Protestants in Heaven without Confession?

[rellanor]

Can Protestants go to Heaven without Confession?

If so, then what is the purpose of having confession if justification can be accomplished without Confession?

Especially so with Mortal Sins… If I commit a Mortal sin, feel remorse and decide I need to go to confession ASAP, and then die before getting there, I would still go to Heaven because I had every intention of heart change and confession before the priest.

Therefore it seems only necessary to have a heart change and not confession/absolution from a priest of ones sins?

Obviously if my third paragraphs assumption is incorrect then what I’m saying falls apart.

Also how is a protestant justified if he/she commits a mortal sin? Or are they not? If that is so it makes me feel like a lot of Protestants are going to Hell…

Confused… Help.

 

[inkaneer]

The Church is designed by God to lead people to Heaven, but since everyone does not have the same opportunity to be led by the Church into Heaven then there are exceptions. Just like those who have never had the opportunity to hear about Christ are judged by God with that in mind, and they are judged in a way that by God’s all-knowing power He is able to determine if they would have followed Him had they been given the chance. And God also looks at the way that they have responded to Him with what little has been revealed to them.

That being said, those who have had a portion of the Gospel revealed to them and has followed Him with all their heart, then God being a just Judge will judge them based on what they understand and respond to. But getting to Heaven with less Sacraments and understanding is not a blessing but a loss because the Sacraments and the Church is something precious and from God. Sure they get to Heaven but they miss out on extra blessings in this life. Its sort of like having a child. You could have gone through life never having that child and not knowing life with him or her, but what a loss to think of never having that child in your life! What a vacant part of Chrisitianity to go through life without the Sacraments!

That is alll well and good but you did not mention sin and its remission. Without remission of sin no one gets to heaven. So how do protestants have their sins remitted without sacramental confession?

 

[COPLAND_3]

That is alll well and good but you did not mention sin and its remission. Without remission of sin no one gets to heaven. So how do protestants have their sins remitted without sacramental confession?

Unless this has been articulated by the Church, then my impression is that since there is a such thing as Baptism by desire where God is able by His all-knowing power to determine if someone would have gotten baptized if given the chance, then since forgiveness and cleansing happens at times without the Sacrament of Baptism, then would not a person be judged by God in a similar fashion who has not received the Sacrament of Confession without a fault of their own?

I am not talking about Protestants who outright reject the Sacrament, but those who are as faithful with all their hearts and follow God to the best of their ability but have never been introduced to Catholicism any way other than the half-hearted worldly Catholics that we find ourselves having to battle the sterotypes they have created. I know plenty of very holy Protestants who have a childlike faith and do the best they can. I cannot see a just God sending one like that to Hell.

My point is that there are exceptions. Personally I am thankful that Im not relying on an exception and ignorance, I am thankful that God has revealed to me the Catholic Church and Her beauty, but not everyone has been given the same advantages as I have.

 

[Azygos]

That is alll well and good but you did not mention sin and its remission. Without remission of sin no one gets to heaven. So how do protestants have their sins remitted without sacramental confession?

Purgatory…

 

[inkaneer]

Unless this has been articulated by the Church, then my impression is that since there is a such thing as Baptism by desire where God is able by His all-knowing power to determine if someone would have gotten baptized if given the chance, then since forgiveness and cleansing happens at times without the Sacrament of Baptism, then would not a person be judged by God in a similar fashion who has not received the Sacrament of Confession without a fault of their own?

I am not talking about Protestants who outright reject the Sacrament, but those who are as faithful with all their hearts and follow God to the best of their ability but have never been introduced to Catholicism any way other than the half-hearted worldly Catholics that we find ourselves having to battle the sterotypes they have created. I know plenty of very holy Protestants who have a childlike faith and do the best they can. I cannot see a just God sending one like that to Hell.

My point is that there are exceptions. Personally I am thankful that Im not relying on an exception and ignorance, I am thankful that God has revealed to me the Catholic Church and Her beauty, but not everyone has been given the same advantages as I have.

But protestants are baptized and their baptism is recognized as valid by the church. That is, if it is done according to the Trinitarian formula. Now once baptized you cannot be rebaptized either by water or desire. Baptism by blood [martyrdom] is still a viable possibility. Yet most protestants do not die a martyrs death. So how do they deal with sin in their lives after baptism without sacramental confession? Now without getting into a long multi post explanation, let me say that the doctrine of Extra Ecclesia Nolo Salus [Outside the Church there is no salvation] applies here. And while we will agree that protestants are not totally outside the church they also are not totally inside it either. When it comes to the forgiveness of sin through sacramental confession they are outside the church so sin is a very big problem in protestantism and the protestant saying that Jesus nailed sin to the cross doesn’t even begin to address the problem.

 

[inkaneer]

Quote:
Originally Posted by inkaneer
That is alll well and good but you did not mention sin and its remission. Without remission of sin no one gets to heaven. So how do protestants have their sins remitted without sacramental confession?

Purgatory…

Fine, for venial sin but how about mortal sin? Souls with mortal sin only wish they could suffer in the fires of purgatory rather than the fires of hell.

 

[COPLAND_3]

But protestants are baptized and their baptism is recognized as valid by the church. That is, if it is done according to the Trinitarian formula. Now once baptized you cannot be rebaptized either by water or desire. Baptism by blood [martyrdom] is still a viable possibility. Yet most protestants do not die a martyrs death. So how do they deal with sin in their lives after baptism without sacramental confession? Now without getting into a long multi post explanation, let me say that the doctrine of Extra Ecclesia Nolo Salus [Outside the Church there is no salvation] applies here. And while we will agree that protestants are not totally outside the church they also are not totally inside it either. When it comes to the forgiveness of sin through sacramental confession they are outside the church so sin is a very big problem in protestantism and the protestant saying that Jesus nailed sin to the cross doesn’t even begin to address the problem.

What you are saaying I agree with, and I have not explained anything contrary to it. What I am saying and have been saying is that if there is a Baptism of desire for those exceptions of ignorance and lack of opportunity, then it seems like that exception can be applied to confession. Some Protestants have not been fairly introduced to Catholicism but would follow the truth if given an opportunity. Between the lack of Catholic zeal to evangelize and the indoctrination of many Protestant sects, some people just dont have a fair introduction.

 

[mab23]

Okay, first off, if you commit a mortal sin and die, you will go to Hell unless you have perfect contrition, which is when you are sorry for your sins because you love God. Perfect contrition also includes a desire to go to confession as soon as possible. However, you don’t know if you have perfect contrition, which is why you MUST go to confession whenever you commit a mortal sin.

Now, about the Protestant thing, it is possible for Protestants to go to heaven without going to confession if they either have perfect contrition OR if they had invincible ignorance and lived their lives as best they could. Invincible ignorance is when someone does not know the Catholic Church is the true church through no fault of their own.

Oh, and another thing. If someone who commits a mortal sin doesn’t have perfect contrition, but imperfect contrition, which is being sorry for your sins because you fear the punishment or you are disgusted by the sin, and they intended to confess their mortal sins but dies before they had a chance to confess, then we can only hope that since God isn’t bound by the sacraments, in his great mercy he will forgive the person.

You cannot say this with absolute certainty as if it were a fact -

Only God decides this matter, only God knows our soul and heart and will Judge us accordingly

just wanted to say that

 

[shocktrooper]

You cannot say this with absolute certainty as if it were a fact -

Only God decides this matter, only God knows our soul and heart and will Judge us accordingly

just wanted to say that

Objectively speaking, it can be said that way. Mortal Sin destroys charity in the heart and brakes the relationship with God, hence the need for reconciliation. If one dies outside the grace of God, they go to “hell”. That is the Church’s teaching.

God may not be bound by everything but He is bound by His Word, the Truth, so if He says something to be true, then it can’t change.

 

[shocktrooper]

Can Protestants go to Heaven without Confession?

If so, then what is the purpose of having confession if justification can be accomplished without Confession?

Especially so with Mortal Sins… If I commit a Mortal sin, feel remorse and decide I need to go to confession ASAP, and then die before getting there, I would still go to Heaven because I had every intention of heart change and confession before the priest.

Therefore it seems only necessary to have a heart change and not confession/absolution from a priest of ones sins?

Obviously if my third paragraphs assumption is incorrect then what I’m saying falls apart.

Also how is a protestant justified if he/she commits a mortal sin? Or are they not? If that is so it makes me feel like a lot of Protestants are going to Hell…

Confused… Help.

I share your thoughts and really don’t have an answer. I like to think they will be dealt with mercifully but the Church also teaches that the mercy of God ends at death where the Justice of God begins.

My personal thought on properly baptized non-Catholic Christians is that the grace received at baptism would be sufficient for them to fully enter the Catholic Church. Protestantism is rooted in rebellion and I can’t see how that sits well with God, though I submit to His judgment on that. I know there are those that grow up in the Protestant faith after being born into it, but at some point I think they will be held accountable for adhering to a heretical or schismatic faith, either by laziness, or by not wanting to leave their comfort zone, or by continuous denial of authority in God and His Church.

 

[Azygos]

Quote:
Originally Posted by inkaneer
That is alll well and good but you did not mention sin and its remission. Without remission of sin no one gets to heaven. So how do protestants have their sins remitted without sacramental confession?

Fine, for venial sin but how about mortal sin? Souls with mortal sin only wish they could suffer in the fires of purgatory rather than the fires of hell.

What about invincible ignorance… We do not know which souls will be allowed in purgatory and we can only speculate on which souls go to hell. The theology is very deep and we cannot pretend to know how God is going to judge each persons ignorance.

 

[Azygos]

I could give you a hypothetical story of a man stranded on an island sense birth with no religions around. Lets say he ends up worshiping an unknown God. How does this person get his sins remitted?

What about those millions of people who have never even heard the gospel? How do they get their sins remitted. Seems to me this is a theological question beyond our understanding and God has to be the judge.

I have faith in purgatory and hell. I actually find comfort in the fact that purgatory exist or else most people would be damned. Especially those non-catholic Christians. As it stands the Church teaches they are our brethren and I do believe however that by their ignorance it would only seem fair that they enter purgatory. Now if they willingly suppress the Truth and teach bad things about the Church (Like a Protestant Minister) then I would be a little worried. I’m not talking about those so called Christians who live a very very sinful lifestyle either (The ones promoting sin and homosexuality, madness). I’m talking about the ones who love God and try to live the way God wants them to (by the commandments in the bible). If they are truly ignorant then why would anyone assume they wouldn’t be given a chance at redemption.

 

[wondrousgnat]

At my wife’s Lutheran (ELCA) church the pastors stand up during the services and announce that all sins are forgiven because they have the authority to do so. Since nobody confessed any sin nor seems to feel any guilt I believe this is a horrible disservice.

 

[Azygos]

Besides everything we are talking about is just another reason to try to show them the Truth. As I fear God and worry about my own soul. I really worry about those souls outside the Church including protestants. I wouldn’t want to be in their shoes and since I know what it is to fear God then I will try to remove some of those roadblocks to Catholicism. Whenever I get a chance of course.

 

[Azygos]

At my wife’s Lutheran (ELCA) church the pastors stand up during the services and announce that all sins are forgiven because they have the authority to do so. Since nobody confessed any sin nor seems to feel any guilt I believe this is a horrible disservice.

I love to take things to the extreme. You could place a seed of doubt by putting something like this in her mind. Give her a hypothetical story like this. If a person goes out and murders another person. This hypothetical person then enters your Church and the pastor says all sins are forgiven. Are the murderers sins forgiven too? More specifically the sin of murder?

While she may not know what to say or even give you a cop out answer. It doesn’t matter and I wouldn’t argue with her. The thought will be in her mind and it should make her doubt. Then just maybe you can start presenting truth to her over time. My dad has to constantly remind me. Feed them milk they are like babies and cannot take the whole truth all at once.

 

[Holly3278]

The LCMS Church has confession and absolution! Good thing too

Lutheran sacraments are not valid because Lutheran priests/ministers are not validly ordained.

 

[JonNC]

Lutheran sacraments are not valid because Lutheran priests/ministers are not validly ordained.

This, of course, is the Catholic position, and of course, Lutherans disagree. And, its an issue that won’t be resolved unty reconciliation between us.

Thoughtfully, however, this:
nccbuscc.org/seia/koinonia.shtml

1. Catholic judgment on the authenticity of Lutheran ministry need not be of an all-or-nothing nature. The Decree on Ecumenism of Vatican II distinguished between relationships of full ecclesiastical communion and those of imperfect communion to reflect the varying degrees of differences with the Catholic Church.(164) The communion of these separated communities with the Catholic Church is real, even though it is imperfect. Furthermore, the decree positively affirmed:

Our separated brothers and sisters also celebrate many sacred actions of the Christian religion. These most certainly can truly engender a life of grace in ways that vary according to the condition of each church or community, and must be held capable of giving access to that communion in which is salvation.(165)

Commenting on this point, Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, prefect of the Congregation on the Doctrine of the Faith, wrote in 1993 to Bavarian Lutheran bishop Johannes Hanselmann:

I count among the most important results of the ecumenical dialogues the insight that the issue of the eucharist cannot be narrowed to the problem of ‘validity.’ Even a theology oriented to the concept of succession, such as that which holds in the Catholic and in the Orthodox church, need not in any way deny the salvation-granting presence of the Lord [Heilschaffende Gegenwart des Herrn] in a Lutheran [evangelische] Lord’s Supper.(166)
If the actions of Lutheran pastors can be described by Catholics as “sacred actions” that “can truly engender a life of grace,” if communities served by such ministers give “access to that communion in which is salvation,” and if at a eucharist at which a Lutheran pastor presides is to be found “the salvation-granting presence of the Lord,” then Lutheran churches cannot be said simply to lack the ministry given to the church by Christ and the Spirit. In acknowledging the imperfect koinonia between our communities and the access to grace through the ministries of these communities, we also acknowledge a real although imperfect koinonia between our ministries.

1. Ecumenical understanding would be furthered if in official Roman Catholic documents Vatican II’s reference to defectus in the sacrament of Order among “ecclesial communities” were translated by such words as “defect” or “deficiency.”(167) As Walter Cardinal Kasper has stated: “On material grounds [aus der Sachlogik], and not merely on the basis of the word usage of the Council, it becomes clear that defectus ordinis does not signify a complete absence, but rather a deficiency [Mangel] in the full form of the office.”(168) Translations of defectus as “lack” misleadingly imply the simple absence of the reality of ordination. Translation as “defect” or “deficiency” would be consistent with the sort of real but imperfect recognition of ministries proposed above. While short of full recognition, such partial recognition would provide the basis for first steps toward a reconciliation of ministries as envisioned, e.g., in the international Roman Catholic-Lutheran statement Facing Unity.(169)

109.** We recommend that Roman Catholic criteria for assessing authentic ministry include attention to a ministry’s faithfulness to the gospel and its service to the communion of the church, and that defectus ordinis as applied to Lutheran ministries be translated as “deficiency” rather than “lack.”**

The POV of the USCCB.

Jon

 

[Azygos]

Sounds like a cop out. I would have to ask you what your point is? I also have to ask you if you believe the body and blood of Jesus is present in communion. If so then by what authority? If ordinary people (Lacking Valid Holy Orders) can just make Jesus present then why can’t I make Jesus present in a piece of bread at my house? Why can’t a devil worshiper make Jesus present? What is there to differentiate between who can actually do a valid communion (Making the Body and Blood of Jesus be Present) and who can not do a valid communion? If you say a Minister then I would have to ask you where did this minister get his Authority? Did someone just proclaim him a minister one day… If that’s the case then why can’t I proclaim myself a minister so that I can be authorized to make Jesus present. If you say a Church. Then what does it take to make a valid Church. Can I just establish my own Church and make the Body and Blood present?

John 6:53
53 Jesus said to them, "Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you.

 

[JonNC]

Sounds like a cop out. I would have to ask you what your point is? I also have to ask you if you believe the body and blood of Jesus is present in communion. If so then by what authority? If ordinary people (Lacking Valid Holy Orders) can just make Jesus present then why can’t I make Jesus present in a piece of bread at my house? Why can’t a devil worshiper make Jesus present? What is there to differentiate between who can actually do a valid communion (Making the Body and Blood of Jesus be Present) and who can not do a valid communion? If you say a Minister then I would have to ask you where did this minister get his Authority? Did someone just proclaim him a minister one day… If that’s the case then why can’t I proclaim myself a minister so that I can be authorized to make Jesus present. If you say a Church. Then what does it take to make a valid Church. Can I just establish my own Church and make the Body and Blood present?

John 6:53
53 Jesus said to them, "Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you.

I assume this is meant for me. If you think the USCCB is copping out, take it up with them.

Jon

 

[Azygos]

I assume this is meant for me. If you think the USCCB is copping out, take it up with them.

Jon

Avoid avoid avoid.

I noticed you didn’t try to answer a single one of my questions.