Well, ok. That is a bit more clear. I find myself a little in the middle between what you are saying, and what Nicea has said:
Scripture and the Church are particularly linked, and both are gifts of God.
Jon
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Jon
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Roy5
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No one is saying God is nor present in the Eucharist. If God is everywhere, that surely must include the Eucharist. I simply question whether God is 'more present' in the Eucharist than he is with each of us everywhere and everyday.
As for a physical presence, that is a key Catholic teaching. Fine. "Think and let think." I guess I have too influenced by science and/or reason, or perhaps I am too resistant to paganism infecting my Christian faith, but I am content to believe the promise that God is everywhere. Jesus often spoke in metaphors: I am the Good Shepherd, I am the vine, I am the door, etc. Those who want to believe in transubstantiation logically would adore the Eucharist. Others do not. As simple as that.
I personally don't think it's essential that everyone believe or think in a 'follow this line or belong to this church or else' position. I need and treasure the freedom to think freely and follow my conscience. Others are ready to give over their belief system to a church, to a book, or to some preacher. Okay with me. If it provides comfort, go for it. I am content to have a simple faith that this mammoth, majestic, mysterious and miraculous world was created by God. a God of love, a God who loves all humankind regardless of creed, color, class, country or culture, a God who certainly would not be so cruel and wrathful as to send anyone to hell because they didn't agree on matters of doctrine.
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AlwaysCurious
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This mindset has always puzzled me a little (I’m not singling you out, Roy5, I see this a lot). “God is present everywhere, so if he’s present in the Eucharist too, then…so what?
”It makes me wonder what they would do if Jesus showed up in person at their front door. Would they shrug and turn away–after all, Jesus is just as “present” elsewhere in the house, who cares if he’s right there in front of you and available to the senses? Or would they fall on their faces in wonder, because even though God is spiritually omnipresent…manalive, here he is RIGHT IN FRONT OF ME!?
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dsully
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I am coming back to this basic truth myself. I need to start with the fundamental premise that God is love, which, of course, is a biblical doctrine, and one that Catholic Church has done well to emphasize in a lot of its teaching. And, of course, the church (Catholic or otherwise) is at its best when it reflects God’s lack of partiality. As for judgement? I think we have to believe that it will come, but probably not on the basis of whether we have agreed with Council of Trent or the writings of the Reformation, but on the basis of whether we have loved God with all of our heart, mind, soul, and strength and whether we have loved our neighbor as ourselves. And, certainly, God is always there with his grace to wash us clean and make us new when we fall. He loves us more than we love ourselves, Him, or our neighbor. According to Mother Theresa’s description memorable description of the Christian faith, “You (He) did it to me.”
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Nicea325
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No offense,but your position does seem to limit God. God has no limitations and I am very confident He can be “present” anywhere and with the same amount of “presence” if you know what I mean? I have no reason to question God’s abilities.
It is not a question of science or reason,but of faith. Read 1 Cor 2:6-16. Paganism? Do yu honestly believe the teaching of the Real Presence is pagan?
But those examples used against the Real Presence are faulty. When Jesus said He was the vine or door does scripture give an example of people taking Him literally as being a door or vine? More important, Jesus does not place His hand on a vine or door and bless it,break it and tell people to eat it. As simple as that!
Sorry,but I think you are walking on thin ice with such a “freedom” or belief. Lucifer did not believe He had to follow God’s path or Will and look where Luicfer ended up? No…you are not the Devil.
Okay,but still does not change the fact God is ONE and He founded ONE church…not an array of flavors suited to satisfy our individual taste buds.
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racing59
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Nicea325 that is what is revealed to you. What God has revealed to me is Jesus Christ and the Church are one, past, present,ansd future.( Eph.5:-22-35) God revealed the Church in Eden, Adam and Eve rejected it and handed domion over to Satan. God revealed it with the Solomons Temple for all the world. But Solomon charge the outsiders 666 gold talents(all in Scripture Book of Kings) to come and worhip there.The Church was revealed through Moses by Isreal being God’s Chosen,but they rejected after excepting,then the Law came. Jesus came to take the Curse of Adam from mankind. Those that except Jesus are his body the Church. The Church is not about a building it is about our Faith in Jesus Christ, God’s Word wrapped in flesh. The Bible is God’s revelation to the World, of his Word, his Son Jesus Christ. The Word exsist before , early Christian, before the NT, Jesus was revealed in the OT, early Christian knew this. In my oppion you can not say the Bible(the Word of God) came after the Church.That is not what God has showed me through revelation in the Word.
Peace
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dsully
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That said, I think I do believe in the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist
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Nicea325
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racing59:
Where does Jesus give precedence of the Bible over His Church? Where does the NT teach the Church of Christ was founded from the Bible,because the Bible came first? God has revealed it to you and the world that He left and founded His Church. Read history of the Bible. The Bible is a byproduct of the church,not vice versa. The belief the Bible came before the church is a false premise.
Peace
No! That is what Jesus Himself revealed,read your Bible again. Jesus did not reveal it to me alone,but to His 12 long before me and to the world. Second, if you are denying that Jesus came to found His Church,then you are either reading the wrong Bible or have a poor understanding.
Yes the Bible is full of types or foreshadowing of better things to come-yes I agree.
I never said the Church was only a building and the Catholic Church has never taught such a false belief. Yes the ONE VOLUME Bible is God’s revelation given to the world-through His Church. Sorry but you are wrong, the one volume Bible you read came after His Church. Show me one verse where Jesus came to write a Bible and hand out Bibles before Ascending back to Heaven?
Where does Jesus give precedence of the Bible over His Church? Where does the NT teach the Church of Christ was founded from the Bible,because the Bible came first? God has revealed it to you and the world that He left and founded His Church. Read history of the Bible. The Bible is a byproduct of the church,not vice versa. The belief the Bible came before the church is a false premise.
Peace
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dsully
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Nicea, I totally track with what you’re saying, but, to be fair, I think what he means is that Scriptures (though in incomplete form) did exist before the Church. That is, Ancient Israel had Scriptures dating back, perhaps, to the time of Moses and Joshua. And these Scriptures are, biblically speaking, God-breathed (unless you think that only the completed Bible is inspired).
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Nicea325
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Well yes…the OT scriptures existed before the NT church…yes. But where does the OT scriptures teach God’s Word is binded to** written words alone**? However, the problem I encounter with many Bible-only folks is the belief that the church developed out of the Bible and that my friend is false. Likewise, the one volume Bible we have today did in fact come after Christ Church-way after His Ascension. Christ founded His Church and the NT writings came after its foundation. The NT writings were being written during the existence of Christ Church. Get my point?
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racing59
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You are right there is a misunderstanding here. You veiw the Bible as words on a page, I view the Bible as the word of God, Jesus Christ,but only one side of Jesus.It can only be understood throuygh the Holy Spirit in our spirit. Jesus and the Church are one, they have always existed because Adam was created in the image and likeness of God almighty. God dwelt with Adam and Eve in Eden, sorry that is the Church. the Tree(the Cross) was there too in the second tree, the Tree of Life(Not the same as the Tree of knowledge of good and Evil) Gen2:9, you need to read, there where two tree in thne center of the garden. The Holy Spirit breath God’s spirit into man. The Trinity was present in Eden. John 1:1-3 Jesus, the Word, and God are the same. Jesus exsist before the NT. In fact look up the Hebrew Tora of Genesis 1:1 all things were created through the Alpha and omega(In Greek) teeph in Hebrew it is there. Jesus always existed; therefore the Church always existed. He perfected the Church by the Cross, before there were human mediators,because of Adams fall. To say that Jesus Christ and his Church did not exist in the OT is a rejection of God’s Word. I think you should pray to the Holy Spirit and read the OT, ecpecially Genesis chap. 1-3. Prov.3 Wisdom is a Tree of Life. Jesus died on a Tree(The Cross) Jesus is part of the God head, all things were created through him. Christ cleans the His Bride the Church with his Blood, not established it. It always has existed in Heaven and was established in the guarden. Adam gave it over to Satan. Jesus came to change the Church from the OT Law, by his Blood. No all we have to do is recieve, it is not by any thing I can do. I am part of the Church, the Rightousness of Jesus through his Blood shed on the Cross. “It is Finished” the Church is clean by the Blood of Jesus! That is what Scripture says! Read deeper with the help of the Holy Spirit, Paul wrote most the NT, the Church was reveled to him by studying the OT.
Peace
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dsully
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No, of course not. The church was formed out of the preaching of the Apostles after the Holy Spirit came upon them at Pentecost. They proclaimed the gospel, baptized believers, and oversaw the fellowship.
<<Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called “the uncircumcision” by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands—remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility. And he came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near. For through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father. So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, in whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. In him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit. (Ephesians 2:11-22 ESV) >>
They Apostles preached Christ as the fulfillment of the Scriptures. In the apostolic age, some of the letters of the Apostles were considered Scripture. Finally, the Church decided on a canon, the Bible. But the early church was growing and using Scripture in teaching and worship long before the Church decided on a fixed canon, no?
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Nicea325
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racing59:
Please quote me where I said the Bible is merely words on a page?
Yes.
Indeed, but He incarnated as man to found His “new” Church on earth for the sinners,precisely why he left it to us.
I know what Scripture says…and why? Because the Church has had the scriptures and has studied them for centuries and is merely parroting what Christ bestowed on His Church.
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Nicea325
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dsully:
I think it would be more correct to state the church developed with the Apostles? Remember Christ founded the Church here on earth,thus the Apostles simply carried out Christ mission.
Indeed the church used scripture,but also taught orally as well. Likewise,while scripture was being used and read to the masses,there still wasn’t a compiled and uniformed Bible,thus many letters were in circulation.
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crimsonglory
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In one word: yes.
God is omnipresent (He is everywhere).
And since Jesus is fully God, than naturally He is acknowledged as being present.
Colossians 2:9 comes to mind.
I’m exploring the concept of the Catholic faith, and quite ironically, as a Protestant, I have no trouble believing in the Host being physically present. I really don’t understand the great extent of division between Catholics and Protestants.
God is omnipresent (He is everywhere).
And since Jesus is fully God, than naturally He is acknowledged as being present.
Colossians 2:9 comes to mind.
I’m exploring the concept of the Catholic faith, and quite ironically, as a Protestant, I have no trouble believing in the Host being physically present. I really don’t understand the great extent of division between Catholics and Protestants.
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Trishie
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Jesus Himself said:
“where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.” Matthew 18:20
Jesus speaks only the truth.
Jesus is certainly with Protestants who are present at their worship!
We have His word for that.
“where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.” Matthew 18:20
Jesus speaks only the truth.
Jesus is certainly with Protestants who are present at their worship!
We have His word for that.
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CMatt25
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Elizabeth502
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You obviously are, because you’re setting up a weird competition to oppose me specifically. And the problem is, you used Webster’s Dictionary, a secular dictionary, to “argue” with me and score points. I’m talking theology, not secular definitions. The question of this thread is a theological question, not a secular question. I’m getting particular about the theology of Christ’s presence, which is the issue here.
So if you’re going to play argument games with people (while claiming you are not doing so), use the correct terminology and concepts within the system being discussed. In this case, it’s theology.
No. You still don’t get this. It’s not based on the believers’ frame of mind which generates the presence of Christ, but in Christ’s desire/decision/activity, which can occur regardless of the knowledge level and belief level of the person who ends up being Christ’s instrument.
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Elizabeth502
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Thanks, Trishie. Since Mt 18:20 was mentioned much earlier, I didn’t repeat the quote when replying, but any Christian – which would include any Catholic – should be aware of it.
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racing59
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I wish to publicly appologize you never said " Bible is words on a page" That came out wrong.You did say that the Church came first,then the Bible, true? I believe the Canon came later all the writtings were put together, but the Tora exist before then. I do disagree with the fact that RCR established the Bible. I believe the Bible is the written Word of God(Jesus), written down by men through the Holy Spirit to Revievial God’s plan for mankind, because we couldn’t get it right on our own. I do diagree that the New Covenant established a new Church, I believe it washed the Church that had been establish in Israel.I don’t believe the Apostalic Age ended with the Apostles. I believe when can all achieve to be Apostles through the power of the Holy Spirit. Elijiah and Elishia were prime examples in the OT. I understand why you believe what you do, I’m not here to try to change you, I just disagree with you. Once again I appologize for a statement you never made and in reflection I wish I had not posted.
Peace and God Bless
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