Protestants how to you get by without confession

[Isaiah45_9]

So how then do you interpret this:

1 Peter 2:9 But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light.

And of course as Christians we have received the Holy Spirit. Are we unable to teach others that their sins have been forgiven? Interestingly enough when the Bible mentions confession it says such things as this:

James 5:16 Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person has great power as it is working.

In the CC however it seems normal to confess to one Priest for forgiveness. Although I’m sure the CC teaches it to be right to confess sins to one another, in Evangelical Churches it is strongly encouraged. Accountability partners, small groups, etc to help us fight and confess our sins.

Everywhere in the NT when sins are confessed it is implied that this is done to everyone, not just to a Priest. Even when we do Baptisms the person being Baptized is encouraged to confess their sins in front of the entire Church, which numbers in the high hundreds to 1000 people.

Yes, the priesthood of believers. I’ve posted this before but maybe not with conversations with you.

If we look at the whole of Scriptures, we can see different orders in Church Government.

1. 
   *]We (those that are not ordained) are the laity. We are known as “saints” Romans 1:7). And yes, we are also a priesthood. We can look at a little more in 1st Peter here: 1 Peter 2:4-10. Where priesthood is mentioned twice. So yes we are a priesthood. But when we look at the rest of Scriptures, we see that there are orders in this priesthood.
   *]We see the Deacons in 1 Timothy 3:8-13 and in Acts 6:3. So we see different responsibilities between the Deacons and the rest of the laity. However, the Deacons are still part of the laity because they come from them. That does not mean that all the laity has the same responsibility as the Deacons.
   
   *]We see the Presbyters/Elders (Priests) in 1 Timothy 5:17, in Acts 14:23 and in Titus 1:5. This is not the same Levite Priesthood. This is a Priesthood under our High Priest - Jesus Christ. These Priests are charged to preaching and teaching, as indicated in 1 Tim 5:17 above. However, the Priests also come from the laity. That does not mean that all the laity has the same responsibility as the Priests. Or that the Deacons have the same responsibility as the Priest.
   
   *]We also see the Bishops (Overseers and also Elders at times) in 1 Timothy 3:1-2 and in Titus 1:7-9. The Bishops “oversee” the laity and the ordained (Deacons and Priests) in an assigned area. When we look at the Church’s 1st Council in Jerusalem in Acts 15, specifically verse 6 - we see that the non-ordained laity was not there to determine the Church’s direction - it was “The Apostles and the Elders”. The leadership of the Church. However, the Bishops also come from the laity. That does not mean that all the laity has the same responsibilities as the Bishops. Or that the Deacons and the Priests have the same responsibility as the Bishop.
   
   And this order has been carried out since our Lord established His Church with the
   
   Apostles and the Apostles then established more of His Churches throughout the world.
   
   When we read the Church Fathers this is incredibly clear and irrevocable.
   
   So just because we are part of the priesthood - it does not mean that we have the same calling and responsibility of those who are ordained.
   
   After all Hebrews 13:17 supports the rest of Scriptures (of course )
   *
   17 Obey your leaders and submit to them; for they are keeping watch over your souls, as men who will have to give account. Let them do this joyfully, and not sadly, for that would be of no advantage to you.*

 

[dronald]

Yes, the priesthood of believers. I’ve posted this before but maybe not with conversations with you.

If we look at the whole of Scriptures, we can see different orders in Church Government.

1. 
   *]We (those that are not ordained) are the laity. We are known as “saints” Romans 1:7). And yes, we are also a priesthood. We can look at a little more in 1st Peter here: 1 Peter 2:4-10. Where priesthood is mentioned twice. So yes we are a priesthood. But when we look at the rest of Scriptures, we see that there are orders in this priesthood.
   *]We see the Deacons in 1 Timothy 3:8-13 and in Acts 6:3. So we see different responsibilities between the Deacons and the rest of the laity. However, the Deacons are still part of the laity because they come from them. That does not mean that all the laity has the same responsibility as the Deacons.
   
   *]We see the Presbyters/Elders (Priests) in 1 Timothy 5:17, in Acts 14:23 and in Titus 1:5. This is not the same Levite Priesthood. This is a Priesthood under our High Priest - Jesus Christ. These Priests are charged to preaching and teaching, as indicated in 1 Tim 5:17 above. However, the Priests also come from the laity. That does not mean that all the laity has the same responsibility as the Priests. Or that the Deacons have the same responsibility as the Priest.
   
   *]We also see the Bishops (Overseers and also Elders at times) in 1 Timothy 3:1-2 and in Titus 1:7-9. The Bishops “oversee” the laity and the ordained (Deacons and Priests) in an assigned area. When we look at the Church’s 1st Council in Jerusalem in Acts 15, specifically verse 6 - we see that the non-ordained laity was not there to determine the Church’s direction - it was “The Apostles and the Elders”. The leadership of the Church. However, the Bishops also come from the laity. That does not mean that all the laity has the same responsibilities as the Bishops. Or that the Deacons and the Priests have the same responsibility as the Bishop.
   
   And this order has been carried out since our Lord established His Church with the
   
   Apostles and the Apostles then established more of His Churches throughout the world.
   
   When we read the Church Fathers this is incredibly clear and irrevocable.
   
   So just because we are part of the priesthood - it does not mean that we have the same calling and responsibility of those who are ordained.
   
   After all Hebrews 13:17 supports the rest of Scriptures (of course )
   *
   17 Obey your leaders and submit to them; for they are keeping watch over your souls, as men who will have to give account. Let them do this joyfully, and not sadly, for that would be of no advantage to you.*

1. 
   So you use words like Priests and Bishops. Why don’t Catholics more commonly call them Presbyter’s, elders and overseer’s?

 

[Isaiah45_9]

So you use words like Priests and Bishops. Why don’t Catholics more commonly call them Presbyter’s, elders and overseer’s?

The question is backwards my friend.

Protestant translations changed the words Priests (Presbyteros) and Bishops (Episkopos) so they wouldn’t sound too Catholic.

 

[dronald]

The question is backwards my friend.

Protestant translations changed the words Priests (Presbyteros) and Bishops (Episkopos) so they wouldn’t sound too Catholic.

Priesthood=hierateuma
Priest =hiereus

Your Presbyteros means Elder does it not? Even here:

Matt 21:23And when he entered the temple, the chief priests (archiereis) and the elders (presbyteroi) of the people came up to him as he was teaching

 

[Michael1978]

So how then do you interpret this:

James 5:16 Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person has great power as it is working.

In the CC however it seems normal to confess to one Priest for forgiveness. Although I’m sure the CC teaches it to be right to confess sins to one another, in Evangelical Churches it is strongly encouraged. Accountability partners, small groups, etc to help us fight and confess our sins.

Everywhere in the NT when sins are confessed it is implied that this is done to everyone, not just to a Priest. Even when we do Baptisms the person being Baptized is encouraged to confess their sins in front of the entire Church, which numbers in the high hundreds to 1000 people.

What the verse in James does not say is that confession to one another leads to forgiveness of sins. Certainly it can lead to healing and we should ask our brothers and sisters to pray for us to heal our inclination toward sinful behaviors.

You might have mentioned it earlier in the thread, but may I ask what denomination you belong to? I was born, raised and baptized an evangelical Southern Baptist and I have never heard of a person confessing their sins at the baptismal pool in front of the entire church! Thanks be to God for the confines of the confessional!

 

[dronald]

What the verse in James does not say is that confession to one another leads to forgiveness of sins. Certainly it can lead to healing and we should ask our brothers and sisters to pray for us to heal our inclination toward sinful behaviors.

Yes it does.

5:15 And the prayer of faith will save the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up. And if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven.

16 Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person has great power as it is working.

The word therefore in verse 16 draws a bridge from verse 15. Therefore we cannot disconnect the two.

You might have mentioned it earlier in the thread, but may I ask what denomination you belong to? I was born, raised and baptized an evangelical Southern Baptist and I have never heard of a person confessing their sins at the baptismal pool in front of the entire church! Thanks be to God for the confines of the confessional!

It’s not obligatory, but it certainly is encouraged. And why wouldn’t it be? And who wouldn’t want to?

Those who stand confessing are speaking of their old life. “This is what I used to do, but Jesus my life is yours now.” It’s beautiful.

I’m an Evangelical Christian.

 

[Michael1978]

Yes it does.

5:15 And the prayer of faith will save the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up. And if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven.

16 Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person has great power as it is working.

The word therefore in verse 16 draws a bridge from verse 15. Therefore we cannot disconnect the two.

It’s not obligatory, but it certainly is encouraged. And why wouldn’t it be? And who wouldn’t want to?

Those who stand confessing are speaking of their old life. “This is what I used to do, but Jesus my life is yours now.” It’s beautiful.

I’m an Evangelical Christian.

Ah, let’s look at 13 and 14 as well:

13 Is anyone among you in trouble? Let them pray. Is anyone happy? Let them sing songs of praise. 14 Is anyone among you sick? Let them call the elders of the church to pray over them and anoint them with oil in the name of the Lord. 15 And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise them up. If they have sinned, they will be forgiven. 16 Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person is powerful and effective.

Do you believe that the Bible is the inerrant, infallible, inspired Word of God?

 

[dronald]

Ah, let’s look at 13 and 14 as well:

Honest question; are you now changing your interpretation from “It only says they will be healed” to “They are only to confess to elders”? Or would you say both now?

Do you believe that the Bible is the inerrant, infallible, inspired Word of God?

Yes, of course.

 

[Per_Crucem]

Priesthood=hierateuma
Priest =hiereus

Your Presbyteros means Elder does it not? Even here:

Matt 21:23And when he entered the temple, the chief priests (archiereis) and the elders (presbyteroi) of the people came up to him as he was teaching

The English word priest is derived from presbyter (Latin praestus, Anglo-French prest).

 

[dronald]

The English word priest is derived from presbyter (Latin praestus, Anglo-French prest).

So what’s the difference between presbyter and hiereus when speaking of Greek?

 

[Isaiah45_9]

Priesthood=hierateuma
Priest =hiereus

Your Presbyteros means Elder does it not? Even here:

Matt 21:23And when he entered the temple, the chief priests (archiereis) and the elders (presbyteroi) of the people came up to him as he was teaching

Per Crucem already addressed this.

Being honest here, please don’ take this wrong. But it seems that once I covered one of your questions you move unto the next without settling the original one.

Quid Pro Quo.

1. You asked about the priesthood of believers:
   Did you see the Scriptural difference in the priesthood of believers and the Church hierarchy?
2. Then you asked about the terminology.
3. You furthered asked about one of the terms.
   Did you see how the translation changed (In some) to avoid Catholic terminology?

Both of these issues are completely satisfied.

Doesn’t it raise some flags for you?

 

[Per_Crucem]

So what’s the difference between presbyter and hiereus when speaking of Greek?

A lot. When the Greek uses the term hiereus, it is generally (though not always) referring back to the Levitical priesthood of the Old Testament. The term presbyter refers to a distinct office of the New Covenant.

Catholics (and others) would not be referring to the Old Covenant Levitical priesthood, though. They would be referring to the NT office of presbyter (or diakonos or episkopos).

 

[Isaiah45_9]

So what’s the difference between presbyter and hiereus when speaking of Greek?

You may want to talk to a native speaker of Koine Greek. Not today’s Greek.

But if you look at the actual practice of the Church throughout history. This is answered.

For your benefit:

ἐπισκοπή (Bishop) πρεσβύτερος (Priest)

 

[Isaiah45_9]

Priesthood=hierateuma
Priest =hiereus

Your Presbyteros means Elder does it not? Even here:

Matt 21:23And when he entered the temple, the chief priests (archiereis) and the elders (presbyteroi) of the people came up to him as he was teaching

You are also taking priesthood out of the context of the passage. This passage has nothing to do with Church hierarchy and speak of general terms. The other passages I provided for you are very specific as to Church hierarchy and order.

It must be seen in context.

 

[dronald]

Per Crucem already addressed this.

Being honest here, please don’ take this wrong. But it seems that once I covered one of your questions you move unto the next without settling the original one.

Quid Pro Quo.

A lot of my questions are because I don’t know the Catholic position. I’m not necessarily here to argue what you believe, I just want to know for sure what it is you believe and how you interpret certain things.

To be honest when the levitical word for “Priest” is given to the laity, and words like overseer or Elder with actual definitions (one in authority, etc, etc) are turned to words like “Priest” and the explanation falls outside what is defined in the Bible, I get a little suspicious.

1. You asked about the priesthood of believers:
   Did you see the Scriptural difference in the priesthood of believers and the Church hierarchy?
2. Then you asked about the terminology.
3. You furthered asked about one of the terms.
   Did you see how the translation changed (In some) to avoid Catholic terminology?

Both of these issues are completely satisfied.

Doesn’t it raise some flags for you?

When referring to the Priesthood of believers the Greek gives the same word that it gives for the levitical Priests. When referring to elders you say it should translate the same way to English as the Levitical Priest translation. I even posted a passage that says “Chief Priests and Elders” Elders being the same Presbyteros we use now.

So I get confused how this all can be explained in light of Catholic practice.

Also, my objections to confession went unnoticed by yourself. Our way vs your way, which I personally believe ours is more Biblical.

 

[dronald]

A lot. When the Greek uses the term hiereus, it is generally (though not always) referring back to the Levitical priesthood of the Old Testament. The term presbyter refers to a distinct office of the New Covenant.

Catholics (and others) would not be referring to the Old Covenant Levitical priesthood, though. They would be referring to the NT office of presbyter (or diakonos or episkopos).

Then why does the translation of Matthew that I posted have “elder” when referring to certain opponents of Jesus’s message?

 

[dronald]

You are also taking priesthood out of the context of the passage. This passage has nothing to do with Church hierarchy and speak of general terms. The other passages I provided for you are very specific as to Church hierarchy and order.

It must be seen in context.

Elder here clearly speaks as one in Authority and that’s what Paul speaks of in his letters. It makes sense that the same word is used for opponents as it is for Christians.

 

[Per_Crucem]

Then why does the translation of Matthew that I posted have “elder” when referring to certain opponents of Jesus’s message?

It does. It’s not, however, referring to the same office that is discussed in Paul’s pastoral epistles and elsewhere, since the Christian offices would not be related to Jewish counterparts.

 

[dronald]

It does. It’s not, however, referring to the same office that is discussed in Paul’s pastoral epistles and elsewhere, since the Christian offices would not be related to Jewish counterparts.

I’m not speaking of offices, rather what the translation of the word really means. When Matthew says “Elder” it means someone in charge; likewise Paul uses that word because he’s defining positions. So to claim it means “Priest” as in mediator, as a Priest in Levitical times would be a Priest is false. That’s why I think it’s odd to call Priests Priests.

Likewise when Peter says “Priest” he’s speaking of us and truly does use the same word for the Levitical Priests.

 

[Per_Crucem]

I’m not speaking of offices, rather what the translation of the word really means. When Matthew says “Elder” it means someone in charge; likewise Paul uses that word because he’s defining positions. So to claim it means “Priest” as in mediator, as a Priest in Levitical times would be a Priest is false. That’s why I think it’s odd to call Priests Priests.

But that is only because our English translations translate an OT priest as the word “priest.” The English word itself has no connection to the Hebrew priesthood.

The Levitical priesthood was mediatorial. However, just because the Levitical priesthood is defunct doesn’t mean that the NT priesthood does not involve mediatorial duties.

The Christian priesthood is based on the priesthood of Christ. Christ’s priesthood is mediatorial, yet it is not Levitical. The same is true of the priest who serves Christ.