Protestants in a Jewish Wrapper?

[nsper7]

Yes, that’s what I meant. Forgive me, I’m a little tired and my words aren’t flowing quite too well.

While I have a great respect for Jews and their tradition, it seems extremely bizarre for Christians to impose Jewish traditions on themselves and then saying “Aha! We’re just like the Apostles!” I’ll probably get a lot of flack for saying this, but I think it’s delusion.

In Christ,
Andrew

When I was visiting the Franciscan Custody of the Holy Land’s American monastery in Washington, DC, one of the new Candidates was a Hebrew Catholic and kept Kosher, honored the Sabbath (Friday evening to Saturday evening…obviously, I assume he always fulfilled his Sunday obligation as well on Sunday) and maintained many Jewish customs (i.e. he planned to fast on Yom Kippur, he wore a kippah, etc.), but he was also a very orthodox/Traditional (i.e. communion on the Tongue only, etc.) Catholic. So there are Catholics who try to honor Jewish customs and–as long as they do not seek to impose their actions on others, allow their observances to become a point of pride or do things that go against Catholic doctrine and teaching–it is okay what they do.

Association of Hebrew Catholics

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Option four for me, definitely.​

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

Yes, that’s what I meant. Forgive me, I’m a little tired and my words aren’t flowing quite too well.

While I have a great respect for Jews and their tradition, it seems extremely bizarre for Christians to impose Jewish traditions on themselves and then saying “Aha! We’re just like the Apostles!” I’ll probably get a lot of flack for saying this, but I think it’s delusion.

In Christ,
Andrew

I think “Hebrew Catholics” are ridiculous - if only I were Pope: I would chuck them out. Jews, fine: they don’t pretend to be what they are not. But HCs are neither fish nor foul.​

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

I will repeat this for you.

People here boast about “apostolic successsion”, but these Christians(Jews by birth) share alot in common with the first apostles, that they are persecuted by their own, but never giving up. They are called “traitors”, and are not considered Jewish anymore. Like the first apostles, they were considered outside the community and are always trying to be driven out. Judaizers try to slander Jews for Jesus, and even instruct gentiles to follow the Noahide laws. Jews for Jesus preach Jesus Christ to Gentiles for their salvation. They also teach that Gentiles are made one new man with the Jew in Jesus Christ.

**1 Thessolonians 2:14-16 **
For you, brothers, became imitators of God’s churches in Judea, which are in Christ Jesus: You suffered from your own countrymen the same things those churches suffered from the Jews, who killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets and also drove us out. They displease God and are hostile to all men in their effort to keep us from speaking to the Gentiles so that they may be saved. In this way they always heap up their sins to the limit. The wrath of God has come upon them at last.

Jews have been persecuted for hundreds of years. It is clear that the ones who are Christians(Messianics) have it the worst of Jews. They were even called “meshumad” or apostates by their Jewish brethern in concentration camps.

This is hardly “self-styled”.

How are HCs not Judaizers ? I’m glad the Jews gave them a rough time; so they should. If only the Church did ​

The way that the Church treated the Jews was diabolical - it’s astonishing that the Jews don’t Christians return evil for evil; they should.

 

[nsper7]

I think “Hebrew Catholics” are ridiculous - if only I were Pope: I would chuck them out. Jews, fine: they don’t pretend to be what they are not. But HCs are neither fish nor foul.​

As long as they obey the Church, it doesn’t really bother me if they wish to maintain their Jewish customs. You can’t chuck someone out of the Church because they do things you don’t like. It is their right to maintain Jewish customs, or any other thing like that, as they adhere to Church teachings and such.

Justin Martyr, in his Dialogue with Trypho the Jew, stated when asked by Trypho if he could keep Jewish laws after becoming Christian:

EarlyChurch.org.uk: Justin Martyr, the First Outstanding Apologist of the Second Century by Johnson Thomaskutty[/URL]]“Christians are not agreed on this. Some would say that you must give them up. Others, such as myself, would say that it would be quite all right for you, as a Jewish convert to Christianity, to keep kosher and otherwise observe the Law of Moses, provided that you did not try to compel other converts to do likewise, and provided that you clearly understand that keeping kosher will not save you. It is only Christ who saves you.”

 

[nsper7]

How are HCs not Judaizers ? I’m glad the Jews gave them a rough time; so they should. If only the Church did ​

I would they are not guilty of ‘Judaizing’ unless they:

A) Seek to compel other Catholics (whether of Jewish background or not) to obey the Jewish Laws
B) Claim that such Jewish Laws are or should be part of Catholic doctrine or discipline (similar to ‘A’)

And obviously, the keeping of such Jewish Laws cannot violate Catholic doctrine (i.e. although the Sabbath was, historically, on Saturday, the Catholic day of worship where one is obligated to attend Mass is Sunday…personally, having come from a not-very-religious Jewish background, I tend to call Sunday the Lord’s Day, and I think a lot of other Catholics do to)

 

[benidict]

“Kooks”? How uncharitable. Jews for Jesus are Christians that also preach Jesus Christ as Messiah to Gentiles. They are peaceful, they work aganist many obstacles in Israel in order to save Jews.

People here boast about “apostolic successsion”, but these Christians(Jews by birth) share alot in common with the first apostles, that they are persecuted by their own, but never giving up. They are called “traitors”, and are not considered Jewish anymore. Like the first apostles, they were considered outside the community and are always trying to be driven out. Judaizers try to slander Jews for Jesus, and even instruct gentiles to follow the Noahide laws. Jews for Jesus preach Jesus Christ to Gentiles for their salvation. They also teach that Gentiles are made one new man with the Jew in Jesus Christ.

1 Thessolonians 2:14-16
For you, brothers, became imitators of God’s churches in Judea, which are in Christ Jesus: You suffered from your own countrymen the same things those churches suffered from the Jews, who killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets and also drove us out. They displease God and are hostile to all men in their effort to keep us from speaking to the Gentiles so that they may be saved. In this way they always heap up their sins to the limit. The wrath of God has come upon them at last.

“…and are hostile to all men in their effort to keep us from speaking to the Gentiles so that they may be saved.”

Myself, I would not be calling these Chrisitans “kooks”

nor would i. to do so puts a person on dangerous ground. remember that before Christ returns there will be a huge ingathering of the jews who will see Jesus as their messiah. this may be the start of that. this is the work of the Holy Spirit, and these are our brothers in Christ. if it is the work
of the Holy Spirit. i would not want to be calling these brothers and sisters Kooks who are finally recognizing Jesus as messiah.:nope:

 

[Lev23]

Yes. kooks. I call them like I see them, and since the interaction I have had with this group is limited to campus proselytizers at the university where I took Arabic classes last year, perhaps my experience is not very informative of what the entire organization is about. I don’t mean to be rude, but I don’t really care if that is the case. Their silly tracts certainly inspired more disrespect and frivolity towards Christianity on the part of Jews that I knew than any of my individual friendships with Jews did over the same period. I’m not saying that this makes JFJ kooks by definition, but it certainly makes them LOOK like kooks, both to the Jews they are trying to reach and to gentile Christians like me. Don’t get me wrong, it’s not that I have any sort of problem with Jewish-background Christians. It’s a problem with the pop evangelism approach found in certain circles more than anything, and that’s not just limited to “Messianic Jews”.

Im not sure if you are orthodox or catholic, your religion says “struggling with God”. But no matter what you practice, why do you label uncharitable names towards other Christians? Is that how they should come to know what you believe in is the truth?

By the way, what is “pop evangelism approach”?

Peace in Jesus Christ to you.

 

[dzheremi]

Yes, by all means, people, let’s continue to distress ourselves over my choice of a word in a post on the internet and pretend that if we were talking about prosperity gospel folks, non-denominational protestants, or some other group that Catholics aren’t apparently so sensitive about we would still be making such a clamor. This is a perfectly reasonable reaction in light of my opinion that I have “a problem with the pop evangelism approach found in certain circles more than anything, and that’s not just limited to “Messianic Jews”.” Oh, how dare I!

Im not sure if you are orthodox or catholic

What difference would this make?

But no matter what you practice, why do you label uncharitable names towards other Christians?

Probably because, as I’ve already explained, that’s how the people of “Jews for Jesus” that I have come into contact with have seemed to me. I was unaware that I am disallowed from holding an opinion about an evangelical group if that particular group happens to made up of self-identified Jews. Would you have such a problem if I were to tell you that as a result of this group’s proselytizing techniques in the university situation I mentioned earlier I myself spent much more time than I normally would have during Arabic lessons defending the Christian position on the Messiah in the face of insults from other self-identified Jews (not “Jews for Jesus” Jews…uh…“regular” Jews or whatever you’d call them)? Again, were it not for the disrespect that their approach engendered in the people they were actually trying to reach, I might not have anything negative to say at all about this particular group.

Is that how they should come to know what you believe in is the truth?

I don’t see why it should matter, as the Jews I actually know were set straight on what it is I believe and why not by silly pamphlets and curbside sermons from the Jews For Jesus folks who they didn’t take seriously in the first place, but by my explaining to them the Christian position without calling ANYONE a kook. So, believe it or not, this post that I made a year later on a Catholic message board didn’t really come into play then, and continues to not come into play in my relations with any Jews in my day to day life now, and will forever remain similarly irrelevant in any interaction that I have with Jews in the future.

By the way, what is “pop evangelism approach”?

I’m glad you’ve asked. I would say that things like these pamphlets, which are virtually identical to the ones handed out on the campus I took my Arabic classes at, are a good example of what I mean. Maybe you don’t see anything wrong with them, but personally I wasn’t very surprised that they were completely inaffective and actually inspired derision in those who received them (and promptly threw them away, I might add).

Peace in Jesus Christ to you.

Et cum spiritu tuo.

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

As long as they obey the Church, it doesn’t really bother me if they wish to maintain their Jewish customs. You can’t chuck someone out of the Church because they do things you don’t like. It is their right to maintain Jewish customs, or any other thing like that, as they adhere to Church teachings and such.

Justin Martyr, in his Dialogue with Trypho the Jew, stated when asked by Trypho if he could keep Jewish laws after becoming Christian:

This:​

“Christians are not agreed on this. Some would say that you must give them up. Others, such as myself, would say that it would be quite all right for you, as a Jewish convert to Christianity, to keep kosher and otherwise observe the Law of Moses, provided that you did not try to compel other converts to do likewise, and provided that you clearly understand that keeping kosher will not save you. It is only Christ who saves you.”

*earlychurch.org.uk/article_justin-martyr_thomaskutty.html *

was 1850 years ago. Many things were allowed or tolerated then that no longer are. These people are falsifying the identity of Catholics, by trying to follow two, contradictory, religions. The Church has never tolerated such conduct in the past, and cannot do so now, without making its entire previous Tradition a lie. The seriousness of what is implied in allowing people to be Catholics & Jews at the same time, could not possibly be greater.

Either Christ **or **Beelzebub, either Christ or Mohammed, either Christ or Joseph Smith, either Christ **or **Moses: not both Christ and any (let alone all !) of these others. Christians of past generations could see this. What possible excuse can there be for confusing Christ and others now ? And what answer will be made to those who want to be Muslim Christians, Sikh Christians, Jain Christians, Hindu Christians, Devil-worshipping Christians ? Whatever may be said for these other religions, they do at least not pretend to be what they are not: if Hebrew “Catholics” are not told to choose Christ or Moses, but are allowed a bastardised “faith”, with all its evil consequences, why should not Catholics of other origins want their own bastardised Catholicism ? If one is allowed, why not those others ?

 

[nsper7]

was 1850 years ago. Many things were allowed or tolerated then that no longer are. These people are falsifying the identity of Catholics, by trying to follow two, contradictory, religions. The Church has never tolerated such conduct in the past, and cannot do so now, without making its entire previous Tradition a lie. The seriousness of what is implied in allowing people to be Catholics & Jews at the same time, could not possibly be greater.

Either Christ or Beelzebub, either Christ or Mohammed, either Christ or Joseph Smith, either Christ or Moses: not both Christ and any (let alone all !) of these others. Christians of past generations could see this. What possible excuse can there be for confusing Christ and others now ? And what answer will be made to those who want to be Muslim Christians, Sikh Christians, Jain Christians, Hindu Christians, Devil-worshipping Christians ? Whatever may be said for these other religions, they do at least not pretend to be what they are not: if Hebrew “Catholics” are not told to choose Christ or Moses, but are allowed a bastardised “faith”, with all its evil consequences, why should not Catholics of other origins want their own bastardised Catholicism ? If one is allowed, why not those others ?

Again, I must disagree. I think you are building a major strawman here. Hebrew Catholics wish to adhere to Jewish customs–the same sorts of customs Our Lord, Our Lady and the Apostles would have probably followed–while being orthodox Catholics. My understanding is that Church has never forbidden Catholics from practicing Jewish customs as long as they adhere to Catholic teaching and do not try to compel other Catholic, be they of Jewish lineage or not, to follow these customs.

Remember, my understanding was that St. Paul’s gripe with the Galatian Judaizers was not that they adhered to Jewish customs, but that they felt that such customs were more than mere private devotions, but were necessary for all Christians, especially if they came from a Jewish background, for their Salvation.

In the Middle Ages, the concern was with so-called Crypto-Jews who, although officially convert to Catholicism (often forced to convert), they did not accept Catholic teaching and doctrine and saw themselves as Jews who may have out of necessity pretended to be Catholic and would go so far as to spit the Eucharist out when they were alone or doing some kind of ritual to secretly overturn their Baptism.

Neither case is what modern Hebrew Catholics are doing. They are orthodox Catholics, obedient to the Magesterium, but practice certain Jewish customs as a private devotion.

 

[dachsiemom]

A few years ago I worked at a Jewish NH that is very Orthodox. One of my coworkers considered herself a Messianic Jew. She had been a Christian and now embraced Judism with a belief in Christ. She adhered to observing the Sabbath and holidays and kept kosher. Also, she is African-American. Unfortunately, I never did ask the Rabbi about how he looked upon Messianic Jews - would have been interesting.

Interestingly, a while back I was talking to my neighbor [who is Jewish and religious though not completely orthodox] and she was rather upset about a rally of Jews for Jesus that was taking place in the area. Said she would disown her kids if they were involved with such.

I now work in a different setting and one of my coworkers is an orthodox Jew and is a convert. She attends Temple daily and is observant of the Sabbath, keeps kosher, etc. We have had numerous conversations regarding religion. Interestingly she was raised Protestant with very little religious affiliation. Her Dad was in the seminary and left three months prior to being ordained a Roman Catholic priest. She converted to Judism as a teenager and been orthodox since her conversion - over 20 years ago. We talked one day about Messianic Jews. She said Jews give no recognition to the concept of Messianic Judism and they have no place in the Temple.

 

[Lev23]

Yes, by all means, people, let’s continue to distress ourselves over my choice of a word in a post on the internet and pretend that if we were talking about prosperity gospel folks, non-denominational protestants, or some other group that Catholics aren’t apparently so sensitive about we would still be making such a clamor. This is a perfectly reasonable reaction in light of my opinion that I have “a problem with the pop evangelism approach found in certain circles more than anything, and that’s not just limited to “Messianic Jews”.” Oh, how dare I!

What difference would this make?

Probably because, as I’ve already explained, that’s how the people of “Jews for Jesus” that I have come into contact with have seemed to me. I was unaware that I am disallowed from holding an opinion about an evangelical group if that particular group happens to made up of self-identified Jews. Would you have such a problem if I were to tell you that as a result of this group’s proselytizing techniques in the university situation I mentioned earlier I myself spent much more time than I normally would have during Arabic lessons defending the Christian position on the Messiah in the face of insults from other self-identified Jews (not “Jews for Jesus” Jews…uh…“regular” Jews or whatever you’d call them)? Again, were it not for the disrespect that their approach engendered in the people they were actually trying to reach, I might not have anything negative to say at all about this particular group.

I don’t see why it should matter, as the Jews I actually know were set straight on what it is I believe and why not by silly pamphlets and curbside sermons from the Jews For Jesus folks who they didn’t take seriously in the first place, but by my explaining to them the Christian position without calling ANYONE a kook. So, believe it or not, this post that I made a year later on a Catholic message board didn’t really come into play then, and continues to not come into play in my relations with any Jews in my day to day life now, and will forever remain similarly irrelevant in any interaction that I have with Jews in the future.

I’m glad you’ve asked. I would say that things like these pamphlets, which are virtually identical to the ones handed out on the campus I took my Arabic classes at, are a good example of what I mean. Maybe you don’t see anything wrong with them, but personally I wasn’t very surprised that they were completely inaffective and actually inspired derision in those who received them (and promptly threw them away, I might add).

Et cum spiritu tuo.

Lets try this again.

Given that, I could authentically “Hebrew Christians” as a legitimate expression of orthodox Christian faith, but it’s mostly a hypothetical as the only people I’ve met claiming to be “Messianic Jews” have been those “Jews For Jesus” kooks who are well outside the fold of either community.

This appears to be a broad label you gave to the whole bunch, even in light of the story of your actual encounter with them. So sorry if you feel this is taken out of proportion. In the same sense, wouldn’t you find it ridculous if a protestant came into a pew during mass, and because those in the same pew scoffed at him for not kneeling or whatever, he can now call all catholics or orthodox “kooks”?

 

[nsper7]

I just want to make something clear:

Hebrew Catholic are orthodox Catholics who, as part of their personal devotions (perhaps in cooperation with other Hebrew Catholics), live out certain elements of Jewish customs while still remaining within the bounds of Catholicism.

Messianic Jews/Jews for Jesus/etc. are Protestants who live out certain elements of Jewish customs. They are still Protestants though and lack Apostolic Succession and valid Holy Orders. In some ways, they are worse than other more ‘mainline’ Protestants because they feel are the embodiment of their conception of the Early Church.

My biggest complain with Jews for Jesus or other Messianic groups is not that they follow certain Jewish customs, but that they are not Catholic…my biggest complaint against all Protestants.

 

[Lev23]

St.Paul tells us actually who Jews who believe in the Gospel of Jesus Christ are and what they are under.

Romans 11:5-6
So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.

The remnant of Israel. Under Grace.

Out of all the nations, the remnant from this one nation is more scrutinized than any other. Never mind the ones who mingle Law and Grace. It is the Grace based Jewish by birth Christians that seem to get the screws turned on them by the majority.

 

[Lev23]

I just want to make something clear:

Hebrew Catholic are orthodox Catholics who, as part of their personal devotions (perhaps in cooperation with other Hebrew Catholics), live out certain elements of Jewish customs while still remaining within the bounds of Catholicism.

Messianic Jews/Jews for Jesus/etc. are Protestants who live out certain elements of Jewish customs. They are still Protestants though and lack Apostolic Succession and valid Holy Orders. In some ways, they are worse than other more ‘mainline’ Protestants because they feel are the embodiment of their conception of the Early Church.

My biggest complain with Jews for Jesus or other Messianic groups is not that they follow certain Jewish customs, but that they are not Catholic…my biggest complaint against all Protestants.

Jews are Christians if they believe in the Gospel of Jesus Christ in accordance with the scriptures and they are saved by Grace, not by the works of the Law.

 

[nsper7]

Out of all the nations, the remnant from this one nation is more scrutinized than any other. Never mind the ones who mingle Law and Grace. It is the Grace based Jewish by birth Christians that seem to get the screws turned on them by the majority.

As one who was raised in a Conservative Jewish, albeit not very family, and came to faith at 18 (with partial knowledge as an Evangelical type) and then was Confirmed into the Church at 23, I have not felt mistreatment by Christians.

 

[Lev23]

As one who was raised in a Conservative Jewish, albeit not very family, and came to faith at 18 (with partial knowledge as an Evangelical type) and then was Confirmed into the Church at 23, I have not felt mistreatment by Christians.

Christians who are Jews by birth seem to have their faith in Jesus Christ scrutinized more than others. Even in orthodoxy. Roy Schoeman comes to mind.

 

[nsper7]

Christians who are Jews by birth seem to have their faith in Jesus Christ scrutinized more than others. Even in orthodoxy. Roy Schoeman comes to mind.

Who is he? Remember, converts (whether from Judaism or Protestantism or Islam or whatever) may get scrutinized a bit more in order to make sure they don’t synthesize an error with Truth (i.e. a Protestant who believes in Sola Scriptura ends up spreading said error as a Catholic).

 

[dzheremi]

Lets try this again.

Let’s not. I’m not interested in placating you. I’ve given you my reasons for believing as I do. You may not accept them, but there they are. Frankly, I don’t think this group is worth the amount of discussion I’ve already had with you, so…no. Let’s not try this again.