Good old “Catholic guilt” may be nothing more than a good conscience. So you’re right. Maybe it should eat at you.

 

[SteveVH]

Yes, thanks Steve and you are completely right, and I used to go to confession and have peace afterwards, but gradually OCD issues got complicated and I came to dread the process of this important sacrament, so sometimes I react in anger about it on a discussion and I regret it after!
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My last confession was healing and I may try it again at some point. In the meantime I don’t receive communion until that is resolved.

I will pray for you. Tonight. And remember, unless you are in mortal sin you can still receive the Eucharist and should. It will strengthen you and give you courage. I think most of us dread going to confession to some degree, but what we really dread is facing and admitting our own sinfulness. None of us dreads being forgiven and that is why we are really there. We have a merciful God who looks down the road waiting for us to return to him.

 

[benhur]

We are all part of the common priesthood by virtue of our Baptism, but we are not all part of the ministerial priesthood.

*"The characteristics which differentiate the ministerial priesthood of Bishops and Priests from the common priesthood of the faithful and consequently delineate the extent to which other members of the faithful cooperate with this ministry, may be summarized in the following fashion:

a. the ministerial priesthood is rooted in the Apostolic Succession, and vested with “potestas sacra”[29] consisting of the faculty and the responsibility of acting in the person of Christ the Head and the Shepherd.[30]

b. it is a priesthood which renders its sacred ministers servants of Christ and of the Church by means of authoritative proclamation of the Word of God, the administration of the sacraments and the pastoral direction of the faithful.[31]"* (The Catholic Religious Library)

Christ gave this authority to his Apostles and their successors, not to everyone. The ministerial priesthood is related to, but not the same as the common priesthood of the faithful. They have different functions.

pure OT

 

[CatholicSheila]

Thanks for correcting that, CatholicSheila.

By the way, are most Catholic confessions done face to face with a priest or is there some sort of screen or covered booth that prevents the two from seeing each other like I saw in some old Catholic cathedrals in Europe? Just curious.

A confession can be made sitting in a chair facing the Priest or kneeling behind a screen. When kneeling it doesn’t necessarily mean the priest can’t see you. The “screen” is usually wooded and has fairly large slats so if the Priest faces the screen it does not prevent him seeing you.

I have heard that in some parishes there is only the option to sit facing the priest but at every Church I have attended the confessional is set up to give both choices. It is the choice of the person making the confession which method you use.

I don’t know which is more commonly used. I kneel behind the screen. I find that it helps keep me in the right frame of mind.

 

[benhur]

“Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The fervent prayer of a righteous person is very powerful.” ~James 5:16~

“Therefore, confess your faults one to another…” KJV
like Matt 5:23 " leave thy gift at the altar and be reconciled to your brother and then come offer" nothing about confessing sins to a priest. First church confessed one lay person to another per Matt and then later developed before entire congregation and much much later to a minister and finally a millennia or more to a minister in a confessional. So protestants get by without confessional as did the first church. The apostles did not hold confessional times. The first bishops did not hold confessional times.

 

[benhur]

When I was an evangelical I always felt angry and distraught with what to do with my sins. I was raised catholic but don’t think it had a major influence regarding confession since I went only once as a 7 year old and didn’t go again until I was 33 returning to the church. I needed to go to counciling a lot when u was away from the church also.

So my question ?
Tonight I committed a sin; not mortal but looked back at the last week and noticed a had a string of venial sins that was out of character and am looking forward to confession tomorrow. If I was a Protestant I would feel completely unfulfilled and lost just talking to God without a priests help how do you feel at peace without the guidance of a trained theologian ?

Again, talking to Jesus is not enough ? I thought you enter the church and kneel for some private reflection between you and the Lord as to your "sins’’. How else are you to know what to tell the priest,with out God’s help ? As David says, "if there be any uncleaness in me, show me Lord ". So as a Catholic you are to have this reflective even penitent time with the Lord first, then out of obedience go to the priest for absolution by rite/sacrament. So not directly from the Lord but indirectly, thru intermediary are you forgiven. Point is we both go before the Lord first and hence no one is "lost or "unfulfilled’ before Him like you suggest but let each be convinced as to how the Lord works.

 

[SteveVH]

pure OT

Would you mind elaborating?

 

[SteveVH]

So protestants get by without confessional as did the first church.

Do you think the Catholic Church (the “first church”) was not aware of its own authority to forgive or not to forgive sins? What it is that you believe Christ meant when he said to the Apostles “Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them and whose sins you retain are retained”?

 

[Cat]

Again, talking to Jesus is not enough ? I thought you enter the church and kneel for some private reflection between you and the Lord as to your "sins’’. How else are you to know what to tell the priest,with out God’s help ? As David says, "if there be any uncleaness in me, show me Lord ". So as a Catholic you are to have this reflective even penitent time with the Lord first, then out of obedience go to the priest for absolution by rite/sacrament. So not directly from the Lord but indirectly, thru intermediary are you forgiven. Point is we both go before the Lord first and hence no one is "lost or "unfulfilled’ before Him like you suggest but let each be convinced as to how the Lord works.

When I was an Evangelical Protestant, I would have agreed with you because I didn’t know.

But having experienced the Sacrament of Reconciliation on a fairly-regular basis, I testify that it is so very healing and uplifting. It is not of this world.

The priest is not an intermediary at all. Rather, he stands in for Jesus Himself.

When I go to Confession, I am not speaking with a priest. It is not the priest who forgives my sins, it is Jesus, the Lord. He uses the priest’s body and mouth to make His forgiveness to visible and audible to me and the other penitents.

I know that you are familiar with the concept of “being Jesus to others.” When we help a missionary build a clinic overseas, we are Jesus to the nationals who are observing and often helping out. When we go to the local jail to visit the prisoners, we are Jesus to the prisoners. When we teach VBS or AWANAs, we are Jesus to the children.

One of my Baptist pastors once told the story of a little girl who routinely greeted him by saying, “Hi, Jesus!”

This isn’t just a “Christian-style positive thinking technique.” When we are Christians yielding ourselves to God’s will, we literally, truly, have Christ in US (the hope of glory!).

And that’s what the priest is doing in the Confessional–he IS Jesus to us. We can see (sometimes, when there is no screen) and hear Jesus speak words of forgiveness to us and it is incredibly healing and restorative.

I wish that Protestants could experience confession with a priest at least once. It’s nothing at all like the confessions that Protestants make one to another in various small group settings or with their prayer partner or even with their pastor. The Sacrament of Reconciliation is stepping out of this world into God’s realm. God uses our very humanity and our human needs to see and hear to accomplish His very spiritual work of forgiveness of our sins and restoration to Himself.

This is the way that God intended for Christians to repent and be forgiven and restored to full fellowship with Jesus and His Church. It’s in the Bible, and it’s described over and over in the various church histories written in the earliest days of the Church. In modern times, we have chosen to go against this way and relegate confession and forgiveness to a mental exercise within ourselves. It works for Protestants because God is merciful and does not hold it against them that they obey their parents and elders and do what they have been taught. But it’s not what God intended.

 

[benhur]

Do you think the Catholic Church (the “first church”) was not aware of its own authority to forgive or not to forgive sins? What it is that you believe Christ meant when he said to the Apostles “Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them and whose sins you retain are retained”?

I think you know the common P interpretation on the matter and we both agree sins are forgiven by the Blood as per the Good news and reception of it. Per your interpretation don’t recall apostles individually and or thru bishops they appointed heard everyone’s confession.

 

[benhur]

]When I was an Evangelical Protestant, I would have agreed with you because I didn’t know.

Sorry ,but that is your experience and not that of others, but thank you for sharing

The priest is not an intermediary at all. Rather, he stands in for Jesus Himself.

Understand, and sensed my wording was inadequate, but still, it seems like some semantic gymnastics, or double talk. Representative, intermediary, go between are quite similar.

When I go to Confession, I am not speaking with a priest. It is not the priest who forgives my sins, it is Jesus, the Lord. He uses the priest’s body and mouth to make His forgiveness to visible and audible to me and the other penitents.

Well he is posessd or transubstantiated , is what that reminds me of. No, you are speaking to a priest, what you spoke to Jesus before entering the confessional during your contemplation time and yes , the priest represents Jesus…It just seems like you need Jesus made visible (thru priest), “when blessed are those who do not see but believe”, but I understand your belief is out of obedience to CC teaching.

This isn’t just a “Christian-style positive thinking technique.” When we are Christians yielding ourselves to God’s will, we literally, truly, have Christ in US (the hope of glory!).

That is right, that is why we can confide in one another, etc. even confess our faults to one another.

And that’s what the priest is doing in the Confessional–he IS Jesus to us. We can see (sometimes, when there is no screen) and hear Jesus speak words of forgiveness to us and it is incredibly healing and restorative.

Understand. We get the same healing from Jesus speaking to us also.

This is the way that God intended for Christians to repent and be forgiven and restored to full fellowship with Jesus and His Church. It’s in the Bible, and it’s described over and over in the various church histories written in the earliest days of the Church.

Disagree with your history .The first church did not have confessionals and bishops did not hear confessions as today unless perhaps it was a sin against the local body directly(denying Christ to get out of persecution)

In modern times, we have chosen to go against this way and relegate confession and forgiveness to a mental exercise within ourselves. It works for Protestants because God is merciful and does not hold it against them that they obey their parents and elders and do what they have been taught. But it’s not what God intended.

We do have reconciliation and brotherly interaction with repentance and forgiveness. All sin is against the Lord and the Spirit would lead us to confess to Him first.

 

[benhur]

Would you mind elaborating?

zero difference between ot and your nt definitions, layers, tiers of “priesthood”.

 

[JonNC]

=QNDNNDQDCE;12247075]You are probably right that what I said does not accurately represent Lutheran teaching on “the keys,” but I think that is probably at least the thought of most Protestants who practice private confession. It is hard to be completely fair when you are trying to make broad generalizations.

Agreed.

As for Lutherans in particular, if not in official doctrine, what I said nevertheless appears to be the case in practice. From my own observation, the practice of private confession is entirely neglected or at best rarely practiced among most Lutherans.

Not entiorely, but far too much, that is true, sadly, at least here in America. It is, however, being “rediscovered”. As I understand it, seminaries are encouraging a re-emphasis of it in parish ministry.

As to Lutheran doctrine, my understanding is that even Lutherans with a high regard for the sacrament of confession (or as they prefer it, absolution) would not hold that it is necessary for salvation as Catholics do.

And yet we do recognize the necessity of continued confession and seeking Absolution, as He calls us to do so, and provides this special vehicle for it within the Church. Again, part of the difference is the ways we each view mortal and venial sins.

That was really what I was getting at. My point is not that Protestants can’t counsel each other because of their diverging views and practices, which might be inferred from the OP, but rather that Protestants, even if they do practice private confession, as Andrew pointed out, do not believe the same things about it as Catholics, so they have a parallel thing and not the same thing as Catholics. That’s all I meant. Nothing more or less.

Jon

 

[JonNC]

Thank you, that is a wealth of information. The ordination vow includes absolving sins. Why would Lutherans practice holy Absolution if a layman could do it? I believe, however that a layman could say the words of assurance, in the absence of a pastor. I need Jon’s insight.

The power of the keys is a power given to the Church.
Smalcald:

The keys are an office and power given by Christ to the Church for binding and loosing sin, not only the gross and well-known sins, but also the subtle, hidden, which are known only to God, as it is written in Ps. 19:13: Who can understand his errors? And in Rom. 7:25 St. Paul himself complains that with the flesh he serves the law of sin. 2] For it is not in our power, but belongs to God alone, to judge which, how great, and how many the sins are, as it is written in Ps. 143:2: Enter not into judgment with Thy servant; for in Thy sight shall no man living be justified. 3] And Paul says, 1 Cor. 4:4: For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified.

Therefore, the power of absolving is controlled by the Church, and the Church makes available the sacrament through the ordained ministerial priesthood. The Apology references “pastors” in its accounting of confession.

66] If the pastors are good men, they will know how far it is of advantage to examine [the young and otherwise] inexperienced persons; but we do not wish to sanction the torture [the tyranny of consciences] of the Summists, which notwithstanding would have been less intolerable if they had added one word concerning faith, which comforts and encourages consciences.

Jon

 

[EvangelCatholic]

The power of the keys is a power given to the Church.
Smalcald:

Therefore, the power of absolving is controlled by the Church, and the Church makes available the sacrament through the ordained ministerial priesthood. The Apology references “pastors” in its accounting of confession.

Jon

Thanks for the information.

I tend to agree based on the number of Lutheran parishes that designate times for private confession that the practice is growing though slowly. But 15 minutes before Mass is very short for both the penitent and confessor. Parishes that advertise may have more than one pastor because it is extremely busy for the celebrant before the Eucharist service just getting ready for the Liturgy. We have ‘quiet days’ several times a year [mostly on Saturdays] where individuals are encouraged to stay as long as they like in prayer and Bible study. Holy Absolution is encouraged on Quiet Days just like at retreats.

Frankly, I think Lutherans are fairly active in seeking holy Absolution but most find that public confession is the most convenient.

 

[SteveVH]

zero difference between ot and your nt definitions, layers, tiers of “priesthood”.

And…

 

[SteveVH]

I think you know the common P interpretation on the matter and we both agree sins are forgiven by the Blood as per the Good news and reception of it. Per your interpretation don’t recall apostles individually and or thru bishops they appointed heard everyone’s confession.

If the Bible was an exhaustive account of everything the Apostles said and did I might tend to agree with you, but it obviously was not. What we do know from Scripture is that Christ gave the Church, very clearly, the authority to forgive sins and you have failed to address this fact, other than to acknowledge that “I know this is what you believe”. My question is: What do you believe Christ meant when he said to the Apostles: “whose sins you forgive are forgiven and whose sins you retain are retained”. You cannot simply ignore these words.

 

[Theo520]

If the Bible was an exhaustive account of everything the Apostles said and did I might tend to agree with you, but it obviously was not. What we do know from Scripture is that Christ gave the Church, very clearly, the authority to forgive sins and you have failed to address this fact, other than to acknowledge that “I know this is what you believe”. My question is: What do you believe Christ meant when he said to the Apostles: “whose sins you forgive are forgiven and whose sins you retain are retained”. You cannot simply ignore these words.

Steve, scripture hardly paints forgiveness through the Apostles as the only route to forgiveness by Christ. Beyond the inferred advice to *‘DON’T **** OFF AN APOSTLE’ *there are no limitations expressed in your quote.

Matthew 6:14-16 For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.

Acts 10:43 - To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

Romans 10:13 - For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Acts 3:19 - Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

James 5:16 - Confess [your] faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.