Protestants in Heaven without Confession?

[inkaneer]

Quote:
Originally Posted by inkaneer
As for your vitriolic name calling, it speaks to your character. Can I conclude that you are then inspired by anti-Catholic bigotry and hatred as well? ‘Anti-Orthodox’ I am not but I am not going to pander to the Orthodox either. The Orthodox have a long history of being anti-Latin, anti-Western and anti-Catholic as exemplified when the Orthodox Patriarch refused to pray with Pope JPII. Why would anyone, let alone a Patriarch, refuse to pray with another? Simply, the Orthodox have a taboo about praying with Catholics. That he finally did so at the urgings of those around him was only to avoid a larger public relations nightmare. So keep your name calling to yourself. You lost your cathedral church to Islam, that should be enough to concern you.

For someone who has no problem dishing it out, you sure can’t take it. You really think you’re in a position to lecture anyone about “vitriolic name calling” and to make accusations about someone’s character? You should go take a long, hard look in the mirror. Your hate-filled, anti-anybody-but-Catholics postings are shameful, and are not of the mind of the Church (anyone who has read what the Catechism has to say about the relationship of the Catholic Church to the Orthodox Churches and to Protestants can easily see this is true). Unfortunately, some people who read them will draw incorrect conclusions about the Catholic faith, so they are also a source of scandal, and may actually prevent someone from coming to the Church.

Yes, there are some Orthodox who have a history of being anti-Catholic, anti-Latin, and anti-Western. You should not make assumptions about all Orthodox on the basis of the attitudes and actions of some. There are also plenty of Catholics who are anti-Orthodox, anti-Greek, and anti-Eastern. Furthermore, there has also been within the Catholic Church a history of refusing to pray with non-Catholics. Clearly, this is not the final say on Catholic commitment to reconcilation with the Orthodox, since the actions of the Popes of the last fifty years (at least) show that the Catholic Church has a strong commitment to working towards the restoration of communion between the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church.

Finally, you would be incorrect to conlude that I am motivated by anti-Catholic bigotry and hatred, as you are incorrect to say that I lost my cathedral church to Islam, since I am Catholic, not Orthodox.

My experience with Orthodox is that those who are anti-Latin, anti-Western and anti-Catholic are not in any way a minority. Case in point. Every Orthodox will say they do not believe in purgatory. Of course not. Purgatory is a Latin word and Orthodox will have nothing to do with Latin but then ask them what is Final Theosis" and they will give you essentially the same response as Catholics would about purgatory. But they will vehemently deny they believe in purgatory. This 'holier than thou" attitude extends to their claim of superiority because they can read and understand [they claim] the scriptures in Greek. That, of course, cannot begin to answer the question of why, if they are so blessed by this, did the greatest heresies [except for protestantism] originate in the Eastern Greek speaking church. You would think the ability to read and understand the scriptures in their original language would preclude wrong doctrine from forming. I could go on but I think the best summation of the differences between Catholics and Orthodox is best illustrated by the 2001 meeting in Athens, by the Pope and Archbishop Christodoulos, the head of the Greek Orthodox Church. Christodoulos read a list of “13 offences” of the Roman Catholic Church against the Eastern Orthodox Church since the Great Schism, including the pillaging of Constantinople by crusaders in 1204, and bemoaned the lack of any apology from the Roman Catholic Church, saying “Until now, there has not been heard a single request for pardon” for the “maniacal crusaders of the 13th century.” The Pope responded by saying “For the occasions past and present, when sons and daughters of the Catholic Church have sinned by action or omission against their Orthodox brothers and sisters, may the Lord grant us forgiveness.

Two points here:

1. Don’t ypou think that 800 years is a long time for anyone to be carrying a grudge especially one who proclaims to be a christian. But the Orthodox do it and apparently do it well.
2. There was no apology from the Orthodox for any of their "maniacal’ citizenry especially those who in 1182 massacred 400 Venetian merchants which was the cause for those “maniacal Crusaders” actions 22 years later. Vengeance is never a good thing but sometimes the why of it becomes understandable when it happens. Will the Orthodox ever express an apology to the Catholic church for their acts and omissions? I doubt it, first they have to acknowledge them. Come on guys, you’re supposed to be christian, remember?

 

[RyanBlack]

Quote:
Originally Posted by inkaneer
Truth hurts sometimes, doesn’t it? But the fact remains that the Orthodox lost their cathedral church which the Moslems then desecrated and turned into a mosque. That this occurred shortly after the Orthodox rejected reunification is a fact of history. I see divine retribution there. It would not be the first time God used others to punish His people. The Jews lost two Temples the very same way.

And for which sins of Rome was the loss of all of Africa (which was under Rome) to Islam divine retribution? For which sins of Rome was the loss of numerous churches, including some cathedrals, to Protestantism divine retribution? For which sins of Rome is the slow death of Catholicism in much of Europe that is going on today divine retribution?

Africa was under the Patriarch of Alexandria, and the emperor at Constantinople. It was never under Rome although St. Mark was sent there by Peter from Rome. As such the church there is known as the Coptic Church and was a target for the Eastern church due to the Copts insistence on maintaining independence from the Emperor. But what separates the Coptic Church from the Orthodox is that the Copts never lost their cathedral church to the Islamists.

As for the protestants I think there was some divine retribution involved. Morality suffered during this time with some rogue clergy to include bishops and yes, even popes. But what I always like to point out to my protestant separated brethern is that during this time no pope ever taught error. Protestant theologians have researched and investigated this era extensively in a vain attempt to find one instance when a pope taught error. They found none. Nada, Zip, Zilch, big Zero !!!. Now we can’t say that of our Orthodox brethern now can we? After all, Nestorius was the bishop of Constaninople, was he not? .

Northwest Africa, at the time of its fall to Islam, was Latin Catholic, and connected to the Roman Church, not to the Coptic Church of Alexandria. Again, I ask you, for what sins of the Roman Church was Catholicism in Northwest Africa wiped out by Islam?

 

[paul_c]

Paul,
Nothing comes through more clearly in your conversations with me than a strident defense of your faith with charity, and your sincere love and concern for your fellow Christians.

Thank you,
Jon

I can honestly say the same about you.

 

[paul_c]

Northwest Africa, at the time of its fall to Islam, was Latin Catholic, and connected to the Roman Church, not to the Coptic Church of Alexandria. Again, I ask you, for what sins of the Roman Church was Catholicism in Northwest Africa wiped out by Islam?

I think the point has been made. You don’t need to pursue this point further. This thread is not about the differences in Orthodoxy vs Catholicism. Let it drop and Hopefully Inkaneer will as well. It has not been a productive discussion relative to the salvation of souls

 

[paul_c]

Jon, very well said!

If I may add for myself:

Paul, if you fail to reach me, it is not your fault. You’re a fine ambassador of your faith in Christ.

The idea that “All roads lead to Rome” is and always will be very tempting - speaking only for myself, what holds this Lutheran up short is the idea that salvation doesn’t require the very-good things that the Catholic church is known for. For me it is simple; A hearty church, a bible, a wise pastor, children at the alter-rail, and proper sacraments is all I ask to frame my faith in Christ.

That said, I pray for your continued evangelization - that if you don’t reach me, that you reach others.

Isn’t it obvious that its the Holy Spirit that opens hearts to the saving truth? You are seeking the truth like the rest of us. I pray to God that you find it in your own way. These forums are excellent. I learn so much from them.

 

[RyanBlack]

Quote:
Originally Posted by inkaneer
As for your vitriolic name calling, it speaks to your character. Can I conclude that you are then inspired by anti-Catholic bigotry and hatred as well? ‘Anti-Orthodox’ I am not but I am not going to pander to the Orthodox either. The Orthodox have a long history of being anti-Latin, anti-Western and anti-Catholic as exemplified when the Orthodox Patriarch refused to pray with Pope JPII. Why would anyone, let alone a Patriarch, refuse to pray with another? Simply, the Orthodox have a taboo about praying with Catholics. That he finally did so at the urgings of those around him was only to avoid a larger public relations nightmare. So keep your name calling to yourself. You lost your cathedral church to Islam, that should be enough to concern you.

My experience with Orthodox is that those who are anti-Latin, anti-Western and anti-Catholic are not in any way a minority. Case in point. Every Orthodox will say they do not believe in purgatory. Of course not. Purgatory is a Latin word and Orthodox will have nothing to do with Latin but then ask them what is Final Theosis" and they will give you essentially the same response as Catholics would about purgatory. But they will vehemently deny they believe in purgatory. This 'holier than thou" attitude extends to their claim of superiority because they can read and understand [they claim] the scriptures in Greek. That, of course, cannot begin to answer the question of why, if they are so blessed by this, did the greatest heresies [except for protestantism] originate in the Eastern Greek speaking church. You would think the ability to read and understand the scriptures in their original language would preclude wrong doctrine from forming. I could go on but I think the best summation of the differences between Catholics and Orthodox is best illustrated by the 2001 meeting in Athens, by the Pope and Archbishop Christodoulos, the head of the Greek Orthodox Church. Christodoulos read a list of “13 offences” of the Roman Catholic Church against the Eastern Orthodox Church since the Great Schism, including the pillaging of Constantinople by crusaders in 1204, and bemoaned the lack of any apology from the Roman Catholic Church, saying “Until now, there has not been heard a single request for pardon” for the “maniacal crusaders of the 13th century.” The Pope responded by saying “For the occasions past and present, when sons and daughters of the Catholic Church have sinned by action or omission against their Orthodox brothers and sisters, may the Lord grant us forgiveness.

Two points here:

1. Don’t ypou think that 800 years is a long time for anyone to be carrying a grudge especially one who proclaims to be a christian. But the Orthodox do it and apparently do it well.
2. There was no apology from the Orthodox for any of their "maniacal’ citizenry especially those who in 1182 massacred 400 Venetian merchants which was the cause for those “maniacal Crusaders” actions 22 years later. Vengeance is never a good thing but sometimes the why of it becomes understandable when it happens. Will the Orthodox ever express an apology to the Catholic church for their acts and omissions? I doubt it, first they have to acknowledge them. Come on guys, you’re supposed to be christian, remember?

You complain about Orthodox hostility towards Catholicism, but yet you heep condemnation and hatred upon the Orthodox. A bit incongruous, to put it delicately.

 

[RyanBlack]

I think the point has been made. You don’t need to pursue this point further.

For those who can’t get their historical facts correct (or perhaps don’t want to when it doesn’t fit their own hate-filed agenda), it needed to be pursued further.

 

[paul_c]

For those who can’t get their historical facts correct (or perhaps don’t want to when it doesn’t fit their own hate-filed agenda), it needed to be pursued further.

Perhaps. But it could be done so through PM. Its not productive to the goals of this thread which is to discuss paths to heaven for protestants without confession.
Some one needs to be the bigger man and stop the accusations. Who will it be?

 

[Michael_Francis]

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